Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: DesW on October 28, 2009, 03:07:47 am

Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: DesW on October 28, 2009, 03:07:47 am
[attachment=17552:C15.jpg]
Des
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Steve Gordon on October 28, 2009, 03:17:37 am
Oh Goodness me.!

Where did these come from??
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Colorwave on October 28, 2009, 04:33:42 am
Quote from: Steve Gordon
Where did these come from??
I just took a look on the Phase One website, and it's real alright.  A $99 upgrade for all existing C1 customers, it seems.  FWIW, the interface looks like not much has changed.  Odd that this was released without any fanfare or announcements to date.  I didn't get anything direct from Phase, get a RSS message from Capture Integration, or see a previous mention from anybody with a formal connection here on LL.  Did the Lightroom public beta cause them to shove it out the door sooner than dealers were expecting?  I'm sure the lessons from the early days of v4 taught them to not rush things too much, but the timing sure seems curious.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Henry Goh on October 28, 2009, 04:43:59 am
Updated both PC and MacBook Pro versions.
C1 5Pro is so much faster.
Focus viewer is very fast now.
Life is great.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: tho_mas on October 28, 2009, 07:10:04 am
Quote from: Colorwave
Odd that this was released without any fanfare or announcements to date.
They always announce updates/upgrades with a short delay.
Mabye because they fear that all users would download at the same time and the server would go down or so.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Steven Draper on October 28, 2009, 09:13:33 am
Perhaps someone may have the answer to this,

I shoot Nikon and use Nikon Capture NX2 as my primary RAW convertor as it enables Nikon lens correction and also uPoint technology with some other Nik Software plugins.

In Capture 5, are there any Nikon lens corrections available - and can the same ease of tweaking be carried out with other tools within Capture 5 if Nik software plugins are not an option

atb
Steven
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: michael on October 28, 2009, 09:24:59 am
The announcement was made today at 10am Central European time. That's 5am Eastern Daylight time in North America. The information on the release was embargoed on all media until then.

Since I don't usually set my alarm for 5am for such announcements I waited till 7am eastern, over coffee, to announce it, and most other sites did similarly.

So please folks, let's knock off the silly speculations. If not, the black helicopters will be after you.

Michael
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: jjlphoto on October 28, 2009, 10:01:38 am
Curious about the listed $99 upgrade fee for current Pro users. I am on CO Pro v3.xx and was supposed to be eligible for five free upgrades according to PhaseOne.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 28, 2009, 10:08:04 am
Quote from: Colorwave
I just took a look on the Phase One website, and it's real alright.  A $99 upgrade for all existing C1 customers, it seems.  FWIW, the interface looks like not much has changed.  Odd that this was released without any fanfare or announcements to date.  I didn't get anything direct from Phase, get a RSS message from Capture Integration, or see a previous mention from anybody with a formal connection here on LL.  Did the Lightroom public beta cause them to shove it out the door sooner than dealers were expecting?  I'm sure the lessons from the early days of v4 taught them to not rush things too much, but the timing sure seems curious.

if you actually read their official user forums (http://forum.phaseone.com) there were postings well in advance (before 10/28) that some dealers were showing C1V5 already (http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7618 , the thread started on Oct 13th) ..
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: collum on October 28, 2009, 10:22:18 am
Quote from: jjlphoto
Curious about the listed $99 upgrade fee for current Pro users. I am on CO Pro v3.xx and was supposed to be eligible for five free upgrades according to PhaseOne.

I am a very early adopter, and my license stopped working part way thru version 4. I was told by a support person that minor releases also counted towards the 5 free upgrades (3.7, 4.0, 4.1, etc).
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Jack Flesher on October 28, 2009, 11:55:56 am
I've been using the betas -- my simple .02 comment is to get v5 ASAP
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: selsoe on October 28, 2009, 01:15:49 pm
Quote from: collum
I am a very early adopter, and my license stopped working part way thru version 4. I was told by a support person that minor releases also counted towards the 5 free upgrades (3.7, 4.0, 4.1, etc).

