Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Rhossydd on May 01, 2010, 10:48:35 am
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The new print dialogue in PS CS5 no longer contains a ‘no colour management’ option. When profiling targets need to be printed, they need to be passed with no colour management to the driver.
Adobe have published a technote http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html (http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html) detailing some work rounds. The technote says it applies not only to Mac OSX, which I know has issues with untagged files, but also to Windows too.
Can someone explain why just using the ‘let printer manage colours’ option isn’t an easier choice for printing untagged files through CS5 on Windows systems ?
From what I can see and measure this option just passes the data through unchanged. Am I missing something here ?
Thanks
Paul
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It was removed to make the dialog easier for the masses (few need to print using No Color Management) and because this kind of print path has in the past been problematic for a number of reasons. Adobe will release a product for free to allow you to print said untagged targets in the future. In the meantime you can print using an older version of Photoshop or simply use the "null" profile technique whereby you assign a working space (say Adobe RGB (1998)) and in the Color Management option (Let Photoshop Manage Color), select the same profile from the list.
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It was removed to make the dialog easier for the masses (few need to print using No Color Management)
Yes, I understand all that, especially given the Mac OSX issues, but what's wrong with passing the data to the printer under 'let printer manage colours' on Windows systems ?
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I've never printed from Photoshop's dialog (I either use the Canon plug-in or QImage), and frankly I find the options a little bit confusing. In CS4 how would selecting "No Color Management" be different from selecting "Printer Color Management" as long as the printer driver allows you to set color management to "none"? I notice that with the "Printer Manages Colors" option, rendering intent is still enabled as a choice which doesn't make much sense to me at all, since I would think you'd be setting options like that in the driver for that mode.
Looking at the dialog makes me glad I never use it. I'll stick to the Canon plug-in, thank you.
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Selecting Printer Manages Colour still provides a colour space reference to the printer driver (or if you don't, the printer driver will make an assumption about the colour space - typically either sRGB or Adobe RGB depending on driver settings). It's quite different to having No Colour Management.
The dialogue is quite easy (and much easier now):
1. If you want to use a colour managed workflow, choose Photoshop Manages Colour, choose your ICC profile for your printer/paper combination, choose your rendering intent and then in your driver turn off all colour management.
2. If you want your printer driver to determine colour output, choose Printer Manages Colour and go into your driver and set things the way you want.
3. If you want to print targets for profile creation, use the utility which will be released through Adobe Labs.
For Photographers looking to acheive the best results, I would strongly recommend option 1 or using a 3rd party option such as the Canon plugin or Qimage or a RIP etc.
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Selecting Printer Manages Colour still provides a colour space reference to the printer driver (or if you don't, the printer driver will make an assumption about the colour space - typically either sRGB or Adobe RGB depending on driver settings). It's quite different to having No Colour Management.
The dialogue is quite easy (and much easier now)
That's all well and good, but if Photoshop is just passing the tagged document to the printer without modification, having a rendering intent option doesn't make much sense, hence my confusion. Indeed, according to this post (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=34090&view=findpost&p=278465) the rendering intention option has no effect in this scenario. The fact that it's enabled is misleading.
3. If you want to print targets for profile creation, use the utility which will be released through Adobe Labs.
But it's not available yet, is it?
And it seems to me that option 2 _should_ work as well for printing targets, as long as color management in the print driver is also disabled. Otherwise that would mean Photoshop is doing something it shouldn't be.
For Photographers looking to acheive the best results, I would strongly recommend option 1 or using a 3rd party option such as the Canon plugin or Qimage or a RIP etc.
Generally speaking I would agree. The two obvious exceptions are printing profile targets and using the monochrome mode that some print drivers have.
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But it's not available yet, is it?
No, it is not.
And it seems to me that option 2 _should_ work as well for printing targets, as long as color management in the print driver is also disabled. Otherwise that would mean Photoshop is doing something it shouldn't be.
Depends on the platform. On OS X, for example, this is not true. If you use printer color management on OS X, the driver must have color management enabled, otherwise the OS will do the color transform.
There are very distinct printer paths between Printer Manages, Photoshop Manages, and No Color Management. In some specific cases, you'll find overlaps, and hence using one is no different than using another. But in other specific cases, they all have necessarily different behaviors.
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Why not just hide the functionality behind an alt-key modifier or something, so the average user can't trip over it?
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Depends on the platform.
I was specific in the original question that I was asking about Windows systems, I appreciate the Mac issues that may have brought about this change in PS.
As far as I can see and measure using 'printer manages colour' will work in the same way 'no colour management' did before on Windows systems. There seems absolutely no change in output regardless of rendering intent or working space chosen(file remains untagged, so no behind the scenes tagging seems to be happening).
Paul
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PS is a cross platform app, though, so for consistency it makes sense to make it the same in both versions.
The problem with your proposed method is consistency. If you choose, for example, to send ProPhoto data to the driver, you may not get the results you expect. The file is not untagged when you use Printer Manages Colour, but if your driver is in default it's expecting sRGB or if you choose Adobe RGB in the driver and send that, then it remains consistent. If you make an incorrect choice in the driver, you will get varying results.
As for hiding the functionality, the idea was to once and for all remove an option that the vast majority of users don't need and to make it more robust to deal with changes in the printing path in either OS (because you have a small, lightweight app to update rather than PS).
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Phil's right.
I was unclear in my original post. By "platform" I meant not only the OS, but OS version, print API version, printer model, printer driver, etc. Basically the printing system when considered as a whole. The treating of tagged vs untagged data is one important distinction, in some cases. Discrepancies between incoming color data (e.g., ProPhoto) versus expected or supported color space encodings (e.g., sRGB or Adobe RGB) is another, in some cases. These distinctions apply to both Mac and Windows operating systems.
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As for hiding the functionality, the idea was to once and for all remove an option that the vast majority of users don't need and to make it more robust to deal with changes in the printing path in either OS (because you have a small, lightweight app to update rather than PS).
I don't buy that. I think more and more users are probably running into this, now that profiling tools such as Colormunki have made printer profiling so much more affordable. It's not like "No Color Management" was the default choice, or even a difficult concept to understand. Reading between the lines it seems like the real reason it was removed is because Apple screwed the pooch by making this option not behave the way it should on recent versions of their OS. Personally, I hate the "Trust us, we know what's best for you" arrogance that results in taking away flexibility/functionality in the name of usability.
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I don't buy that. I think more and more users are probably running into this, now that profiling tools such as Colormunki have made printer profiling so much more affordable. It's not like "No Color Management" was the default choice, or even a difficult concept to understand. Reading between the lines it seems like the real reason it was removed is because Apple screwed the pooch by making this option not behave the way it should on recent versions of their OS. Personally, I hate the "Trust us, we know what's best for you" arrogance that results in taking away flexibility/functionality in the name of usability.
I don't believe that was even an Apple screwup. It seems that only some Epson drivers had this issue. The new Epson 8.19 drivers for the 9600 do not have this problem, the Canon iPF drivers never had this problem.
