Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: mark_au on October 23, 2009, 03:57:28 am
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Got this link from other forum
http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leic...iew_samples.htm (http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leica_s2_review_samples.htm)
Mark
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Got this link from other forum
http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leic...iew_samples.htm (http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leica_s2_review_samples.htm)
Mark
Noise starts after iso 320 & that is the challenge with CCD chips.
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Noise starts after iso 320 & that is the challenge with CCD chips.
I just don't understand why these companies keep using CCD's? I guess that will be the next step in MF, whoever does it with CMOS is going to win this game.
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It's a "Nullserie"-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO. The M9 is usable up to 1000-1250ASA, the S2 will behave similar.
Full-frame CCDs are crucial for max. IQ
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It's a "Nullserie"-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO. The M9 is usable up to 1000-1250ASA, the S2 will behave similar.
EXIF shows capture date is two days ago.
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I agree with Georg. This ISO test was perhaps a little premature. We'll have to wait and see what happens when the latest firmware is being used in this kind of test.
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EXIF shows capture date is two days ago.
Ah, sorry, didn't notice that. The images were post-processed with Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop CS4. Perhaps C1 or Lightroom might do a better higher ISO conversion.
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Ah, sorry, didn't notice that. The images were post-processed with Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop CS4. Perhaps C1 or Lightroom might do a better higher ISO conversion.
Threadjack: It was my understanding that ACR and Lightroom use the same raw processing engine. Is this not correct? (C1 of course is a different thing entirely not coming from Adobe.)
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Ah, sorry, didn't notice that.
It might be a current firmware... but maybe not. We simply don't know.
As to ACR vs. LR it's the same engine. I don't know if LR provides smarter NR than ACR. The settings in the two full rez JPGs are set to zero for LumNR and ColNR.
The red chanel is clipped intensely... normal problem with ACR/LR...
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It might be a current firmware... but maybe not. We simply don't know.
As to ACR vs. LR it's the same engine. I don't know if LR provides smarter NR than ACR. The settings in the two full rez JPGs are set to zero for LumNR and ColNR.
The red chanel is clipped intensely... normal problem with ACR/LR...
Well what you see there is what you get. Perhaps a little better. However there won't be a C1 conversion... there won't be C1 for any S2 owners. They can only hope for a very good Lightroom 3 support around spring next year until then they are stuck with L2 and that quality. Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did.
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Christopher,
With all my respect, I do not agree here: this image at ISO 640 is NOT good, if you meant to say that.
I have published a test taken by myself with the Sinarback eMotion 75 LV 1 1/2 years ago, shot at ISO 800. The difference is amazing, in respect to noise and general image quality, BUT also in respect of the light conditions (DR):
the file info taken at ISO 320 with the S2 shows that it was taken at f 13 at a 1/125th, which would mean that the ISO 640 image (provided that all being equal) was taken at f 13 / 1/250th, respectively about f 16 / 1/250th at ISO 800: that is a huge light difference of what I had shown and posted 1 1/2 years ago (see link below) in an image taken at f 5.6 / 1/40th at ISO 800, resp. f 16 / 1/10th at ISO 800). There is about 4 2/3 f-stop difference here, in terms of quantity of light available when the images were taken (4 2/3 less light for the image taken with the e75 33 MPx back).
here:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...ghlight=iso+800 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683&highlight=iso+800)
Therefore I am not really impressed with the shown quality of these images taken with flash light, without wishing to speculate on the firmware of this S2 camera: the image quality at ISO 640, respectively even at ISO 320, is simply not good, in respect to noise.
Best regards,
Thierry
Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did.
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It's the same generation that was used by Mr. Reichmann and Mr. Farkas and they weren't allowed to go beyond ISO160.
ISO640 in this sample looks horrible, it's propably just ISO160 +2EV to simulate ISO640 due to the early firmware/hardware!? We should not expect any miracles, it's a 6µm-CCD-system just with microlenses and therefore higher sensitivity (80-1250 instead of 50-800) and ISO800 is quite usable (and definitely not worse than 1600ASA with any CMOS-camera) with those backs (P40+/P65+/H3D-50).
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The S2 firmware is now final. There are cameras available for use at a studio in New York this week, and people are invited to come in, bring a CF card, take shots, and then take these home.
My recommendation is to use Adobe's LR3 Beta, which has a completely different processing engine that CR or Lr2.
Let's not confuse things with premature firmware and non-optimum processing.
I spoke with Leica at the NY show yesterday. Their biggest concern is being able to build enough of them, and that's why they have put the brakes on, so that they can reengineer their production line, and thus the delay of a couple of months.
Having seen the way that Leica builds things I can appreciate this issue, and though I'm as eager to test out a production S2 system as anyone, I'm waiting patiently. Building an entirely new camera and lens system from scratch is an incredible undertaking, and then also designing and building the manufacturing capability (this is not an OEM venture) is also a huge job.
Michael
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The S2 firmware is now final. There are cameras available for use at a studio in New York this week, and people are invited to come in, bring a CF card, take shots, and then take these home.
Shouldn't that mean the NDA's have expired? One way or another we should see lots more samples posted soon.