Not true. Only 4.5 counted as an upgrade, license wise for the Pro.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Jack Flesher on October 28, 2009, 01:29:50 pm
Here is the entire deactivation, download and reactivation cycle I had to go through to get it up and running on my Mac -- post #8 in this thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11309 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11309)

Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: nik on October 28, 2009, 08:22:01 pm
I've been using it today with a tethered DSLR, it's a pity that LiveView (a.k.a Live Preview in C1 5) and Camera Controls (aperture, shutter speed etc) only work with the Phase backs and certain MF cameras (see the manual for details). No DSLRs. Otherwise it seems fast and stable, and I'm only on a 2007 MacBookPro.

-N
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: hilljf on October 28, 2009, 10:23:26 pm
I had upgrades left on my license and they worked as expected.  No need to pay additional money.  Phaseone clearly stands by their licensing promises.  The upgrade looks nice and seems to run on Windows 7 just great.

John
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: thompsonkirk on October 28, 2009, 11:30:30 pm
If I've read the pricing correctly, Michael left out an important detail - the Plain-Jane non-Pro version is only $129?

Those of us who got the free version with M8 Leicas apparently have to buy this, rather than upgrade.

Kirk
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: DesW on October 29, 2009, 01:17:44 am
[attachment=17571:C1.jpg]

Well Phase marketing should hang their heads in shame-- can anyone decipher the abysmal  pics that accompany the 5 User Guide?

I'll forgive the spelling mistakes--as Eng not the first language--but those thumbnails-terrible -no excuse!

They are frankly a disgrace and an insult to our intelligence about 1 in 10 have any degree of legibility at any enlargement.

Heaven forbid they cannot afford a Web/PDF writer without rasterizing the H/tones.

Cannot post on Phase Forum--it's down

Blah,

DesW

If anyone can read this--you're a better man than I Gunga Din!


Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Wayne Fox on October 29, 2009, 02:31:21 am
Quote from: Jack Flesher
Here is the entire deactivation, download and reactivation cycle I had to go through to get it up and running on my Mac -- post #8 in this thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11309 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11309)



mmm, I just dragged it to my Application folder, double clicked it and launched it.  Just running it in test mode, maybe I'll have all of those problems when I actually try to activate it.

Guess I'm a little underwhelmed, some nice and helpful additions, but some of them are a version late anyway.  Not sure it really merits a full version upgrade (and price), but then I don't use it like many of you - I'm normally just doing one or two conversions per shoot of the keepers.  Maybe it added things that helped with workflow.

personally I wish it would just put my converted file right next to my raw file ... I don't like the whole session thing for my workflow.

Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Colorwave on October 29, 2009, 03:40:07 am
It crashed half a dozen times shortly after launch for me, as it was grinding away, saying it was converting a session from v4 to 5.  I repaired permissions and tried again.  It launched and finally showed a few thumbnails, then crashed once more.  It now crashes upon launch for me.  I followed Jack's advice and trashed everything I could find from version 4 before installing.  I see that a number of people seem to be faring alright, but it is not working for me on a MacBook Pro running 10.5.8.

Edit:  I repaired permissions again and it has stopped crashing on launch, but now it says that there was an error connecting with the activation server.  It shows that it is activated, but my activation history has disappeared.  I don't know if my earlier problems might have been related to this or not, but I'm thinking that they may be having server problems beyond just the user forums at PO.  The initial activation connection seemed to work fine, but that was an hour ago.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: K.C. on October 29, 2009, 04:03:55 am
I downloaded the update and installed it on a 13" Mac Book Pro running 10.5.8, just replaced the prior version by drag and drop. Runs fast and stable for me, has all day.

Does a very nice job with the SONY A850 raw files. My 7D arrives tomorrow and it'll support that as well.

I'm a mere mortal in the grander scheme of things, not a blog or a site to hang my pixels on and they told me the new version would be out this month when I asked in September.

For the money it's a steal.It's not going to be everyone's perfect child but then nothing ever will be.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: K.C. on October 29, 2009, 04:07:12 am
Quote from: Colorwave
I don't know if my earlier problems might have been related to this or not, but I'm thinking that they may be having server problems beyond just the user forums at PO.  The initial activation connection seemed to work fine, but that was an hour ago.