Adobe taking this option out to accommodate some OLD incorrectly written printer drivers is ridiculous.
Doyle
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Personally, I hate the "Trust us, we know what's best for you" arrogance that results in taking away flexibility/functionality in the name of usability.
I agree with you - it's not good system development policy. Whatever the size of the constituency for printing profile targets, the functionality to do it properly and easily should be there, and if it confuses some people, so be it - all they have to do is a bit of reading to sort it out for themselves.
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Not all current print drivers handle "no color management" correctly with the Cocoa/Quartz print path. The issue is not limited to older drivers for older, discontinued models.
To be clear, the Adobe tool to print profile targets is going to be supplied as a free download. This isn't done with the intent of "we know what's best for you." Adobe believes this is the best long-term approach to serving the needs of users who build their own printer profiles, for a number of technical, practical, and political reasons.
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Not all current print drivers handle "no color management" correctly with the Cocoa/Quartz print path. The issue is not limited to older drivers for older, discontinued models.
To be clear, the Adobe tool to print profile targets is going to be supplied as a free download. This isn't done with the intent of "we know what's best for you." Adobe believes this is the best long-term approach to serving the needs of users who build their own printer profiles, for a number of technical, practical, and political reasons.
I like that idea - sometimes I'm building profiles for my friends, not everyone has Photoshop - so a free, simple tool to print profile targets sounds great for me.
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These distinctions apply to both Mac and Windows operating systems.
Could you give an example of what WINDOWS systems/drivers are effected by this please ?
I've now tried a lot of variables(OSs, drivers etc) here, but still get identical results when printing untagged targets with 'printer manges colour' in PS CS5 when printed with colour management switched off in drivers here.
Paul
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Whatever the size of the constituency for printing profile targets, the functionality to do it properly and easily should be there, and if it confuses some people, so be it - all they have to do is a bit of reading to sort it out for themselves.
There are several good reasons that Adobe has dropped No Color Management from the print dlog...first off, as Eric indicated, it doesn't ALWAYS work correctly with ALL OS and driver configs...to get it to "mostly work" was an enormous effort that could be broken with an OS update (as Apple has shown repeatedly) and subject to failure with faulty print drivers (as Epson has recently proven). But people don't seem to be willing to accept that the faults are not with Adobe so Adobe shoulders the blame. Adobe is not going to to a dot release for Photoshop every time something breaks in the hack to make NCM work. So, Adobe removed the option...
One CAN still print targets without using the NCM path...it's the work around that Eric came up with to overcome Epson's 79/9900 driver problem with CS4. Tag the untagged file with Adobe RGB, in Print, set Photoshop to manage color, set Adobe RGB as the output profile forcing a null transform then in the print driver set it to no color management (or whatever the drivers things is no color adjustment).
I'n not sure that is any more difficult and confusing than using the old No Color Management approach...it's a couple of extra steps...but if somebody can follow directions, it shouldn't be all that more difficult...
Reread Eric's last line...
"Adobe believes this is the best long-term approach to serving the needs of users who build their own printer profiles, for a number of technical, practical, and political reasons."
The technical and practical reasons should be obvious...but the toughest problem to deal with is the "political" problems. You can hack around the technical issues but when Adobe is put in the middle between the OS's and print drivers, it's a no win situation. Adobe got tired of shouldering the blame and Photoshop is an expensive application to have to use to print out targets...that's why it'll actually be easier (and ultimately better) to have a free, cross platform application designed SPECIFICALLY to properly print color targets...it'll be easy to rev the tine amount of code (compared to Photoshop) to deal with OS dependancies and to address driver issues. Ultimately it is the proper solution. It'll just tak a bit of time to get the printing app done and posted. In the meantime, use the work around for CS5, or use CS4 or CS3 or even use Apple's Preview on the Mac...ain't no big dealio, ya know?
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I'n not sure that is any more difficult and confusing than using the old No Color Management approach...it's a couple of extra steps...but if somebody can follow directions, it shouldn't be all that more difficult...
Er you think so ?.......... ever done much IT support ?
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There are several good reasons that Adobe has dropped No Color Management from the print dlog...first off, as Eric indicated, it doesn't ALWAYS work correctly with ALL OS and driver configs...to get .....................In the meantime, use the work around for CS5, or use CS4 or CS3 or even use Apple's Preview on the Mac...ain't no big dealio, ya know?
This all makes perfectly good sense to me, and it is good that Adobe will be releasing a separate app to handle it. I believe this time 'round the problem started with a Colorsync issue in the newest version of Mac OSX, but I'm not the guru on that so I'll say no more. But once again on a more general level, it does seem to raise the whole issue of coordination or lack thereof on colour management between the big players in the industry - imperfect like everything else in life. It would be nice one day if Apple, Microsoft, Adobe and the printer manufacturers (at least the major ones) got together on a seamless approach for handling stuff like this.
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I don't buy that. I think more and more users are probably running into this, now that profiling tools such as Colormunki have made printer profiling so much more affordable.
Except the Munki software handles all the target printing, as it should for this usage. Other than having to print untagged targets for profiles, the vast, vast majority of Photoshop users don't need a No Color Management setting in the print dialog. The companies who ask users to print targets for profiles should be doing this instead. Nice of Adobe to supply another free utility to do this, but I see no reason why they should have to.
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I don't buy that. I think more and more users are probably running into this, now that profiling tools such as Colormunki have made printer profiling so much more affordable. It's not like "No Color Management" was the default choice, or even a difficult concept to understand. Reading between the lines it seems like the real reason it was removed is because Apple screwed the pooch by making this option not behave the way it should on recent versions of their OS. Personally, I hate the "Trust us, we know what's best for you" arrogance that results in taking away flexibility/functionality in the name of usability.
Well, Andrew already covered the Munki issue. As to not buying the reasoning, I can assure that is the first hand information that I have. It's definitely not a "trust us" issue or arrogance at all.
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Well, Andrew already covered the Munki issue. As to not buying the reasoning, I can assure that is the first hand information that I have. It's definitely not a "trust us" issue or arrogance at all.
I can understand why they removed it from the Mac versions, as the option clearly wasn't working correctly in a significant number of cases (BTW it did affect Canon ipf printers initially, Canon's fix was an application-specific hack which is why the problem resurfaced for some users when they switched to LR3 beta). Adobe was in a tough spot, and I can see why this was a headache for them on the Mac side.
But I've never heard of this option not working correctly on Windows, so I don't see how it's a usability issue. Having the option there didn't make the product more difficult to use, if anything removing it will for some users. The only reason I can see for pulling it on Windows is because it was pulled on Mac. You can argue whether that's a good reason or not. As a Windows user I can't help but roll my eyes at the whole mess, it certainly doesn't improve my opinion of Macs.
