Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: mcfoto on November 23, 2009, 03:06:37 am
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http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../phase-DF.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/phase-DF.shtml)
Thanks Michael for the great review.
Denis
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In the bullet points it is written "1/800 sec flash sync" which is wrong and a bit misleading for those who don't read the whole article. It is still 1/125 for the vast majority of cases.
Speaking of which, I assume 1/800 is the fastest speed of the leaf shutter? How is 1/1,600 achieved?
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In the bullet points it is written "1/800 sec flash sync" which is wrong and a bit misleading for those who don't read the whole article. It is still 1/125 for the vast majority of cases.
Speaking of which, I assume 1/800 is the fastest speed of the leaf shutter? How is 1/1,600 achieved?
I don't know how, but it works great.
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I don't know how, but it works great.
My point is, if 1/800 is the maximum speed of the leaf shutter, then how do you even make an exposure at 1/1600?
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My point is, if 1/800 is the maximum speed of the leaf shutter, then how do you even make an exposure at 1/1600?
Probably some delay on the back. As it only works on p40+ and p65+ (the newer models)
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Probably some delay on the back. As it only works on p40+ and p65+ (the newer models)
Ok, so I assume the back still needs to read the data from the sensor in darkness (I think all CCDs work this way) and therefore the sensor is reset and begins to collect data halfway through the 1/1800 exposure time? If so, the flash sync signal must also be delayed. Just trying to figure this feature out.
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In the bullet points it is written "1/800 sec flash sync" which is wrong and a bit misleading for those who don't read the whole article. It is still 1/125 for the vast majority of cases.
Why is it wrong and misleading? The 645DF is sold as a kit with the 80mm LS lens. This lens has 1/800 sync. The body has 1./125 sync with other lenses and its FP shutter, and 1/1600 sync with an LS lens and a P40+ pr P65+.
I suppose one could write a paragraph such as the above so that nit pickers aren't offended, but it would seriously impede the flow of information don't you think?
Michael
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Why is it wrong and misleading?
Because to the newcomer it implies that this is a leaf shutter system like the Hasselblad H or Hy6, and that this sync speed is universal for the whole system. The reality is that 90+% of the shots taken with this camera will not be taken with a leaf shutter and will not enjoy this sync speed.
And it wouldn't take a paragraph to clarify. "1/125 or up to 1/1600 with leaf shutter lenses" would make it clear to all
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IMHO the original copy was completely clear. Well said Michael
FWIW I had a short time with the 645DF earlier this week. For me the AF speed has jumped a big distance from 'appalling' to 'acceptable'. I'll be testing one with the 80mm Schneider lens shortly. If it performs, then I'll upgrade from the AFD3. Thanks for the review.
Olaf
www.olafwilloughby.com
Why is it wrong and misleading? The 645DF is sold as a kit with the 80mm LS lens. This lens has 1/800 sync. The body has 1./125 sync with other lenses and its FP shutter, and 1/1600 sync with an LS lens and a P40+ pr P65+.
I suppose one could write a paragraph such as the above so that nit pickers aren't offended, but it would seriously impede the flow of information don't you think?
Michael
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Because to the newcomer it implies that this is a leaf shutter system like the Hasselblad H or Hy6, and that this sync speed is universal for the whole system.
Fair enough. I've modified the listing accordingly.
Michael
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How does the Mamiya DF AF work in low light? The Hasselblad H lenses do fairly well.
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Thanks for the review Michael.
"Faster shutter responsiveness"
Does the above mean that there is less of that annoying shutter lag (delay) that the previous Mamiyas have? ;-)
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I don't understand the question about how the camera responds in "low light". Could you rephrase it? What exactly are you referring to?
There is definitely less shutter lag than the previous model, but I can't put a number to it.
Michael
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Ok, so I assume the back still needs to read the data from the sensor in darkness (I think all CCDs work this way) and therefore the sensor is reset and begins to collect data halfway through the 1/1800 exposure time? If so, the flash sync signal must also be delayed. Just trying to figure this feature out.
I asked about this at PODAS. 1/1600th is achieved using a combination of the leaf shutter and "electronic" shutter if you have the 645DF and newer back. How it actually works I'm not sure, what you describe sounds like fair description of a possibility.
I think this is probably similar to how Canon dSLR's can sync up to 1/8000th with certain strobes, as we know the physical focal plane curtains can't work that fast.
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Thanks for the review Michael.
