Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: marc gerritsen on April 06, 2010, 08:37:12 pm
-
I am busy re-configuring my office computers and am thinking of getting two imacs 27"
but I keep hearing here and there that the screens are too light and/or too reflective
I am working on a new mac book pro with a similar quality screen when I am on the road
and realized that my photos look very different once i put them on the office screens
any of you have experience with those screens in terms of calibrating etc
cheers
marc
-
I am busy re-configuring my office computers and am thinking of getting two imacs 27"
but I keep hearing here and there that the screens are too light and/or too reflective
I am working on a new mac book pro with a similar quality screen when I am on the road
and realized that my photos look very different once i put them on the office screens
any of you have experience with those screens in terms of calibrating etc
cheers
marc
Hmm.... I would avoid the glossy screens as much as possible. I ordered my 17" MBP with the matte screen and my old 24" Cinema Display has the matte screen too. I think the glossy versions ten to make things feel more contrasty and oversaturated.... plus annoying reflections. I ordered a 24" Eizo yesterday and am anxious to compare it to the Apple display.
-
I am busy re-configuring my office computers and am thinking of getting two imacs 27"
but I keep hearing here and there that the screens are too light and/or too reflective
I am working on a new mac book pro with a similar quality screen when I am on the road
and realized that my photos look very different once i put them on the office screens
any of you have experience with those screens in terms of calibrating etc
cheers
marc
Calibrating an iMac is an exercise in frustration. You can't get it dark enough and the edge to edge uniformity is less than stellar. I use an Eizo CG222W for serious colour, and the iMac for palettes, etc.
-
Hmm.... I would avoid the glossy screens as much as possible. I ordered my 17" MBP with the matte screen and my old 24" Cinema Display has the matte screen too. I think the glossy versions ten to make things feel more contrasty and oversaturated.... plus annoying reflections. I ordered a 24" Eizo yesterday and am anxious to compare it to the Apple display.
the problem with that is that apple does not make any non-glossy screens either in the imacs or any other display
wondering if a certain film could rectify some of the problems and if it is managable.
m
-
I recently bought a top of the line MBP 17 inch, and they mostly offered the glossy monitor. I paid extra for the matte screen, but the problem with that is that your eyes must be exactly in line with the monitor, or else the visual representation changes drastically. Up to what I'd estimate to be about a stop lighter, if you're not directly in line with the monitor.
But I found that glossy option to be completely objectionable; I don't want to see myself, when I'm tethering a job in direct sunlight. Very irritating.
I don't know of a good option. Maybe paint the sheetrock behind your editing station very dark grey, and wear your fashion-black tshirt when you're retouching, and hope your hair is combed, because if it's not, it's gonna bug you to death while you're working, when you see your reflection.
I retouch with the older matte Apple 30" monitors, calibrated with EyeOne Photo, and I love those monitors. Maybe not as accurate as a pricey Eizo, but still, a very nice monitor, when calibrated.
-
Marc,
do yourself a favor and get yourself a NEC SpectraView 3090 30 Inch.
You can get them from B&H for around $2500 USD
They are 100% RGB.
Not much comes close apart from the Eizo.
You can afford it,the busiest shooter in the East!
-
Marc,
do yourself a favor and get yourself a NEC SpectraView 3090 30 Inch.
You can get them from B&H for around $2500 USD
They are 100% RGB.
Not much comes close apart from the Eizo.
You can afford it,the busiest shooter in the East!
What Willem said... And actually, it's been discounted -- it's now around $1900 with the puck and Spectaview software.
-
do yourself a favor and get yourself a NEC SpectraView 3090 30 Inch.
You can get them from B&H for around $2500 USD
They are 100% RGB.
Not much comes close apart from the Eizo.
I've had one of these for just over a year. It replaced my Apple 30" ACD. Great monitor, much better shadow detail than the ACD, more neutral in grays and more accurate. Also, a breeze to calibrate. No more futzing with the luminosity slider in the Mac display sys. pref's.