It's nice of Adobe to release a separate utility, hopefully users who need it won't have to wait for long. For folks on the Windows side who need to print a profile target now, I suggest trying a demo of QImage.
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For folks on the Windows side who need to print a profile target now, I suggest trying a demo of QImage.
The work round published by Adobe is easier to use than trying to get to grips with Qimage. Qimage is a very powerful program, but it's not intuitive or easy to learn.
Using 'printer manages colour' ought to be the easy way on Windows systems and still no one has given any explanation or example of why it wouldn't work for printing targets.
Paul
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Using 'printer manages colour' ought to be the easy way on Windows systems and still no one has given any explanation or example of why it wouldn't work for printing targets.
Well, then I've been unclear. Let me say it again. "Printer Manages Colour" is *NOT* a profile-free printing path. It's not the same as "No Colour Management". If you don't get everything precisely right from a heap of options, it won't work when you come to trying to print using the profile you created.
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Well, then I've been unclear. Let me say it again. "Printer Manages Colour" is *NOT* a profile-free printing path. It's not the same as "No Colour Management". If you don't get everything precisely right from a heap of options, it won't work when you come to trying to print using the profile you created.
I agree you have been unclear, in fact it seems you're being intentionally vague. From what Eric has said the only real difference is that the data is sent from Photoshop to the print driver as tagged rather than untagged. The only "heap of options" you need to set with print drivers I've seen is "No Color Management". If you know of a printer where it's more complicated than that on Windows, I'd be interested to know which one.
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I agree you have been unclear, in fact it seems you're being intentionally vague. From what Eric has said the only real difference is that the data is sent from Photoshop to the print driver as tagged rather than untagged. The only "heap of options" you need to set with print drivers I've seen is "No Color Management". If you know of a printer where it's more complicated than that on Windows, I'd be interested to know which one.
I'm not being intentionally vague, Jeff. There's really no need to suggest anything untoward on my part.
There's not a lot to explain. If you want to use that option on Windows go ahead. All I can tell you, from first hand discussions and experience, is that it won't always work. Because the file is sent as tagged, you can't rely on it doing what you expect - choosing NCM in the driver may or may not work depending on what the driver does as a result of receiving a tagged file. Sometimes it will appear to work because of assumptions made in the drivers, but those assumptions differ for different brands and models so as a workflow - something that can be repeated with confidence and consistency, I would not recommend it.
My platform of choice is Windows - I mention that because I think you may be assuming that it's a Mac thing and people are glossing over Windows alternatives because they're Mac users.
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I'm not trying to suggest anything untoward, but your replies have been vague in that you don't give specifics of a case where this has been known to happen, which leaves me to wonder if this really an issue on Windows or if you're speaking in hypotheticals. I'm not trying to be an ass, I really am curious to know if there is a case on Windows where selecting NCM in the driver results in some sort of color transform taking place. To me such behavior would be completely illogical, especially if we're talking about printing a test chart (since the source document is untagged to begin with).
Take Canon iPF for instance. The print-plugin gets a tagged document from PS when you choose File-Export (assuming the document was tagged to start with). So I don't see how choosing NCM in the print-plugin would be any different than using PS print dialog with the "Printer Manages Colors" option, and then choosing NCM in the Canon driver. If the behavior in these two scenarios were different, I would consider that a bug.
I'm also curious, in the case of an untagged document being printed with CS4, if choosing NCM in the print dialog is any different than choosing "Printer Manages Colors". Does PS send the working space tag, or no tag at all in the latter case?
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I'm also curious, in the case of an untagged document being printed with CS4, if choosing NCM in the print dialog is any different than choosing "Printer Manages Colors". Does PS send the working space tag, or no tag at all in the latter case?
With PMC, yes, that’s the idea. If there is no tag, there’s going to be some assumption made and here lies a potential pit fall.
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....In the meantime, use the work around for CS5, or use CS4 or CS3 or even use Apple's Preview on the Mac...ain't no big dealio, ya know?
Is Preview.app really a valid alternative for printing test targets? Using this approach I guess Color Matching "In Printer" then "Image Quality > Color Correction > None" should do it for No Color Management? Guess I should get off my butt and just learn how to compare using Argyll.
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Hi Jeff, for the Printer Manages cases, PS sends the document space (e.g., if your doc is Adobe RGB, PS tags the document as such) as the tag. If the document is untagged, then PS will use your working space as the tag (the thinking being there's no other tag to use ... so in the absence of information, why not). For NCM, the answer is more complicated, because it's platform-dependent. In principle, NCM means just gimme the darn direct device values, no mucking around. Some platforms don't have that mode, so special internal paths are needed to "simulate" NCM. You're probably rolling your eyes and thinking "wow that's gross" and you'd be right.
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for the Printer Manages cases, PS sends the document space ... then PS will use your working space as the tag
To just summarise what's been said here;
FOR WINDOWS; When using 'Printer Manages Colour' PS CS5 only tags the working space to an untagged profiling target and doesn't carry out any data transformation.
So the only risk that a profiling target won't be printed correctly using this option is if the printer driver's 'no colour management' option fails to work correctly and makes a data transformation based on the working space tag.
To put it another way; it will work just like 'no colour management' did in previous versions assuming the printer driver is working correctly.
All this seems to match my tests here and no one has been able to cite an example of a driver with a faulty 'no colour management' option.
Frankly, if the driver's no colour management option isn't working as it should, the whole process is pretty futile anyway.
It would seem that recommending users to print profiling targets via 'printer manages colour' from CS5 on Windows is simpler and has less room for error than the more complex work round suggested by Adobe.
Paul
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To just summarise what's been said here;
FOR WINDOWS; When using 'Printer Manages Colour' PS CS5 only tags the working space to an untagged profiling target and doesn't carry out any data transformation.
So the only risk that a profiling target won't be printed correctly using this option is if the printer driver's 'no colour management' option fails to work correctly and makes a data transformation based on the working space tag.
To put it another way; it will work just like 'no colour management' did in previous versions assuming the printer driver is working correctly.
All this seems to match my tests here and no one has been able to cite an example of a driver with a faulty 'no colour management' option.
Frankly, if the driver's no colour management option isn't working as it should, the whole process is pretty futile anyway.
It would seem that recommending users to print profiling targets via 'printer manages colour' from CS5 on Windows is simpler and has less room for error than the more complex work round suggested by Adobe.
Paul
As Eric said, it's not just the driver or PS - it's the OS as well (and different versions of both Windows and OS X handle it differently).
Trying having a working space of Pro Photo and send an untagged target through to a consumer level printer (like an Epson 2880) and see how it handles it from XP to Vista to 7 and 10.4, 10.5, 10.6 etc. It's not a consistent and simple answer to just use PMC. I wish it were, but it's not. The people who deal with this stuff on the most intimate level are telling you to use a specific work around. If you don't want to, that's fine, and it may well work for what you're doing, but please be careful in telling everyone it will work for them.
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I kept the CS4 version on my Windows 7 PC when I installed Photoshop CS5.
