Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: PaulSchneider on March 04, 2010, 03:06:30 am
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Hi guys!
Since I'm considering buying a Hasselblad MFDB-system I just had a longer talk with my local sales rep with regard to DOF and bokeh of medium format lenses.
He told me that the 120 Macro lens from Hasselblad had a much shallower DOF than other HC lenses at NORMAL distances, such as portraits of people.
I don't quite believe this assertion.
Does it make any difference to the DOF of a 120mm medium format lens, when it is constructed to be used as a macro lens?
Thank you for any pointers ...
Regards
Paul
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As far as I know the DOF is created by the distance to your subject, the sensor size and the aperture.
It doesn't matter if it's a macro, a Hasselblad or a Mamiya lens, as long as you shoot from the same distance and the same aperture on the same format.
Maybe he means you can open up the lens more which would give a shallower DOF ?
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Hi guys!
Since I'm considering buying a Hasselblad MFDB-system I just had a longer talk with my local sales rep with regard to DOF and bokeh of medium format lenses.
He told me that the 120 Macro lens from Hasselblad had a much shallower DOF than other HC lenses at NORMAL distances, such as portraits of people.
Hi Paul,
In theory it is possible, but the differences between lenses used at shorter distances are usually not very significant. Especially on a macro lens one could wonder if a more shallow DOF is helpful. Whether the DOF is much shallower remains to be seen (it cannot be derived from the available info alone).
Because it's stated much more succinctly that I possibly could, allow me to quote Paul van Walree's excellent information when he summarises (http://toothwalker.org/optics/dof.html#dvim2):
A final wrap-up of the issue of a depth of field comparison at a constant image magnification and F-number is the following:
1.When for both lenses the object distance is much smaller than the hyperfocal distance, the depths of field are essentially the same.
2.When one or both object distances are not small with respect to the hyperfocal distance, the lens with the shorter focal length brings more depth of field.
3.If the lens designs are the same, points 1 and 2 are the whole story. If the lens designs (pupil magnifications) differ, point 2 still holds but point 1 must be reconsidered. Depending on their design either one of the lenses in the comparison can yield more DOF.
So the only way, besides field testing at a given common shooting distance to see if 2 lenses will give markedly different DOFs, is to measure the entrance pupil and exit pupil diameters of 2 lens designs. When the Pupil factor is markedly different, then there may be a difference in DOF at significantly shorter than Hyperfocal distances. Otherwise it's only the difference in magnification factor (together with one's preferred COC) that determines DOF at a constant aperture.
When comparing lenses with significantly different fields of view (FOV) one needs to consider the effects on out-of-focus (OOF) fore/backgrounds, but that's another matter.
Cheers,
Bart
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@Bart,
Correct but that difference should be very small when both lenses are for example a 120mm.
And not like he is let to believe an incredible difference....
On Bokeh that is possible of course.
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DOF is really only a convention as there is just one point where the lens is in focus. With really sharp lenses, one tends to identify the apex of the focus more readily in the image which leads to one to the impression that there is less DOF or that focus falls off faster IMHO. Another thing to consider is the size of the image circle the lens can produce. Lenses that can cover larger format or accommodate shift and tilt sometimes with a bigger image circle can sometimes have a more rapid falloff from focus to OOF and this can sometimes lead to the impression of smaller DOF.
I don't know about the lens in question but the older zeiss 120 macro lens that was used in the Rollei MF mount (and I think same in the hasselblad mounts, maybe others) had a big image circle. Certain all of these 120's mentioned are quite sharp.
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If I recall correctly the bokeh from this lens is not so attractive and gives a pentagram like shape.
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@Bart,
Correct but that difference should be very small when both lenses are for example a 120mm.
And not like he is let to believe an incredible difference....
Hi Frank,
Yes, I agree that it's unlikely to be a large difference at the intended (portrait) distances, if any. But I'm looking forward to the sales rep's proof which, by the sound of it, should be convincing .