-
What Willem said... And actually, it's been discounted -- it's now around $1900 with the puck and Spectaview software.
I just bought one also. what a difference for the better.
-
You simply can't have a good calibration with the iMac because you have only software controls on the monitor, of course you can move up and down the luminosity, but it's like calibrating the macbook, it's better then nothing but far far away from a good pro level monitor. A good monitor, like the Eizo, have usb port somewhere on the right where you can attach a spectrophotometer and with the eizo's software you can first run a hardware calibration and then create a profile... The imac is good for teeneagers and for receptionists... The gloss screen makes me dizzy after 2 hours, with my eizo i can work all day long and my eyes are fresh like in the morning
another point is the contrast of the monitor, choose something around 400:1 i guess the imac is something like 1000:1 that is a bad starting point for printing proofing.
if you want to buy an iMac you don't need much power and much ram, keep the macbook and attach it to a good eizo, oh and if you don't have it, buy a spectrophotometer... remember that an eizo can live beteween 5 and 10 years, so if you think they are expensive, think again...
-
remember that an eizo can live beteween 5 and 10 years, so if you think they are expensive, think again...
actually ... we don't know yet. The wide gamut panels are still relatively new. And they produce more heat than the former sRGB panels.
Eizo excludes the max. luminance level from their 5 year warranty - a max. luminance level of 120cd/qm is guaranteed for "only" 3 years.
On the other hand my wide gamut Eizo is 2.5 years old and the generic luminosity is reduced just a little. Also the generic white point has shifted just a bit (warmer). Uniformity is still very good.
So 5 years... probably yes. But I'd consider 10 years as quite optimistic...
-
actually ... we don't know yet. The wide gamut panels are still relatively new. And they produce more heat than the former sRGB panels.
Eizo excludes the max. luminance level from their 5 year warranty - a max. luminance level of 120cd/qm is guaranteed for "only" 3 years.
On the other hand my wide gamut Eizo is 2.5 years old and the generic luminosity is reduced just a little. Also the generic white point has shifted just a bit (warmer). Uniformity is still very good.
So 5 years... probably yes. But I'd consider 10 years as quite optimistic...
Good to know it, i didn't... Thanks tho_mas
-
On the subject of calibration, I have just discovered that an i1 display 2 just doesn't cut it with an Eizo CG222W. I got a nasty pink cast which didn't go away until I profiled it with an i1 Pro. My i1 display may be broken, but I have wasted enough time. It's for the rubbish bin.
-
I have had an Imac 24 with a NEC 2690 WUXI attached and quite liked that combo, though they were impossible to get looking alike, so I trusted the NEC and used the iMAC for anything not requiring critical color.
recently I have upgraded to a Mac tower and a EIZO CG241W, alongside with my NEC.
I am not so sure it was worth spending for the Eizo, I can't see much difference to the NEC, but it is true, it seems to be easier to my eyes than the imac/NEC combo.
the best thing now it the Imac comes along to shootings in a ilugger, it is so much nicer to tether than my macbook. I can even slip a Benq widescreen display into that bag, so my stylist gets his own tripod mounted screen for liveview in line of sight, while me and my clients can watch the captures on the Imac.
-
Although Eizo may seem to be pricey, you don't need a top-notch Eizo monitor to have a very accurate color rendition after calibration. Plus they come with long warranty.
I've heard bad things about 30" cinema displays so be careful (greenish color cast at the edge, inconsistent lighting of the screen).
-
Marc,
do yourself a favor and get yourself a NEC SpectraView 3090 30 Inch.
You can get them from B&H for around $2500 USD
They are 100% RGB.
Not much comes close apart from the Eizo.
You can afford it,the busiest shooter in the East!
+1 on the 90 series NEC's. Just got the 2690 to replace a very trusted Lacie Electron blue crt. What a nice monitor. Sorry I waited so long to change.