I'd bet their servers are simply overwhelmed.

Mine activated without issue, but there was a lag in the server response. Just a sign of too much traffic on it.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: K.C. on October 29, 2009, 04:24:29 am
Quote from: Wayne Fox
personally I wish it would just put my converted file right next to my raw file ... I don't like the whole session thing for my workflow.

Select an image that you have not adjusted from the browser. Go to the Image menu and create a 'New Variant.' Select both from the Browser and click on Multi View. Now close the browser.Work on one copy of the image while leaving the other one alone.


Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: tho_mas on October 29, 2009, 05:11:03 am
Quote from: Wayne Fox
personally I wish it would just put my converted file right next to my raw file ... I don't like the whole session thing for my workflow.
so the processed TIF next to the RAW file?
If so set the capture folder as output folder and keep the file name when processing. The TIFs then show up in the same folder and if you sort by name they will be next to the respective RAW file. In this case I would at least color tag the RAWs so that you can tell them from the TIFs easier.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: K.C. on October 29, 2009, 05:37:53 am
Quote from: tho_mas
so the processed TIF next to the RAW file?
If so set the capture folder as output folder and keep the file name when processing. The TIFs then show up in the same folder and if you sort by name they will be next to the respective RAW file. In this case I would at least color tag the RAWs so that you can tell them from the TIFs easier.


Yes you can process the image and then bring it back in. In fact you could process several variations, keep your original and them compare them in multi view.

You can also select the original in the browser and then hit Enter. That locks it the viewer. Now scroll through the variations to bring each one side by side with your original.

There's lot of power and functionality in C1 if you take the time to learn it.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 29, 2009, 10:23:56 am
Question: I used to be able to define a default setting for the sharpening and noise reduction, but this seems not to be possible to save default with version 5.0. The function is there, but it doesn't seem to be working...

Bug or user error?

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Jack Flesher on October 29, 2009, 10:38:30 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Question: I used to be able to define a default setting for the sharpening and noise reduction, but this seems not to be possible to save default with version 5.0. The function is there, but it doesn't seem to be working...

Bug or user error?

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Regards,
Bernard

You could set up a Style with all of your desired normal settings -- that allows you to apply them all at once to any selected image.  

That said, the new defaults do seem to be sticking on both my machines.  Note however that if you opened that image before with a different setting or in a previous version of C1, the previous setting will stick; it needs to be a "freshly" opened image to get the new default.  You can reset those old defaults by nuking the Capture One side-car folder inside the folder with the images in question and then re-open the image in C1.

Cheers,
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 29, 2009, 10:46:56 am
Quote from: Jack Flesher
You could set up a Style with all of your desired normal settings -- that allows you to apply them all at once to any selected image.  

That said, the new defaults do seem to be sticking on both my machines.  Note however that if you opened that image before with a different setting or in a previous version of C1, the previous setting will stick; it needs to be a "freshly" opened image to get the new default.  You can reset those old defaults by nuking the Capture One side-car folder inside the folder with the images in question and then re-open the image in C1.

Cheers,

Thanks Jack, that's probably it.

Styles are indeed a valid approach, but is there a way to automatically apply a given style to all the images as they are being imported?

Thank you.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: selsoe on October 29, 2009, 10:58:16 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Thanks Jack, that's probably it.

Styles are indeed a valid approach, but is there a way to automatically apply a given style to all the images as they are being imported?

No, that is only possible when tethering.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Wayne Fox on October 29, 2009, 02:06:24 pm
Quote from: K.C.
Select an image that you have not adjusted from the browser. Go to the Image menu and create a 'New Variant.' Select both from the Browser and click on Multi View. Now close the browser.Work on one copy of the image while leaving the other one alone.

