Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Dave Gurtcheff on November 11, 2009, 04:28:50 pm
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I went to a local museum, and saw a wonderful Photo Exhibit of B&W prints by a single photographer. Flush mounted uncropped traditional prints of all sizes (some from 35mm that were probably 20"x30"). Print quality was superb. Next to each print was the title, and "Silver Gelatin Print". I told my friends that was the "new word" for good old fashioned darkroom prints, that many of us made. I had a fully equipped darkroom for 50 years, and sold and exhibited my traditional prints (both B&W and "C" prints). I have an opportunity to have an exhibit as well in the same museum. Apparently the Artist must specify the medium ("Oils on Canvas", "Silver Gelatin Print". etc). What do we call this new medium? "Digital Pigment Print"?? "Giclee Pigment Print", "Inkjet on Baryatta" (spelling?). I know there is possibly a snob appeal that would disfavor an ink jet print, but that aside, what have you called your work when faced with an important exhibit?
Thanks in advance
Dave Gurtcheff
www.modernpictorials.com
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I've been using "Archival Pigment Print"
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Print specification has historically conformed to one of the following two naming conventions:
Example #1
[process] [media]
silver gelatin fiber base print
Example #2
[process] print on [media]
silver gelatin print on fiber base paper
If we continue to use these conventions for pigmented inkjet prints we might have:
Example #1
[process] [media]
pigment fiber base print
Example #2
[process] print on [media]
pigment print on fiber base paper
Some more well specified examples:
Pigment print on cotton rag paper
Warm toned pigment print on cotton rag paper
Coated pigment print on canvas
Silver gelatin digital print on metallic paper
"Archival Inkjet Print" has been a pretty decent term that seen a lot of good use throughout the last decade. While it's good enough for most usage, curators and collectors like to point out that they want to know more, like what type of paper was used and whither or not it is coated. While "archival" was reassuring 10 years ago it's practically a given today. Terms like "photo", "fine art" and "digital" are not very specific and could mean a variety of things. One exception to this is the "digital silver gelatin print" (made from a durst, Lightjet, Noritsu, etc) that is sometimes nice to distinguish from an optical silver gelatin print made directly from a film original.
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I went to a local museum, and saw a wonderful Photo Exhibit of B&W prints by a single photographer. Flush mounted uncropped traditional prints of all sizes (some from 35mm that were probably 20"x30"). Print quality was superb. Next to each print was the title, and "Silver Gelatin Print". I told my friends that was the "new word" for good old fashioned darkroom prints, that many of us made. I had a fully equipped darkroom for 50 years, and sold and exhibited my traditional prints (both B&W and "C" prints). I have an opportunity to have an exhibit as well in the same museum. Apparently the Artist must specify the medium ("Oils on Canvas", "Silver Gelatin Print". etc). What do we call this new medium? "Digital Pigment Print"?? "Giclee Pigment Print", "Inkjet on Baryatta" (spelling?). I know there is possibly a snob appeal that would disfavor an ink jet print, but that aside, what have you called your work when faced with an important exhibit?
Thanks in advance
Dave Gurtcheff
www.modernpictorials.com
I like "pigment ink print on 100% cotton rag paper" (if that's what you're printing on). It's accurate and upscale without being too pretentious. For an exhibit this can be accompanied by an artist's statement describing the inkset and paper used, with estimates of longevity and glowing description of the æsthetic and archival virtues of such prints compared to earlier forms of photographic color prints. It's entirely appropriate to indicate the much greater expected longevity and controllability of inkjet prints over C-prints, Cibachrome/Ilfochrome—better longevity than even dye transfer prints if they're displayed rather than stored in the dark. This can go a long way toward defusing anti-digital snobbery.
Just my 2¢, but "giclee" will probably turn off more folks than it will impress.
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Unfortunately, I'm stuck with the term giclee in my market here in Hawaii for about 90% of the clients I print for. Some galleries are starting to veer away from the word a little, but it seems to resonate with the more democratic end of the art buying market, vs. collectors. I print for someone who exhibits at an exclusive gallery in San Francisco, though, that has my inkjet prints labeled as chromagenic prints. It sounds nice, but is deceptive. He is one of the last people I know that still shoots film, but the connection is tenuous at best, as what the client walks away with is an archival inkjet print. The fact that there was a little silver in the process upstream seems largely irrelevant to me in terms of the label on the print. I prefer to call my personal work "archival pigment print on (paper name)".
