Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: BobShram on February 11, 2010, 02:38:35 pm
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My wifes mac had a key board go down, my PC key board worked fine once it logged it in. The hard drives seem to be the same, I was wondering if you built a PC and ran a mac OS on it would it work or are there some hardware execptions or maybe the OS is not allowed to run on it. Does any one have any knowledge on this.
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http://lifehacker.com/348653/install-os-x-...acking-required (http://lifehacker.com/348653/install-os-x-on-your-hackintosh-pc-no-hacking-required)
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There are two problems:
- first: MAC OS uses OpenFirmware to boot instead of the traditional BIOS on PC. There are emulators available (sometimes even complete PCs with compatible hardware, usually until Apple closes the shop...). So far I know no way using virtual maschines (would be easier).
- second: legal issues. MAC OS may only be used legally on Apple hardware. So even if you manage to get such an emulator to work, it's not legally possible to use MAC OS on it. Though it's easy, just buying an update DVD is said to work.
Andreas - who also really would like to use MAC OS parallel, but no way so far...
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A bit of discussion on this at the link, from many angles, that I found less biased than most (they usually turn into flame wars.) Including **some** of the comments:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/columns/m..._virtualization (http://www.maximumpc.com/article/columns/murphys_law_why_doth_apple_fear_virtualization)
Just don't attribute any specific "attitude" you read there to me personally. I'll remain agnostic on this one!
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Interesting. I'm happy with what I've got, maybe if I wait a few years it will be easyer.
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There are two problems:
- first: MAC OS uses OpenFirmware to boot instead of the traditional BIOS on PC. There are emulators available (sometimes even complete PCs with compatible hardware, usually until Apple closes the shop...). So far I know no way using virtual maschines (would be easier).
Current Intel-powered Macs use EFI. Open Firmware was used on PPC-powered Macs such as G5s.
Hackintosh.com provides interesting info on PC hardware running Mac OS X.
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What you CAN do is buy a Mac and run Windows OS on it, not an emulation but a full bootable version.
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What you CAN do is buy a Mac and run Windows OS on it, not an emulation but a full bootable version.
So we should reward Apple for their restrictive license agreements? The **technical** part of virtualization or dual boot is not hard - look at the Hackintoshes.
From the link I posted above:
Even though it means absolutely nothing from a business standpoint, it is a little unfair that Apple users get the best of both worlds--OS X and a virtualized Windows operating system, should they so choose. It's tempting to point to Microsoft and make some snide comment about it actually being the good guy in this situation. Still, it's great to see a company that doesn't fear the proliferation of its operating system regardless of underlying platform.
Will Apple change its ways? ....... That's not going to happen--no way, no how.
Too much money in hardware for Apple - and the status quo.
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What you CAN do is buy a Mac and run Windows OS on it, not an emulation but a full bootable version.
Mac key pad $49.95, Windows key pad that works on Mac $24.49 or cheaper. Let me think about that for a few seconds
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Hey Jerry, I don't mean to start a war here, there are plenty of others available ....
I have been turning this over again and again. I can see both sides of Apples strategy. But I do feel a bit "gouged" sometimes.
In 1998, I bought a Mamiya 7II body. In the USA it was $3,000. In the UK, from an authorized dealer, with 2 day shipping to the US, it was $1,500 US.
But, but, but ... no US warranty! OK, so I'll buy 2, and have a spare **if** one needs to go to Canada (40 miles for me) for repair .....
Great equipment, my favorite camera ever. But sometimes you get that feeling that the cost/benefit is a bit skewed.
Cheers!
Michael
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Michael,
I was responding to the OP's question, by pointing out that Apple built computers can run both operating systems. There is no "virtualization" required in fact you don't even need the Mac OS to install and run Windows on an Apple machine. They are built to a higher standard than the typical PC available on the market. If the goal is the ability to run both Mac and Windows software on one machine, than the Mac is the computer of choice.
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Michael,
I was responding to the OP's question, by pointing out that Apple built computers can run both operating systems. There is no "virtualization" required in fact you don't even need the Mac OS to install and run Windows on an Apple machine. They are built to a higher standard than the typical PC available on the market. If the goal is the ability to run both Mac and Windows software on one machine, than the Mac is the computer of choice.
Firstly, that's rubbish that Apples are built to a higher standard than typical PCs. Typical from whom? HP, Dell, Asus, Acer, Alienware, custom built? Apples are no better or worse than average, just sometimes more expensive although usually in a similiar ball park with the better PC brands. Accessories, though, are expensive by comparison.
