Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: photokat on July 08, 2003, 08:15:52 am
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Hi Chesty,
Have oyu taken your equipment to Canon yet?
If so how?
And how did you get on? Can they shed any light on this inconsitencey re. focussing?
Thanks
Kate
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I have the 10D and have noticed a very soft focus (I'm not sure it's back focusing) with a lot of action shots, especially when using my 70 - 200/f4 lens. I see the problem with that lens more so then with the 28-135 or the 16-35/f2.8. It's frustrating. I also have taken 30-40 shots from a sports center that my children go to with very large flourecent lights. Almost 98% of my shots taken in that center with the camera set on auto and a 550 attached were blurred. I took it back to my camera shop and all they could come up with was to try and not use all the focus points active. I since have been using the camera with the focus point set to the middle and haven't shot with the 200/f4 lens yet to see what the difference is. I'm certainly not a pro but I have owned a D30, D60 and a still own an EOS 3 and have not seen any of those cameras display this focus issue. I have tried Michael''s TV test and that seemed ok. The focus on the 10D is not working as it should - it's a simple conclusion based on many of the threads on this site. My only real question is what to do about it?
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If you have access to a web site, post them there and then send me the link. Also try sending each RAW in a different message.
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I have to say that Jonathon is 100% accurate with his conclusion of your images. I've been using the 10d for 100% of my commercial work in Australia since it was released here. Every now and then, yes I have an image that is not sharp, but and its a big but, I accept that is generally my own fault. The motion blur Jonathon correctly states as being evident in your shot could quite easily be produced by you moving the camera, whether your subject is still or not is a weak basis for your argument. The fact of the matter is that there is clealy motion blur - this is not a focus issue.
Yes the 550 has a setting on it to allow you to use the higher sync speeds. I suggest you do what few of us do, and that is read the manuals ???
For the record, Ive been shooting my digital work, intitially on the D30, then the D60 and now the 10D. I looked at the 1DS, but felt it was too heavy for me, and the cost difference was simply too great (interestingly a problem I saw after a just a couple of testing days, was the amount of dust on the chip). For me the 10D is a stunningly good camera. Maybe a focus issue does exist? Yes I would love a digital Canon based on the EOS3's focus system. Maybe that will come - please?
Personally I'm delighted with Canon and what they've produced.
William Long
www.longshots.com.au
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Hi, new to the board, so late into this thread.... ::
I noticed what appears to be another giveaway of motion blur in the shot of jiacone's son. Look at the bar on the left side of the helmet. You can "see through" the bar to the pad beneath, well enough that you can clearly see the edge of the pad. At first, I thought this might be reflected ambient light, but you can see the same thing on the right side of the helmet, too - and seeing clear edges of the pads is the telltale. Turn the helmet a little bit left or right, and you would be able to see the pad without the bar obstructing your view.
I've seen this a bit in my own work using slower shutter speeds combined w/ flash, w/ a moving subject. It can make for a cool effect when you do it intentionally
Dave
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After reading all the fuss about 10D focus, I conducted a test of my own. The results are accurate and confusing! I have posted the shots with write up
Michael if you are out there, please have a look.HERE. (http://www.artistphotography.com/focus/index.htm)
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I did a similar test posted below this one and got pretty bad results compared to manual focusing. So, I am taking all of my equipment into Canon to calibrate and repair. Hopefully at their expense!
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I will be taking my equipment back to the dealer I got it from and have them send it in to Canon.
I am asking them (Canon) to calibrate all of my equipment together (lenses to body) and send me the before and after results. I.E. the test results prior to calibration and the test results post calibration. Charts, numbers etc. I was an optical repair technician in the Marines and a Calibrator, so they won't slip too much by me.
Hope they comply. I will let you know the results whenI receive equipment back.