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I follow Brooks Jensen's lead here and go for "Pigment on paper", based on similar logic to what others have written above.
Neil
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Unfortunately, I'm stuck with the term giclee in my market here in Hawaii for about 90% of the clients I print for.
My condolences.
A couple of years ago my wife & I were checking out booths at the yearly Clothesline art festival in Rochester. One of the exhibitors had some saccharine inkjet prints of flowers on canvas. I overheard her spiel to a potential customer, delivered in a dense Southern accent: "It's a special French process; it's called 'Zhee-Clay'". My wife dragged me out of the booth by the arm because I was having a hard time suppressing my instinctive laughter.
Honestly, I love inkjet prints on canvas for some images. But let's not be precious about it. Let's call the what they are.
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Last time I was at Andrew Smith Gallery I saw several "Epson Pigment Prints" of well know images from Jerry Uelsmann, among others. That's a little dated now, but that term was one of the first to lend a bit of legitimacy to inkjet fine art prints. Does it really matter any more? How about "photograph". People are generally more interested in buying an image, than in buying an example of a particular media. OK, there are exceptions, collectors and what not, but we concentrate on them too much.
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My condolences.
"It's a special French process; it's called 'Zhee-Clay'".
Yeah, it's as french as the potatoes they serve at McDonalds. I'd be so much more likely to endorse the word if there was a Pierre or Marcel in the early lore of inkjet printing, instead of a French-English dictionary. Sigh.
On the use of a corporate brand in the process name, though, I have to hold my nose as well. I don't think it adds anything to the perception of it being art vs .a commodity when you tag on a company's name.
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I have a gallery show, beginning tomorrow - I will be exhibiting inkjet (Z3100) pigment prints on rag paper - I am going, this time, with "Archival Pigment Print."
Howard
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Same here. Pigment on Paper. eleanor
I follow Brooks Jensen's lead here and go for "Pigment on paper", based on similar logic to what others have written above.
Neil
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Same here. Pigment on Paper. eleanor
Pigment print for me.
Over here there's one camp that tries to fortify the term Giclée with additional qualifications like Art, Certified, etc and there are the ones that give Piëzography, Piëzografie, a wider context beyond printing B&W with piëzo heads despite the fact that they use thermo head printers as well.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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Pig on Paper for short.
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I, too, have decided to cease using the term "Giclée à la Mode l’Effete Snob" and go with "Pigment on Paper."
Eric
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Thanks for all the replies; and thanks for taking me seriously. I tend to like "Archival Pigmant Print", or "Pigment on Paper", from the replies above.
Again.........
thanks
Dave G.
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In exhibitions I always referred to my darkroom prints on RC and various fiber papers as "black and white photographs."
Now that I am printing on the z3100, I continue to use the description, "black and white photograph" and "color photograph." Keeping it simple here. If someone inquires about the process, I can give them more info. than they want. Viewers seem to appreciate the use of a term that everyone understands.
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Giclée? C'est dépassé! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojY1Sj1-E0Q) The "Pig on Paper" thing has definitely an edge, yup.
A bit more descriptive (if it's what it's about), pigment inkjet print on (whatever) paper?
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Let me add that although it's a French word, I strongly recommend not using the term "giclee" in France, since in slang we sometimes use it as a synonym of ejaculation.
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"Pigment ink on Rag paper" for me
Julie
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Let me add that although it's a French word, I strongly recommend not using the term "giclee" in France, since in slang we sometimes use it as a synonym of ejaculation.
"Ejaculate on alpha cellulose paper" then? I do have a client that stuck his own blood in his inkjet printer and tried printing with it.
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Here in México "Plata/gelatina" (Silver gelatin) is been the standard for decades for b&w darkroom photographs. "Impresion cromogénica" (Chromogenic print) for C color prints and "Cibachrome" for what else? Cibachrome.
Now with the digital prints is crazy and each individual photographer has to come with a ad-hoc name to describe the "technique".
I use Giclèe for pigments prints on cotton paper, "Ulltrachrome print" when I use a photographic Epson paper like P Luster. For my most recent B&W landscape photography I printed on Harman with an Epson 7880, so I used "Pigment on baryta".