Cheers,
Bart
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Hi guys!
Since I'm considering buying a Hasselblad MFDB-system I just had a longer talk with my local sales rep with regard to DOF and bokeh of medium format lenses.
He told me that the 120 Macro lens from Hasselblad had a much shallower DOF than other HC lenses at NORMAL distances, such as portraits of people.
I don't quite believe this assertion.
Does it make any difference to the DOF of a 120mm medium format lens, when it is constructed to be used as a macro lens?
Thank you for any pointers ...
Regards
Paul
It's true but it's also BS, sort of like making a big deal about low-fat lettuce. DOF is always shallower the closer the subject is to the camera, so if a lens is constructed as a macro and will therefore allow you to photograph closer subjects, the DOF will indeed be less when you focus close.
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DOF is really only a convention as there is just one point where the lens is in focus.
Hi Eric,
You are correct, but don't forget that in digital capture a sensel's physical dimensions put an upper limit to what can be resolved. When one needs to enlarge for large output sizes that becomes even more important. For such pixel accurate DOF determinations one can use the sensel pitch (or 1.5x that pitch) as the most critical COC for calculations.
Cheers,
Bart
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Full disclosure: my company sells Phase One and not Hasselblad.
There is exactly one answer to this question: do the test yourself and decide what you see.
FWIW here are downloadable files from a Phase One P45+H (same sensor as an H3D-39 - different electronics, firmware, UI, software etc) with a Phase One 120mm D Macro Lens and a Hasselblad HC120mm lens. Note the difference in diffraction response between the two lenses. I do not have shots from this test at wide open since this test was to illustrated how different optics often respond differently at higher aperture numbers.Phase One 120mm D vs. HC 120mm D (diffraction) (http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/)
Here is my off-the-top-of-my-head list of fast glass available for Phase One and for Hasselblad.
Usable Shallow DOF lenses with a Phase One back on a Hassy H body
Hasselblad HC 80mm f/2.8
Hasselblad HC 100mm f/2.2
Hasselblad HC 210mm f/4
Hasselbald HC 300mm f/4.5
Usable Shallow DOF lenses with a Phase One back on a Phase One or Mamiya body
Hasselblad FE110 f/2 (via easy to use adapter)
Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 (MF)
Phase One 80mm D f/2.8
Schneider 80mm D LS f/2.8
Schneider 110mm D LS /f2.8 (not shipping yet)
Phase One 150mm D f/2.8
Phase One 120mm D f/4 (MF)
Mamiya 150mm f/4 soft focus portrait lens (MF)
Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 (12 ft focus distance w/o extension tubes)
Usable Shallow DOF lenses with a Hasselblad back on a Hasselblad body
Hasselblad HC 80mm f/2.8
Hasselblad HC 100mm f/2.2
Hasselblad HC 210mm f/4
Hasselbald HC 300mm f/4.5
PLEASE chime in and add to the list.
I'm biased of course but my favorite shallow depth of field lens is the Phase One 150mm D f/2.8. On a DF body the focus is spot on, wicked sharp, and beautiful out of focus areas. The HC110mm/2.2 would be my second favorite. The FE100/2 lens is legendary but I've never had the pleasure of shooting with it myself.
If you're making the large investment of a medium format system I'd strongly suggest you also give a Phase One or Leaf dealer the opportunity to show you the advantages and disadvantages of those systems.* Make sure to evaluate workflow from start to finish, as you'll only get the best out of digital back if you process using the manufacturer's software - and there are some very large differences between Phase One's Capture One software and Hasselblad's Phocus software. Also check out the warranties, support policies, rental availability, upgrade paths (can you upgrade just the back or just the body or is it only possible to upgrade the entire kit), and what is involved in renting or buying a backup/replacement body should you need to (does the body have to be locked to the back at the factory or can you get one off-the-shelf), and the advantages/disadvantages of the philosophies of an open or closed system.
