Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: narikin on December 11, 2009, 11:59:06 pm
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recently acquired a Max + TC bodies, and wondering what lenses people would recommend in the normal or moderate wide lengths.
I'll be using the Max to stitch 2 P65+ images together, maybe on rare occasions 4, but mostly 2.
so need an image circle of around 95 - 100mm, for what will be a 76x54mm area, something between 70-100mm, perhaps.
for walk around with the TC, no stitching of course, a 60-80mm is ideal for my uses.
Schneider or Rodenstock?
was looking at:
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 70 f5.6
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 90 f5.6
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 105 f5.6
and
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/72 mm
Schneider Apo-Digitar 4.5/90 mm
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/100 mm N
but am open to other possibilities/ suggestions, but I do not need or use super-wides.
I like the sound of the Rodenstock Digaron S range for the TC, but they seem to barely cover the P65+ larger sensor I use.
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Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 90 f5.6, very sharp and nice lens. Would be my choice.
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Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 90 f5.6, very sharp and nice lens. Would be my choice.
me too, i have one and loved it !
my next purchase will be a 72 or 70, i still hesitate between this two, but in 90 the Digaron W is the way to go.
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I have the HR 70 and 90.... those are great friggin glass!
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thanks.
strange everyone is choosing/ recommending Rodenstock over Schneider. any reason in particular?
when you look at the Digaron-S series charts they are off-the-scale sharp, BUT they only cover the sensor precisely, on a P65+ there is barely 2mm spare!
seems you have to 'compromise' (!) to the Digaron-W range if you want to shift or stitch.
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In exactly the same situation, except that I am still waiting for my H4D/60. Oh well, I will start with the H3D/50 next week and wonder how long it will take to sort out the new Blad, and the 50 back on the technical cameras. Easy would be nice but faint hope.
Have the HR W 40 and 90 initially. From all I can see these are great lenses on paper and in the hands of others on this board. I am fairly concerned by Joe Holmes' articles, however, and will need to verify that each lens is doing what it is supposed to. Alpa's back calibration procedure should minimze the contribution of camera variables to image degradation. That leaves the optics. I would be interested to hear how others have found quality control in the HR series to be? Has it improved since Holmes made his tests? Any routine lens testing procedures that you care to share?
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In exactly the same situation, except that I am still waiting for my H4D/60. Oh well, I will start with the H3D/50 next week and wonder how long it will take to sort out the new Blad, and the 50 back on the technical cameras. Easy would be nice but faint hope.
Have the HR W 40 and 90 initially. From all I can see these are great lenses on paper and in the hands of others on this board. I am fairly concerned by Joe Holmes' articles, however, and will need to verify that each lens is doing what it is supposed to. Alpa's back calibration procedure should minimze the contribution of camera variables to image degradation. That leaves the optics. I would be interested to hear how others have found quality control in the HR series to be? Has it improved since Holmes made his tests? Any routine lens testing procedures that you care to share?
Well I can only speak for the HR40-W and 90-W on my Linhof. They are probably the best lenses I have seen in a long time. I think the next real interesting lenses will be the new Schneider 28 and 43, once they ship. What test do you mean ? I just use the lens and as long as it does what I want it to do I am happy. However one should be careful not to cut onself. They are quite sharp ;-)
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Speaking of glass, anybody have the scoop on the forthcoming Schneider 28? Any spec.s? I keep hearing their release is imminent. I'm about to plan a trip and want to have this thing in my kit before I depart.
I may just end up going with the 23HR...
- Mr. Wishy Washy
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Mr Barret, you have a PM to read from me...
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Well I can only speak for the HR40-W and 90-W on my Linhof.
Can you comment about the distorsion with the 40... can you send me a pic ?
Thanks
PS : i wanted to buy it, but was afraid of it and wasn't able to test it !
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recently acquired a Max + TC bodies, and wondering what lenses people would recommend in the normal or moderate wide lengths.
I'll be using the Max to stitch 2 P65+ images together, maybe on rare occasions 4, but mostly 2.
so need an image circle of around 95 - 100mm, for what will be a 76x54mm area, something between 70-100mm, perhaps.
for walk around with the TC, no stitching of course, a 60-80mm is ideal for my uses.
.......
Maybe it would be a good idea to contact your dealer or Alpa directly, as they for sure know what people use and what works best for specific uses.
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one phrase per lens by Alpa...
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 5.6/23 mm
The HR Digaron-S 23 mm with the shortest focal length of all digital Rodenstock lenses.