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My recommendation is to use Adobe's LR3 Beta, which has a completely different processing engine that CR or Lr2.
Let's not confuse things with premature firmware and non-optimum processing.
With all due respect, does anyone here think that, even if it's not final firmware, that the final usable ASA is going to change much, beyond these samples? In the end, aren't we talking about a $33,000 camera that will have a max usable ASA of probably 400 or 640?
I just wonder if we're bumping up against the end, with CCD, in terms of what will sell. This week, we're seeing the intro of the 1D4 Canon, with a marketed ASA of 102,000 (one hundred and two thousand). Say that out loud: One hundred and two thousand. Yes, it'll be noisy as hell, but can't you just imagine that, soon, that CMOS will render a clean ASA of probably 6400?
It just seems that CMOS keeps expanding, whereas CCD has been stuck in the mud for years.
I think what we're seeing here is is the split between guys that are willing to drag a tripod with them, EVERYwhere they go, versus guys that simply want to go out and shoot pictures, on foot, unencumbered. Carbon fiber or not, it's still dragging around a tripod. All you Lab Coat Guys, who want to examine noise at 200%, I just hope you're willing to carry a tripod with your precious CCD cameras.
I want to stick with MF as much as the next guy, but I'm seeing continued massive advances with Canon and Nikon, and yet, MF seems stuck with tiny, coarse LCDs, (never improved on), and CCDs that seem limited to ASA 400. And let's not even mention the whole video thing...
Imagine what that S2 is going to be worth, second-hand, in about two years, when technology keeps marching along, and the 1ds4 hits the streets. Who's willing to take a bath on that S2? (But I guess with their target market, we're talking about guys that could care less about taking a bath).
I'm just sitting there, shaking my head.
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I'm just sitting there, shaking my head.
Instead of "shaking your head", what about this "spinning animated GW"?
Thierry
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I saw the S2 yesterday in the studio, and took test shots, though only at base ISO (160).
some quick thoughts:
pros:
- the 70mm standard lens is AMAZING - a very special piece of optics. in a completely different class to other MF standards, (maybe with the exception of the Zeiss 80mm for Sinar M) It's so good it shames every other camera/lens maker out there.
- camera body is very nice to handle. good size, good ergonomics.
- shutter is quiet, quieter than 1 series Canons or much quieter than other MF cameras. the weather proofing probably helps seal noise too
- AF worked well, not brilliantly, but well enough in good light. but is just single point.
cons:
- the lens is big, way bigger than it needs be, as it's built to take a central shutter, regardless of whether you want one or not. (plus is weather sealed plus has 8 elements). This rather defeats the compact MF nature of the design, and for every promo image of how small the S2 body is compared to a dSLR, reviewers need to show one of how huge the standard is compared to other MF standards.
- the tether firmware kept crashing. yes its just beta at present, but as we are 12 weeks from launch, its not encouraging.
- Moire was clearly present in some images (same as it would be with any other MF digital, just dont believe Leica have magically solved Moire - they haven't)
- no C1 conversions. Just Lightroom, which is not the same quality, imho. you may prefer Lightroom though.
- single point AF
I think this camera is going to be a hit... although... ~30Mp ff Canons are coming, probably a few months after the S2 launches, and they will be 5+fps, live view, bullet proof, 50 point AF with tracking and video, huge range of lenses that go to f1.2, superb high ISO performance. Oh, and are 1/4 the price.
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This rather defeats the compact MF nature of the design, and for every promo image of how small the S2 body is compared to a dSLR, reviewers need to show one of how huge the standard is compared to other MF standards.
They should be legally required to also design The Leica S2 Tripod as well, and they should be required to show the tripod whenever they show the camera. (Imagine the price tag of a carbon fiber Leica tripod). (And imagine the look on Hans'/Lars' face when they realize they'd got to carry a tripod, and risk getting a wrinkle in the shoulder area of that starched shirt. But at least the sweater tied around their shoulders will comfort the weight of the tripod).
Because, once you're set free with the 5D2, with the ability to shoot in Available Darkness, it's really really hard to go back to ASA 160.
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Because, once you're set free with the 5D2, with the ability to shoot in Available Darkness, it's really really hard to go back to ASA 160.
it really is a good camera for handheld - much more than other MF's.
would have like the standard to be f2.0 rather than f2.5, but still, this is one MF camera that does not need a tripod in normal daylight light.
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Try lightroom 3 beta, you will be amazed how usable high iso shots become from ccd sensors. I am now going back through a whole series of photos taken with the Leica M8 on iso 2500 which I thought were not upto print quality. Lightroom 3 Beta has radically changed my position towards these images. Already the bar is raised very high with this Beta release , let's see what is going to happen when Lightroom 3 final comes out, I expect a small revolution in RAW processing.
Jochem
They should be legally required to also design The Leica S2 Tripod as well, and they should be required to show the tripod whenever they show the camera. (Imagine the price tag of a carbon fiber Leica tripod).
Because, once you're set free with the 5D2, with the ability to shoot in Available Darkness, it's really really hard to go back to ASA 160.