Not what I meant ...when I am ready to render the RAW file to a tiff I just want it to render next to the original file, not bother with the whole output folder thing.  I use variants like this frequently.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Colorwave on October 29, 2009, 03:13:38 pm
Quote from: Wayne Fox
Not what I meant ...when I am ready to render the RAW file to a tiff I just want it to render next to the original file, not bother with the whole output folder thing.  I use variants like this frequently.
Since you can render the file to any folder you specify, why not just specify the original folder from your source file?
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: tho_mas on October 29, 2009, 03:18:55 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Question: I used to be able to define a default setting for the sharpening and noise reduction, but this seems not to be possible to save default with version 5.0. The function is there, but it doesn't seem to be working...
Bug or user error?
it works... but only for the next session(s). Within the same session you can't set a new default.
Too, within a "style" the default is always what is safed as settings in the respective style.


Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 29, 2009, 07:03:18 pm
Quote from: selsoe
No, that is only possible when tethering.

Thanks.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 29, 2009, 07:04:46 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
it works... but only for the next session(s). Within the same session you can't set a new default.
Too, within a "style" the default is always what is safed as settings in the respective style.

Thanks a lot.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Jack Flesher on October 29, 2009, 09:06:39 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Styles are indeed a valid approach, but is there a way to automatically apply a given style to all the images as they are being imported?

Has been answered, but ------  if we all keep our fingers crossed, we may see this functionality on importing added in the next update or two .   In the meantime, it is easy to simply select all images in the folder right after the import and apply a saved style to them all -- just takes a few seconds to render the new previews.  

Cheers,
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Bill Caulfeild-Browne on October 29, 2009, 10:15:35 pm
Quote from: K.C.
I downloaded the update and installed it on a 13" Mac Book Pro running 10.5.8, just replaced the prior version by drag and drop. Runs fast and stable for me, has all day.

Does a very nice job with the SONY A850 raw files. My 7D arrives tomorrow and it'll support that as well.

I'm a mere mortal in the grander scheme of things, not a blog or a site to hang my pixels on and they told me the new version would be out this month when I asked in September.

For the money it's a steal.It's not going to be everyone's perfect child but then nothing ever will be.

I've been running C1 5 for a couple of days on  MacBook Pro and Pro desktop. No problems yet, I like it!
Bill
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 30, 2009, 07:25:35 pm
Quote from: Wayne Fox
Not what I meant ...when I am ready to render the RAW file to a tiff I just want it to render next to the original file, not bother with the whole output folder thing.  I use variants like this frequently.

You can do this.

In your process recipe select "Advanced - Root Folder - Image Folder" and the outputted image will always go to the same folder as the raw.

Doug Peterson  ()
__________________
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Phase One, Leaf, Leica, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 30, 2009, 07:32:44 pm
Quote from: Colorwave
I just took a look on the Phase One website, and it's real alright.  A $99 upgrade for all existing C1 customers, it seems.  FWIW, the interface looks like not much has changed.  Odd that this was released without any fanfare or announcements to date.  I didn't get anything direct from Phase, get a RSS message from Capture Integration, or see a previous mention from anybody with a formal connection here on LL.  Did the Lightroom public beta cause them to shove it out the door sooner than dealers were expecting?  I'm sure the lessons from the early days of v4 taught them to not rush things too much, but the timing sure seems curious.

Late October was the slated release timeframe as far back as early September.

Capture Integration failed you on the RSS feed :-). I'll be posting a note in a few minutes.

Quote from: jjlphoto
Curious about the listed $99 upgrade fee for current Pro users. I am on CO Pro v3.xx and was supposed to be eligible for five free upgrades according to PhaseOne.

All 3 Pro keys (to the best of my knowledge) were sold with TWO free upgrades. Version 4.5 and Version 5 would be those two free upgrades. Any "update" (e.g. 3.7.6 --? 3.7.7 or 4.5.3 --> 4.6.0) were not counted. Unlike most companies you can log onto phaseone.com and see (my account > license management) exactly what licenses you've registered and what upgrade privileges go with them.


Quote from: selsoe
Not true. Only 4.5 counted as an upgrade, license wise for the Pro.

Correct.

Doug Peterson  ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Leica, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 04, 2009, 10:51:15 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
You can do this.

