Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Dick Roadnight on March 01, 2010, 05:41:38 am
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This site is global, but for some business matters National Institutions might be the logical place to look for answers.
What does your institution do for you? e.g...
Legal assistance /advice
PM and marketing / finding clients
Artistic training
Camera/lighting training
Training for specialties like weddings, architecture...
Equipment sourcing / selection / finding support
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What does your institution do for you? e.g...
In my case ASMP
Legal assistance /advice
ASMP has an attorney, but with 6000 members, he generally can't provide advice to members on an individual basis.
PM and marketing / finding clients
This is what reps or a photographer's own promotional efforts are supposed to acheive. I don't know what PM is, but the only thing ASMP does in this regard is their Find a Photographer function, which isn't too useful to me.
Artistic training
Nope. This is what art school is for.
Camera/lighting training
Nope. This is what photography school and assisting are for.
Training for specialties like weddings, architecture...
ASMP doesn't cater to wedding photographers, nor is this sort of training part of their mission.
Equipment sourcing / selection / finding support
Nope. This is what producers and B&H are for.
The ASMP Mission Statement is:
To protect and promote the interests of photographers whose work is for publication.
To promote high professional standards and ethics.
To cultivate friendship and mutual understanding between photographers.
It's purpose is not to teach people how to become photographers. It is to teach them how to be smart business people, to advocate for them on a national level, and to encourage photographers to help each other. To this end, I wish ASMP had a forum, because it would fulfill two of those mission items. Which relates with my separate post...
So in the case of ASMP, they don't do anything on your list. I don't know if there is an organization for commercial photographers that does.
David
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Hi
For the US how does the ASMP compare to the APA. We have moved back to NY & will join one of them.
Cheers Denis
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This site is global, but for some business matters National Institutions might be the logical place to look for answers.
What does your institution do for you? e.g...
PM and marketing / finding clients
Artistic training
Aren't you the guy that just advised firing all your clients, if they didn't see things your way? Judging by your question above, I guess I can see how your business viewpoint is working out for you.
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I've always found that belonging to any institutions is a monumental waste of time and money.
I was once almost persuaded to join one of them but I found that the questions they asked about my work, proof of work, proof of invoicing, contracts, etc, was rather inquisitive and distasteful to someone like me who prefers to keep these things to myself.
Why should I give confidential information to an institution who wants my money to do exactly what?
How do I know that this information is not going to be used in a way that I can't control?
In any case, I dislike being one of the herd. Being a photographer is a lonely business, in the sense that you find things out by yourself from many different sources. You don't need to be told by an institution how much to charge, or what the copyright laws are in your country, or how to market yourself, or how to shoot in a particular style, or whether you need to have a rep, or hire a studio or buy or lease.
These are things that you learn as you go along, and they differ greatly from person to person.
A friend of mine belonged to three organisations, the types where you add a few letters after your name. Didn't do him any good, he was always broke.
As for giving back to the business of photography, by sharing knowledge or experiences, I'm all for it, but up to a point. For instance, I wouldn't share the specifics or how I shoot this or that, best to find out by yourself and learn some photography in the process.
E.
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As for giving back to the business of photography, by sharing knowledge or experiences, I'm all for it, but up to a point. For instance, I wouldn't share the specifics or how I shoot this or that, best to find out by yourself and learn some photography in the process.
E.
So instead of learning from the mistakes of other you would rather doom yourself to commit those same mistakes? Or instead of having new photographers work within the professional model already established, you would rather have them screw it up by not charging appropriately and giving away too many rights?
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So instead of learning from the mistakes of other you would rather doom yourself to commit those same mistakes? Or instead of having new photographers work within the professional model already established, you would rather have them screw it up by not charging appropriately and giving away too many rights?
Making mistakes is part of the process of learning and somebody's mistake is another person's success.
I'll give you one example. The guy who says his direct mailing campaign has yielded zero response. Immediately you have a response from another guy who says he has had tremendous success from a limited run of direct mail. The Institution will say; Direct mail, if properly targeted, can be a very effective way to draw new business. Well, we all know that!
But how do you find out what's best for you? You do it yourself (or not) and you do it in your own way, using your own individuality.
Another example: new photographer. Doesn't have a clue how much to charge. Institution gives some guidance. Brilliant, lets charge 5 grand a day, plus advertising usage, plus expenses and mark up, digital processing fees, studio and equipment hire, etc. Grand total, 15 grand. Clients budget is $900. Does he take on the job or not? Of course not! We need more martyrs to the cause.
Let the other photographer in the queue take on the job instead and welcome to the real world. And the sad case is that the Institution can do nothing about it.
E
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And I hate people who work for nothing. I regularly get calls for quotes where the punter on the phone asks: Is this the price for the 100 images? No, I say, this is the price for one single image. Silence.
People are working for nothing, it's unsustainable, but they still do it.
The fact that there are so many 'photographers' working for nothing means that the Institutions have done nothing of any value about this matter, the matter that really counts: money in your own pocket.
This is as bad now as it was 20 years ago, there will always be masses of people with no business sense and a camera in their hands. To think that an Institution is going to stop this from happening is a little naive, or maybe wishful thinking.
E
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or maybe wishful thinking.
Education is always good, especially when you're a young photographer, but let's be honest -- in this world of commercial photography, it's the Wild Wild West out there. There are no rules. And there are guys, (maybe even your friends), that'll look you right in the eye, and say they're playing by the rules, and in the end, you hear stories about easy copyright giveaway by them. It is total anarchy out there, and getting worse every day, due to the ease of digital cameras.
Remember the days, not long ago, where if you missed it by more than 2/3 of a stop, the job was blown? Remember that sweat on the back of your neck, standing there judging Clip Tests? And then realizing that you should have dropped in a .5 Magenta instead of a .25, and that there was no AutoWhiteBalance or no LCD? Or when you'd shoot a polaroid in January and try to get it into your armpit, fast, but still, it was forty units of Cyan, unusable? Those days are gone, and now, everybody's a photographer.
Wild wild west. And no one with any education or sense of business history.
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Remember the days, not long ago, where if you missed it by more than 2/3 of a stop, the job was blown?