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"I think this camera is going to be a hit... although... ~30Mp ff Canons are coming, probably a few months after the S2 launches, and they will be 5+fps, live view, bullet proof, 50 point AF with tracking and video, huge range of lenses that go to f1.2, superb high ISO performance. Oh, and are 1/4 the price."
I think the cropped 1dMkIV is nearly perfect as a tool for fast press-work and sports-photography, but despite all the bells and whistles the "full-frame-DSLRs" suffer some serious problems regarding IQ - even future 30+MP-DSLRs won't resolve much detail in reality beyond 15-20MP (maybe with a 2/135 stopped down in a studio), they can have as many megapixels as they want. The same with all the great zooms, f1.2-lenses, video - they're like a race-car for Le Mans with a huge trunk, satellite-radio and GPS-navigation - fun and essential for some but not for a race in Le Mans... The S2 is not threat to all the fast press-cameras, but they're serious for those who need highest IQ and offers some fundamental advantages over current offerings.
I would be surprised if ISO1250 isn't as good as with the M9 (which is better than any 3200ASA-IQ available).
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Ah, sorry, didn't notice that. The images were post-processed with Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop CS4. Perhaps C1 or Lightroom might do a better higher ISO conversion.
there is a unacceptable noise at base iso, check the darker parts of the model's hair.
peter
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Looking at the samples at screen res, which is where most pro work ends up, these could have been shot with a D200.
I understand the "advanced amateur" market.
I could see using it for handheld fashion, with lights at 160.
I can see pro landscape guys humping one or two of these through the bush.
BUT, I don't see many commercial photogs buying this camera. It doesn't fill a need. Or am I wrong? It doesn't replace two systems. Its not like you could buy an S2 system and dump your MFDB and DSLR. It could replace a back, but a larger sensor is the draw of the newer backs, and there is no cost savings with the S2, so why buy it over a P65? Why replace an Aptus 75 or 54s? The lenses? Commercial guys don't generally make prints or large prints. I have a friend who shoots BIG commercial jobs with a D2x. Everything is so composited now, multiple images, multiple locations, multiple formats, mixed with CGI. Its just overkill and unecessary for commercial work. I know I know, if you are a Leicaphile (I am) and a DSM IV retentive type, you have to have the best or you can't sleep at night knowing that those Leica lenses are out there and you can't use them. Maybe those guys, who seem to inhabit the forums, will spring for it if they have the coin. Most commercial guys won't because it doesn't make sense.
I know Leica brings out the beast in people, like the Shia/Sunni split. I'm not attacking Leica, and I'm not a fan boy. I do love my M8, M6, M4P, and eventually an M9. I'm not trolling. So I'll end with a question that is not meant as some sort of AgitProp:
Of the Adverstising Photographers/Fashion Photographers on this board, who plans to WRITE THE CHECK for this system, not just rent it, but WRITE THE CHECK? And why? I don't mean people who think its cool (I do), but I mean WRITE THE CHECK? Assuming a system with backup is about $65k.
Thanks!
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I've said it before, but I'll say it again. No, not buying it and I don't believe Leica's bs reason for delaying the release unless they had planned on making only 10 cameras initially and they got a last minute order from another surgeon and Seal had mentioned he'd like 4. I think this will be a massive failure commercially.
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It doesn't fill a need. Or am I wrong? It doesn't replace two systems. Its not like you could buy an S2 system and dump your MFDB and DSLR. It could replace a back, but a larger sensor is the draw of the newer backs, and there is no cost savings with the S2, so why buy it over a P65?
You would think, with its whole "portability" thing, they'd be aiming at the Canon/Nikon market, but as you say, with no high ASA possibilities, you've still got to keep a Canon or Nikon for low light. I ask again, "Who designs a supposedly portable camera from the ground up, and then sticks a CCD in it, when they know full well the ASA limitations?"
And who's going to buy an expensive thing like that to replace MF? What happens when it's out of date in two years? At least with my H2 and P45+ approach, i've still got my H2 bodies and lenses intact, and I just upgrade to a p65+, or competing large back, if the need occurred (which it won't). Even the Hasselblad H3 and above seems frought with take-a-bath risks, when their one-in-all goes out of date.
That S2 Leica reminds me of those fancy Swiss Army knives that have scissors, a loupe, a vibrator, and an espresso maker all built it, but no one piece of it is very competent. Jack of all trades; master of none.
I just wish Phase would stick a SwissArmy into Leaf, and get back to work making a 22MP, Fullish-Frame version of the P21+, with an iPhone LCD. That P21+ is about the best back they ever made for commercial work.
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I've said it before, but I'll say it again. No, not buying it and I don't believe Leica's bs reason for delaying the release unless they had planned on making only 10 cameras initially and they got a last minute order from another surgeon and Seal had mentioned he'd like 4. I think this will be a massive failure commercially.
Few photographers buy MF for view camera compatibility, but what is MF now? ¿anything bigger than 24 * 36mm?
I think the S2 is destined to be a rare collector's item for Leica enthusiasts, which will appeal mainly to wealthy amateurs.
How much have Leica put into this, and can they afford a commercial failure?
I hope the M9 & Dlux4 will keep the company afloat.
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That S2 Leica reminds me of those fancy Swiss Army knives that have scissors, a loupe, a vibrator, and an espresso maker all built it, but no one piece of it is very competent. Jack of all trades; master of none.