"Faster shutter responsiveness"
Does the above mean that there is less of that annoying shutter lag (delay) that the previous Mamiyas have? ;-)
Yes the shutter responsive is very good. I was very impressed with the improvements over tha p1 body. Also af is alot faster.
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I asked about this at PODAS. 1/1600th is achieved using a combination of the leaf shutter and "electronic" shutter if you have the 645DF and newer back. How it actually works I'm not sure, what you describe sounds like fair description of a possibility.
I think this is probably similar to how Canon dSLR's can sync up to 1/8000th with certain strobes, as we know the physical focal plane curtains can't work that fast.
Yes as I said, some kind of delay
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I don't understand the question about how the camera responds in "low light". Could you rephrase it? What exactly are you referring to?
There is definitely less shutter lag than the previous model, but I can't put a number to it.
Michael
"Low light" means a light level that is not high. For instance, in a studio situation where one or two softbox modeling lights are lighting the set for focusing and framing the picture. Of course, contrast levels are lower in this kind of setting. I could never get a Mamiya 645 AFD with f/2.8 - f/4 lenses to lock into focus in that situation. That was my main reason for migrating over to the H platform. The H2F that I use in conjunction with the CF back and f/4 lenses locks into focus accurately without hunting in low light low contrast situations. I never had issues with the Mamiya AFD focusing in brightly lit scenes where there was a lot of contrast.
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Thanks for the review Michael.
"Faster shutter responsiveness"
Does the above mean that there is less of that annoying shutter lag (delay) that the previous Mamiyas have? ;-)
I still have the AF body that I'm trading in for the DF and actually spent some time comparing them when I got home from PODAS. When pressing the shutter the new DF seems to be more a little more responsive than the AF. Some of this is the actual mechanics of the shutter release button ... just smoother and less "throw". I think there is a little more to it than that, and of course it depends on if you've prefocused, etc. I been using a Hasselblad H1 for some time, and I don't notice the phase camera being much different than it.
There is still an annoying lag when using mirror up and a cable release. During PODAS, I talked with Claus Molgaard (PhaseOne CTO and VP of R&D) about this, and after some discussion and working with a camera, it appears the delay is caused by the diaphragm stopping down - you can actually hear a noise from the lens. This occurs simultaneously to the mirror moving up when not using mirror lockup so it isn't noticeable then, but in mirror up mode it waits until you actually press the shutter release. I got the impression from him this is an addressable issue by simply stopping down the diaphragm when locking the mirror up ... hopefully remedied in a firmware update.
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I think this is probably similar to how Canon dSLR's can sync up to 1/8000th with certain strobes, as we know the physical focal plane curtains can't work that fast.
Although I don't know for sure, I can make an intelligent guess about how Canon's system works. The only way to achieve it with a focal plane shutter is to start the flash before the first curtain moves, and stop it after the second curtain closes. You are effectively creating a continuous light with the flash for the whole duration of the exposure.
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Although I don't know for sure, I can make an intelligent guess about how Canon's system works. The only way to achieve it with a focal plane shutter is to start the flash before the first curtain moves, and stop it after the second curtain closes. You are effectively creating a continuous light with the flash for the whole duration of the exposure.
Correct. The technologies employed by Canon and Phase to accomplish high sync speed are NOT the same. One is using a stroboscopic effect to create effectively continuous light during the entirety of the focal plane travel and the other is dealing with the timing of the sensor.
The upside of the Canon method is you can get down to the ludicrous 1/8000th speed. The downside of the Canon method is the ammount of flash power you're able to produce is extremely limited at 1/8000th and you can only use a select number of compatible flashes.
The upside of the Phase method is you can use FULL power of the strobe and you can use a variety of strobes. The downside of the Phase method is you're limited to "only" 1/1600 (though that's really way more than you need 99.9% of the time) and you must use a leaf shutter lens and a digital back engineered.
Of note of course is the fact that Phase's Schneider Leaf Shutter Lenses will sync at 1/800 with any digital back. Only the 1/1600 sync requires a 65+/40+.
Doug
Doug Peterson ()
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The downside of the Canon method is the ammount of flash power you're able to produce is extremely limited at 1/8000th and you can only use a select number of compatible flashes.
Another big downside to the Canon method is that if you are shooting at a relatively low speed, e.g. 1/400, the flash will be of the same long duration and won't freeze any fast movement as a normal flash would.