Oh yes, I remember the days only too well. Bracketing f1/3 four sheets of 8x10 was rather expensive, but I would only normally process one or two(my guesstimate) and would keep the other ones unprocessed just in case. Unless the budget was great. And do you remember the chemical smell of the Polaroids, rather intoxicating, never really liked it, specially when they leaked and messed up the rollers.
But wild west as it is now (as you don't need to have the same knowledge), the possibilities of making money are still here, at least for a few!
E
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It amazes me that some of you still believe that any business can survive by following organize guidelines and rules. Aside from following laws there is no rules in business. The only strategy in business is to bring profit.
It is silly to believe that photography is a special field with loyalty among business owners. You can't try to force Hair Salon owners to charge $75 a hair cut or press them not to offer free bangs or neck trimming between the cuts. You can not stop $6 Hair Cut Place opening right next to you. In real world you do what you have to do to survive or you become yet another closed business.
By the time any guides are published they are already an old story. Free market is the only rule. How can you possibly hope to exceed in business by doing what you told and following others.
Any business manager with an idea like this would be fired right on a spot.
You guys hate photogs that are charging less than you and hope that by educating them they will get less jobs and some of the jobs will come back to you. Funny.
It is not Wild West it is economy 101. Charge what you can, charge what you worth, adjust your opinion about what you worth frequently, survive.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
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"Your attitude is worse than your byline which BTW throws me off line."
Huh? He makes perfect sense to me.
"For Christ's sake, lawyers have better comradery and activity with their trade orgs. What does that say about photographers as a whole?"
Yeah but they aren't the competition to each other...without an opposing lawyer there would be no way to stretch a simple job into a two year long deal. Lawyers love other lawyers....
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Keith,
I have no attitude other than I live in real world and recognize and adjust to constant changes. I have been in business of doing successful business for over 25 years. If your recipe works for you then this is fine with me.
You have a right to preach to others your believes but they also have a right to hear my side of the story with proven record that it works.
www.AndreNapier.com
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It’s curious that those people here with the most negative things to say about the photographers’ organizations are those who apparently have never belonged to any of them.
Which explains why they have so many ridiculous assumptions about these organizations, as well.
But I guess I felt the same way before I joined ASMP. I thought I was one sharp businessman, and who were these photographers who were going to “educate” me and preach to me about the “right” way to do business? But then I got to know a couple of ASMP members just from seeing them at the lab and in my building where my studio was, and they were really good guys, and very helpful, and I looked at their work and it was outstanding. And they were making a hell of a lot more money than I was, on serious jobs. Oh- and they never “preached” to me at all.
So I joined, and it turned out I wasn’t anywhere near as sharp as I thought I was. The year I joined ASMP was the year my business finally started going somewhere. Eventually, I realized that turning down bad jobs paid off in many ways. I was shooting better work, for nicer clients, for a lot more money. I can think of several instances where following some of the lessons I learned in ASMP about contracts, copyright, negotiating, usage, etc, paid off in tens of thousands of dollars.
I never once encountered a situation where I was “pressured” to follow any “rules” or “guidelines”. This is a huge misconception. And to be paranoid about “the organization” trying to pump your brain for your brilliant deep dark secrets that they will then do uh, bad things with, or something… Holy cow.
E says: “I was once almost persuaded to join one of them but I found that the questions they asked about my work, proof of work, proof of invoicing, contracts, etc, was rather inquisitive and distasteful to someone like me who prefers to keep these things to myself.” Smells like BS to me. The only thing ASMP required of me to join was proof that I had been published (like a tearsheet), since it is an organization for photographers who shoot for publication.
He also says, “Being a photographer is a lonely business…” Well, it doesn’t have to be. You just decided that for yourself. Very macho. Very lone-wolf. There is nothing “herd like” about any gathering of ASMP members, I can tell you that. There are photographers there covering the whole spectrum.
BTW, I think it’s great that Keith belongs to an organization and believes “Ask not what your 'institution' can do for you, ask what you can do for your institution.” I know a lot of photographers do. But that’s never been my thing. I’ve always belonged for one reason: for my own self interest. I get a lot from what my local chapter has to offer, and I get a lot from the great relationships I’ve built over the years. I just called a fellow member today to bounce a usage issue off him and get some feedback. I try to give back as much as I can, but it’s not my purpose for belonging.
David
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All this bad talk about photographer's organizations and suggesting to other photographers to do what you think is best without any concern about the industry, horrible and stupid.
When I first started out (and I am still a baby, a toddler) I had no idea what I was doing. The price I was planning on charging was a third of what I charge now and I thought it was a lot. I started a marketing campaign that I thought was good and looked good. And I had no idea about the idea of charging for the right to use my images and increasing the price as the usage required increased. But in the first month I went out on my own, I joined the ASMP as an emerging associate, had to be no more then $125 for the year and I figured what the hell. I am so glad I did.
In that first month the ASMP offered a 3 hour talk in my area on marketing. I came away from that realizing that nothing about the marketing campaigned I started was professional looking. I also got some very good ideas on how to improve it. Also, in that month, I received a copy of best business practices in which I really learned about copyrights and how to control them. Not to mention other photographers more experienced then me in the ASMP helped me on issues like what to charge and what rights to include in my standard package, when to turn down business for the better of your career. The ASMP has been very helpful to me. I even had a damn good AP offer to have me observe a shoot of his in which I learned a hell of a lot. I have found that other APs in the area who are members of the ASMP had no problem talking to me about the industry and the ins and outs even though I am a "competitor."
It is very nice camaraderie across the board with everyone in the ASMP and I am glad to have it.
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But I guess I felt the same way before I joined ASMP. I thought I was one sharp businessman, and who were these photographers who were going to “educate” me and preach to me about the “right” way to do business? But then I got to know a couple of ASMP members just from seeing them at the lab and in my building where my studio was, and they were really good guys, and very helpful, and I looked at their work and it was outstanding. And they were making a hell of a lot more money than I was, on serious jobs. Oh- and they never “preached” to me at all.
This is not about money. This is not about Price Fixing. This is not about setting rates. Let's get clear about that. This is about education.