You obviously have a different model of knife to me, but mine is fantastic. I've sawn thick branches with the saw, cut nails, and vegetation with the scissors, used the knife to trim wild mushrooms, used the tweezers to handle small items, and so on. And far cheaper than those over priced hyped Leatherman style gadgets. End of rant. You may continue with the topic under discussion.
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That S2 Leica reminds me of those fancy Swiss Army knives that have scissors, a loupe, a vibrator, and an espresso maker all built it, but no one piece of it is very competent. Jack of all trades; master of none.
Although I do agree with the rest of your post, this I absolutely disagree: You haven't probably owned an authentic one.
Thierry
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You obviously have a different model of knife to me, but mine is fantastic. I've sawn thick branches with the saw, cut nails, and vegetation with the scissors, used the knife to trim wild mushrooms, used the tweezers to handle small items, and so on. And far cheaper than those over priced hyped Leatherman style gadgets. End of rant. You may continue with the topic under discussion.
Absolutely, Slough, and I am at the source, since Vercingetorix is located in my town.
Thierry
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Although I do agree with the rest of your post, this I absolutely disagree: You haven't probably owned an authentic one.
Lighten up, it's a joke.
Signed,
Mr. Leatherman
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I was not that serious either!
signed,
Mr. Vercingetorix
Lighten up, it's a joke.
Signed,
Mr. Leatherman
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I've said it before, but I'll say it again. No, not buying it and I don't believe Leica's bs reason for delaying the release unless they had planned on making only 10 cameras initially and they got a last minute order from another surgeon and Seal had mentioned he'd like 4. I think this will be a massive failure commercially.
I think it will be a hit with the "advanced amateur" types. All of the drawbacks of the S2 are not that big of a deal if you don't shoot for commerce. The new "Age of Reason" brought on by the market doesn't touch these guys. Its all emotion, which is fine. I do think that leica made the switch full tilt to an LVMH type Luxury Goods maker. Which is fine too. They might even stay in business that way.
I bought my neighbors Boxter S with LOW LOW miles for less than the price of an S2 body w/o the Platinum Cobra Penis case and service package. My Dr. neigbor was selling because he always felt second rate because the 911 is a "better" ride. It bugged him for a few years, made him feel "less", incomplete, second rate. He bought a 911. I wonder if he feels whole now? Is he OK with himself now? Sorted that car problem. He is also a Leica afficianado. There is a cross over between the type "A" professions and the need to have the best, be unassailable, beyond criticism. Having the "best" supports this need, and leica makes the "best". Thus Leica will sell LOTS of S2 cams, because, at least in the States, Type A surgeons/investment bankers/dentists/traders/lawyers are rife, and the same need that drives them to suceed in their profession and earn big bucks drives their need to have the "best". Its a nice symbiotic relationship.
I didn't ean any of this as snark, its just how I see it.
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You obviously have a different model of knife to me, but mine is fantastic. I've sawn thick branches with the saw, cut nails, and vegetation with the scissors, used the knife to trim wild mushrooms, used the tweezers to handle small items, and so on. And far cheaper than those over priced hyped Leatherman style gadgets. End of rant. You may continue with the topic under discussion.
Thats cool, but a Leatherman will let you work on a set, and fix a car. A swiss army knife lets play Darwin, or be the hero at picnic when you realize you left the cork screw at home. There is a place for both!
And yes, there is a difference between the Real Deal Swiss version and the Hacho en Chino models!
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Thus Leica will sell LOTS of S2 cams, because, at least in the States, Type A surgeons/investment bankers/dentists/traders/lawyers are rife, and the same need that drives them to suceed in their profession and earn big bucks drives their need to have the "best". Its a nice symbiotic relationship.
Why would these people buy a Leica instead of a Hasselblad? ...especially as a proportion of them would be upgrading an existing Hasselblad system.
Why is the best known manufacturer of hand-held mirror-free cameras branching out into mirror "technology" just when some of us are realising that the days of mirrored cameras are numbered?
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The new "Age of Reason" brought on by the market doesn't touch these guys. Its all emotion, which is fine. I do think that leica made the switch full tilt to an LVMH type Luxury Goods maker. Which is fine too.
Agreed. You can't even think of it as marketing to people who'd actually use it to take photographs. The ads for it should be in the Robb Report and Travel and Leisure, instead of PopPhoto. Guaranteed, on the used market, these cameras will set a record for having the lowest Shot Count of any camera made. They'll stay in the original box, on the bedroom shelf, until it's time for vacation.
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Why would these people buy a Leica instead of a Hasselblad? ...especially as a proportion of them would be upgrading an existing Hasselblad system.
Why is the best known manufacturer of hand-held mirror-free cameras branching out into mirror "technology" just when some of us are realising that the days of mirrored cameras are numbered?