Secondly, it's not a question of Mac being the computer of "choice" - there is no choice because Apple won't allow OS X to be run on hardware other than their own, even though it's technically no big deal.
A Mac would be a good choice for many reasons, but let's stick to facts rather than tout cool-aid marketing lines.
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Firstly, that's rubbish that Apples are built to a higher standard than typical PCs. Typical from whom? HP, Dell, Asus, Acer, Alienware, custom built? Apples are no better or worse than average, just sometimes more expensive although usually in a similiar ball park with the better PC brands. Accessories, though, are expensive by comparison.
Secondly, it's not a question of Mac being the computer of "choice" - there is no choice because Apple won't allow OS X to be run on hardware other than their own, even though it's technically no big deal.
A Mac would be a good choice for many reasons, but let's stick to facts rather than tout cool-aid marketing lines.
I see you have added a lot to to the topic. If you do not own an Apple computer then your opinion is rubbish. My opinion is based on 16 years experience with building and operating PC's as well as 4 years experience with the iMac, MacPro and Macbook Pro.
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I see you have added a lot to to the topic. If you do not own an Apple computer then your opinion is rubbish. My opinion is based on 16 years experience with building and operating PC's as well as 4 years experience with the iMac, MacPro and Macbook Pro.
That doesn't mean you're not an Apple fanboy. I own Apple and non-Apple computers too, and have used both personally and professionally. Apples are built better than some no-name mystery meat from the Far East, but Apple came in third behind Asus and Lenovo in overall hardware reliability last year (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/apple-asus-lenovo-computer-reliability,7364.html). Apples are no better when it comes to software reliability, either; just look at the still-unresolved cluster-f**k regarding printing profiling targets with Snow Leopard.
The only reason Apple is "better" for running dual operating systems is because Apple is a bigger corporate a$$hole than Microsoft and won't allow their OS to run on non-Apple hardware.
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I'll readily agree that Apple's build quality generally is better than the majority of PC's, the selected parts and performance performance certainly is not:
For $800:
From Apple
Mac Mini - 2.5Ghz Dual Core 3MB cache 1033Mhz FSB, 320GB 5400RPM drive (they still make these???), 4GB RAM, NVidia 9400M mobile chipset, OS X
From Newegg
Intel DG451D Mainboard, 2.66 Quad Core CPU 4MB cache 1666 FSB, 300GB 10,000RPM drive, 4GB RAM, Nvidia 9600 256MB, Win 7 Home Premium 64
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I see you have added a lot to to the topic. If you do not own an Apple computer then your opinion is rubbish. My opinion is based on 16 years experience with building and operating PC's as well as 4 years experience with the iMac, MacPro and Macbook Pro.
I added some debunking of a common myth.
I have owned Apple computers (dating back to my first being an Apple IIe) and have owned and been using personal computers since the Z-80 processor models (1980 for me). Manufacturers that I have used include, in no particular order, Dick Smith, Tandy, Microbee (self assembly Z-80 machine but I didn't assemble it), Apple, Texas Instruments, Atari, Commodore, BBC, Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo, Asus, Acer and various self-constructed PCs (my first self-assembly was adding components to a 286 on an Amiga card circa 1991 - a math co-pro and a video card - with the first complete build of a PC in 1992).
My opinion comes from direct experience and from that of colleagues and friends with direct experience.
Jonathan and Joh readily debunk your assertions, too, which supports my opinion.
Enjoy.
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Hi,
Yes this is a very good way to put it. On the other hand, the Mac Mini is small, silent and energy efficient.
Apple is very good at packaging standard components in an exclusive way, a little bit like Nike shoes, Swiss Watches and so on. It's about perceived value.
The other issue is that the Mac is a well integrated platform. If you buy a computer from Newegg I presume that keeping all drivers for all cards your responsibility. Apple can support the whole platform.
Best regards
Erik
I'll readily agree that Apple's build quality generally is better than the majority of PC's, the selected parts and performance performance certainly is not:
For $800:
From Apple
Mac Mini - 2.5Ghz Dual Core 3MB cache 1033Mhz FSB, 320GB 5400RPM drive (they still make these???), 4GB RAM, NVidia 9400M mobile chipset, OS X
From Newegg
Intel DG451D Mainboard, 2.66 Quad Core CPU 4MB cache 1666 FSB, 300GB 10,000RPM drive, 4GB RAM, Nvidia 9600 256MB, Win 7 Home Premium 64
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The other issue is that the Mac is a well integrated platform. If you buy a computer from Newegg I presume that keeping all drivers for all cards your responsibility. Apple can support the whole platform.
