Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: DanielStone on November 02, 2009, 03:57:42 am
-
I was looking through ALPA's discontinued products the other day, and I noticed that they had they had the SST still up.
I was hooked. Now, I'm just a humble photo student, not even at the beginning of his career yet, but I must say; I was lusting very badly
having considered the digital world from capture to output (I'm still mainly with m/f and l/f film), its just too expensive right now to get in.
Then I figured, why didn't they continue with this? I mean, so many people use technical cameras, I have a friend who uses a P25+ with a A12max and SWA for shooting architecture. He loves it! But he's complained to me multiple times of wanting a sliding back, so he can focus(well, rough focus) on the g/g, and just slide the back in to shoot it. He uses film still on occasion, and it would be a treat to do it like this, compose, and slide in your 6x9 film back and shoot.
it is bukly, I'll give it that. and probably more cumbersome than some(probably most) people would want.
but I'd bet it would have people buying it. even if it was a special order item.
and to me, its a very nice looking camera, my opinion
here's some pics so you can see
http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/p...mp;output=thumb (http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/products/234/ALPA12SST-Back2.jpg&width=550&height=550&crop=middle_center&output=thumb)
http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/p...mp;output=thumb (http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/products/234/ALPA12SST-Front1.jpg&width=550&height=550&crop=middle_center&output=thumb)
http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/p...mp;output=thumb (http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/products/234/ALPA12SST-Side1.jpg&width=550&height=550&crop=middle_center&output=thumb)
http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/p...mp;output=thumb (http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/products/234/ALPA12SST-Back1.jpg&width=550&height=550&crop=middle_center&output=thumb)
http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/p...mp;output=thumb (http://www.alpa.ch/image.php?file=images/products/234/ALPA12SST-Top1.jpg&width=550&height=550&crop=middle_center&output=thumb)
any ideas? any future products that might be like this?
-Dan
-
<<any ideas? any future products that might be like this?>>
The Sinar arTec !
PdF
-
any ideas?
Sinar ArTec
-
but I don't believe the artec can take film backs, or am I wrong?
6x7(rb67) or 6x9 roll film backs are what I'd be most interested in.
I looked at the cambo wide ds, they're nice. And they can shoot 4x5 too. and I guess it would be possible to get one and put a phase sliding back onto it. anyone done this?
-
but I don't believe the artec can take film backs, or am I wrong?
6x7(rb67) or 6x9 roll film backs are what I'd be most interested in.
I looked at the cambo wide ds, they're nice. And they can shoot 4x5 too. and I guess it would be possible to get one and put a phase sliding back onto it. anyone done this?
if u buy the artec with the hassy v adapter you should be able to mount filmbacks with 4,5x6cm size.
-
if u buy the artec with the hassy v adapter you should be able to mount filmbacks with 4,5x6cm size.
Well now if SInar would get it and offer the artec in Phase/Mam mount so that we could actually use it...
For the rest, I think there is none, because there is no real need. Making such a camera for film, is a waste of money. You would never sell enough. Making it for digital, the question starts, how much does it makes sense ? I haven't tried the artec, but with larger cameras that have a ballow, focusing isn't made any easier. For smaller cameras like the WRS-100 or similar, it would just make them bulky.
-
but I don't believe the artec can take film backs, or am I wrong?
Dear Daniel,
Yes, of course you can use film on the arTec:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__ga...19-50-2158.html (http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__gast-e-2019-50-2158.html)
"With the Sinar arTec HB-V also film photography is possible using a Hasselblad type A12 or A16 Roll film magazine. An appropriate mechanism allows for the film advance."
Best regards,
Thierry
-
Most view cameras do take sliding backs.
For the "pancake" cameras, i think the Arca Rm3D takes it's Rotaslide and the Silvestri Bicam also has an optional sliding back.
These are not integrated/fixed, but can be replaced by a simple mount for handheld shooting (or live-view)
Tom
-
Most view cameras do take sliding backs.
For the "pancake" cameras, i think the Arca Rm3D takes it's Rotaslide and the Silvestri Bicam also has an optional sliding back.
These are not integrated/fixed, but can be replaced by a simple mount for handheld shooting (or live-view)
Tom
I don't know the price for the Arca, respectively for the Silvestri including the "sliding back", but there is certainly a cost factor to be aware of: the arTec has the sliding back integrated and part of the camera price.