-
New series from NEC to be available in the next few months according to:
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subac...p;id=1265200378 (http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1265200378)
-
I can only say that I love my Eizo CG301 and CG220. The CG220 is over 5 years old now and works still great. The 30'' Eizo is a dream to work.
-
I was using CG301 for capture a couple weeks ago,
and did not like at all how the image displayed changed from different viewing angles.
I suppose that's why an improved model CG303 using IPS panel is coming out soon.
-
I was using CG301 for capture a couple weeks ago,
and did not like at all how the image displayed changed from different viewing angles.
I suppose that's why an improved model CG303 using IPS panel is coming out soon.
There are only so many manufacturer's of 30" panels and a company like Eizo doesn't just "throw" the latest panel into a monitor - they create a monitor very specifically for that panel which takes some time. So those products are often half a generation behind. Still I find the viewing angle of the 301 to be good - of huge note though I almost always have the hood on (this panel is so huge that it's nearly impossible to work with if you're not shading it) and that restricts your angle of view (can't look through a hood! :-)).
Generally speaking I far prefer the 24" size for price/value/product-cycles. If needed, two 24" monitors (or a 24" and a cheap 20") makes a much more flexible (IMO) solution than one 30". If pure size (for impact on non-color-critical clients) is the desire an output to a larger-and-still-cheap HDTV seems more reasonable.
I LOVE the Eizo CG243w (diclaimer: we sell Eizo and LaCie so I'm biased). Display port and HDMI inputs, great viewing angle, fantastically accurate and consistent rendition of even difficult images (shadow detail, detail in areas of bright color like back-lite clothing, gradients) no matter where they are on the screen.
Once you've worked on an built-only-for-color-critical-proofing Eizo it's really hard to go back to general-purpose monitors.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
On the subject of calibration, I have just discovered that an i1 display 2 just doesn't cut it with an Eizo CG222W. I got a nasty pink cast which didn't go away until I profiled it with an i1 Pro. My i1 display may be broken, but I have wasted enough time. It's for the rubbish bin.
Were you using Eizo's Color Navigator software? If not then that was the problem, not the calibrator.
When calibrating an Eizo you should use their own software so that the corrections are being made to the Eizo's response rather than the output of the computer. Long (technical) story short: use Color Navigator not the software that came with your hardware puck.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
Calibrating an iMac is an exercise in frustration. You can't get it dark enough
No longer true with the current iMacs ... easy to get the right luminosity. While not a perfect workstation, iMacs aren't bad, and even the glossy screen is really a non-issue if you are working in an appropriately dim room. Hard to even see any difference if compared to an anti-glare screen in a totally black room.
Under most bright conditions, the glossy screen is actually better, as it is pretty hard to see reflections with normal documents on the screen and the screens are just brighter. I can use my current macbook when riding in a car much easier than my previous ones. As far as bright sunlight, neither works very well, but the matt one can be better if you have some way to use a hood around it.
the main reason I bring this up is the thread title seems to be misstated, the OP was interested in an imac, not a cinema display. thus he is looking at a $1600 investment for an entire computer, quite a bit different than $2500 for a display only. The iMac is functional and printed output can be just fine unless there is some color critical component to it (reproducing artwork, product shots, etc.).
Certainly not the perfect solution, if searching for the best setup, there are much better options.
-
Wow...I didnt know the NEC 3090 was down to $1900...going to retire the 23" ACD (which has been quite stable actually) and purchase the NEC later this month. Thanks for the link.
-
What Willem said... And actually, it's been discounted -- it's now around $1900 with the puck and Spectaview software.
Thanks..just ordered one..:>)
Steve
-
Once you've worked on an built-only-for-color-critical-proofing Eizo it's really hard to go back to general-purpose monitors.
Doug,
I'm delighted that we can violently agree on this.