I know you have wood for view cameras and movements, but my cardio thorasic surgeon neighbor doesn't want to deal all that hassel. These guys are dilitantes, to a degree. They do have high pressure jobs, 70 hours a week. This guy harvests lungs on Life Flight, going to auto accidents for transplant organs, then transplantin them into another living person. So this guy doesn;t have time to learn something new, like movements, which really are only useful with static subjects, and how useful are they? Can you drag your P3 and all the supporting gear on a plane and take a vacation with it? Not a photo safari, but a nice vacation? Take inspired snaps? No, its big and bulky and requires a tripod, and tethering. It also is futsy, clutsy, wire rigged. I know its not, but again, we are dealing with perceptions.
Why not Blad? Why Leica? Because Leica is the "best." The lenses are the "best." The Leica is designed and built like, well, a Leica, or a Panzerkampfwagen V, or a Benz. The H is plastic and stupid looking (not that it is, but we are dealing with perceptions here). The H has some odd non-northern European orgins, maybe. There is the Fuji link. Leica spells
S-E-X. Fuji spells B-L-A-N-D. Hasselblad spells F-U-N-C-T-I-O-N-A-L, like a Ford.
In summery: Blad blew its brand recognition with the H. People see the 500 series and go "ohhhh". They see an H and they say "thats a big camera. Is it plastic?" People see a Leica, even my beat to hell M6, all brass and dents, and say: "wow, that's a cool camera".
I've been working a little on the client side of advertising lately, partnering with ad agencies, well, really only one, but I am providing creative. I've learned a lot about marketing, and I think the S2 will sell well enough. There is a market, the psychology is right, the brand is STRONG, maybe the strongest in photography, the target market has cash on hand, for the most part. I think Leica will do well, probably not with pros, and probably not in rental, but it will sell.
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Christopher,
With all my respect, I do not agree here: this image at ISO 640 is NOT good, if you meant to say that.
....
Best regards,
Thierry
Well the whole sense was "Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did." 640 so far is horrible and so it is GOOD that they DELAYED the camera ;-)
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I know you have wood for view cameras and movements, but my cardio thorasic surgeon neighbor doesn't want to deal all that hassel. These guys are dilitantes, to a degree. They do have high pressure jobs, 70 hours a week. This guy harvests lungs on Life Flight, going to auto accidents for transplant organs, then transplantin them into another living person. So this guy doesn;t have time to learn something new, like movements, which really are only useful with static subjects, and how useful are they?
One of the reasons I bought MF was the view camera option, (and I intend to use it with shutter-beams on moving subjects, like vaulters) but I know that most people would never want a view camera - which is why Hasselblad might make an integral camera & back sometime.
Can you drag your P3 and all the supporting gear on a plane and take a vacation with it? Not a photo safari, but a nice vacation? Take inspired snaps? No, its big and bulky and requires a tripod, and tethering. It also is futsy, clutsy, wire rigged. I know its not, but again, we are dealing with perceptions.
I think you can get a laptop and a Sinar f3 into a medium-sized briefcase, but that is irrelevant to this topic
Hasselblad spells F-U-N-C-T-I-O-N-A-L, like a Ford.
I am glad you think Hasselblads are functional... not just costume jewellery.
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Well the whole sense was "Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did." 640 so far is horrible and so it is GOOD that they DELAYED the camera ;-)
My apologies, Christopher, I have misunderstand you, and we agree then.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Of the Adverstising Photographers/Fashion Photographers on this board, who plans to WRITE THE CHECK for this system, not just rent it, but WRITE THE CHECK? And why? I don't mean people who think its cool (I do), but I mean WRITE THE CHECK? Assuming a system with backup is about $65k.
Thanks!
The S2 is nothing but a wet dream. it's sexy... then you wake up, change your undies, pick up a Canon and go to work.
Seriously, any ad photographer not investing every extra penny in marketing and creating new work, whether video or stills, but instead writing a check for a camera that no one has used, may not tether, isn't rentable, and can't be backed up with a second body needs to have his head examined.
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My appologies, Christopher, I have misunderstand you, and we agree then.
Best regards,
Thierry
No harm done. After rereading I knew that it could be understood wrong, so I just wanted to clarify it.
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One of the reasons I bought MF was the view camera option, (and I intend to use it with shutter-beams on moving subjects, like vaulters) but I know that most people would never want a view camera - which is why Hasselblad might make an integral camera & back sometime.
I think you can get a laptop and a Sinar f3 into a medium-sized briefcase, but that is irrelevant to this topic
I am glad you think Hasselblads are functional... not just costume jewellery.
Come on, an F3, a tripod, a laptop, a back, a few Lacie rugged drives, on vacation? NOT S-E-X. More like a C-O-C-K-B-L-O-C-K to a wealthy man with the wife on a long earned, expensive, vacation. Which camera system fits with this scene: A handsome couple in their late 50's, obviously well taken care of, sitting in the garden restaurant of the Loire valley Chateau where they are staying, they just had a five year vertical tasting of Chateau Laffitte Rothchild, starting with a '67. A fine meal of Froi Gras, some amazing beouf dish they can't pronounce, and its settling well, the light is pretty. The man says to his fetching wife "Honey, I want to remember you like this, at this moment, for the rest of our lives . . ." He reaches into his Hermes Valice and pulls out a tripod, a back, an F3, a laptop, a back adapter, some cables, starts to boot the systems, waits, starts Phocus, waits, starts the live view, waits . . . meanwhile his wife is flirting with the Spanish waiter. Of course, he wouldn't pull out an F3 and all the gear. He reaches into that $7,000 valise and pulls out the Leica S2, its big, its MODERN, its TRADITIONAL. Its clean, masculin design speaks volumes about the man and his exquisite taste. It is a symbol of his success. SNAP. Assured, confident, masculin. Then the Cialis does the rest.