Best regards,
Thierry
-
Thierry,
Thank you for answering here, and my Sinar-related question privately.
You are a valuable resource.
Billy
-
Thierry,
Thank you for answering here, and my Sinar-related question privately.
You are a valuable resource.
Billy
Thank you Billy!
Much appreciated. Sinar has always been and still is my passion, as a product.
Best regards,
Thierry
-
The Alpa ST/SST were only prototypes and were never produced.
Today it's quite obvious that, when calibration differences of 1/100th of a millimeter are visible in image files, anything that moves makes a camere less precise. And the friction-type bearing that's used by some manufacturers (Sinar, Cambo, Arca-France) is not known to be resistant enough against abrasion to guarantee precision in extreme conditions and over a long time. Fcusing/framing on their tiny groundglasses is no fun anyway. Really precise working with this type of camera normally requires live view and a tethered laptop. I'd prefer something that doesn't move and stays that way.
-
The Alpa ST/SST were only prototypes and were never produced.
Today it's quite obvious that, when calibration differences of 1/100th of a millimeter are visible in image files, anything that moves makes a camere less precise. And the friction-type bearing that's used by some manufacturers (Sinar, Cambo, Arca-France) is not known to be resistant enough against abrasion to guarantee precision in extreme conditions and over a long time. Fcusing/framing on their tiny groundglasses is no fun anyway. Really precise working with this type of camera normally requires a live view and a tethered laptop. I'd prefer something that doesn't move and stays that way.
Schaubild,
Again, I don't know about others, but Sinar cameras are built and designed for digital accuracy (p3, arTec), including the "bearings". So far, and coming from field reports, I didn't hear from any customer complaining about long-time and extreme use conditions. I would even claim that it is the opposite, having seen Rainer working with his arTec like one works with a tool (a tool it should be) and not taking special care of it, this after more than 1 1/2 years use of it.
In addition, cameras should be serviced, from time to time, and the nice part of a Sinar camera is that they can always be re-adjusted to their initial and factory tolerances.
Best regards,
Thierry
-
I use a Linhof 679cs with a sliding back. It's a reasonable choice for urban based architectural work, but I wouldn't want to transport it anywhere I couldn't get to with a rolling case and a nearby car park.
The sliding back's sometimes a bit bulky for interiors, and by the time you add in an Arca bino viewer plus an eye level viewer (plus unclipping these for loupe focusing because neither is more than a compositional device) then you're looking at a serious price, slow working, and yet more volume to be transported.
One further thing, even in city streets I sometimes find the sliding back can "flutter" in a wind, I wouldn't like to hoist the "sliding back spinnaker" in a gale on a hill top!
Sliding backs are like most photographic kit, it may look gorgeous in the catalogue or dealer's window, but practical usage often tells a more sober story!
-
I'm more comfortable with fewer moving parts, no sliding back, no tilt/swing, on a digital set-up. Film is a bit more forgiving so maybe thats why they had the sliding option - just for film.
SWA & MAX
-
I was told Alpa concluded a sliding back couldn't be made to their tolerances. They are a company I wouldn't 2nd guess.
There are reports of Arca's RotaSlide being unsuitable (not rigid enough) for digital backs. There is a recent thread here from JdeV (?) who echoes that.
I had the ground glass when I started using the Alpa but quickly realized it was too small to be useful. At that time I would have wanted a sliding back had they made one, in hindsight I realize it's unnecessary.
-
In context of my next investment - P3 or Linhof M679CS- I always wondered how do they build a sliding back which meets digital back calibration tolerance in terms of focal plane distance, which for instance oscillates between +/- 20 microns for P45+. It's a mechanic device, it moves.. In some cases (like Kapture Group sliding back) there are 8 possible positions of the back, not to mention sliding function. If it operates flawlessly, it would justify the price tag around $2.5k. I wonder if it does though.
-
the artec works simply perfect i.m.o. and its my opinion too that together with the exposure batch correction of the white files its the only fast, transportable and reliable workflow out there in the market. but thats my personal opinion, although based on much experience now.
-
is no one out there using a cambo wide ds?