If I print targets in CS4 using the No Color Management option, will the profiles generated from those targets work well in CS5?
Thanks,
Frank
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I kept the CS4 version on my Windows 7 PC when I installed Photoshop CS5.
If I print targets in CS4 using the No Color Management option, will the profiles generated from those targets work well in CS5?
Thanks,
Frank
Yes.
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Using an older version of photoshop to print the targets isn't a total solution, either. In my case, I have CS3, not CS4, and while Adobe doesn't bless "compatibility" for CS3 with 10.6, all of the CS3 programs appears to work OK in Snow Leopard. However, while CS3 appears to run correctly in OS10.6, I can say with certainty (and two painful days of testing) that PSCS3 and the Epson 3880 driver just don't talk to each other under OSX 10.6 the same way they do when printing to identical driver under OSX 10.5 (The same Epson driver is recommended for both 10.5 and 10.6).
One can use either the "Photoshop manages colors" with the No color adjust method, or even use the null transform technique, and the PM5 TC918 target prints well on the OS10.5 machine but differently under 10.6. The printed targets from both systems look like plausible "no color adjust" results yet they differ by a max delta E = 26. The tip off that something was wrong with the 10.6 version came to light because the resulting profile had poor quality (hooking in the blues) and usually making a custom profile for an Epson paper on an Epson printer with PM5 profiling software is a no-brainer.
To summarize, the printed targets from both systems both looked like a plausible "no color adjust" output, but the profile made with target data and same settings under 10.5 = good, profile made with same settings under 10.6 = bad. Ironically, printing the target out of InDesignCS3 on 10.6 using a null transform method matched the CS3/10.5 NCA method output perfectly (within experimental error).
So, my conclusion is that just "keeping an older copy" of photoshop around for target generation isn't the answer, either. Upgrade hell is alive and well!
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To summarize, the printed targets from both systems both looked like a plausible "no color adjust" output, but the profile made with target data and same settings under 10.5 = good, profile made with same settings under 10.6 = bad. Ironically, printing the target out of InDesignCS3 on 10.6 using a null transform method matched the CS3/10.5 NCA method output perfectly (within experimental error).
Did (or can you) run a deltaE report of the two targets printed each way? If not, I can do this in ColorThink. It would be interesting to not only see a report but where in color space the targets themselves are different.
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So, my conclusion is that just "keeping an older copy" of photoshop around for target generation isn't the answer, either. Upgrade hell is alive and well!
Certain not CS3, that was a CM printing mess that seems to mix Apple's old and new printing path. CS4 will work fine though.
Doyle
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Do we have anticipated date for Adobe to release the utility to print profiles?
Frank
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Not yet. Still under development.
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Not yet. Still under development.
What's the problem? This feature was in earlier versions of Photoshop so it's not like they have to invent it again. Come on ADOBE!! Get the problem fixed ASAP !!!!
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What's the problem? This feature was in earlier versions of Photoshop so it's not like they have to invent it again. Come on ADOBE!! Get the problem fixed ASAP !!!!
The "problem" is not Adobe's. It lies with variances and vagueries of operating systems, printer vendor drivers and other things (probably including the phase of the moon...)
The functionality in previous versions and the problems associated with it due to changes outside of Adobe's control is precisely why this FREE app is being developed. It's not a simple matter of just grabbing parts of old PS code and turning it into an app.
If you want to complain - talk to Apple primarily, and printer vendors secondarily (or just get a PC and run Windows - works just fine).
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What's the problem? This feature was in earlier versions of Photoshop so it's not like they have to invent it again. Come on ADOBE!! Get the problem fixed ASAP !!!!
Actually, yes, Adobe did have to start over from scratch on the Mac (which if you had been paying attention you would understand).
Apple changed the print pipeline for Cocoa apps compared to Carbon apps. Since Adobe had to rewrite Photoshop using Cocoa API's in order to take advantage of full 64-bit libraries, they HAD to use the new API's which made No Color Management virtually impossible to do in Photoshop CS5. So, you can either wait for the free profile target printing app, buy a color management app that CAN output printed targets correctly (like Eye-One Match), or learn to use the assign workaround to print out targets in CS5. Or, just output targets from CS4 or CS3.
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Schewe and Farmer, Thanks. I appreciate your comments explaining why the problem exists on a Mac. However, I run the Windows 64 bit version. If the problem is principally due to Apple, I still don't get why an Apple issue caused a problem on the PC version.
Frank
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If the problem is principally due to Apple, I still don't get why an Apple issue caused a problem on the PC version.
Because, where possible, Adobe strives for cross=platform equality. Also, on Windows, 99% of the printers out there will properly print out a target from Photoshop with Print Manages Color and the actual print drivers set to No Color Management. The problem on Mac is that ColorSync would not allow that and the former hacked work-a-rounds simply proved unsustainable.
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Because, where possible, Adobe strives for cross=platform equality. Also, on Windows, 99% of the printers out there will properly print out a target from Photoshop with Print Manages Color and the actual print drivers set to No Color Management. The problem on Mac is that ColorSync would not allow that and the former hacked work-a-rounds simply proved unsustainable.
Jeff, yes, that does appear to be what they are doing, but one has to question the wisdom of creating "equality" at the expense of functionality for the OS which did not mess up colour management. As someone on the verge of converting from Windows to OSX, it bothers me that Apple, a company which WAS the standby of the graphic arts community, appears to have turned its back on the trouble it is causing for those wishing to implement a quite fundamental step in developing their colour managed workflows: printing profiling targets accurately. It says little for Apple's management that Adobe feels the need to come in behind them and repair the mess they've made.
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Jeff, yes, that does appear to be what they are doing, but one has to question the wisdom of creating "equality" at the expense of functionality for the OS which did not mess up colour management. As someone on the verge of converting from Windows to OSX, it bothers me that Apple, a company which WAS the standby of the graphic arts community, appears to have turned its back on the trouble it is causing for those wishing to implement a quite fundamental step in developing their colour managed workflows: printing profiling targets accurately. It says little for Apple's management that Adobe feels the need to come in behind them and repair the mess they've made.
Recently I've begun to be thankful that I am on Windows instead of Apple, just because of all this mess. But I'm happy to report that I already have a Windows-app that lets me print profiles. It's called CS4.
Eric M.
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Recently I've begun to be thankful that I am on Windows instead of Apple, just because of all this mess.
Its not really a mess, a small stain perhaps. Printing targets, with without cm is fully doable outside Photoshop (or in an older version of Photoshop). The software manufacturers that demand untagged targets be output should be supplying the print paths anyway. And you’ve got all those virus and other windows goodies to keep you cleaning up other messes <g>
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Recently I've begun to be thankful that I am on Windows instead of Apple, just because of all this mess. But I'm happy to report that I already have a Windows-app that lets me print profiles. It's called CS4.
Eric M.