During the last 4 years or so, "Piezografía" it's been popular among photographers in Mexico city (mainly) to describe a b&w print made with carbon pigments, but unluckily, many other photographers are using this term to describe any ink-jet b&w pigment print made with standard inks.
I never liked this term for 2 reasons. First: It describes the type of the printing head like in an Epson. If I follow suit should I call it "Thermography" if made with a Canon printer? No go in my opinion. Second, Piezography is a commercial brand owned by John Cone, the first guy to come with a civilized carbon system to replace the then not so good inksets for b&w printing of 2004 (circa). The ABW controls in the latest Epson printers took care of that though a lot of photogs still prefer carbon inks.
I like "Pigment on paper"
Eduardo
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Let me add that although it's a French word, I strongly recommend not using the term "giclee" in France, since in slang we sometimes use it as a synonym of ejaculation.
Yes, and it might even be related to why I thought of Boris Vian's (which I knew first with Vercoquin et le Plancton when I was 15) song, apart from the illustration of the "snob" word.
Anyway I wouldn't think there were many people having heard of IRIS printers and the like at their time here in France, don't you think?
And by the way why not call inkjet prints... inkjet prints?
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And by the way why not call inkjet prints... inkjet prints?
Because general fine art convention in any media requires the exact medium on the exact substrate. Inkjet ink can be dye or pigment ink. and papers can be all types of papers.... so for eg; pigment ink on cotton rag paper says it exactly how it is.
Julie
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I went to a local museum, and saw a wonderful Photo Exhibit of B&W prints by a single photographer. Flush mounted uncropped traditional prints of all sizes (some from 35mm that were probably 20"x30"). Print quality was superb. Next to each print was the title, and "Silver Gelatin Print". I told my friends that was the "new word" for good old fashioned darkroom prints, that many of us made. I had a fully equipped darkroom for 50 years, and sold and exhibited my traditional prints (both B&W and "C" prints). I have an opportunity to have an exhibit as well in the same museum. Apparently the Artist must specify the medium ("Oils on Canvas", "Silver Gelatin Print". etc). What do we call this new medium? "Digital Pigment Print"?? "Giclee Pigment Print", "Inkjet on Baryatta" (spelling?). I know there is possibly a snob appeal that would disfavor an ink jet print, but that aside, what have you called your work when faced with an important exhibit?
Thanks in advance
Dave Gurtcheff
www.modernpictorials.com
I call them "unsold."
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While "archival" was reassuring 10 years ago it's practically a given today.
Yes, if only it were true, if only it had a clear and concise meaning. It isn't, and it doesn't.
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Yes, if only it were true, if only it had a clear and concise meaning. It isn't, and it doesn't.
From the perspective of what you do I totally agree. As far as labeling prints and communicating to potential print buyers, ten years ago there was lots of uncertantity about the longivity of inkjet prints relative to silver gelatin prints. To say "Archival Pigment Print" today is redundant and excessive. "Pigment ink print on [whatever] paper" really says a lot today and communicates that it will last a long time.
But I hear you. The term "archival" is loaded and undefined and should be used with caution, if at all. All the better to leave it out in this context.
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I'm sure we can all agree that the word "archival" is not particularly concise, but I think we can also agree that one year falls outside of the loosest definition of the word.
I have a client that had a number of prints on canvas made over the last several years on an Epson 9600. She is dealing with multiple clients that are asking for replacement prints due to ink fading. Some of them are only a year old. One or two of them might be attributable to a poor choice of display conditions, but I don't think that they could all be accused of displaying them in direct sunshine. The client is an artist that had them shot, printed, clearcoated and stretched by a competitor of mine. He is refusing to make good and the client is having to foot the bill herself to save face. I don't know what exactly he did, but he allegedly used a third party inkset. Fading issues are largely a non-issue these days, but not unheard of.
I'm reprinting another group of paintings on canvas for a different client (who used a different competitor) that have patches of ink falling off of the face and edges. Those are only about two years old.
I'm going to employ the word "archival" at bit longer, at least. Personally, I couldn't sleep at night worrying about untested materials and their longevity. The cost savings aren't worth it. I'm happy knowing that HP's R&D budget was well invested in terms of ink longevity.