*I would say the same thing to anyone just looking at Phase One or Leaf that they would doing themselves a disservice not to look at the advantages/disadvantages of Hasselblad.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Perhaps this will help...
http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1663143/th...n_of_lenses.pdf (http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf)
David
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He told me that the 120 Macro lens from Hasselblad had a much shallower DOF than other HC lenses at NORMAL distances, such as portraits of people.
I'd be very curious to see a test that shows that with the same subject framing you would see less DOF in a HC120mm f/4 at f/4 shot than a HC100mm f/2.2 at f/2.2. That doesn't seem possible to me.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Perhaps this will help...
http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1663143/th...n_of_lenses.pdf (http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf)
David
What a great read; i only skimmed it, but printing it for light reading tonight!
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The FE100/2 lens is legendary but I've never had the pleasure of shooting with it myself.
Not sure what Hasselblad bodies you're talking about here, but the 110 F2 does not have a shutter in it. It's focal plane. So somewhere, you gotta have a shutter.
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Doug,
Not to dispute your expertise, but the V series FE110 is very usable on my Mamiya with Phase back, with a cheap chinese adapter; I don't know how and wether it works on the H. Bokeh is spectacular.
Edmund
Full disclosure: my company sells Phase One and not Hasselblad.
There is exactly one answer to this question: do the test yourself and decide what you see.
FWIW here are downloadable files from a Phase One P45+H (same sensor as an H3D-39 - different electronics, firmware, UI, software etc) with a Phase One 120mm D Macro Lens and a Hasselblad HC120mm lens. Note the difference in diffraction response between the two lenses. I do not have shots from this test at wide open since this test was to illustrated how different optics often respond differently at higher aperture numbers.Phase One 120mm D vs. HC 120mm D (diffraction) (http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/)
Here is my off-the-top-of-my-head list of fast glass available for Phase One and for Hasselblad.
Usable Shallow DOF lenses with a Phase One back on a Hassy H body
Hasselblad FE110 f/2 (via easy to use adapter)
Hasselblad HC 80mm f/2.8
Hasselblad HC 100mm f/2.2
Hasselblad HC 210mm f/4
Hasselbald HC 300mm f/4.5
Usable Shallow DOF lenses with a Phase One back on a Phase One or Mamiya body
Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 (MF)
Phase One 80mm D f/2.8
Schneider 80mm D LS f/2.8
Schneider 110mm D LS /f2.8 (not shipping yet)
Phase One 150mm D f/2.8
Phase One 120mm D f/4 (MF)
Mamiya 150mm f/4 soft focus portrait lens (MF)
Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 (12 ft focus distance w/o extension tubes)
Usable Shallow DOF lenses with a Hasselblad back on a Hasselblad body
(via easy to use adapter)
Hasselblad FE 110 f/2 (via easy to use adapter)
Hasselblad HC 80mm f/2.8
Hasselblad HC 100mm f/2.2
Hasselblad HC 210mm f/4
Hasselbald HC 300mm f/4.5
PLEASE chime in and add to the list.
I'm biased of course but my favorite shallow depth of field lens is the Phase One 150mm D f/2.8. On a DF body the focus is spot on, wicked sharp, and beautiful out of focus areas. The HC110mm/2.2 would be my second favorite. The FE100/2 lens is legendary but I've never had the pleasure of shooting with it myself.
If you're making the large investment of a medium format system I'd strongly suggest you also give a Phase One or Leaf dealer the opportunity to show you the advantages and disadvantages of those systems.* Make sure to evaluate workflow from start to finish, as you'll only get the best out of digital back if you process using the manufacturer's software - and there are some very large differences between Phase One's Capture One software and Hasselblad's Phocus software. Also check out the warranties, support policies, rental availability, upgrade paths (can you upgrade just the back or just the body or is it only possible to upgrade the entire kit), and what is involved in renting or buying a backup/replacement body should you need to (does the body have to be locked to the back at the factory or can you get one off-the-shelf), and the advantages/disadvantages of the philosophies of an open or closed system.