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Although I don't know for sure, I can make an intelligent guess about how Canon's system works. The only way to achieve it with a focal plane shutter is to start the flash before the first curtain moves, and stop it after the second curtain closes. You are effectively creating a continuous light with the flash for the whole duration of the exposure.
Correct. The technologies employed by Canon and Phase to accomplish high sync speed are NOT the same. One is using a stroboscopic effect to create effectively continuous light during the entirety of the focal plane travel and the other is dealing with the timing of the sensor.
Intriguing. I've always wondered how Canon did this. Basically the Canon fires the flash continuously as the focal plane "slice" moves across the sensor path - the actual flash "speed" is 1/8000th of a second, but the overall time to take the picture is still limited by the cameras base flash sync speed. Indeed it doesn't seem to be extremely useful for the reasons mentioned ...
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I have a question, do i have to buy a PhaseOne DF camera to use the new LS lenses or can i use the new lenses with my "old" PhaseOne 645 camera?
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I have a question, do i have to buy a PhaseOne DF camera to use the new LS lenses or can i use the new lenses with my "old" PhaseOne 645 camera?
You can use them but I think a firmware update is needed and not sure all functions is possible.
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I have a question, do i have to buy a PhaseOne DF camera to use the new LS lenses or can i use the new lenses with my "old" PhaseOne 645 camera?
i have not heard any statement by mamiya/phase regarding this issue.
but michael reichman mentions in his article that - with some firmware upgrade - it will be possible to use those lenses with the older cameras as announced more than a year ago.
as long as this firmware upgrade is not bundled with some obscure warranty for 800 euro or so, its good news and brings back some credibility to a company that has been pissing off their cusromers for quite a while.
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I have a question, do i have to buy a PhaseOne DF camera to use the new LS lenses or can i use the new lenses with my "old" PhaseOne 645 camera?
From my review....
"Please note that the leaf shutter lenses will also work on older firmware-updated 645AF and 645AFDIII models, but without the 1/1600 top sync speed."
Your local Phase One dealer will be able to do the firmware upgrade for you.
And by the way, something that I forgot to mention in the review is that the new vertical grip (645DF only) will have a USB port, and will allow camera firmware upgrades in future by the user.
Michael
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Thanks a lot
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I used the DF on a job recently briefly and basically it does what it says, slightly faster AF and slightly less shutter lag. I still used my old trusty AFD for most of the shoot though, I like the AFD's AF, slow but reliable and accurate and the shutter lag to me is insignificant. Anyway, back to editing for me...
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Your local Phase One dealer will be able to do the firmware upgrade for you.
Just to be clear....The "Phase One Camera" is a Mamiya. If you bought the camera from Phase One, then they should do the upgrades. If it is a Mamiya branded camera, then Mamiya dealers would do the upgrades.
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So, how well does the Mamiya DF's autofocus work in dimly lit environments with reduced overall scene contrast?
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I wonder about low light AF also, as I have sometimes need an extra light to focus with the AFD2. I wonder if it has better communication. I get lockups between the ZD and the AFD2. I cleaned contacts so that's not the problem. I read that other backs have communication problems also.
Bill
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Another big downside to the Canon method is that if you are shooting at a relatively low speed, e.g. 1/400, the flash will be of the same long duration and won't freeze any fast movement as a normal flash would.
Actually, with FP flash as with any FP shutter at high shutter speed, each part of the image is exposed only for the stated time like 1/4000s, but with different parts exposed at different times over a total period of about 1/300s that the shutter curtains take to complete their trip. So motion blur is controlled, but images can be spatially distorted: the famous "leaning over car" effect. Think of FP flash as continuous lighting, but only continuing for about 1/300s.
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Actually, with FP flash as with any FP shutter at high shutter speed, each part of the image is exposed only for the stated time like 1/4000s, but with different parts exposed at different times over a total period of about 1/300s that the shutter curtains take to complete their trip. So motion blur is controlled, but images can be spatially distorted: the famous "leaning over car" effect. Think of FP flash as continuous lighting, but only continuing for about 1/300s.
We just finished shooting a large lifestyle project on two sets. All of the imagery had interaction between the talent, some fast like running, some slower like jumping up on sofas and ended up using the 1ds3' and profotos.
Of the two sets one was quite large as the scenes involved multiple talent, usually 4 models, so the lights had to be a distance away.so I thought I'd probably have to go to specialty lights or bitubes to hold the detail of the movement, but on the more severe movement we just upped the iso a stop or two, cut the power down on the profotos and the imagery was sharp, like full length subjects where the eyelashes were sharp.