I joined ASMP early on in my career, when I was a kid. There was a new chapter forming in my city, and there was one photographer here who put it all together to form the chapter. There was much good feeling. There was much sharing. Hell, there was even a regular Monday night volleyball game.
We are talking "C level" city here. Many small photographers, very few with much business education at all. So many people came together, and learned about copyright, business practices, etc. Much was shared, on the record and off. It builds confidence, even in the older guys. You gain confidence in negotiating, when an agency comes at you and wants Everything and the Kitchen Sink too. You learn to stand your ground. It was good for everyone. All this education does, yes, lead to profit. You learn to not bend over and give the house away, when someone is dangling a nice P.O. in front of your face.
There was also a traveling "road show" with Emily Vickers (of Jay Maisel studio). It toured the country and I attended that with my rep. We learned a massive amount of business information there. All that's brought back and turned into profit.
Photographers aren't licensed, like architects, or engineers, or lawyers, or dentists, (or cosmetologists). In photography, you just flip out your AMEX at B&H, and the next day, you hang out your shingle, and you're a photographer in business. APA, ASMP, EP all provide solid working information in how to deal with magazines, ad agencies, and direct clients. Is it perfect? No. Is any Trade Organization perfect? Probably not. But it's better than learning nothing at all. It gives you information to be able to speak the language.
Now, having said that, the slap in the face that I found, was that only a tiny majority of commercial photographers belonged to APA or ASMP at that time, (or now). So in effect, you're competing with people who'll simply shoot a job and hand over the RAWS now, with no usage parameters whatsoever. You have people who won't even process their own files -- shoot the job, burn the raws, and wave goodbye. NO CRAFT. No professionalism. Just going for the quick profit, and tomorrow is another day. Thank God that bridges don't collapse if a photographer does a half-ass job, or that roofs don't collapse, or that no one is poisoned, or that your teeth don't fall out. After all, "they're just pictures". But that does not invalidate the need to learn about business practices, and how to deal with employees, and insurance, and liability, and location fees, and licensing issues, and usage. ASMP and APA do not serve that need completely, but they do as good a job as any Trade Organization. I'd recommend it to any and all young photographers, (in addition to full-time assisting, so that you get closer to the inner workings of a good studio business).
Just one opinion.
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You have people who won't even process their own files -- shoot the job, burn the raws, and wave goodbye. NO CRAFT. No professionalism. Just going for the quick profit, and tomorrow is another day.
I like to have control over the whole process end to end, but...
If you have 10s of 000s invested in camera kit it would seem logical to use it every day and delegate everything else, or have 6 photographers using the kit one day a week each!
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I am at the tail end of participating in this forum because there is little to nothing to learn here anymore. This is the first discussion here in a long time that is of some substance.
I am glad that you are still here, and letting us learn from your experience.
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Some UK photographer's institutes take anybody's money, offer courses for those of us who have not been to photo school, and allow you to get qualifications through submission of work.
I imagine that, having become a fellow of e.g. the British Institute of Professional Photographers, one could then join e.g. the Master Photographer's Association.
...but do the customers give a damn if you have letters after your name?
Are there any Institutes with any or many members with top-end Medium Format Digital View Cameras?
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Are there any Institutes with any or many members with top-end Medium Format Digital View Cameras?
I don't believe there are many like you Dick.
Would love to see some of the stuff you are creating with the view camera and the Metzs.
Nick-T
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What a great discussion. I was about to start this topic myself.
ASMP site is great. They offer a lot of useful information even to non-members. I guess this is out of desperation because of all those thousands of photographers who emerged in the last few years and unknowingly destroy the industry.
I wonder if you guys have any thoughts on Professional Photographers of Canada and their provincial branches? Or ASMP would be the leader?
Thanks for the great information!
Alex
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I don't believe there are many like you Dick.
Would love to see some of the stuff you are creating with the view camera and the Metzs.
Nick-T
My health is now much improved, and I hope to get the H4D-60 this month... so I do not want to spend much time and trouble getting the 50 set up.
...and I have 4 1,500 ws elinchromes as well as the Metzs
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I guess this is out of desperation because of all those thousands of photographers who emerged in the last few years and unknowingly destroy the industry.
Alex
Let me start with stating that I love photography. I am 47 and I love it since I was a child.
In my opinion they did not destroy the industry they just changed it. In order to fully understand the changes one has to ask what defines professional photographer. Last time I checked I did not find any requirements of knowledge, talent, ethics, artistry, formal education, belonging to organizations or passing any exams. The only definition was that you have to make 50% of your income from photography.
Having said that professional photographer is not any different from a professional singer. There are people who sing in a shower, sing at a wedding, sing at a club and there are those that sell platinum albums.
They are defined by their talent and their marketing ability. Anybody can make a picture anybody can sing. Value of photo image or a song is define by market demand.
In case of commercial photography value of an image is directly related to the impact it makes on advertising campaign. Hiring company pays for one's talent and if they can obtain the same quality of talent for less they will go for it. If one's talent can not be matched one can demand top pay and will get it. Times has changed. Demand has changed. Technology has changed. There is no stopping young talents whose ONLY option to enter the overcrowded photography market is to lower the prices and offer more than the older generation did. Am I happy about it? Hell not! Can I change it? Hell not! I can only adjust or disappear.
If a company that used to hire me chooses to go with 20 years old photographer with 5D it means that I do something wrong or maybe that the kid does something right. Maybe he is the one who will lead the 21 century and I am just the older generation who does not adapt to new reality. Maybe my opinion about my talent was overrated or maybe new reality is a entirely like the Chinese toys.
20 years ago the only way to watch a video at home was to buy a $1000.00 VCR and to rent a cassette for 24 hours. There was your neighborhood Video Store. Along the way came Blockbusters and Hollywood Videos
offering 5 days rentals, no late fees, timeless rentals. Neighborhoods stores disappeared overnight. Along the way came Netflix and it goes on. Unless we accept and adopt the changes we will disappear as well.
Old generation historically disapproved of the ways of new generation but at the end it is always called progress.