*I would say the same thing to anyone just looking at Phase One or Leaf that they would doing themselves a disservice not to look at the advantages/disadvantages of Hasselblad.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Oh my god, what can I say - I'm completely amazed by the sheer amount of knowledge here. You guys are amazing. Thank you. Actually this sales rep was quite young and my guess is he really didn't know what he was talking about. But when asked which lens would be a must have with the hasselblad system he unequivocally stated that the macro really outstanding.
I guess he meant that I can focus closer which naturally yields a narrower dof.
If I have the budget to at max. by 2 to three lenses at the beginning - which ones would you recommend in what order? Taking into consideration that I want to be able to make beautiful portraits with pleasing bokeh as well as general purpose photography?
So far I'm thinking of getting the macro, the 50-110 zoom and possibly the 28mm later on.
Is this a good combo for starters?
Regards
Paul
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So far I'm thinking of getting the macro, the 50-110 zoom and possibly the 28mm later on.
Is this a good combo for starters?
Regards
Paul
Hi Paul
Certainly a good combo. I assume you do a fair bit of closeup stuff hence the desire for the macro? If you only have occasional need you could just use extension tubes.. A few other random thoughts. The zoom is pretty heavy/bulky (as is the macro), they are both big lenses to handhold. For portraits the 100 2.2 is IMO simply fantastic. The 28mm is a great performer. The new 35-90 zoom has really fast AF but at some cost..
More to think about.
Regards
Nick-T
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Not sure what Hasselblad bodies you're talking about here, but the 110 F2 does not have a shutter in it. It's focal plane. So somewhere, you gotta have a shutter.
Not to dispute your expertise, but the V series FE110 is very usable on my Mamiya with Phase back, with a cheap chinese adapter; I don't know how and wether it works on the H. Bokeh is spectacular.
Sorry guys; copy paste error. Of course the Hasselblad Focal Plane FE 110/2 lens only works with bodies that have shutters. So you can use it with a Phase One body but not with any of the Hasselblad H-series backs or bodies.
I love you guys for being that quick on the draw!
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Hi,
You are probably right. DOF is mainly a function of focal length and aperture, although optical construction can also affect DOF. I would presume that the differences between optical designs is very minor at normal focusing distances. Than there is the matter of bokeh.
Best regards
Erik
Hi guys!
Since I'm considering buying a Hasselblad MFDB-system I just had a longer talk with my local sales rep with regard to DOF and bokeh of medium format lenses.
He told me that the 120 Macro lens from Hasselblad had a much shallower DOF than other HC lenses at NORMAL distances, such as portraits of people.
I don't quite believe this assertion.
Does it make any difference to the DOF of a 120mm medium format lens, when it is constructed to be used as a macro lens?
Thank you for any pointers ...
Regards
Paul
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Thank you guys again for your insights! What a great forum!
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The way it was explained to me many moons ago by a Crown GrapHic guy, depth of field is really just acceptable unsharpness, only what the lens is focused on is truly sharp.
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The way it was explained to me many moons ago by a Crown GrapHic guy, depth of field is really just acceptable unsharpness, only what the lens is focused on is truly sharp.
Hi Peter,
While that may be somewhat true for extremely fine grained film, there is an upper limit to "truly sharp". For one, the lens has it's limitations to resolve detail. Second the capture medium (sensor/film) has it's limits, most notably the sensel dimensions set an abrupt limit (smoother transition with AA-filtered sensors). And third, the viewing distance imposes a limit on resolving (micro-)contrast beyond a certain viewing distance.
They all influence the combined system MTF, with the 'worst' contributor of them having the most influence.
However, the OP's question was more about comparing a specific lens to similar ones, and if/how that affects the DOF when leaving the other variables unchanged.
Cheers,
Bart