Eric, yes, it's good to be ambidextrous, and as someone who is totally agnostic about brand names of anything (I only care about what serves the purpose efficiently and effectively), I too shall keep windows functionality alive some time after I make the conversion to OSX. But I think having said that we need to put things in perspective. This is one important glitch in the latest implementation of OSX. There is, otherwise, a great deal to be said for working in a Mac environment, which is why I am finally migrating. Not a place to rekindle that whole debate, but there is a litany of reasons which make it sensible, without however invalidating the use of Windows where it happens to be advantageous.
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Its not really a mess, a small stain perhaps. Printing targets, with without cm is fully doable outside Photoshop (or in an older version of Photoshop). The software manufacturers that demand untagged targets be output should be supplying the print paths anyway. And you’ve got all those virus and other windows goodies to keep you cleaning up other messes <g>
Andrew, maybe I got the wrong end of this stick, so tell me if I'm mistaken, but from what I've read, in Snow Leopard Colorsync will automatically color-manage an image regardless of what software was used to create it, because there is no option to turn off colour management in the OS itself. If that's the case, I don't see how doing this outside Photoshop in Snow Leopard would solve the problem.
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The issue was ColorSync or some other issue (we never know fully) providing a problem with untagged target output using no color management. ONCE you build the profile, all is fine and dandy.
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The issue was ColorSync or some other issue (we never know fully) providing a problem with untagged target output using no color management. ONCE you build the profile, all is fine and dandy.
Yes, OK, so I got it right. from what I see, the issue still "is" - not "was"; and sure once you build the profile all is fine and dandy. You heard the story of the guy stranded on an island with a sealed can of tunafish - "if only I had a can-opener all would be fine".
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I see, the issue still "is" - not "was"; and sure once you build the profile all is fine and dandy.
It really depends on a number of factors including version of Photoshop, print driver, OS, and other available applications that could print a target without color management. For example, Preview can be made to work like Photoshop CS4 (no color management). So “is” or “was” may be totally moot for a lot of users, even that rare group that printed untagged data of which should be few and far between.
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It really depends on a number of factors including version of Photoshop, print driver, OS, and other available applications that could print a target without color management. For example, Preview can be made to work like Photoshop CS4 (no color management). So “is” or “was” may be totally moot for a lot of users, even that rare group that printed untagged data of which should be few and far between.
The fact remains that now you need more than one application to do what you could have done previously within Photoshop and OSX. The "rarity" of the group that could be affected is not really known and not relevant to solutions. I'm only interested in the technicalities of a solution which really works and for which I don't need yet more software. Sounds like keeping CS4 with Windows active until the new Adobe app ships is the easiest and safest thing to do for all those like me who still have these or some such legacy products.
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The fact remains that now you need more than one application to do what you could have done previously within Photoshop and OSX.
Again, it depends. Works fine with CS3-CS4 etc. ColorMunki prints direct as such a task should be handled in the first place. Software that generates or supplies targets for ICC profiling demand output a fixed way, a method virtually no one else is using and that app should be in charged of printing that data. IF said app could open existing non tagged TIFFs and output, so much the better. I don’t see why Photoshop has to even enter the picture until the profile is built.
Now the inability to print no color management in Photoshop CS5 does affect some of the work I do and I’m not happy about that. I will often use Convert to Profile on multiple images, then gang them in the output space onto a page so I can make one print and inspect different profile options. I would have to print that NCM in Print which I can’t do any longer. I suspect a tiny, tiny group of PS users would need to do this kind of work.
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The fact remains that now you need more than one application to do what you could have done previously within Photoshop and OSX.
Yes, and you seem to keep forgetting what I told you...in order to do what the old No Color Management did in Photoshop in a Carbon API application, the engineers (and product management) determined that trying to do the same hack (because it was a hack that could and was broken many times by Apple) was unmanageable. So, No Color Management was yanked...yes, Win users also lost..so what. The impact is ONLY on people who need to print out intentionally untagged profile making targets. Even back when Photoshop had the ability, a lot of users still failed to properly use it–as Andrew how many people took the target and printed it incorrectly and sent him off the print to read...
So, Photoshop CS5 and above will no longer be engaged in an activity that the color management companies should themselves be doing. You have a color target, you need to read the printed target, shouldn't the CM application provide a method of easily printing that target? I say yes...more moderns ones like Eye-One Match does...
So, rather than tie Photoshop CS5 and above do this, Adobe is going to offer a free, cross platform printer application probably named "Adobe Color Printer Utility" that should be very easy to use and very easy for Adobe to rev in the event that there are underlying issues caused by the OS print pipeline in the future...
Pi$$ & Moan™ all you want about Apple & ColorSync, it pisses me off no end, that's the reality we live in. Deal with it. Also note that color management on Windows ain't exactly nirvana either bud...the only nice thing about Windows is by and large it doesn't do anything bad which means it's up to the applications and the print drivers to get things right. Which doesn't always happen either...
No Color Management is out of Photoshop CS5 and above. Time to move along now...
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...the only nice thing about Windows is by and large it doesn't do anything bad which means it's up to the applications and the print drivers to get things right. Which doesn't always happen either...
And they have “Install Profile” as a contextual menu for profiles. That’s too cool <g>.
Even in OS9, dragging an ICC profile into the system folder would automatically move it to the correct location. What a step back for OS X (despite the multiple location options).
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Because, where possible, Adobe strives for cross=platform equality. Also, on Windows, 99% of the printers out there will properly print out a target from Photoshop with Print Manages Color and the actual print drivers set to No Color Management. The problem on Mac is that ColorSync would not allow that and the former hacked work-a-rounds simply proved unsustainable.
Isn't this developing software for the lowest common denominator? If something works on 80% of the computers out there, let's break it so we can be compatible with the 20% ?
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If something works on 80% of the computers out there, let's break it so we can be compatible with the 20% ?
Yep...although the split in digital imaging is more like 45/55 Mac to PC not 20/80.
Also, do you have solid numbers regarding what % of the total Photoshop marketplace will be impacted by the removal of No Color Management from Print –and guess what, photographers make up less than 10% of the Ps user base–so, how many users are really impacted?
Just how many times in the last year did YOU print out color targets for the purpose of building print profiles?
Not to mention there _IS_ a workable solution to print targets in CS5, you can always use an earlier version or print out of the color management apps that DO support outputting targets...or wait for the free printing app Adobe will be making available.
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Jeff, I agree that Photoshop isn't the issue here. For example, my Pulse Color Elite system prints the targets straight out of its own application without even opening Photoshop, I have been doing a fair bit of that lately and I can do it with confidence that once I turn off colour management in the Epson driver, the target printing process is worked as wanted - i.e. Windows XP isn't imposing another level of colour management under the hood. If I got it right, I think that's the complaint which came in with Snow Leopard - it is doing unwanted stuff under the hood. So if that's the issue, the whole debate about how many Photoshop users are impacted is irrelevant. Anyone who prints targets from any application could be impacted. Is it a thousand people, ten thousand people - I don't know, I don't care. It's a necessary functionality for "X" number of people, and if the problem is lodged within the OS that's unfortunate. So for now, the solution is to use another OS for this purpose which doesn't raise the issue, or wait for Adobe's forthcoming target printing app - good of them to be preparing this.