Andre Napier
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In order to fully understand the changes one has to ask what defines professional photographer. Last time I checked I did not find any requirements of knowledge, talent, ethics, artistry, formal education, belonging to organizations or passing any exams. The only definition was that you have to make 50% of your income from photography.
Andre Napier
If a part-time professional photographer is thinking about going pro, and giving up his day job he might benefit considerably from membership of a pro. photo. inst. ... even if only pointing out to him that it is an over-subscribed industry and don't give up your day job if you have a mortgage to pay.
Why only take people on when they have burnt their boats and got established?
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I a part-time professional photographer is thinking about going pro, and giving up his day job he might benefit considerably from membership of a pro. photo. inst. ... even if only pointing out to him that it is an over-subscribed industry and don't give up your day job if you have a mortgage to pay.
Why only take people on when they have burnt their boats and got established?
Now is not a very good time to start a new business in photography, this is all about contacts, and you gain contacts once you've been around for a while and people know about you and recommend you for what you have to offer.
I went fully self employed only when my income from photography started to exceed what I was getting from my regular job. I waited till I had repeat clients, not just one-offs.
It will help a lot if your friend has something unique to offer, coupled with a lot of self confidence, but most importantly an air of competence and professionalism, i.e. you have to have something about your personality, the way you talk and the way you conduct your business that makes clients want to use you.
A photographer's institution won't give you any of that, believe me, I have had friends with lots of letters after their names who don't posses the ingredients necessary to succeed in business, any business, not just photography.
In any case, paying a year subscription is less than a good night out, so if it makes your friend happy...
E
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Now is not a very good time to start a new business in photography, this is all about contacts, and you gain contacts once you've been around for a while and people know about you and recommend you for what you have to offer.
I went fully self employed only when my income from photography started to exceed what I was getting from my regular job. I waited till I had repeat clients, not just one-offs.
It will help a lot if your friend has something unique to offer, coupled with a lot of self confidence, but most importantly an air of competence and professionalism, i.e. you have to have something about your personality, the way you talk and the way you conduct your business that makes clients want to use you.
A photographer's institution won't give you any of that, believe me, I have had friends with lots of letters after their names who don't posses the ingredients necessary to succeed in business, any business, not just photography.
In any case, paying a year subscription is less than a good night out, so if it makes your friend happy...
E
It's me I am talking about, but I am retired, so I do not have to decide when to give up employment.
I am working very much on the idea of offering something unique, an will try to specialize in anything you cannot do with a DSLR, and a set of electronic-shuttered Schneider Apo-Digitars will let me tackle e.g. work that needs a shutter-beam and a full range of movements.
It might be a good time to buy used kit... but new kit is expensive with the pound cheap compared to the Euro.
I thought I would accumulate a stock of good landscape/pictorial while I am getting up to speed and building up the commercial side.
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I couldn't agree more.
Only one client/agency/agent/publisher... has ever asked me what camera or format I use and that was a camera manufacturer who simply wanted confirmation that I had used their product.
Yup. The only time a client asks about gear is when the AB is a photo nut. A good friend, an AD at a big agency, loves photography and loves to talk cameras. Other than him, no one cares.
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Quite an interesting thread... I've got to say, every time I see the title pop up I think of a line in an old Tom Waits song- "Marriage is a great institution, but who wants to live in an institution?"
I started a commercial studio in the late '70s. I was shooting for a newspaper and weddings when I was in High School, in the early and mid '70s. I continued until around 2000. I had some good, national-scale clients, I did OK. ...but one of the reasons I shut the studio down was that I felt the industry was starting to reap the results of long years of selling itself down the long-term river for some seriously self-centered, short-sighted, and greed-based goals.
I was always in the "lone gunslinger" business model, I didn't even really like working with assistants and the local ASMP and other organizations seemed completely ineffectual at best and like a glorified photo club at worst. Towards the end of my studio days the APA started up and it showed promise, but by that time I really didn't take much notice.
I can point to a few examples to illustrate my dismay... the recent sale of an amateur image to Time for a cover usage, for $50. In the '90s there was this story in PDN- a couple actually. One was about how photographers shouldn't mind that their dayrates had stayed level for 20 years, because "they have such a great lifestyle". The other was a story about a photographer shooting for the then-new PhotoDisc. It was when they started assigning clip-stock work as a complete buyout and this photographer was gushing about getting to shoot this stuff at $5000/day with absolutely no regard for the implications of this type of work. (By my guess, every disc he shot at $5000/day put about 100 photographers out of work.) I canceled my PDN subscription then, and never renewed...
Back when I started, the idea of an association or, dare I say it, a union, dictating standards and practices was abhorrent to me. Having a professional association helping me with insurance and legal issues seemed nice but not worth the white noise. Looking back, I'd say that is my biggest regret about how the industry worked. Every little branch on the photography tree treats copyright, use, fee structure and standards in it's own way. Every photographer seems to vehemently rail against anything threatening their independence... yet I feel the state of our industry now is where we are because of this attitude.
And I really don't have a solution to offer...
I think maybe a year ago I started a thread here on file delivery standards... it got to be a pretty spirited discussion, but, in fact, many common conclusions were reached. I proposed we take everything that was said and try to establish a set of community standards. The thread immediately died.
It was a little comical, but still, it's how things seem to go in these discussions... I've seen it for over three decades now. It would seem to me that, in this time especially where everyone seems to think that they can pick up a camera and charge money for photography, the professional community would want to band together and establish standards, policies, credentials... but I don't see it ever happening.
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I just found that, as a young photographer coming into the business, there was a great amount of information at ASMP and EP. You just use what you want out of it and discard the rest; it's all about your commitment to doing business in a way that fits into your clients' industry standards. You learn how to speak your clients' language. (And that leads to profit).
After my initial bonding with other ASMP members in my own town, I later discovered that it was not this way in other cities. In the larger markets, there seemed to be much more paranoia and not many photographers talked amongst themselves. Chicago seemed to be the worst, followed by LA, and then NYC. In those cities, it was every man for himself, for the most part.