I'd imagine that using one in conjunction with a phase sliding back might work? or are the 'tolerances' not good enough for that in particular sliding back?
-Dan
-
Is there any sliding "Stitching" Back Adapter precise enough to be used with 39+ mp digital back? Any opinions on Kapture Group "QUADSTITCH" product?
-
the artec works simply perfect i.m.o. and its my opinion too that together with the exposure batch correction of the white files its the only fast, transportable and reliable workflow out there in the market. but thats my personal opinion, although based on much experience now.
Rainer - how does this workflow differ from others, say Leaf Capture with their batch gain file processing? Also, you have been using your ArTec for a while now - has it needed any service?
-
Rainer - how does this workflow differ from others, say Leaf Capture with their batch gain file processing? Also, you have been using your ArTec for a while now - has it needed any service?
no idea about the actual state of the gain converter, some reported a bug inj the newer version, but i havent tried it recently myself.
no service for the artec needed till now, and i hope that this will be like that, i cant need a mechanical camera which would need that often service, i mean e.g. in the first 4 - 5 years.
btw. just arrived today the new tse lenses from canon. first test with the 17 tse looks amazing , amazing. fantastic.
-
I'm aware of the "bug", although I can't say if it's a bug or not. The one user I'm aware of seems to want the software to do something it's not designed to do. Otherwise in my experience it works perfectly.
The 17 tse is a fantastic lens. Been using for a couple months now. No complaints and worth every penny.
-
Is there any sliding "Stitching" Back Adapter precise enough to be used with 39+ mp digital back? Any opinions on Kapture Group "QUADSTITCH" product?
I've stitched with the Linhof sliding carriage using the Phase One backs I've had (P25, P45+, P65+). "Precision" could be interpreted differently, with these backs the physical overlay was pixel perfect on the P25, virtually so with the P45, and needs only a minute crop with the P65+. In other words the mechanical precision is sufficient. But what I've found is the more practical issues are the image circle of the lenses I've been using (which have tended to shrink in three distinct steps alongside these three backs), and also the increasingly bloated file sizes that result.
The bottom line is that in practical terms I'm less tempted to stitch with the P65+ (because I just don't have a need for file sizes that big) and it's also becoming more difficult to execute a full sliding carriage stitch within the image circle, especially when accompanied by lens movements. Occasionally I find I'm using a sort of "semi-stitch" with the 40mm Rodenstock Digaron-W to get the result of a slightly wider lens, but nowadays it's the exception rather than the rule.
-
I'm aware of the "bug", although I can't say if it's a bug or not. The one user I'm aware of seems to want the software to do something it's not designed to do. Otherwise in my experience it works perfectly.
The 17 tse is a fantastic lens. Been using for a couple months now. No complaints and worth every penny.
same about the new 24 tse, which i just used for the first photograph. the fov is amazing if the 17tse is used stitched, i cant see much sharpness degradation as sometimes reported even in the outest zones of the image, if stopped down to f 11 - 16. probably i will use that canon system more often again, cause its so versatile. i although have a zoerk shift adapter with 35/45/55/75 pentax 645 lenses. looks as a nice travel setup if going to "stranger" regions, e.g. have to shoot in s.africa next year.
-
Agree on the new 24 tse, and I've been using the Canon much more than I expected since getting those 2 lenses this summer.
I'm on the fence about the Zoerk shift adapter though, I've been offered a system with a couple Pentax lenses for a reasonable amount, but am not sure how useful it will be. How do you find the chromatic aberration and distortion on the FA 35? For convenience reasons have stuck with the 45 tse which is good enough (sharp and ca is fixable), and the 90 tse is no slouch. A good 35 shift would be welcome - Canon? Any reason not to make one?
-
I've stitched with the Linhof sliding carriage using the Phase One backs I've had (P25, P45+, P65+). "Precision" could be interpreted differently, with these backs the physical overlay was pixel perfect on the P25, virtually so with the P45, and needs only a minute crop with the P65+. In other words the mechanical precision is sufficient. But what I've found is the more practical issues are the image circle of the lenses I've been using (which have tended to shrink in three distinct steps alongside these three backs), and also the increasingly bloated file sizes that result.