Cheers,
Jeff
-
Thanks..just ordered one..:>)
Steve
I spotted it about 3 weeks ago , told Jack he ordered one, Bob ordered one than I did. Been watching this monitor since it came out but this is like a 500 dollar savings when brought to market. I'm surprised they still have them in stock. Best price I have seen out there. Not a great web machine but for real work and printing hard to beat. 30 inch Eizo is just a little out of reach right now.
-
the new imacs have completely different screens then even the last generation....much better...still glossy but actually really nice...
my own opinion about screens and calibration (after years of way more detailed experience then i would like) is that in the end what is important is how it looks on paper....and no screen has ever given me that....very close in terms of color (and everything else) but there is always a difference between a backlit image and one on paper with texture....
i am using a 3 year old lacie now after using eizos (because they are the best, whatever that means)....i never was too happy with the eizos, the lacie is great, i am sure the latest technology is much much much better but i know that A: it won't improve the DR of paper and B: the person watching on the dell (no offence) isn't calibrated so who knows what the skintone looks like....
all i know is that the new 27" imac i7 is about 2000$, is faster then most last gen towers, the screen looks AMAZING (you almost forget that it is glossy:)....) so the value is really hard to beat....i know, i know...no esata....and that glossy thing...i actually think that it is the worst at the apple store (because they are so bright) i have seen several out in the wild (not outside of course) and i honestly completely forgot that the screens are actually glossy....
-
Although Eizo may seem to be pricey, you don't need a top-notch Eizo monitor to have a very accurate color rendition after calibration. Plus they come with long warranty.
I've heard bad things about 30" cinema displays so be careful (greenish color cast at the edge, inconsistent lighting of the screen).
As Eizo-Nanao has become better known and has accomodated the moving-image market, it has been getting harder and harder to find an Eizo model that is stellar rather than just good; on the other hand, the new 24" iMacs have IPS panels (good viewing angle) and a decent reputation.
Edmund
-
As Eizo-Nanao has become better known and has accomodated the moving-image market, it has been getting harder and harder to find an Eizo model that is stellar rather than just good
true. The (relatively) moderate priced CG displays have sample variation... when I bought mine back then I had temporarily 3 copies standing around here as the first one had bad uniformity, the second had some pixel errors and finally the third was good. I've seen around 10 of the same monitors (CG241W) over the time and they all had an issue here or there. Nothing serious, but that's certainly not "high end" (but "high end", like a CG221 or a Spectra View Reference, is naturally more expensive).
Then again it was no trouble at all to exchange the monitors... Eizo handled it really quick and easy.
However, my next display will be a Quato for sure... they hand pick the panels and quality control is exemplary. Uniformity is excellent. They are also extremely good linearized. But as long as my current Eizo will do fine there's no hurry.
-
Not a great web machine but for real work and printing hard to beat. 30 inch Eizo is just a little out of reach right now.
**********
The NEC will just fit next to the 30" CHD...Pure luck, I didn't measure before I hit the order button...
Steve
-
No longer true with the current iMacs ... easy to get the right luminosity. While not a perfect workstation, iMacs aren't bad, and even the glossy screen is really a non-issue if you are working in an appropriately dim room. Hard to even see any difference if compared to an anti-glare screen in a totally black room.
Under most bright conditions, the glossy screen is actually better, as it is pretty hard to see reflections with normal documents on the screen and the screens are just brighter. I can use my current macbook when riding in a car much easier than my previous ones. As far as bright sunlight, neither works very well, but the matt one can be better if you have some way to use a hood around it.
the main reason I bring this up is the thread title seems to be misstated, the OP was interested in an imac, not a cinema display. thus he is looking at a $1600 investment for an entire computer, quite a bit different than $2500 for a display only. The iMac is functional and printed output can be just fine unless there is some color critical component to it (reproducing artwork, product shots, etc.).