This isn't really true. Apple only supplies Apple software and driver updates. If you want updates for Office, you have to use a separate update process to get them from Microsoft. If you want updates for Adobe software, you have to go to Adobe. OTOH, Microsoft supplies drivers for thousands of third-party hardware devices and supports them via Windows Update. If you have third-party hardware attached to your computer, you're more likely to get drivers for it from Microsoft than Apple.
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Apples are built better than some no-name mystery meat from the Far East.
My point exactly.
The only reason Apple is "better" for running dual operating systems is because Apple is a bigger corporate a$$hole than Microsoft and won't allow their OS to run on non-Apple hardware.
The reason really doesn't matter, it's best in this category.
Apple is also the best in the market for technical support.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/17/a...rvice-rankings/ (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/17/apple-tops-pc-customer-service-rankings/)
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10305640-37.html (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10305640-37.html)
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This isn't really true. Apple only supplies Apple software and driver updates. If you want updates for Office, you have to use a separate update process to get them from Microsoft. If you want updates for Adobe software, you have to go to Adobe. OTOH, Microsoft supplies drivers for thousands of third-party hardware devices and supports them via Windows Update. If you have third-party hardware attached to your computer, you're more likely to get drivers for it from Microsoft than Apple.
Third party hardware support from Microsoft has always been sketchy at best. It is never the latest driver update and most professionals never use Microsoft update for 3rd party software.
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My opinion comes from direct experience and from that of colleagues and friends with direct experience.
An Apple IIe is hardly experience with Apple and the Mac operating system
Jonathan and Joh readily debunk your assertions, too, which supports my opinion.
If you read their responses they actually agreed with me.
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An Apple IIe is hardly experience with Apple and the Mac operating system
If you read their responses they actually agreed with me.
Apple IIe was my *first* Apple computer, Jerry. I don't consider myself a Mac Guy, but I use them nearly every day at work and I have owned and used others over the years. I've recommended Macs to people and no doubt will do so in the future where I consider it the right choice.
Their responses don't agree with you. They point out two PC vendors rated as having more reliable hardware, for example. No one, including me, claimed that Macs were poor hardware, just that the claim that it's better than any PC is quite simply wrong. They also went on to mention problems with the OS.
Apple's support is good. I don't know if it's the same over there as here, but here you pay for it (as you do with some of the other PC vendors, too), so I would expect it to be good.
I also went on to say that a Mac would be a good choice, but your original comments perpetuated a myth that Apple's hardware is better than PCs.
You're looking for an argument where none exists, Jerry, just because I corrected the misrepresentation that Apple hardware is superior to PC and that it was a "choice" where no such choice existed due to Apple's restrictions. That claim is too general and too sweeping and like most such broad comments is wrong. You can easily promote the virtues of the Mac without resorting to inaccurate statements.
Enjoy :-)
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Firstly, that's rubbish that Apples are built to a higher standard than typical PCs. Typical from whom? HP, Dell, Asus, Acer, Alienware, custom built? Apples are no better or worse than average, just sometimes more expensive although usually in a similiar ball park with the better PC brands. Accessories, though, are expensive by comparison.
I see you have added a lot to to the topic. If you do not own an Apple computer then your opinion is rubbish. My opinion is based on 16 years experience with building and operating PC's as well as 4 years experience with the iMac, MacPro and Macbook Pro.
As a Mac owner and user I'd agree entirely with the post you so rudely dismissed. High end PCs and Apple stuff is little different. My MP spent a lot of time going back and forth to the Apple store, sometimes the problems were caused by the staff and my 8 month old MBP now won't work wirelessly. And same goes for other Apple users I know.
Apple stuff is also subject to recalls just like Sonys, Dells etc as the bits inside an Apple and it's fancy packaging are usually nothing special and if we are talking graphics cards, then also usually a few years old.
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What you CAN do is buy a Mac and run Windows OS on it, not an emulation but a full bootable version.
But do not expect it to work flawlessly as Apple have been quite slack with their Bootcamp drivers and certainly do not think that using Parallels or VMWare Fusion is seamless integration either.