BTW: These were full color images, so I don't know what inkset might be at fault.
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From the perspective of what you do I totally agree. As far as labeling prints and communicating to potential print buyers, ten years ago there was lots of uncertantity about the longivity of inkjet prints relative to silver gelatin prints. To say "Archival Pigment Print" today is redundant and excessive. "Pigment ink print on [whatever] paper" really says a lot today and communicates that it will last a long time.
But I hear you. The term "archival" is loaded and undefined and should be used with caution, if at all. All the better to leave it out in this context.
It's not just ambiguity of the term archival I'm talking about. "Archival pigment print" sounds redundant only if you think all pigments and digital fine art papers are inherently stable. However, using a pigmented ink on a lignin-free, acid-free "fine art" paper doesn't guarantee the print is automatically long lasting. Even if we benchmark the performance against well known traditional dye-based photographs like Fuji Crystal Archive paper some of those "archival pigment prints" aren't necessarily more durable. For example, artists who like bright white fine art papers are choosing a paper that more often than not also contains a unique class of dyes. OBAs are dyes that just happen to fluoresce, but especially when concentrated in a microporous inkjet paper coating, those dyes can often become the weak link to the onset of noticeable visual changes in print quality as the print ages. They can be prematurely and significantl affected by both light fading and gas fading issues compared to the pigmented colorants. Because their initial presence in the paper affects not only paper color but also any highlight areas in the print, their loss of fluorescence will affect more than just the border white color of the paper. And, although the major OEM pigmented inks are all reasonably robust on a wide variety of substrates, I've tested third party pigmented inks that are less stable than some dye-based systems. Hence, "pigment ink on cotton paper" simply doesn't guarantee the kind of durability that many people now believe can be taken for granted. Even for the OEM pigments, paper chemistry can affect lightfastness, for example, by a factor of 3 or more, so the moral of the story is that for any artist who truly wants to provide a long lasting print and be able to speak confidently about choice of materials, one must make an informed choice when matching inks and papers. My advice to the cautious collector would be always to ascertain what printer, ink, paper, and possible coatings were used when purchasing a contemporary inkjet print. As we learn more about the long term performance of modern digital media, that knowledge of materials and processes used in the making of the art may become much more relevant as time goes by.
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I am very cautious about using the adjective "archival." We must remember that all the data we have is from accelerated stability testing, not real time, and under controlled conditions. The testing does not account for all the various conditions that a print might face in real life. Regardless of what ink set or paper that we use, we cannot promise the prints to resist fading; all we can do is inform the purchaser about what inks were used (and other treatments of the surface as appropriate) and the presentation conditions that will maximize longevity. It took a fair amount of time to understand all the chemical reactions in traditional photography and that we had to be meticulous about getting rid of the last traces of hypo. We understood the limitations of color chemistry. Finally, I don't think that any artist media (oil paints, water color, various sculpture materials) promise archival quality (I'm sure that non of the renaissance painters sold paintings labeled as "archival oil on canvas" or "special paint on fresco"). All we can do is state the facts and provide interested parties a link to the ongoing research.
I'm just happy when a view of my pigment print on cotton rag calls it a "nice picture."
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although the major OEM pigmented inks are all reasonably robust on a wide variety of substrates, I've tested third party pigmented inks that are less stable than some dye-based systems. Hence, "pigment ink on cotton paper" simply doesn't guarantee the kind of durability that many people now believe can be taken for granted.
Yes, and that's also why "Archival Pigment print" doesn't guarantee longevity, and another reason to ditch the word "archival". Many people are making these prints from 3rd party inks on a variety of papers (including those with OBAs). "Archival Pigment print" is becoming the new "Giclee" and is being used by those who put little thought into the process or specification of the process. So when I see a print labeled as "Archival Pigment print" I am suspicious and want to learn more. What kind of ink is it and what kind of paper? Again, "Archival Pigment print" is pretty generic, and subject to misunderstanding. I'll never forget when a photographer friend of mine printed his work on a dye based 8x10 inkjet printer in 2000 and called it a Giclee. To a more limited extent, it's happening again with "Archival Pigment print."