The bottom line is that in practical terms I'm less tempted to stitch with the P65+ (because I just don't have a need for file sizes that big) and it's also becoming more difficult to execute a full sliding carriage stitch within the image circle, especially when accompanied by lens movements. Occasionally I find I'm using a sort of "semi-stitch" with the 40mm Rodenstock Digaron-W to get the result of a slightly wider lens, but nowadays it's the exception rather than the rule.
Hi,
You got me wrong:) If, let's assume, shift for stitching is made on X and Y axis, I'm speaking about Z axis . The problem is that even the mounts you get with your digital back are off by some value, possibly by a value in the brand's tolerance, however that's not always the case. I've heard about P45+ backs which are off by even 150 microns. Obviously in critial situations like shooting wide open with wide angle lens, it produces blurry pictures and nasty color fringing. That's why I'm thinking how precise are the sliding 'stitching' adapters, since I would like to get one of these along with Linhof/P3. And this element adds another piece which can shift the back depth-wise. Lenses are imperfect, digital backs are imperfect..all of these sum up for a focal-plane-to-db-plane shift. You can spend a lot of money on equipment which doesn't take sharp images Yes, even some top of the line Schneider-Kreunzach (or Rodenstock digitar) are faulty in that matter.
-
RM3D and rotaslide... the groundglass and bino viewer for composition only... focus made via their incredicle helicoidal mount !
-
Agree on the new 24 tse, and I've been using the Canon much more than I expected since getting those 2 lenses this summer.
I'm on the fence about the Zoerk shift adapter though, I've been offered a system with a couple Pentax lenses for a reasonable amount, but am not sure how useful it will be. How do you find the chromatic aberration and distortion on the FA 35? For convenience reasons have stuck with the 45 tse which is good enough (sharp and ca is fixable), and the 90 tse is no slouch. A good 35 shift would be welcome - Canon? Any reason not to make one?
I also recently got the new 24 tse, night and day difference compared with the original. A 35 tse would be grand ( I had the FD version when I used film ). I currently use a 35mm Olympus/Sinaron for the Canon, which has 12mm rise/13mm fall & 10mm shift. It lacks a lock screw though, which means it could move by accident.
-
Agree on the new 24 tse, and I've been using the Canon much more than I expected since getting those 2 lenses this summer.
I'm on the fence about the Zoerk shift adapter though, I've been offered a system with a couple Pentax lenses for a reasonable amount, but am not sure how useful it will be. How do you find the chromatic aberration and distortion on the FA 35? For convenience reasons have stuck with the 45 tse which is good enough (sharp and ca is fixable), and the 90 tse is no slouch. A good 35 shift would be welcome - Canon? Any reason not to make one?
the pentax fa35 is very good in respect of ca , distortion and sharpness. as are the other pentax lenses which i own.
-
the pentax fa35 is very good in respect of ca , distortion and sharpness. as are the other pentax lenses which i own.
i agree. pentax fa35 is great. (see my websites). i use it with eos5d (1) and thinking about bying a eos5d II. would it be a big improvement (resolution)?
i am sometimes afraid of the clients question: "how large can we print it?"
-
i agree. pentax fa35 is great. (see my websites). i use it with eos5d (1) and thinking about bying a eos5d II. would it be a big improvement (resolution)?
i am sometimes afraid of the clients question: "how large can we print it?"
buy it.
at least 60x90cm with the 5d2.
-
i use it with eos5d (1) and thinking about bying a eos5d II. would it be a big improvement (resolution)?
the gain in resolution is worth it. but for me the best feature of the mark2 is the live focus ability on the much improved lcd. especially with manuel lenses this feature is very helpfull!
and yes - the 17mm shift is a jewel! together with the live focusing a joy to use for architecture and interiors.
stefan
-
Just wanted to clarify something. The Rm3d will accept the Rotaslide. It can be utilized for stitching if wanted. I also learned from Arca-Swiss that the Rm3d can be used as a front standard and is interchangeable with their other large format systems / accessories.
Below are images of the Rm3d as well as a press release and camera specifications.
Chris Lawery ()
__________________
Sales Manager, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 404.234.5195
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)[/font]
[attachment=17672:ARCA_SWI...Ddoppel2.jpg]
[attachment=17673:CP_Rm3d_ENG_2.jpg]
[attachment=17674:CP_Rm3d_ENG_3.jpg]