I don't know what the flash duration was, but of course the Canons sync is 1/ 250th, though all I cared about was getting it sharp and it was sharp, all handheld, all at about F11.
For real intense movement I use photogenic monolights. They're not sexy, but I have about 30 of them of they've worked for years. If you up the iso to about 640 to 800 or so and cut the power of the monoheads to 1/16th you get a flash duration of 1/4000th of a second and we've used these to hold detail that is amazing, but you do need a camera that can go to clean higher iso.
You also get a recycle time of less than a tenth of a second so it gives you the chance to shoot multiple frames.
With advertising, the rule of the last few years is interaction and freezing the moment. It seems like every creative brief I see mentions reality, interaction, even if the shoot is in studio so you need equipment that is fast to set up and fast to make changes, both cameras and lights.
The way budgets and schedules now run, you don't have the time luxury of taking 20 minutes between sessions to change and fine tune light. It now needs to be a 3 or 4 minute process and we put the lights on stands with rollers so we can make the adjustments quickly.
Now that we add video to most sessions, we do the same with the 5d2. The sticks are on rollers with a few marks on the floor as to where we will set up. We adjust the lights, shoot the stills, roll the video camera in to positon 1, shoot a sequence, roll it in to postion 2 shoot a sequence and on to the next session.
If this sounds like less quality that's not the objective. Client requests now are non compromising. It's everything, the lighting, the look, the posing the styling, but everything has to be faster.
BC.
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So, how well does the Mamiya DF's autofocus work in dimly lit environments with reduced overall scene contrast?
When shooting at sunrise in Death Valley, the camera would begin to auto focus much earlier than I thought it would as the morning light increased. I was using 10-20 second exposure times and had difficulty seeing the image through to viewfinder to compose yet the autofocus seemed to be working.
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With advertising, the rule of the last few years is interaction and freezing the moment. It seems like every creative brief I see mentions reality, interaction, even if the shoot is in studio so you need equipment that is fast to set up and fast to make changes, both cameras and lights.
Thanks for the inside details. Given the trend you describe above, what gear do you see being preferred for advertising in the coming years: 35mm format digital, MF with the current sensor types (Full Frame type CCD), or a hoped for "third way"? I have my guesses, but am biting my tongue to hear what the "players" say.
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The way budgets and schedules now run, you don't have the time luxury of taking 20 minutes between sessions to change and fine tune light. It now needs to be a 3 or 4 minute process and we put the lights on stands with rollers so we can make the adjustments quickly.
So many of my friends are going to those Canon500EX type strobes, or the Nikon versions, and not even getting out the 7B's or the 600B's. They rave about them, with this weird glaze in their eyes, like they've found The Holy Grail.
I'd like to slap each and every one of them.
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So many of my friends are going to those Canon500EX type strobes, or the Nikon versions, and not even getting out the 7B's or the 600B's. They rave about them, with this weird glaze in their eyes, like they've found The Holy Grail.
I'd like to slap each and every one of them.
I have two of those Canon flashes and don't use them much. They can be a lifesaver, but in studio or using large modifiers I kind of don't see the point. I have moved to umbrellas more than octobanks because I find I can do more with them either as shoot through or silver bounce and they fold up easy, are light weight, small and very inexpensive.
With all my flash I try to use 250 watt modeling lights, cause since we are shooting some video footage if proportioned correctly on a 5d2 you can use the modeling lights for the video and that camera seems to work fine in video at a billion or so asa.
As far as still cameras, I'm not getting into that argument anymore cause it brings up too much angst about three dee, ultimate image quality, clean blue channels, whatever. This is a forum that sells equipment and I'm not in the equipment selling biz, so I just use what works for me and right now the 1ds3's for 90% of what I do works for me.
I do know that at least for my work, I've got to have a camera that's moveable in a lot of ways with a decent lcd, it has to tether securely and well, it has to have moveable iso. Those things are a must because without that I just end up lugging two extra camera cases.
BC
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So many of my friends are going to those Canon500EX type strobes, or the Nikon versions, and not even getting out the 7B's or the 600B's. They rave about them, with this weird glaze in their eyes, like they've found The Holy Grail.
I'd like to slap each and every one of them.
They need to be deprogrammed. All that Strobist Kool-Aid.
In all seriousness, the on camera flashes are good, and when used well, give a nice result, but I can't stand using them. The closest I get to liking the on camera flash systems is when I put an SB 28 on a Holga.