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24 mm XL
The widest Schneider lens in Digital Photography
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.5/28 mm
Wide and bright
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/35 mm XL
Highest resolution and large image circle
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.0/35 mm
Bright and no center filter needed
Schneider Super-Angulon 5.6/38 mm XL
The widest in analog photography
Schneider Super-Angulon 5.6/38 mm XL
special version: decentered by 8 mm, can be used on the camera in four positions (= fixed shift of 8 mm in all four directions: upward/downward/left/right, when ordering please define the orientation on the lensboard)
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 4.0/40 mm
The HR Digaron-W 40 mm will become one of the newest members in the digital Rodenstock lens range. It is a sister lens of the Apo-Sironar digital 5.6/70 mm.
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL
The epitome of universality
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL decentered
special version: decentered by 8 mm, can be used on the camera in four positions (= fixed shift of 8 mm in all four directions: upward/downward/left/right, when ordering please define the orientation on the lensboard)
Schneider Super-Angulon 5.6/47 mm XL
Super wide with maxiumum shift
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 4.0/50 mm
A little bit more than just standard wide
Schneider Super-Angulon 5.6/58 mm XL
Wide but not too wide
Schneider Apo-Digitar 4.0/60 mm N
Small and fast
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.0/60 mm
Speed with image circle reserve
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 5.6/70 mm
100 mm image circle for shift and stitch.
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/72 mm L
High resolution, low distortion
Schneider Apo-Digitar 4.0/80 mm N
A fast alternative
Schneider Super-Symmar Aspheric 4.5/80 mm XL
Versatility at every scale
Schneider Apo-Digitar 4.5/90 mm N
Incredibly sharp
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 5.6/90 mm
A universal lens with reserves for a lot of stitching.
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/100 mm N
Selectivity with large image circle
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.0/100 mm
Family matters
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/120 mm N
Portraits and more
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/120 mm M (macro)
The dedicated digital macro lens
Schneider Apo-Symmar 5.6/120 mm L
The missing link
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/150 N
The digital short tele
Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/180 mm T
The digital tele
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 5.6/180 mm
The longest HR
Schneider Apo-Symmar 5.6/180 mm L
Moderate tele photography for the ALPA
Schneider Apo-Digitar 6.8/210 mm T
The longest digital lens
Schneider Apo-Tele-Xenar 5.6/250 mm
The longest
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yeah, the one line comments by Alpa are really not that useful:
"Family matters" for Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.0/100 mm
is really meaningless - its the sharpest of all the Digaron S lenses, the ultimate top resolver, though you'd never guess that.
anywise:
what worries me about Alpa overall is that it gets way too close to the fetish-isation of cameras and their components + craftsmanship.
the camera becomes the thing to own, with its rare wood handles and perfectly formed ultra expensive little accessories.
I dont like to feel I'm buying a $6000 cigarette lighter, carved from a single block of Unobtanium, when a Bic would do the same job.
I say this as an owner, I just catch myself staring at the thing, rather than being out there taking pictures.
the way their brochures self-mythologise the company and its approach is a little too self-conscious.
its about the pictures, not the cameras.
and if a Canon or Nikon, common as they may be, do the job better, as they do for the vast majority of photographers out there, then they should be seriously praised for that, and not overlooked.
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I use an Alpa and both Schneider and Rodenstock. When possible I purchase Rodenstock. I have had occasion to send lenses back to both companies and from my little experience, have received better service from Rodenstock. Also, on one purchase of a 35 mm lens, I had a lot of trouble getting a clean (dust free interior) Schneider.
Just my 2 cents.
Both companies make some great lenses.
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recently acquired a Max + TC bodies, and wondering what lenses people would recommend in the normal or moderate wide lengths.
I'll be using the Max to stitch 2 P65+ images together, maybe on rare occasions 4, but mostly 2.
so need an image circle of around 95 - 100mm, for what will be a 76x54mm area, something between 70-100mm, perhaps.
for walk around with the TC, no stitching of course, a 60-80mm is ideal for my uses.
Pardon the uneducated in the area of tech/view cameras (but hopefully soon to take the plunge). Aren't most of the lenses designed for 4x5 view cameras which would have nice large image circles, or have the smaller technical cameras been around long enough most have been designed with those in mind?
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Pardon the uneducated in the area of tech/view cameras (but hopefully soon to take the plunge). Aren't most of the lenses designed for 4x5 view cameras which would have nice large image circles, or have the smaller technical cameras been around long enough most have been designed with those in mind?
yes, exactly digital lenses are now designed for smaller 645 size sensors.
For example, Rodenstock reacted so fast to the smaller sensors, that they designed a new series of lenses with an image circle that just fits the 30-39mp sensors. Then full frame 60mp ones arrived, and shifting + stitching arrived, which meant they were of less use. Consequently there's a lens range (Digaron-S) with stunning resolution but nothing to spare in coverage, like 1 or 2mm only!
so... they designed the Digaron-W range, which has some room to spare for larger sensors for shifting or stitching, think of them covering 6x9 with a little extra.
and... you can buy the 'Apo Sironar Digital' ones if you want a really big stitch area, think 4x5" with no extra.
or if you need a massive area, just buy a non digital Large Format 4x5" lens, for huge coverage, but lacking digital quality resolution.
it simply comes down to more resolution OR a bigger image circle - your choice!