Certainly not the perfect solution, if searching for the best setup, there are much better options.
that was helpful Wayne, thanks
I think that the imac is up to speed to deal with mdb raw files, as my macbook pro is, although not for trailblazing!
to buy 4 mac pro towers + screens for everyone in the office is too much (even for me, Willem!)
we have an eizo screen in the office so we can always use it to proof the final image that goes to media or client
cheers
m
-
true. The (relatively) moderate priced CG displays have sample variation... when I bought mine back then I had temporarily 3 copies standing around here as the first one had bad uniformity, the second had some pixel errors and finally the third was good. I've seen around 10 of the same monitors (CG241W) over the time and they all had an issue here or there. Nothing serious, but that's certainly not "high end" (but "high end", like a CG221 or a Spectra View Reference, is naturally more expensive).
Then again it was no trouble at all to exchange the monitors... Eizo handled it really quick and easy.
However, my next display will be a Quato for sure... they hand pick the panels and quality control is exemplary. Uniformity is excellent. They are also extremely good linearized. But as long as my current Eizo will do fine there's no hurry.
What Eizo-Nanao have done is build up the CG label as a premium-in-premium brand that had no rivals and now they are using this established brand to sell cheaper panels. It brings in money, so I guess it must be good strategy, right?
In the end, photographers who are not color specialists might do well in just buying 24" iMacs and skipping the whole separate-screen thing. I got an uncalibrated 17" MacBook Pro and a calibrated 15" both with matte screens, and I use an Argyll print profiling suite which I assembled myself driving a big Barbieri, and Monaco Profiler with a DTP70, and I get not perfect but decent screen to print matches everywhere, more than good enough for my fine art work. Epson's canned black and white mode works well with the 3880 and their own papers, and again the laptop screens give me a decent preview although as always exact shadow tone appreciation is hard. Based on this I'd say that of you're lucky enough to have bought a laptop with a working screen, you can have a good closed-loop workflow with canned profiles, and skip buying anything more expensive than a screen calibrator. And, by the way, I consider my i1Display2 to be defective; the i1Pros I own work well.
Edmund
-
What Eizo-Nanao have done is build up the CG label as a premium-in-premium brand that had no rivals and now they are using this established brand to sell cheaper panels. It brings in money, so I guess it must be good strategy, right?
In the end, photographers who are not color specialists might do well in just buying 24" iMacs and skipping the whole separate-screen thing. I got an uncalibrated 17" MacBook Pro and a calibrated 15" both with matte screens, and I use an Argyll print profiling suite which I assembled myself driving a big Barbieri, and Monaco Profiler with a DTP70, and I get not perfect but decent screen to print matches everywhere, more than good enough for my fine art work. Epson's canned black and white mode works well with the 3880 and their own papers, and again the laptop screens give me a decent preview although as always exact shadow tone appreciation is hard. Based on this I'd say that of you're lucky enough to have bought a laptop with a working screen, you can have a good closed-loop workflow with canned profiles, and skip buying anything more expensive than a screen calibrator. And, by the way, I consider my i1Display2 to be defective; the i1Pros I own work well.
Edmund
thanks Edmund
would your set up work for media print website etc etc?
as I understand you designed a great set up for in-house printing but what about the rest?
cheers
m
-
Interesting article on an Apple patent, regarding RGB and CMYK reproduction issues.
http://industry.bnet.com/technology/100071...rcial-graphics/ (http://industry.bnet.com/technology/10007133/apple-monitor-technology-could-change-all-commercial-graphics/)
-
thanks Edmund
would your set up work for media print website etc etc?
as I understand you designed a great set up for in-house printing but what about the rest?
cheers
m
Mark,
Once you get serious, there are the usual suspects (Eizo, Quato, NEC etc) but I think a recent iMac with an IPS screen is probably good enough for anything but the most color-critical soft-proofing, as you probably won't have access to a super-accurate press profile anyway. I use an Eizo when I need to check something really important.
Edmund