I guess photographers rank right in there between musicians and fine artists, when it comes to a general willingness to learn about business practices. Honestly, many seem to actually take pride in being the lone wolf, and maintaining their boastful, defiant ignorance. That, to me, is what leads to this Wild Wild West mentality. I guess if photographers were destined to work in office buildings, and run with the herd, there might be a different climate, but so many photographers that I know would not be seen dead trying to learn about business, or the history of how photographers before them fought for copyright. I never understood it -- why the threat of showing up and learning how to sync your business up to the manner that their (desired) clients worked, in order to speak intelligently when Estimating. Yet, there they were, with their tight black jeans and sunglasses, still sharing a 2-BR apartment with two other guys in Brooklyn, trying to make rent each month.
The funny part, (not funny ha-ha), was that anytime that some client used one of their precious pictures without permission, or copied something, or ran past usage parameters, these loser photographers were the first one to stand up and start screaming that "ASMP ought to do something to help them", when they never joined anything ever, or never learned how to protect themselves. I used to get phone calls asking for advice in these situations, and then Caller ID was invented, and that solved everything. Good riddance.
I have thrown in the towel on photographers ever uniting. I'm back to every man for himself. If you're young, maybe good to join ASMP or APA, and learn the basics, but just don't put on your pollyanna glasses, and think that everyone else is playing by the same rules.
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There are may things that would be different in the ideal world of photography.
-In the ideal world we would charge a decent fee, clients would always comply with copyright rules, we would be paid on time, at the point when we deliver the work.
-In the ideal world we would have some competition, just enough to push us to do things differently or better, but not too much to worry us about loosing clients to other photographers.
-In the ideal world, we would be artists, we would only do work that demands creativity and the routine and boring images would be the job for the apprentice, as part of his 7 years of slavery needed to qualify to enter this sacred profession.
-In an ideal world, cameras that the general public could use would only produce blurry 10x10 pixel images, professional cameras would only be sold to qualified members for vast amounts of money and they would only be triggered by optometrics that recognised the said photographer, so they could not be sold in the black market to anyone trying to set up business and undercut us.
-In an ideal world, art directors would not be called art directors, they would be called mingling in-betweens wanting to take their cut by talking endless rubbish, they would be confined to the vacuous room, together with any clients who dared mention anything like "can we try this" at the end of a long day.
-In an ideal world, photographers talking about equipment would have the police confiscate it for a week every time that the bokeh of a lens was called into question, or pixels being rectangular instead of square, or LCD's being frozen in time. Talks about image noise would warrant public flogging, a lash for every square cm of noise in the red channel and 10 lashes for talk of noise in the blue channel.
-In the ideal world, models with one zit out of place, one pimple, one erroneous twist of the lips, a single indulgence in something called food, one "I don't get out of bed for less than 10 thousand dollars" and they would be history, so that photographers would only have real models at their disposal, retouchers would not be necessary, as they just leach the budget every time they press the macro button to remove blemishes instantly to give us the plastic skin so sought after by those in the know.
But we don't live in the ideal world and never will, so instead let us contemplate our profits being eroded, our creativity being surplus to requirements, our cameras outperforming the paltry demands of the World Wide Web by a factor of 877.77777K. Let us have a thought for those who joined the profession by studying for a degree which taught them the art of copy/pasting from past and present, and as for those who studied nothing but made plenty, let us imitate their ways so that we all become wealthy and start buying these turbo charged HD-40s or 65LVs or P60s or whatever camera that sounds expensive so that the general public can separate the men from the boys.
The thing is...I don't really like institutions, so I'm throwing a tantrum.
E
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I dont like institutions that tell me what to do. I do like groups that offer suggestions on how to do things which will help me. I consider the ASMP to be the latter. If you see it as the former, I do know what to tell you.
As a former high school teacher, I know that some students just do not like school and insist rebelling against it. My first year teaching I thought why would they do this? Do they know it is hurting them; do they realize how much it will set them back? Will they change before it is to late? Well, some people just need to learn the hard way even if it will destroy them and there is nothing you can do about it.
As a student I like looking at information where ever it may be and try to learn from it. See the mistakes others have made before me, learn how to avoid them. Look at the successes others have had, try to emulate and improve upon them. As a teacher I do the same thing in reverse. This is the fastest way to learn.
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Interesting, I had the same experience- but I hated school as a student, and now that I teach I'm saying, what the heck is wrong with these kids?
BUT, that led me back to when I started my studio... a big part of it was me making my statement (as a young man in the '70s) that I could make a career without the big corporations and organizations, it was a statement of independence and self-sufficiency. "Cutting off my nose to spite my face" is what my grammy would have called it... but I'm not so sure that it's too uncommon in this business.
I dont like institutions that tell me what to do. I do like groups that offer suggestions on how to do things which will help me. I consider the ASMP to be the latter. If you see it as the former, I do know what to tell you.
As a former high school teacher, I know that some students just do not like school and insist rebelling against it. My first year teaching I thought why would they do this? Do they know it is hurting them; do they realize how much it will set them back? Will they change before it is to late? Well, some people just need to learn the hard way even if it will destroy them and there is nothing you can do about it.
As a student I like looking at information where ever it may be and try to learn from it. See the mistakes others have made before me, learn how to avoid them. Look at the successes others have had, try to emulate and improve upon them. As a teacher I do the same thing in reverse. This is the fastest way to learn.
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-In the ideal world
I can echo most peoples sentiments here with my experience of organizations in photography. I've belonged to the DSVC Dallas, ASMP Dallas, APA Chicago, APA LA, AFAEP London (later the AOP), SF (I think the APA but don't remember), New York . . . (nothing), the EP and I've joined all of them let it lapse, rejoined sometimes, usually don't participate, though at times participated with effort.
The one thing I've always noticed is the talent at the very top of our industry doesn't seem to participate in the any of the major organizations, unless they are invited to speak or invited to speak on the request of a sponsored equipment maker. Never heard of Avedon in the center row of an ASMP meeting, or Annie hosting lunch for APA/NY (I could be wrong), but it seems at the top of every genre the lone wolf, every person for his/herself syndrome is evident.
As far as changing the industry for the better, no organization is going to force better and more lucrative conditions on a client. No organization is going to make their members sign a blood oath with financial penalties never to give away usage, never to shoot stock, never to work for less this year than last.