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what worries me about Alpa overall is that it gets way too close to the fetish-isation of cameras and their components + craftsmanship.
its about the pictures, not the cameras.
I agree that it's about the picture for us photographers, but I really, really want those making the gear to have that attitude...it can'tbe a bad thing
Murray
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BTW,
is anyone using this lens on a P65+
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.0/60 mm
How much real world movememnt is there and is it a good lens?
Cheers
Murray
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is anyone using this lens on a P65+
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.0/60 mm
How much real world movememnt is there and is it a good lens?
I'd be interested to know this too.
on the Rodenstock chart it has great MTF figures (though note they show it at F5.6, not its widest F4 aperture)
and just 2mm to spare with a P65+ back.
Definitely not one to stitch with, but for sure a great standard-semi wide to walk about with on a TC
real world experience would be better than chart numbers though!
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I'd be interested to know this too.
on the Rodenstock chart it has great MTF figures (though note they show it at F5.6, not its widest F4 aperture)
and just 2mm to spare with a P65+ back.
Definitely not one to stitch with, but for sure a great standard-semi wide to walk about with on a TC
real world experience would be better than chart numbers though!
the 60HR has about 18 - 20 mm movement on a 36x48mm sensor, so u can estimate that still 12mm are with the p65 possible. its the most conservative rated lens from rodenstock in terms of image circle ...
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the 60HR has about 18 - 20 mm movement on a 36x48mm sensor, so u can estimate that still 12mm are with the p65 possible. its the most conservative rated lens from rodenstock in terms of image circle ...
All this talk has me re-examining my lenses, especially since I bought them all when I was still shooting a P45+. I know my 35mm and 45mm have to go, but what about the 55mm Apo-Sironar Digital? I was always pretty pleased with this lens in the past....
Here's a sample using the P65+ with 30mm of rise and 30mm of fall. The fall isn't a good test for sharpness because that area is so foreground as to fall out of the depth of field. The tree gets soft towards the top of the rise, but not as bad as one might expect. I'd say the thing easily has 20mm of rise on a P65+. I'm keepin it!
(http://christopherbarrett.net/55mmtest/55mm_Test_Flat.jpg) (http://christopherbarrett.net/55mmtest/samples.jpg)
380mb full size tiff (http://christopherbarrett.net/55mmtest/55mm_Test_Flat.tif)
-CB
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but what about the 55mm Apo-Sironar Digital?
-CB
Is there some reason this lens is not on the Alpa Price List?
It would be perfect for my needs...
Cheers
Murray
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Is there some reason this lens is not on the Alpa Price List?
It would be perfect for my needs...
Cheers
Murray
Sorry, Murray... I forgot this was an Alpa thread... I was shooting on an Arca.
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yes, exactly digital lenses are now designed for smaller 645 size sensors.
For example, Rodenstock reacted so fast to the smaller sensors, that they designed a new series of lenses with an image circle that just fits the 30-39mp sensors. Then full frame 60mp ones arrived, and shifting + stitching arrived, which meant they were of less use. Consequently there's a lens range (Digaron-S) with stunning resolution but nothing to spare in coverage, like 1 or 2mm only!
so... they designed the Digaron-W range, which has some room to spare for larger sensors for shifting or stitching, think of them covering 6x9 with a little extra.
and... you can buy the 'Apo Sironar Digital' ones if you want a really big stitch area, think 4x5" with no extra.
or if you need a massive area, just buy a non digital Large Format 4x5" lens, for huge coverage, but lacking digital quality resolution.
it simply comes down to more resolution OR a bigger image circle - your choice!
Thanks. This is very helpful.
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Chris,
What 35 are you using and what do you plan on replacing it with?
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Chris,
What 35 are you using and what do you plan on replacing it with?
My 35 and 45 are both Apo-Sironar Digital. I plan to swap those out for the 28mm Super Digitar (someday) and 40mm HR. Then the lineup will be:
28mm Schneider Super Digitar
40mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-W
55mm Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digi
70mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-W
90mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-W
135mm Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digi
I think that set will take pretty good care of me and the P65+.
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Is there some reason this lens is not on the Alpa Price List?
It would be perfect for my needs...
Cheers
Murray
The Alpa Alpar 55mm is based on this lens. so it's on the list.
But it has to be added that these lenses are not optimized for 6 micron sensors, so you'll give away resolution.
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The Alpa Alpar 55mm is based on this lens. so it's on the list.
But it has to be added that these lenses are not optimized for 6 micron sensors, so you'll give away resolution.