In your process recipe select "Advanced - Root Folder - Image Folder" and the outputted image will always go to the same folder as the raw.

Doug Peterson  ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Leica, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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PERFECT!  Many thanks.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: craigwashburn on November 10, 2009, 01:44:16 pm
My biggest problem of the moment is that previews at the Fit zoom level are not sharp.  4.x looks fine, but my first reaction to loading images into 5 is that previews are not sharp.  Looks fine at 25% though... except I can't see the whole image on my display.  

Also - does anyone know how to use the dust removal tool in batch?  Its operation is very non-intuitive and manual is missing one of the pages.
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: tho_mas on November 10, 2009, 02:22:01 pm
Quote from: craigwashburn
My biggest problem of the moment is that previews at the Fit zoom level are not sharp.
C1 V4 also rendered full resolution up from 25%... below it has always been a bit washy.
In V5 you can set the preview size in the preferences:
[attachment=17800:prefs.jpg]

if you have a large monitor and don't use the proof margin you have to set a higher value... according to the pixel size "to fit" utilizes.
The smaller the preview cache size, the faster, the bigger, the slower. The balance quality vs. speed is up to you.

Quote from: craigwashburn
does anyone know how to use the dust removal tool in batch?
as all the tools: copy & apply the adjustment to the selected images.



Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: craigwashburn on November 10, 2009, 03:10:32 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
C1 V4 also rendered full resolution up from 25%... below it has always been a bit washy.
In V5 you can set the preview size in the preferences:
[attachment=17800:prefs.jpg]

if you have a large monitor and don't use the proof margin you have to set a higher value... according to the pixel size "to fit" utilizes.
The smaller the preview cache size, the faster, the bigger, the slower. The balance quality vs. speed is up to you.

I messed with this slider and there is no change in preview sharpness or size that I can tell.

Quote
as all the tools: copy & apply the adjustment to the selected images.

Except...it doesn't work    And these are simple dust spots - on a plain white background, in the same place each time.   When working with an individual image, clicking on the dust spot puts the circle around it, and does nothing.  But, if I leave the image, and come back to it, sometimes the spot will be gone.  And sometimes it won't.  Despite always being on a white background.

Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: craigwashburn on November 10, 2009, 03:33:53 pm
Quote from: craigwashburn
I messed with this slider and there is no change in preview sharpness or size that I can tell.

Interesting, I managed to garner a slight improvement in quality by reducing the preview size from the default of 1000 to 600.  For grins, I increased it to 2200 as well - this resulted in a blurry mess of a preview, even at 25%.  

My guess is that the algorithm being used to scale down the preview to the display is the source of the blurriness.

P1 support is telling me they had complaints about the Fit sharpness.  But I remember when 4 was released the same issues of lack of preview sharpness at Fit were raised....  
Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 10, 2009, 10:42:48 pm
Quote from: craigwashburn
Interesting, I managed to garner a slight improvement in quality by reducing the preview size from the default of 1000 to 600.  For grins, I increased it to 2200 as well - this resulted in a blurry mess of a preview, even at 25%.  

My guess is that the algorithm being used to scale down the preview to the display is the source of the blurriness.

P1 support is telling me they had complaints about the Fit sharpness.  But I remember when 4 was released the same issues of lack of preview sharpness at Fit were raised....

The Preview size only changes on NEW incoming images. Anything which already has a preview will not be effected unless you specifically went into the Capture One Settings folder where that raw file resides and deleted the preview files.

Doug Peterson  ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Title: Phase C1Pro5 any Guinea Pigs yet?
Post by: craigwashburn on November 11, 2009, 02:15:13 am
Quote from: dougpetersonci
The Preview size only changes on NEW incoming images. Anything which already has a preview will not be effected unless you specifically went into the Capture One Settings folder where that raw file resides and deleted the preview files.

Doug Peterson  ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)

Hi Doug, I can verify this is not the case.  Increase your preview size to very large (beyond your monitor's width or height), and then switch to another image in your session.  The preview will re-generate in the viewer.

You do have to switch images though for this to occur.