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It's a necessary functionality for "X" number of people, and if the problem is lodged within the OS that's unfortunate.
Again...a CS5 user CAN print out color targets if they 1) open the target and assign a color space such as Adobe RGB then 2) in the Print dialog, turn on Photoshop's color management and use the same color space (such as Adobe RGB) then 3) in the driver, turn off color management.
So, it's not like removing "no color management" PREVENTS users from printing targets, they just can't print targets the exact same way as in previous versions of Photoshop.
So, really, all the hand wringing is really unjustified. And yes, as a trade off for the benefit of removing the NCA from the Print dialog Adobe decided to provide a free way of doing the same thing that WILL be easier when needing a rev that trying to rev an entire application like Photoshop.
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Yes you're right and of course thanks to Eric for developing that workaround. The point remains, Jeff, that had Apple not made the change it did to the behaviour of Colorsync the whole problem and the need for the workaround most likely would not have arisen in the first place. It has generated enough interest and concern that it can't be dismissed as trivial. In the same breath, I know with software revisions we win some and lose some, and I'd be the last one to suggest that it turns the world upside-down, because for every problem there is a solution. Nonetheless I still find it surprising that Apple did this and didn't see fit to revise it. But the world will go on and we'll have ways of printing our targets correctly - in part thanks to Adobe, in part thanks to legacy solutions.
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Nonetheless I still find it surprising that Apple did this and didn't see fit to revise it.
So, I guess you've never really worked closely with Apple, huh? Ever meet Steve Jobs? I have...and all the people around him were absolutely terrified of him.
The product manager for ColorSync at the time and a bunch of us were all eating at the Mac Cafe in Cupertino when Steve Jobs walked by (I won't mention the product manager's name but Andrew will remember cause he, Bruce and Martin and I were all together). The guy literally sunk in his chair and looked like he was gonna vomit. I said, hey, there's Steve...I said to Martin wanna meet him? (Cause I had met him a couple of times and Martin hadn't). The poor product manager (for ColorSync mind) you whispered "please don't call him over, I've never met him and I don't want him to know I'm alive" (that's almost a direct quote, right Andrew?
So, I'm actually surprised that people actually drink the Kool-Aid when it comes to Apple...ColorSync could be great, it's just at the moment, it isn't (and really hasn't since OS X came out).
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The real question is - did Jobs recognize you? Now that would have been a conversation between two Alphas!
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So, I guess you've never really worked closely with Apple, huh? Ever meet Steve Jobs? I have...and all the people around him were absolutely terrified of him.
The product manager for ColorSync at the time and a bunch of us were all eating at the Mac Cafe in Cupertino when Steve Jobs walked by (I won't mention the product manager's name but Andrew will remember cause he, Bruce and Martin and I were all together). The guy literally sunk in his chair and looked like he was gonna vomit. I said, hey, there's Steve...I said to Martin wanna meet him? (Cause I had met him a couple of times and Martin hadn't). The poor product manager (for ColorSync mind) you whispered "please don't call him over, I've never met him and I don't want him to know I'm alive" (that's almost a direct quote, right Andrew?
So, I'm actually surprised that people actually drink the Kool-Aid when it comes to Apple...ColorSync could be great, it's just at the moment, it isn't (and really hasn't since OS X came out).
This is a very interesting and revealing post Jeff - thanks for sharing that insight - and no - I never have worked closely with Apple or met Steve Jobs - he's "a bit" above my pay-grade. This shows those of us (and I plead guilty) who routinely seek for rationality in corporate decision-making (because companies are supposed to be rational economic agents according to the textbook) can be disappointed by the fact that all these companies are made-up of us human beings who are not always rational in the text-book sense. So it applies to Apple Computer like anywhere else. Shouldn't be surprised after all. But we do need to put all this in perspective. I remember where personal computing was back in the early to mid 1980s, and it's fair to say that Steve Jobs put it on the map and hasn't stopped since. Let's hope these public discussions incite them to really make more mileage with Colorsync.
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Ok, I've been following this thread and do agree with almost everything said about Colorsync. I am a Mac person thru and thru but I just couldn't take the problems any longer between Apple, Epson, Adobe.
And then to top it off the i1 Match software has a conflict with SL. I did something I never thought I would do in a 100 years. I hooked up a pc running as a print server to my wide format printers and installed Qimage. I do everything on my Mac and then move the files to the pc and print thru Qimage. No more grey bars, blue haze, pc doesn't care if it is a V4 or V2 profile. I don't worry if the print will come out ok or not, jobs are recalled with all settings. Like I said, I can't believe I resorted to going that route but my workflow is so much better and the prints are wonderful. Yes, I love my Macs and will always be a Mac person but for now and the foreseeable future my pc print server and Qimage have taken all the stress out of printing.
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Ok, I've been following this thread and do agree with almost everything said about Colorsync. I am a Mac person thru and thru but I just couldn't take the problems any longer between Apple, Epson, Adobe.
And then to top it off the i1 Match software has a conflict with SL. I did something I never thought I would do in a 100 years. I hooked up a pc running as a print server to my wide format printers and installed Qimage. I do everything on my Mac and then move the files to the pc and print thru Qimage. No more grey bars, blue haze, pc doesn't care if it is a V4 or V2 profile. I don't worry if the print will come out ok or not, jobs are recalled with all settings. Like I said, I can't believe I resorted to going that route but my workflow is so much better and the prints are wonderful. Yes, I love my Macs and will always be a Mac person but for now and the foreseeable future my pc print server and Qimage have taken all the stress out of printing.
Yes, well this just underlines the point that we all need to be "brand-agnostic" and focus simply on what works best for the purpose at hand. My experience using Windows with the Epson printer driver has been fine for printing with several generations of Epson printers. The driver layout and its interface with Photoshop CS4 are very good, the division of labour between the two is sensible and easy to master, and the OS does not get in the way. It all works as it is meant to. Very recent tests I've done using spectrophotometric readings of enlarged pixels from a sample print compared with the file numbers for those pixels demonstrated insignificant dE values. Hence I have substantial confidence in that end of my colour management set-up.
Interestingly, I was researching a question put to me by a colleague this morning and came across the following in Martin Evening's excellent Lightroom 3 book, on page 535, dealing with printing from LR using the option for LR to handle printer color management. Here he says: "Most important, the ColorSync/ICM settings should be set to No Color Management, because you want to avoid double-color-managing the print image data." So unless I've misunderstood something about the details of the ColorSync problem, it seems as if not being able to turn-off colour management in the OS would matter to more than whatever number of people want to print profiling targets - it would seem to also affect anyone printing from LR with LR managing color. For completeness I should mention that in the side-note of page 537, Martin mentions the ColorSync issue in the context of profile target printing, where at the bottom he notes the workaround mentioned by Mark Dubovoy in this forum for that purpose. I'm wondering now what one does to print photographs from LR3 with LR managing color if using a Mac with Snow Leopard.