The Windows experience on a Mac is definitely inferior to using a real PC. Just like using a Hackintosh is not the same as a Mac
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I'll readily agree that Apple's build quality generally is better than the majority of PC's, the selected parts and performance performance certainly is not:
The majority of PCs are also an awful lot cheaper though and can be afforded by ordinary people. Apple have a much larger market share in rich countries.
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If you read their responses they actually agreed with me.
Not if you actually read what I wrote. Apple makes good hardware and a good OS, and does a good job of integrating them. But that doesn't mean that they are categorically superior to the PC universe in either hardware or software reliability. You can buy hardware from vendors with better reliability ratings than Apple and still get more performance for your dollar. The fact that there is poorly-made junk in the PC universe doesn't mean that all PC hardware is poorly-made crap, nor does it mean that Apple always offers better value for its products.
The reason really doesn't matter, it's best in this category.
This is pure fanboyism here. That's kind of like saying that Mafia "protection" is best, even though the only reason its "best" is that if you hire anyone else, someone will visit you at 3AM and drill out your kneecaps with an ice auger sans anesthesia...
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Not if you actually read what I wrote. Apple makes good hardware and a good OS, and does a good job of integrating them. But that doesn't mean that they are categorically superior to the PC universe in either hardware or software reliability. You can buy hardware from vendors with better reliability ratings than Apple and still get more performance for your dollar. The fact that there is poorly-made junk in the PC universe doesn't mean that all PC hardware is poorly-made crap, nor does it mean that Apple always offers better value for its products.
Nooooo, don't use reason with fanbois, it never works!
This is pure fanboyism here. That's kind of like saying that Mafia "protection" is best, even though the only reason its "best" is that if you hire anyone else, someone will visit you at 3AM and drill out your kneecaps with an ice auger sans anesthesia...
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It is very obvious here that that the FANBOYS here favor the PC and are full of MAC ENVY.
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I have some recent experience with the iMAC 27 i7 and a Dell studio 17 i7. The iMAC was the best hardware platform in a high end "all in one" computer for my needs, The Dell studio 17 was the best hardware platform at a reasonable price for my needs. The Dell has W7 on it the iMAC OSX. I tried running windows 7 with VM fusion and had several crashes with OSX and DxO etc. I then installed W7 as the boot OS using bootcamp 3.1 (took me 3 days to figure this one out with the "black screen" bug) I'm a windows guy and love Windows 7(went from XP Pro to W7 skipped Vista), OSX was OK but crashed several times and I felt awkward learning it. W7 in my application is more stable than OSX. I'm happy with a windows 7 iMAC and a windows 7 laptop no file transfer issues, no crashes, easy for me to use, no software costs.
Marc
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It is very obvious here that that the FANBOYS here favor the PC and are full of MAC ENVY.
At least you make people laugh, Jerry :-)
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... if you built a PC and ran a mac OS on it ...
You would get a Ferrari engine in a Kia chassis?
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[quote
You would get a Ferrari engine in a Kia chassis?
[/quote]
Yep them Italian cars are real high maintenance, always need adjusting to keep them running and that don't come cheap, still they make good show cars and get you looking, not much good for shopping though.
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If you consider a FANBOY someone who:
1) Understands and appreciates the facts.
2) Is not willing to accept vague blanket statements about anything
3) Happy to point out issues using specific and verifiable information
4) Someone who currently owns more than one example of each platform
Well, YES! I guess I am.....
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It is very obvious here that that the FANBOYS here favor the PC and are full of MAC ENVY.
I think you find those arguing against you happen to use Macs as well as PCs. All my posts were sent from one of my macs.
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Michael,
I was responding to the OP's question, by pointing out that Apple built computers can run both operating systems. There is no "virtualization" required in fact you don't even need the Mac OS to install and run Windows on an Apple machine. They are built to a higher standard than the typical PC available on the market. If the goal is the ability to run both Mac and Windows software on one machine, than the Mac is the computer of choice.
First of all in my honest opinion the mac is not built to a higher standard than pcs unless you are speaking of comparing a $2000 imac with an $800 pc. Macs have small hds, previous generation processors (unless you spend over $2000), little memory, previous generation video, and many other corners they have cut. What makes the mac desirable, IMHO, is OSX. It really is better, not much, but better. I say this as a former mac user and heretic. The design of the case is also pretty.