Even for the OEM pigments, paper chemistry can affect lightfastness, for example, by a factor of 3 or more, so the moral of the story is that for any artist who truly wants to provide a long lasting print and be able to speak confidently about choice of materials, one must make an informed choice when matching inks and papers. My advice to the cautious collector would be always to ascertain what printer, ink, paper, and possible coatings were used when purchasing a contemporary inkjet print. As we learn more about the long term performance of modern digital media, that knowledge of materials and processes used in the making of the art may become much more relevant as time goes by.
Well said. I have a client that made a feature out of the metamerism on his Epson 9500 prints. His eerie portraits were carefully lit and would appear to change color as the viewer moved around the room. Now that the inkset is long gone, these prints are becoming more precious/exotic and I can imagine collectors trying to describe metamerism to future generations.
"Pigment ink print on [whatever] paper" isn't a bad place to start when making labels for exhibition. When print sales are made, however, more detailed information about the print are in order. Inkset, paper, OBAs, coatings including brand names are all useful to the collector and become more interesting as time goes by.
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Pigment Print.
I leave off the word "archival", since it is a subjective term. I see it done both ways in the museum and gallery world. (with and without "archival") I'll tell a client more about the paper, if asked, but don't label it that way because it's too much detail for me.
I think incorporating the name of the printer is just stupid. (Same goes for the use of the word "digital".) Akin to using the name of your paint brush for a painting.
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Pigment Print.
I leave off the word "archival", since it is a subjective term. I see it done both ways in the museum and gallery world. (with and without "archival") I'll tell a client more about the paper, if asked, but don't label it that way because it's too much detail for me.
Yet there are historical print processes with vastly different underlying technologies such as tri-color carbro, collotypes, etc., that could also generically be called a "pigment print". Which begs the question: What is the aversion to calling an inkjet print made with pigmented inks a "pigmented inkjet print"? That would quickly allow the buyer to understand the true nature of the print production process, and its potential (although no guarantee) for longevity. I suspect the term inkjet is being shoved under the bus because somehow "inkjet" has become associated with "cheap". Too bad. The fine art prints we are making with the latest inkjet technologies are impressive and inspiring on many levels. The term inkjet no longer deserves such second-class citizen status.
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I suspect the term inkjet is being shoved under the bus because somehow "inkjet" has become associated with "cheap". Too bad. The fine art prints we are making with the latest inkjet technologies are impressive and inspiring on many levels. The term inkjet no longer deserves such second-class citizen status.
I couldn't agree more. I have a mini gallery of my pictures in the hallway at work. The other day the admin to our boss was up on the floor and saw the pictures. She couldn't beleive the quality and when I told her the came from an inkjet printer she was surprised. Most people are only familiar with low end color printers that have at best four colors. I'm pretty clear with foks that these come from a photostylus inkjet printer (I believe those are Epson's terms).
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I went to a local museum, and saw a wonderful Photo Exhibit of B&W prints by a single photographer. Flush mounted uncropped traditional prints of all sizes (some from 35mm that were probably 20"x30"). Print quality was superb. Next to each print was the title, and "Silver Gelatin Print". I told my friends that was the "new word" for good old fashioned darkroom prints, that many of us made. I had a fully equipped darkroom for 50 years, and sold and exhibited my traditional prints (both B&W and "C" prints). I have an opportunity to have an exhibit as well in the same museum. Apparently the Artist must specify the medium ("Oils on Canvas", "Silver Gelatin Print". etc). What do we call this new medium? "Digital Pigment Print"?? "Giclee Pigment Print", "Inkjet on Baryatta" (spelling?). I know there is possibly a snob appeal that would disfavor an ink jet print, but that aside, what have you called your work when faced with an important exhibit?
Thanks in advance
Dave Gurtcheff
www.modernpictorials.com
Depending on what printer/ink combination and what paper you're using, you could say carbon pigment (in the case of color) or simply carbon (if that's true) on "name paper here." Or if using something like Cone(?) ink you could say Dye on...
Mine are mostly "Carbon Pigment on Museo Silver Rag" or in some cases "Carbon on Premiere Smooth BW."
I don't like to use the word archival.
Michael
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Depending on what printer/ink combination and what paper you're using, you could say carbon pigment (in the case of color)...
Michael
I thought carbon was like Model T's, and only came in one color. Black.