I think most of the major trade groups and their members, APA, ASMP, EP have good intentions but eventually their focus is inward. They look at their plight, rather than ways to really improve the profession.
There are big changes in our industry, especially through web and video play. Last week shooting on a rental stage, the three adjoining stages were primarily still projects and all had signs on the wall, "quiet, video in progress".
Our project had two video crews.
I know Adorama has 34 5d2's in stock and the 34 5d2's are always out in rental shooting motion.
So with that in mind it's a changing business and when you begin to negotiate usage . . . pricing web play as the highest number usually doesn't fly in today's world, though web will probably have the largest viewership numbers.
This is obviously something we will all be forced to address and soon and if any trade orgranization can change this . . . I'd be surprised.
Still, in my view the only way to change the profession is from ground level. Everybody wants someone else to do it for them, but if you really want to work in better conditions, be treated with more respect, then up your professional game. Pay crew on time, deliver more than requested, live to your word and treat everyone, client and crew with equal respect. In other words operate a professional business . . . get that message out to your present and potential clients and you will be treated in kind.
You don't need a trade organization to learn this. Go to work for two months in any successful business, from restaurant to grip house and you will find that the companies with success follow the basic tenants of good business.
This biz, or any of the arts can give you a front row seat to life or drop you to your knees, sometimes within the same week, but I've found the only way to persevere is to move forward and look past group thinking.
On the other hand, I think trade organizations are good, if only because they are like 12 step programs. Most of us may live in a loner's world, but at least you know your not really alone with the issues.
IMO
BC
P.S. Now on a lighter note:
The other day William and went up da road to Brown's, to have a cup-o'-t, and a few of them little cucumber sammiches.
Willy said he was a big believer in organizations. Said he was in the AOP since birth.
I said really, since birth? We'll I was a member of the AOP and . . . crash, Willy dropped his cup of Earl Grey.
He said "excuse me but how could you . . . choke, cough, a uh, commoner be a member of the Association Of Princes and I said uh, naw man, I meant the Association Of Photographers.
Whew . . . blood returned to Willy's face and he smiled and said "oh now I understand, a Photographer's association".
I said yea, you should join up and he kind of did that one eyed squint and said "no disrespect meant but , I don't want to join anything, I just want to be a photographer."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnZ581E1P9c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnZ581E1P9c)
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From the perspective of having started as a trainee in pro pho in '60, I can assure you it was exactly the same then.
In Britain, there was the IBP which ran examinations that gave you an inter and then a final qualification. Unfortunately, those qualifications meant very little outwith some engineering units where perhaps the head photographer was himself a member. There came other, wedding-photo-slanted associations with training schemes, but as with them all, nobody who was going to be a client, as different from a long-term employer, gave a damn or was even aware that those associations existed.
There was no agreed pricing structure that anybody I knew had ever used; we all played it by ear and were eventually beaten down by the threat from other photographers who would be perfectly happy to undercut you if they had the slightest idea what you charged. I even had a client tell me that a chap had come to him offering his services without charging model fees, the model in question being both his girlfriend as well as one of my own models.
The bottom line, I think, may be constantly shifting, but it seems to me that the constant part of it is that people are willing to do anything just to get into print; that people seem not to care about money being the basis of business but think of it as an occasional luxury to be had from some jobs that they might snare. Is there an answer, a solution to the decay of the business as a business? I don't really think so short of legally required, examination-based membership of a responsible trade body. God knows why some governments might shy away from that. At the very least it gives them a better base from which to collect taxation and catch the moonlighters.
Frankly, whilst you could jump from am to pro very quickly in my day if you had the money, I think that with today's changes in technology it is ever more realistic to expect anyone offering a photo service to be legally qualified; there is simply so much to learn and to such very advanced levels, that unless you are capable of reaching them, you won't be offering a client the best service he should reasonably expect.
Rob C
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Interesting, I had the same experience- but I hated school as a student, and now that I teach I'm saying, what the heck is wrong with these kids?
Albert Einstein said something like:
"It is beyond my comprehension how modern methods of instruction have not entirely sniffled youthful curiosity."
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There are may things that would be different in the ideal world of photography.
-In an ideal world, photographers talking about equipment would have the police confiscate it for a week every time that the bokeh of a lens was called into question, or pixels being rectangular instead of square, or LCD's being frozen in time. Talks about image noise would warrant public flogging, a lash for every square cm of noise in the red channel and 10 lashes for talk of noise in the blue channel.
E
Would this be to protect low-res DSLR users from been kicked out of the market by MF users, or to protect clients from MF users who did not turn up with a complete spare MF system?
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Would this be to protect low-res DSLR users from been kicked out of the market by MF users, or to protect clients from MF users who did not turn up with a complete spare MF system?
I was only joking in order to highlight the useless waste of time that we all like to indulge in, talking about minor technical details when in reality we've never had it better when you consider the quality/price/speed/convenience equation. We simply like to moan and vent now and then, quite healthy if you ask me.
Personally, I find talking about equipment quite boring after the novelty has passed, I would much rather talk about ideas, or images, or the intricacies of success or how to avoid failure. I like the long posts here by the regular guys, I like a bit of irony, cynicism mixed with nostalgia, a bit of humour and banter as well as educated analysis of various subjects.
Your post about belonging to institutions or what you get out of them is interesting, a change from the usual.
Ed.
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One thing I would think a pro photographer org would be useful for is to negotiate a nice group health insurance plan for its members. Even NANPA, which is not really pro, has such a benefit. What about others ? Any of the organization offer a particularly worthwhile health insurance plan ?
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Interesting... just saw this link about the ASMP hosting a copyright conference.
http://www.photography-news.com/2010/03/as...-symposium.html (http://www.photography-news.com/2010/03/asmp-to-hold-major-copyright-symposium.html)
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The British Institute of Professional Photographers meetings are like unglorified amateur club meetings, but they do some courses that might be useful to me.
I spoke to a director of the Master Photographers' Association at Focus/NEC/UK this week, and he said that they accept "anyone aspiring to be a professional photographer".