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Just for the record, I took all my test shots with the camera mounted on a tripod, in bright light, with fast shutter speeds (500-1000). In addition, I noted the same focus problems at f5.6, f8, and f11 (although at the smaller apertures, the focus issues were less noticeable due to the greater depth of field). All shots were taken at ISO 400 (since this is my most used speed), and in JPEG Fine. The images were compared in both Canon Fileviewer and Photoshop.
Chesty,
One interesting observation: In reviewing the other posts on this site regarding 10D focus issues, you noted in your post to PHOTOKAT on May 20 (day #4 with your new camera), that your focus appeared to be "spot on" and you were very happy. I looked back chronologically through my images and it appears that some of my earlier images were in better focus than more recent images. I dont know if this was a result of our initial awe and amazement with the new cameras, much more stringent and formal testing more recently, or if something (physically or program/setting-wise) changes with time/use. The reason I bring this up is that other posts have suggested that resetting the camera settings seems to improve focusing -- at least temporarily. Resetting did not seem to correct the focusing issues for me, though.
Again, I will look forward to hearing your results with great interest.
Good luck, Mike D.
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If you are taking action photos indoors, there is a very high probability you shots are motion blurred, which has nothing at all to do with focus. What shutter speed and focal length were you using?
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Yes I would understand that and except that. However I shot plenty of stills and the clearly show the same problem. I can email you a few samples if you would like
John
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Jonathan I tried emailing you some samples but recieved this message
Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients.
Subject: Canon 10D focus issues - examples
Sent: 7/13/2003 9:04 AM
The following recipient(s) could not be reached:
jonathan@visual-vacations.com on 7/13/2003 9:06 AM
The e-mail system was unable to deliver the message, but did not report a specific reason. Check the address and try again. If it still fails, contact your system administrator.
What is the max message size that your server can handle?
I have 4 shots taken in RAW - quite large.
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I winzipped them and that seemed to work. If you don't have winzip just go to www.winzip.com and download the free trial
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Jonathon, I appreciate the analysis. When that perticular shoot was taken as well as the others (pictures where my son is holding his award) the subject was not moving. In fact this peticular shot was when he was seated on the floor with very little movement. Take a look at the others where he is standing still posing. I was on the floor in a seated position fairly stable. Do you think it's camera shake?
One thing I am confused about is how do I use the fastest flash sync speed? Is that a setting on the 550?
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Jonathon, I appreciate the analysis. When that perticular shoot was taken as well as the others (pictures where my son is holding his award) the subject was not moving. In fact this peticular shot was when he was seated on the floor with very little movement. Take a look at the others where he is standing still posing. I was on the floor in a seated position fairly stable. Do you think it's camera shake?
One thing I am confused about is how do I use the fastest flash sync speed? Is that a setting on the 550?
I think you were holding the camera reasonably steady, the emblem on your son's shirt (not shown in the crop I posted) is quite sharp. Your son was turning his head as the shutter fired but his torso didn't move enough to blur his shirt.
Flash sync speed is limited by the camera, unless you put your flash in high speed sync mode. Check your flash manual to see how to do this. High speed sync lets you use faster shutter speeds with flash, but reduces the effective output of your flash. Use normal flash sync for shutter speeds up to your camera's maximum flash sync speed, if you need faster shutter than that, use high speed sync.
Use manual mode to control shutter speed when shooting with flash, leave your aperture wide open. 1/250 usually works pretty good.
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The other question is - you concluded that I was using the flash not as the primary source but as fill flash - How would I have set the camera up to make it the primary source and what led you to that conclusion?
Use manual mode, set a shutter speed of 1/200 or 1/250 and set aperture wide open. Adjust your exposure with flash exposure compensation. Also try using higher ISO settings, with the 10D you can get away with higher ISO than with most other cameras without excessive noise.
The key thing to note is that the image is a mix of blurred areas and sharp areas on the same focal plane. The image elements created by ambient light are motion blurred (your son's face, the bars of the mask) but the flash-created elements (the glints on the mask bars) are tack-sharp.
P.S. only 2 of the 3 photos came through, the first one was an empty ZIP file.