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Love it!
+1
Thierry
Come on, an F3, a tripod, a laptop, a back, a few Lacie rugged drives, on vacation? NOT S-E-X. More like a C-O-C-K-B-L-O-C-K to a wealthy man with the wife on a long earned, expensive, vacation. Which camera system fits with this scene: A handsome couple in their late 50's, obviously well taken care of, sitting in the garden restaurant of the Loire valley Chateau where they are staying, they just had a five year vertical tasting of Chateau Laffitte Rothchild, starting with a '67. A fine meal of Froi Gras, some amazing beouf dish they can't pronounce, and its settling well, the light is pretty. The man says to his fetching wife "Honey, I want to remember you like this, at this moment, for the rest of our lives . . ." He reaches into his Hermes Valice and pulls out a tripod, a back, an F3, a laptop, a back adapter, some cables, starts to boot the systems, waits, starts Phocus, waits, starts the live view, waits . . . meanwhile his wife is flirting with the Spanish waiter. Of course, he wouldn't pull out an F3 and all the gear. He reaches into that $7,000 valise and pulls out the Leica S2, its big, its MODERN, its TRADITIONAL. Its clean, masculin design speaks volumes about the man and his exquisite taste. It is a symbol of his success. SNAP. Assured, confident, masculin. Then the Cialis does the rest.
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As usual, Michael is correct. The camera is now in use for the public in NYC and up-to-date images will be posted by many soon. I think that Juza just assumed that they could release out-of-date images yesterday since all others could post images themselves from the NYC show as of yesterday. I doubt they got clearance from Leica.
I have seen about 40 images from the S2 and can only comment on sharpness not ISO performance, as none required high ISO. The lens performance is what one would expect at this price range, perfect.
As Michael stated many years ago, Canon and Nikon may add many pixels, but the limit becomes the lens performance. So Leica decided that they would build great MF lenses and figured they might as well make a camera body too. The body/sensor will be updated as the years go by. The lenses won't have to.
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Of course, he wouldn't pull out an F3 and all the gear. He reaches into that $7,000 valise and pulls out the Leica S2, its big, its MODERN, its TRADITIONAL. Its clean, masculin design speaks volumes about the man and his exquisite taste. It is a symbol of his success. SNAP. Assured, confident, masculin. Then the Cialis does the rest.
I have been thinking that If I had known that the CFV 39 was coming out I could have saved about £15,000, as I could have used it with my existing Sinar and Hasselblad kit... but when you buy a H3D (or H4D) you get a point-and-shoot adaptor (with auto-focus) that is suitable for the sort of snapshottery you describe above, and when your wife is sunbathing you can put the back on the F3 and take some pictures.
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Come on, an F3, a tripod, a laptop, a back, a few Lacie rugged drives, on vacation? NOT S-E-X. More like a C-O-C-K-B-L-O-C-K to a wealthy man with the wife on a long earned, expensive, vacation. Which camera system fits with this scene: A handsome couple in their late 50's, obviously well taken care of, sitting in the garden restaurant of the Loire valley Chateau where they are staying, they just had a five year vertical tasting of Chateau Laffitte Rothchild, starting with a '67. A fine meal of Froi Gras, some amazing beouf dish they can't pronounce, and its settling well, the light is pretty. The man says to his fetching wife "Honey, I want to remember you like this, at this moment, for the rest of our lives . . ." He reaches into his Hermes Valice and pulls out a tripod, a back, an F3, a laptop, a back adapter, some cables, starts to boot the systems, waits, starts Phocus, waits, starts the live view, waits . . . meanwhile his wife is flirting with the Spanish waiter. Of course, he wouldn't pull out an F3 and all the gear. He reaches into that $7,000 valise and pulls out the Leica S2, its big, its MODERN, its TRADITIONAL. Its clean, masculin design speaks volumes about the man and his exquisite taste. It is a symbol of his success. SNAP. Assured, confident, masculin. Then the Cialis does the rest.
No wonder Leica has a reputation as a piece of jewelry and honestly, I have never met anyone that was impressed or excited by a camera of any type unless they were a photographer. The general public could give a dam. If it makes you feel better about yourself, then fine. But there are too many much more impressive things in life than a camera. And I shoot Leica. Because I used to feel that they had better lenses. But no one but me ever saw that. No one - ever - in 15 years. They could see the difference in 4 x 5 but even that was rare. But Leica, 35mm - never. You know why? Because all anyone (viewers) ever care about is content. Content is all that matters and all that will ever matter.
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They could see the difference in 4 x 5 but even that was rare. But Leica, 35mm - never. You know why? Because all anyone (viewers) ever care about is content. Content is all that matters and all that will ever matter.
Leica lenses were wasted on 35mm film... so digital is Leica's opportunity.