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Ok, I've been following this thread and do agree with almost everything said about Colorsync. I am a Mac person thru and thru but I just couldn't take the problems any longer between Apple, Epson, Adobe.
And then to top it off the i1 Match software has a conflict with SL. I did something I never thought I would do in a 100 years. I hooked up a pc running as a print server to my wide format printers and installed Qimage. I do everything on my Mac and then move the files to the pc and print thru Qimage. No more grey bars, blue haze, pc doesn't care if it is a V4 or V2 profile. I don't worry if the print will come out ok or not, jobs are recalled with all settings. Like I said, I can't believe I resorted to going that route but my workflow is so much better and the prints are wonderful. Yes, I love my Macs and will always be a Mac person but for now and the foreseeable future my pc print server and Qimage have taken all the stress out of printing.
The problems with SL, Colorsync and i1match are irrelevant - but the lack of Qimage for Mac platform is a real disaster... They really should have mercy for all these poor Epson+OSX users...
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The problems with SL, Colorsync and i1match are irrelevant - but the lack of Qimage for Mac platform is a real disaster... They really should have mercy for all these poor Epson+OSX users...
Mike Chaney explains why that will never happen:
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/may-2...me-sour-apples/ (http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/may-2010-some-sour-apples/)
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I remember where personal computing was back in the early to mid 1980s, and it's fair to say that Steve Jobs put it on the map and hasn't stopped since.
I guess the Apple II did pretty much bring it to the forefront.
That said the AppleIIe and MAC were pretty weak compared to stuff like Atari 8bits, Amigas, etc.
It's a shame the companies with poor hardware and OS had genius marketers and the companies the actually good product had bumblers for management (and that the press so easily swallowed up all the MS/Apple/IBM influence).
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It's a shame the companies with poor hardware and OS had genius marketers and the companies the actually good product had bumblers for management (and that the press so easily swallowed up all the MS/Apple/IBM influence).
I started a carreer in DTP over 15 years ago with a PC 486 33MHz, 16MB RAM (but only 4MB were really available in Windows 3.11) and 120MB HDD. When I saw a Quadra 950 - 68040 33MHz stuffed with 128MB of RAM that actually worked, 1GB SCSI HDD, and in dual monitor setup (shock!), I thought it must had been brought to Earth by aliens! I wouldn't dare to say they had poor hardware back in '90-ties...
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The problems with SL, Colorsync and i1match are irrelevant - but the lack of Qimage for Mac platform is a real disaster... They really should have mercy for all these poor Epson+OSX users...
The folks at Colorburst have an interesting solution. Not necessarily as economical as QImage (and in certain areas not as functional... most notably QImage has a wonderful sharpening algorithm) but...
http://www.overdriverip.com/ (http://www.overdriverip.com/)
Cheers, Joe
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Scott Martin mentioned this tool on the Canon IPF Wiki as well:
http://www.bluecubit.com/ (http://www.bluecubit.com/)
A little bit more affordable than Colorburst Overdrive.
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... if I use the "null transform" solution with OSX 10.6.x / PS CS5 / Canon iPF5100 than I can't deactivate CM driver settings because they are greyed out. So the question is: Is CM in Canon's iPF5100 driver deactivated or not in this kind of status?
B.r.
oriwo
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Jeff, I'm afraid you're wrong. I was doing some profiling tests yesterday, network printing with from a Snow Leopard Mac with CS 4 to an Epson 3880 hanging off a Linux Gutenprint. The only way to print targets was to do Eric Chan's workaround with sRGB; using a printer profile as both source and destination would fail. No color management would fail. Printer manages colors would fail. sRGB and maybe AdobeRGB seem to be hardwired into the system and usable for the workaround.
And even worse actually, the Mac was trying to double-color manage all the files printed with a profile from CS4 to the remote system.
Edmund
Again...a CS5 user CAN print out color targets if they 1) open the target and assign a color space such as Adobe RGB then 2) in the Print dialog, turn on Photoshop's color management and use the same color space (such as Adobe RGB) then 3) in the driver, turn off color management.
So, it's not like removing "no color management" PREVENTS users from printing targets, they just can't print targets the exact same way as in previous versions of Photoshop.
So, really, all the hand wringing is really unjustified. And yes, as a trade off for the benefit of removing the NCA from the Print dialog Adobe decided to provide a free way of doing the same thing that WILL be easier when needing a rev that trying to rev an entire application like Photoshop.
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... if I use the "null transform" solution with OSX 10.6.x / PS CS5 / Canon iPF5100 than I can't deactivate CM driver settings because they are greyed out. So the question is: Is CM in Canon's iPF5100 driver deactivated or not in this kind of status?
B.r.
oriwo
Look under Main/Color Mode: If No Color Correction is listed and grayed out then CM in the driver is deactivated. If Color is listed and grayed out then Photoshop CS5 is not listed in the special casing file (AppColorMatchingInfo.xml) in the driver. Refer here for an updated AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file. http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/view/FAQ/26106471
You can also install the driver for the iPF6300. It has CS5 and LR3 listed but not LR3.2RC.
Doyle
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Look under Main/Color Mode: If No Color Correction is listed and grayed out then CM in the driver is deactivated. If Color is listed and grayed out then Photoshop CS5 is not listed in the special casing file (AppColorMatchingInfo.xml) in the driver. Refer here for an updated AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file. http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/view/FAQ/26106471
You can also install the driver for the iPF6300. It has CS5 and LR3 listed but not LR3.2RC.
Doyle
Hello Doyle,
thanks for explanation.
Oliver
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True, the workaround (assign, etc.) requires you to choose one of the builtin profiles (like Adobe RGB). Otherwise you won't get the desired NULL transform.
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So, this is interesting.
Based on what's been suggested, Adobe removed the NCM option, because it led to problems with various combinations of operating systems and print drivers.
But if Photoshop can't correctly print an image (a target) without applying a profile (i.e. the NCM option), why should we necessarily assume that it can correctly print an image (a photograph) after applying a profile (i.e. Photoshop manages color) for the same operating system/driver combination?
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But if Photoshop can't correctly print an image (a target) without applying a profile (i.e. the NCM option), why should we necessarily assume that it can correctly print an image (a photograph) after applying a profile (i.e. Photoshop manages color) for the same operating system/driver combination?
Because in the case of Photoshop Manages Color, the file data is being converted to an output profile by Photoshop and being tagged. It's "untagged data" as in the case of a profile target that has issues. As long as you can turn color management OFF in the print driver, an output profile managed by Photoshop behaves normally.
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Anyone know more about when Adobe will release the free app to print profile targets?