An advantage of the MPA for me is that their local meetings are not far away from South Warwickshire: they have 12 regions in the UK, so they would be more local for most people.
Has anyone any info re MPA?
It is a small organization (2000 members) and most members are, I think, into people/fashion etc., so I think I would be unlikely to find anyone with any interest/knowledge re remote operation of Medium Format digital View cameras.
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As ever, Dick, it's basically a lonely furrow we plough.
Rob C
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Rob C
Frankly, whilst you could jump from am to pro very quickly in my day if you had the money
I'm not sure what you mean exactly or when your "day" was, but (I'm 60 this year and been professional since 1978), but in my "day" ("78 through today) turning pro was never quick or ever a question of money. Have I misunderstood you? In the day, one could "call" themselves a pro by simply buying some business cards (today launching a website), but "being" a pro is and always was another question.
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Rob C
I'm not sure what you mean exactly or when your "day" was, but (I'm 60 this year and been professional since 1978), but in my "day" ("78 through today) turning pro was never quick or ever a question of money. Have I misunderstood you? In the day, one could "call" themselves a pro by simply buying some business cards (today launching a website), but "being" a pro is and always was another question.
I think that digital has inspired thousands of amateurs to call themselves professionals.
I was also 60 last year, and I have been doing part-time professional photography on and off since 1973.
My wedding a few years ago was a typical experience with an experienced, established professional photographer... to cut a long story short, the only photo that got framed or displayed was taken by a guest!
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Rob C
I'm not sure what you mean exactly or when your "day" was, but (I'm 60 this year and been professional since 1978), but in my "day" ("78 through today) turning pro was never quick or ever a question of money. Have I misunderstood you? In the day, one could "call" themselves a pro by simply buying some business cards (today launching a website), but "being" a pro is and always was another question.
Kirk
I started in '60 as a trainee in an industrial in-house unit and went out on my own in '66. My experience was that the competition that came along was much younger than I - perhaps 20 years of age? - and owned one basic camera/lens. These guys came and went and some fortunate ones came armed with family connections that provided city centre studios or west end apartments. Their nett effect was to drive prices down and eff up the market. Now, the older established studios weren't a lot better either since some of them were very cheap indeed, paid peanuts to staff. That fact was the first prompter to going solo: either one had a life or did something else that had a future. But equipment sufficient to exist, or at least to start, was not expensive: I had a used Rollei T, an Ekakta and a very inexpensive enlarger. That's why I have often said that I could never have financed starting up today with the same financial resources that were open to me.
I don't think I suggested that staying in photography was easy, though!
My driving passion had been fashion and yes, I did get to do several advertising shoot trips for British Vogue/International Wool Secretariat etc. (I think my first one was twenty-eight pages or something lke that) but I think that I was simply too late: the pulling in of financial aid from the fibre manufacturers, the DuPont/Monsantos of this world, in the mid-seventies meant that much of the work I did came to an end because the companies themselves could no longer afford to keep sending me out around the world and even the huge retail chain stores thought twice about buying space in high-end magazines. I was based in Scotland and you'd have thought - as did I - that all that Scottish knitwear would go on for ever. It did not. It was mostly choked up by larger companies outside the country and what was left ended up being serviced via PR groups in London. That was what led me away into design, photography and production of bespoke company calendars - thank God! - it paid our keep and more. At the time, the extra stuff from those calendar shoots provided stock material as a bonus. But as I said, I still believe I was just about five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age.
Rob C
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I still believe I was just about five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age.
Rob C
Rob, everyone in every profession has always been five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age. I certainly was.
Where would we be without nostalgia?
Jeremy
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Rob, everyone in every profession has always been five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age. I certainly was.
Where would we be without nostalgia?
Jeremy
I take yor point, Jeremy, but I also believe that some such notions are fairly visible from the evidence. In photography, there was a certain measure of that when some of the big photographers in London started to abandon their own studios because they could no longer afford to keep them. I let my Scottish one go because studio work was more or less a thing of the past for me, then, it started to return for a bit - just long enough to tempt me into building a smaller version at home. It proved a blip - expensive one - and I eventually decided to get the hell out of it and move abroad because most of my work depended on good weather.
That move was very influenced by the calendar business and also stock, but we all know what happened to stock! I was lucky enough to be with Tony Stone during the final good years and I did get a few good sales, but even the agents started to feel the pinch. I don't imagine twenty-cent pics would ever have been their first idea of a good time! Their golden age has gone too.
Rob C
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Rob, everyone in every profession has always been five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age. I certainly was.
Where would we be without nostalgia?
Jeremy
...and how do we create the next golden age of photography?
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...and how do we create the next golden age of photography?
We don't.
Rob C
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We live in the golden age, whether you think so you not, and 50 or 60 years from, those will to live a golden age. Get the point?
If you walk around like you missed it, you'll never get any where. Times change, and you have to change with it in everything you do, including marketing. You want the "new golden age," start using modern tools in your marketing, like Linkedin, Facebook, Twitter. I have read so many case studies on small (very small) businesses using these sites to get very rewarding assignments and jobs. I am starting to see success from using them and I have only been really using them for 2 months.
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...and how do we create the next golden age of photography?
Toning.
Jeremy
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We live in the golden age, whether you think so you not, and 50 or 60 years from, those will to live a golden age. Get the point?
If you walk around like you missed it, you'll never get any where. Times change, and you have to change with it in everything you do, including marketing. You want the "new golden age," start using modern tools in your marketing, like Linkedin, Facebook, Twitter. I have read so many case studies on small (very small) businesses using these sites to get very rewarding assignments and jobs. I am starting to see success from using them and I have only been really using them for 2 months.
Joe, it isn't anything to do with new forms of marketing; such methods simply direct some available work to wherever. The point that you are missing is that both quantity and value (financial) of photography available has been crippled. Was a time a lot of us were quite well off; I no longer know any of us, non-mythicals, that is, who is now making pots of gold.