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Leica lenses were wasted on 35mm film... so digital is Leica's opportunity.
haha, that is a good one. Thank you for that.
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and when your wife is sunbathing you can put the back on the F3 and take some pictures.
. . . of your wife being rubbed down by some handsome young buck who moved in after noticing that her husband is dicking with some odd looking crap on a tripod . . .
In all seriousness, Leica has cachet. Leica has BRAND POWER. The S2 will do fine. Blad had it, its fading. The new stuff is all function, no S-E-X. S-E-X sells.
I won't buy one, because I shoot for commerce where such a camera would probably hinder my work, would definitely hinder the ol' bottom line.
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. . . of your wife being rubbed down by some handsome young buck who moved in after noticing that her husband is dicking with some odd looking crap on a tripod . . .
In all seriousness, Leica has cachet. Leica has BRAND POWER. The S2 will do fine. Blad had it, its fading. The new stuff is all function, no S-E-X. S-E-X sells.
I won't buy one, because I shoot for commerce where such a camera would probably hinder my work, would definitely hinder the ol' bottom line.
You might be right, but are there THAT many of these guys out there to support Leica? Is there that much money you think? I wonder..
In two years, the camera will be dead old. The surgeons and investment bankers, many of which lost their shirt recently, will they think "Time to get a new Leica." or will they think "That heavy ass camera that I never used that much that gave me those noisy ass images and cost as much as a nice car..? fuck it. I'm buying a boat"
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You might be right, but are there THAT many of these guys out there to support Leica? Is there that much money you think? I wonder..
I shot a large job last month that involved lots of Harleys and souped-up antique cars. Researched a lot of it and went to car shows to get a feel for the scene. In the end, I came away from it amazed at how much disposable income there is out there, for the silliest of stuff. (At least thru my eyes, by my values). Tens of thousands of dollars and more, for motorcycles, cars, guns, guitars, cameras, etc.
I have a whole different feeling about that S2 viability after shooting that job. Never underestimate a man's ability to blow good money on "collectibles" and the like, that in the end, will sit on a shelf. It had the inverse effect on me -- made me want to get rid of everything except the core gear that I have.
I don't know why that Leica camera gets under my skin so much. I have another friend with eight or nine M bodies, and multiple copies of lenses, and they stay in their weird glass cabinet, never being used. Really bugs me for some reason, this worship syndrome. You buy a hammer -- it's meant to be used up.
The only brand I mildly worship is the old 200-series Hasselblads. I had a slew of them, and every one of them magical. Oh, to be able to slap a digital back on a 203FE, and to be able to use the full 6x6 frame. (No vertical grip needed. Sorry, I had to get that dig in).
Signed,
A pissed-off Wilford Brimley
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No wonder Leica has a reputation as a piece of jewelry and honestly, I have never met anyone that was impressed or excited by a camera of any type unless they were a photographer. The general public could give a dam. If it makes you feel better about yourself, then fine. But there are too many much more impressive things in life than a camera. And I shoot Leica. Because I used to feel that they had better lenses. But no one but me ever saw that. No one - ever - in 15 years. They could see the difference in 4 x 5 but even that was rare. But Leica, 35mm - never. You know why? Because all anyone (viewers) ever care about is content. Content is all that matters and all that will ever matter.
I see where you are coming from and I sort of agree with you, but the lenses do matter, and Leica lenses aren't wasted on 35mm film. I like the Zeiss M lenses a bit better. I like the contrast. have you checked out the latest reissue of Frank's "The Americans"? Lenses mattered for those images, I think. The Nikons of the day were, generally, not up to Leica standards. This is 1955, though.
My clients could/can tell the difference in formats, even differences in lenses. An old Dagar 7" on a 4x5, all uncoated, shot wide open at 6.3 looks mighty different than almost anything else. The Leica M lenses on B&W are pretty amazing, so flat yet sharp. My clients comment on an over all vibe of an image, sometimes the vibe is OLD FASHIONED, sometimes its HYPER REAL, sometimes its DREAMY. Each format can help realize the vibe. The Vibe is content.
My experience is that the general public think the Leica M is sexy. Every editorial I've shot with the M8 gets subjects and models interested in the camera. My wife was an MUA and has seen every camera under the sun (OK, not the Hy6 or AFi). The only camera she has ever been interested in is a Leica M. When I shoot street outside of New York, I always get someone asking me about my camera. My M6 is beat, taped up. My M4P is immaculate, and taped up. My M8 is taped, a little beat. People want to know all about them. I had a wino in Boston asking me all about the camera. This guy knew optics, knew camera systems. He was well spoken despite having no front teeth. Now, the S2 is a big, well designed, Teutonic object of desire, with the red dot. This bitch will win bragging rights, its the bigest schlong in the big schlong contest, the longest pisser in the pissing contest.
The only camera I plan on buying, ever again, is an M9, when the price comes down. Maybe Kurland will have a Demo with a warranty for a $2k haircut.
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The lenses do matter, and Leica lenses aren't wasted on 35mm film. I like the Zeiss M lenses a bit better. I like the contrast.