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I'm not sure what I can add. Canon continues to obfuscate and stonewall on this.
Michael
I too have a 10d and have to say, i have noticed the same focussinf problems.
Whilst i have put the problem down to user error or general lack of knowledge, i think i will be paying more attention to this matter.
I'm no expert in the field and certainly wouldn't like to knock Canon without first being absolutel sure, compared with my D3o i have a lot more spoilt shots.
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I'm not sure what I can add. Canon continues to obfuscate and stonewall on this.
Michael
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Dixon and Chesty,
PLEASE post the info and results that you receive from Canon in response to your 10D and lenses evaluation and hopeful repair. I have had similar results, and have done extensive testing. With both my 100-400 and 28-135 on my 10D (at multiple focal lengths on each lens), the area of sharpest focus appears to occur in front of the focus bracket. I tested this on both: 1) natural objects with depth and high detail (pine branches and flower parts); and 2) depth of field charts with only a single line present within or near the focus bracket (to avoid mis-focusing issues). I have been able to somewhat minimize this effect by focusing past the object first and then having the camera bring the focus into the object. This suggests that there is indeed a "depth of acceptable focus" built into the system, as I have read. However, even with this motion, the images are not acceptably focused (at least not to me).
I too am very frustrated because I can see that the sensor and lens combination are capable of fantastic sharpness and resolution -- Unfortunately this occurs at the areas in front of the object I am interested in!!!!! I have heard from other sources on the web that individuals have had their equipment repaired at Canon with good results. I wish both of you the best of luck. If you have success with your equipment, I intend to have mine evaluated also.
Thanks, Mike D.
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OK, send them to jonathan@visual-vacations.com.
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Sorry, Jim, your pictures are definitely motion blurred. Both were taken at 1/60 second, f/4. The camera is using the flash for fill, not as the primary light source. As a general rule of thumb, to get a reasonably sharp picture hand-held you need a shutter speed at least 1/f or faster. If you have moving subjects, you frequently need to double or triple that minimum. Frame 1480 was shot at 109mm, and 1473 as taken at 140mm. So your minimum shutter speed should be at least 1/200; 1/500 would be better. Use your fastest flash sync speed; let the flash be the primary light source or else crank up the ISO to 1600. There is nothing wrong with your camera; this is a definite case of user error.
(http://visual-vacations.com/Photography/Stupid10DTricks/CRW_1480.jpg)
Notice that the vertical bars of the face mask are much more blurred than the horizontal bars, and ALL of the flash highlights are razor sharp. The camera focus is perfect, the subject is turning his head fast enough to cause blurring at 1/60 exposure.
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Jonathon, thanks for the advise - One thing still going through my mindi is if your assumstions are correct why would the vertical bars be so much in focus - if his head was turing as I tripped the shutter wouldn't it effect the entire face mask on the helmet?? Just something to think about. Have you taken a look at the ourdoor shot of my older son? I am seeing a lot of this - which looks like a soft focus? sorry for the layman's terms.
The other question is - you concluded that I was using the flash not as the primary source but as fill flash - How would I have set the camera up to make it the primary source and what led you to that conclusion?
Appreciate your advice
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Essentially two exposures were made, one by the flash and one by the ambient light. The bars are leaving a partial shadow caused by the head moving during the exposures. The head turning horizontally during the exposure left a partial vertical shadow (two bars). You don't notice the horizontal shadows as much because that is the direction the head is turning.
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So the only photographies I made was with the 10D and found out that the 10D has a focusing problem, I know, nothing new. I did not manage to get a focused image with the bloddy AF from the 10D.
After throwing this so happily into the air yesterday, I made further tests and found out that the motif you are focusing brings the camera into a certain decision problem. It comes down to what Dixon Zalit found out here:
http://www.artistphotography.com/focus/index.htm (http://www.artistphotography.com/focus/index.htm)
So I will see how the camera behaves further before I speak to Canon here in Mexico.