Frank
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Because in the case of Photoshop Manages Color, the file data is being converted to an output profile by Photoshop and being tagged. It's "untagged data" as in the case of a profile target that has issues. As long as you can turn color management OFF in the print driver, an output profile managed by Photoshop behaves normally.
So, it's the untagged data that's causing the problem. Then I'm wondering, why couldn't Photoshop tag the data, but still not make the conversion for an NCM option?
I suppose as long as Adobe provides a utility to print targets, then we have what we need. But, if they can provide a separate utility to print targets, they could have certainly left the NCM option within Photoshop. And in my view, that's where it belongs.
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So, it's the untagged data that's causing the problem. Then I'm wondering, why couldn't Photoshop tag the data, but still not make the conversion for an NCM option?
I suppose as long as Adobe provides a utility to print targets, then we have what we need. But, if they can provide a separate utility to print targets, they could have certainly left the NCM option within Photoshop. And in my view, that's where it belongs.
But the problem is in some specific printer drivers. Even Epson's 8.x drivers do not have this problem. I do not see where this is an Adobe or Apple problem.
Doyle
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At the risk of sounding naive might I ask the following?
In CS5 in the print window, under Print Settings, then Layout, then print settings> in Basic under Color Settings there is an OFF (No Color Adjustment) option.
When selected isnt that option performing the same function as Color Management OFF (No Color Adjustment) in prior versions of Photoshop such as CS3??
Thanks in advance for comments.
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In CS5 in the print window, under Print Settings, then Layout, then print settings> in Basic under Color Settings there is an OFF (No Color Adjustment) option.
When selected isnt that option performing the same function as Color Management OFF (No Color Adjustment) in prior versions of Photoshop such as CS3??
OFF (No Color Adjustments) is a setting in your print driver (sounds like an Epson). OFF No Color Management in Print, which is part of Photoshop was completely different and is no longer an option in CS5 (Color Handling).
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Yes it is an Epson printer, I forgot to mention that fact.
Sure is confusing. I am sitting her looking at CS 3 Print dialog box, on Color Management, has 3 buttons,
"Color Controls" then "Color Sync" and last button is "Off"( No Color Adjustment) the same exact words as in CS5 installed on my other mac. On the CS5 with No color adjustment selected my prints look quite good.
In CS3 I had to use Off to get decent print colors.
Perhaps you could explain further what the difference is?
Thanks..
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Yes it is an Epson printer, I forgot to mention that fact.
Sure is confusing. I am sitting her looking at CS 3 Print dialog box, on Color Management, has 3 buttons,
"Color Controls" then "Color Sync" and last button is "Off"( No Color Adjustment) the same exact words as in CS5 installed on my other mac. On the CS5 with No color adjustment selected my prints look quite good.
In CS3 I had to use Off to get decent print colors.
You are confusing Photoshop and its controls with the Epson print driver and its controls. In CS5, the Print Settings button opens the Epson driver controls. You are no longer “in” Photoshop but the Epson driver. In CS4 and earlier, you configured Photoshop’s Print dialog, hit the Print button and the Epson dialog (the dialog you see by selecting Print Settings in CS5) appear.
Two sets of controls, two sets that do different things. And FWIW, if you had a different print driver, you would see different items to select after clicking Print Settings in CS5 (or the Print button in CS3).
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You have explained something I never have nor understood, ie that one box is PS and the other the Printer. Thanks.
You obviously know infinitely more that I do about this subject, and I do want to appear argumentative however in both cases are we not in the Printer dialog box and shutting OFF color adjustment by the Printer, thereby letting PS to manage colors?
Thank you
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in both cases are we not in the Printer dialog box and shutting OFF color adjustment by the Printer, thereby letting PS to manage colors?
Again, there’s Photoshop’s Print dialog and there’s a printer dialog.
You can set Photoshop CS4 and earlier for No Color Management (you can’t in CS5). You can set all versions to use color management. This is completely independent of the print driver. You can set the Epson Print driver for No Color Adjustment independent of Photoshop. The two are not the same. One controls the working space data as it is sent to the print driver (that’s Photoshop). Once that data makes its way to the print driver, you have the Epson driver control itself (No Color Adjustment).
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Ok. So the question then becomes what is the best way to print from CS 5 to an Epson printer? i use custom printer profiles generally. Is there a preferred methodology for color management using CS 5?
Thanks again. Peter
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In CS5 go to file/print. On the right hand side of the Photoshop window pick Photoshop manage Colors. Under Printer profile pick your profile. Now click on Print Settings - this will take you to the Epson print driver where under color management you will pick "no color management". Go under print settings and pick your media, etc. You then hit "Save" in the print driver window and are taken back to Photoshop window where you hit print. That should do it.
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Trying to follow your protocol however in my CS5 when I select Print Setting which takes me to a Print window, first select paper size then convert from Layout to another Print Setting, select Media type. At this point there is no Color Management per se but Color Settings are available from which one can select OFF ( No Color Management), then Save and then from the photoshop window, Print.
Trying to be exact in this process to understand if its the same process you describe?
Thanks for your help.
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Sounds the same to me. Go for it.
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Ok. So the question then becomes what is the best way to print from CS 5 to an Epson printer? i use custom printer profiles generally. Is there a preferred methodology for color management using CS 5?
Photoshop Manages Color, select profile and rendering intent. Set Epson for No Color Adjustment (and rest of driver correctly set with media settings etc)
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So do we differentiate "no color management" in prior versions of Photoshop as compared to 'no color adjustment" in CS5? Are they not the same? Both are performed within the Printer window are they not?
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There is NO “No Color Management” option in CS5.
Read the posts again! No Color Management and No Color Adjustments are two entirely different options in two entirely different pieces of software.
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Again, there’s Photoshop’s Print dialog and there’s a printer dialog.
You can set Photoshop CS4 and earlier for No Color Management (you can’t in CS5). You can set all versions to use color management. This is completely independent of the print driver. You can set the Epson Print driver for No Color Adjustment independent of Photoshop. The two are not the same. One controls the working space data as it is sent to the print driver (that’s Photoshop). Once that data makes its way to the print driver, you have the Epson driver control itself (No Color Adjustment).
Maybe this is a known bug; I'm not sure. I have an early, upgrade version of CS4 that was ordered prior to CS4's release. The "No Color Management" doesn't work correctly. It prints the target far too light. Consequently, prints come out far too dark. This drove me nuts (not a long drive), until I finally compared the CS4 printed target to that printed by CS3.
I could probably fix this with a Adobe downloaded upgrade, but haven't yet. I just use CS3 to print my targets.
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But the problem is in some specific printer drivers. Even Epson's 8.x drivers do not have this problem. I do not see where this is an Adobe or Apple problem.
Doyle
Yes, I understand this. I've learned something from this thread in that regard. And I know it's neither the responsibility of Apple nor Adobe. But in my view, I don't see this as a sufficient reason for Adobe to retract an important feature.
I can also understand how others might see this differently.