Any idea what level (if you can quantify such a thing) of compromise would be involved here?
M
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Any idea what level (if you can quantify such a thing) of compromise would be involved here?
M
Not quantifiable, but when you compare them with modern designs on a 7 micron back (33/39MP), you'll see a big difference for sure.
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Not quantifiable, but when you compare them with modern designs on a 7 micron back (33/39MP), you'll see a big difference for sure.
it depends on lenses... the apo sironar digital 90... is now called HR Digaron W and is an extremely good performer... the 35 non HR isn't as good, and they stopped producing it !
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it depends on lenses... the apo sironar digital 90... is now called HR Digaron W and is an extremely good performer... the 35 non HR isn't as good, and they stopped producing it !
The discussion was about this specific 55mm.
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it depends on lenses... the apo sironar digital 90... is now called HR Digaron W and is an extremely good performer... the 35 non HR isn't as good, and they stopped producing it !
I think I'm going to print a label that says "Semi-HR" and put it on my 55mm. I think as the Apo-Sironar Digi series got longer in focal length they kept getting better. The 55mm may have missed the HR cutoff mark, but I bet it was close. Then again they didn't relable my 135mm to HR.... hmm.
And Dude... "The discussion was about this specific 55mm." That's just rude, the discussion of this thread has actually been about multiple lenses. Go back to bed and don't post till you're less grumpy.
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I think I'm going to print a label that says "Semi-HR" and put it on my 55mm. I think as the Apo-Sironar Digi series got longer in focal length they kept getting better. The 55mm may have missed the HR cutoff mark, but I bet it was close.
With an aptus 22, i don't see much differences between the 45 and the 55... but i did avoid the 35 because of his focus shift !
The 90 is really good at all magnifacation... even very close to the 120 digital macro in the macro range !
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My 35 and 45 are both Apo-Sironar Digital. I plan to swap those out for the 28mm Super Digitar (someday) and 40mm HR. Then the lineup will be:
28mm Schneider Super Digitar
40mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-W
55mm Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digi
70mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-W
90mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-W
135mm Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digi
I think that set will take pretty good care of me and the P65+.
Maybe, you should wait for the new 43, unless you wants to shoot wide open !
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Maybe, you should wait for the new 43, unless you wants to shoot wide open !
Yeah, I'm considering that too.
Decisions, decisions...
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I think I'm going to print a label that says "Semi-HR" and put it on my 55mm. I think as the Apo-Sironar Digi series got longer in focal length they kept getting better. The 55mm may have missed the HR cutoff mark, but I bet it was close. Then again they didn't relable my 135mm to HR.... hmm.
And Dude... "The discussion was about this specific 55mm." That's just rude, the discussion of this thread has actually been about multiple lenses. Go back to bed and don't post till you're less grumpy.
the 55 is quite similar to the 45 in terms of sharpness and behavor if stopped down, at least the sample i had in my hands before exchanging it for the 60HR. i think the largest difference between the "true" HR lenses and the other rodenstock line is that u can use the HRs without noticeable sharpness degradation even with open blades. the 55 as the 45 wants to be stopped down to f8 or even better to f11 than these both are great performers.
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the 55 as the 45 wants to be stopped down to f8 or even better to f11 than these both are great performers.
yes, same for the 35xl and it requires a perfect focus and alignement to be a stellar performer.
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yes, same for the 35xl and it requires a perfect focus and alignement to be a stellar performer.
I have a more general question.
Based off of statements like this and others - Is a slight misalignment with one of these lenses more apparent with a MFDB than a similar misalignment would have shown on 4x5 film?
Which is too ask - if I'm not currently willing to get the newest HR digital lenses, am I better off sticking with film from a resolution standpoint, than going to a MFDB and using my existing stable of lenses?
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I have a more general question.
Based off of statements like this and others - Is a slight misalignment with one of these lenses more apparent with a MFDB than a similar misalignment would have shown on 4x5 film?
A 35XL equivalent for 4x5 is 90... the shorter the lens is, smaller is the tolerance !
But to be honest, i'm not shure i will shoot film anymore, we are facing new problems, but at the same time we have fantastic tools, and no lad and scans...
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Ugh, film... yeah the tolerances aren't as big a deal with the longer lenses, also film just doesn't have the same sharpness, so the problems aren't so obvious.
But man, whether you shoot chrome or neg, nailing color balance is a pain and even then you get crossover... green shadows, magenta hilights not to mention that chromes have half the tonal range of a digi-back, requiring more lighting to attain shadow detail and forget about HDR or trying to align multiple exposures... aligning scans can be a nightmare.
I like color neg for my personal work, but for commercial work where the color palette has to be matched precisely?
The only thing I miss about 4x5 film is having a big ol' groundglass to look at.... but then my laptop screen is even bigger!
Digital... I dig it all