Simply working your ass off is no judgement of any Golden Age; it is measured in reward both financial and spiritual. You can work from seven until seven or eight or even through the night, but when you realise that the guy building the road makes more than you do, I fear any GA is largely of the mind. Where the many guys who, like myself, once flew off with an armful of models to top hotels wherever they decided was going to make a great location, spend a couple of weeks there and feel really alive? It's become so rare now that it's news. As I mentioned before, when I came in, I do believe it was already more or less during the decline of said GA. Do you remember Sed cards, index cards by any name, when so many girls had exotic photography locations plastered all over the place? Every second Page 3 model had the Seychelles, the Bahamas, and credit lines to show they were not fakes. Maybe you are looking in the wrong place for the clue: ask the model agencies how it has changed. Of course, you run the danger of bumping into corporate-speak, where everybody is doing better than they ever did before, regardless of how many go out of business. Honesty isn't good news.
Rob C
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Maybe you are looking in the wrong place for the clue: ask the model agencies how it has changed. Of course, you run the danger of bumping into corporate-speak, where everybody is doing better than they ever did before, regardless of how many go out of business. Honesty isn't good news.
http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/03/11/sto...00-assignments/ (http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/03/11/stop-accepting-200-assignments/)
Comments are especially interesting.
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Toning.
Jeremy
+1
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http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/03/11/sto...00-assignments/ (http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/03/11/stop-accepting-200-assignments/)
Comments are especially interesting.
It is interesting that when I started there was no such thing as a $200 job. We couldn't imagine a job that wouldn't pay that for an assistant (well, maybe $175 for an asst was the low end).
And when I was an assistant long ago I was never working alone, there was always at least 1 other asst, and we all had as much work as we could accept (although I don't remember how we got booked before cell phones). The photogs we worked for were raking in cash, and as assts we earned more then than it seems these young struggling starting photogs are now.
Now is not a golden age to anyone who has been in this business for more than 2 years. The money (and power) started flowing away from photographers many many years ago and it will never go back to the way it used to be.
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I see it as EEdward, Andre Napier, and gwhitf
And DHB...I have belong to a few...as I am sure others I listed at somep point have.
And Creativity is NOT what is missing....although some are stronger in a specialty than others...but it is the relationship you create that keeps the client, and what you offer.
I have been a "fan" since 10 years back to Andre and it is always nice to see his posts on the tech side, and printing. I have always appreciated his feedback and his commitment to be helpful, and I am so glad to see it here in a completely different side of the business. It is individual characters like this that help someone...So far spending hundereds of dollars, and joining a group had gotten me a dsicount here and there.
I DO see a need for a mmbership for legal service, as this model is available to general business, there would be a nice specialty for a legal service you pay as a member and you get 20-30 lawyers (depending on location), not one, go over the case and get you results. Luckily I have a firm I am very happy with, but I can see this service of value.
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Define what is meant by a $200 Job or $200 gigs ?
Passport picture, simple table-top pack-shot, one image, single media use, personal use only, one time only use, non-exclusive use, etc, etc.
It's often not a Job... it's more like an Opportunity - to produce some images, that others will want to use.
Did you read through the link? I don't think there is a single definition, but suffice it to say the jobs these guys are being offered seem to be becoming the norm. I have heard about these jobs, never come across one, but my assistants have. And the "clients" are commonly grabbing all the rights so resale is getting squeezed as well. As I said before, when I started there wasn't such a thing, not even close ($1200 was low for a single editorial image) at least not in my market, and now there is.
Yes, sometimes it's an opportunity. Commercial assignments have always provided an opportunity to shoot images, but the compensation/budgets have shriveled, as have the quality assignments that allow those opportunities.
The glass can be seen as half full, but that doesn't mean it's potable.
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Things has changed for many reasons. The main one is the change in a way businesses approach advertising. Years ago the main way of advertising were TV commercials and print adds. Advertising was very expensive as there was limited number of TV channels and magazines and only the top companies could afford the media. Small companies were relying on word of mouth and local promotion. Handful of photographers were producing majority of work and cashing big time. I remember times were scanning one image for print cost $250. Photographers needed to produce few master pieces a year and live a great life. With the invention on Internet and cable TV a lot has changed. Suddenly Local Cable TV became affordable to every advertiser. For example current price for Comcast 30 sec add on E channel or CNN in Chicago area is $20 per zone ( about 100,000 subscribers ). New advertisers came to market with their small budgets and demand for lots of production. Obviously the adds are not produced by a crew of 20 with 12K lights but rather a lone men with HD video for a grand total production cost of $1000. Internet created a demand for millions of images used for website advertising of small companies. The quantity demand and the technology advance lower the price. Stock photos were created and became affordable to every one. Digital cameras became user friendly allowing a lot of people to shot acceptable work. High ISO advances eliminated the need for expensive lighting systems for lots of production.
Editorials: there is less and less magazine advertisers on local level. Magazines lost revenue and therefor cut down on editorials. A lot magazines went bankrupt. Ten years ago there were 12 Polish language magazines in Chicago. Today there is just one and barely surviving. People get their news from internet and therefor do not buy magazines. Who cares about calendars today?
Today we live in completely different world. Most of us in general love the advances and changes the time brought. As a photographers we have to accept it as well. There is no going back in time.
There is still a way to find a golden era in photography today. You just have to forget about the nostalgia and adopt to new ways. There is lots of ways to make tons of money in photography today. I personally feel no recession as our studio is busier and more profitable than ever. We just accepted the changes and decided to swim with the river and not against it.
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... an Opportunity to produce some images, that others will want to use - is what I said.
In those instances where they are able to hold on to the rights and the image sees the light of day and it's worth something to someone else (and those people that could use it see it), yes. I can't imagine a lot of these $200 gigs meet these criteria. After expenses they can't be coming away with much if not often losing money. These kids are all racing to give away their work in the hope that someone sees it and cares, or to justify their SVA BFA to the rents.
If you smell opportunity here why aren't you taking advantage?
As I said I haven't been offered this type of job, but I know it would have to be a pretty special opportunity for me to even think twice about doing it.
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Y
Would agree - you just need to think differently now and stop viewing it as a Job.
With all due respect,
on contrary it is a job now I just need to think differently and stop viewing it as an art. My one year old AFI 7 shows 69,573 actuation and paid for itself in the first couple months.