My clients can tell the difference in formats, even differences in lenses. An old Dagar 7" on a 4x5, all uncoated, shot wide open at 6.3 looks mighty different than almost anything else. The Leica M lenses on B&W are pretty amazing, so flat yet sharp. My clients comment on an over all vibe of an image, sometimes the vibe is OLD FASHIONED, sometimes its HYPER REAL, sometimes its DREAMY. Each format can help realize the vibe. The Vibe is content.
My experience is that the general public think the Leica M is sexy. Every editorial I've shot with the M8 gets subjects and models interested in the camera. My wife was an MUA and has seen every camera under the sun (OK, not the Hy6 or AFi). The only camera she has ever been interested in is a Leica M. When I shoot street outside of New York, I always get someone asking me about my camera. My M6 is beat, taped up. My M4P is immaculate, and taped up. My M8 is taped, a little beat. People want to know all about them. I had a wino in Boston asking me all about the camera. This guy knew optics, knew camera systems. He was well spoken despite having no front teeth. Now, the S2 is a big, well designed, Teutonic object of desire, with the red dot. This bitch will win bragging rights, its the bigest schlong in the big schlong contest, the longest pisser in the pissing contest.
The only camera I plan on buying, ever again, is an M9, when the price comes down. Maybe Kurland will have a Demo with a warranty for a $2k haircut.
You sure use the word sexy a lot when you talk about cameras. What's up with that?
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You sure use the word sexy a lot when you talk about cameras. What's up with that?
You tell me why you noticed me using the word sexy a lot. Huh?
Its shorthand for an emotional draw. Now that I'm working some on the creative side, the ad agency copy writers' jargon rubbed off (no pun intended) on me.
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You tell me why you noticed me using the word sexy a lot. Huh?
Its shorthand for an emotional draw. Now that I'm working some on the creative side, the ad agency copy writers' jargon rubbed off (no pun intended) on me.
I noticed it because you are talking about a camera.
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I shot a large job last month that involved lots of Harleys and souped-up antique cars. Researched a lot of it and went to car shows to get a feel for the scene. In the end, I came away from it amazed at how much disposable income there is out there, for the silliest of stuff. (At least thru my eyes, by my values). Tens of thousands of dollars and more, for motorcycles, cars, guns, guitars, cameras, etc.
I have a whole different feeling about that S2 viability after shooting that job. Never underestimate a man's ability to blow good money on "collectibles" and the like, that in the end, will sit on a shelf. It had the inverse effect on me -- made me want to get rid of everything except the core gear that I have.
I don't know why that Leica camera gets under my skin so much. I have another friend with eight or nine M bodies, and multiple copies of lenses, and they stay in their weird glass cabinet, never being used. Really bugs me for some reason, this worship syndrome. You buy a hammer -- it's meant to be used up.
The only brand I mildly worship is the old 200-series Hasselblads. I had a slew of them, and every one of them magical. Oh, to be able to slap a digital back on a 203FE, and to be able to use the full 6x6 frame. (No vertical grip needed. Sorry, I had to get that dig in).
Signed,
A pissed-off Wilford Brimley
It really is shocking, the amount of Born to be Mild Harley dudes with their $50k worth of motorcycles, another $10k for a trailer, a $40k GMC Sierra to pull the trailer with the bikes, and trips to Myrtle Beach for the Born to Be Mild beer and golf weekends. These guys aren't even wealthy wealthy, not Cardio-Thorasic surgeon wealthy, not douchebag financier wealthy. The amount of waste is disgusting.
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I noticed it because you are talking about a camera.
Oh, yeah. That. I'm also a pervert. Sammy's Camera in LA has a restraining order out on me. So does Kurland in New York.
It was a set up! You should have seen what that camera was wearing!
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Oh, yeah. That. I'm also a pervert. Sammy's Camera in LA has a restraining order out on me. So does Kurland in New York.
It was a set up! You should have seen what that camera was wearing!
Sorry I missed it. Before I die I would love to see a sexy camera. Problem is, if I ever see a camera that I think is sexy I will get psychiatric help. I like females. Not electrodes and sensors.
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Sorry I missed it. Before I die I would love to see a sexy camera. Problem is, if I ever see a camera that I think is sexy I will get psychiatric help. I like females. Not electrodes and sensors.
I like curves. I lit a BMW commercial for the 5 Series. The director turned to me after the stunt driver NAILED a skid-to-break 10 feet from the camera, and said "That Car is PURE SEX" with LUST in his eyes.
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I like curves. I lit a BMW commercial for the 5 Series. The director turned to me after the stunt driver NAILED a skid-to-break 10 feet from the camera, and said "That Car is PURE SEX" with LUST in his eyes.
Then he needs help too. But that is good. You guys chase those cars and cameras. Keep yourself busy.
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Then he needs help too. But that is good. Leaves more women for me. You guys chase those cars and cameras. Keep yourself busy.
I think you need help too.
"something looking sexy" It is just a way of saying.
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... I shoot Leica. Because I used to feel that they had better lenses. But no one but me ever saw that. No one - ever - in 15 years.
The gallery owner I met with a couple months back had no idea which of my prints were from the Nikon or from the Leica. Maybe he saw a difference, maybe not, but the print he made the biggest fuss over, for its color quality and detail, was made with the DMR & 280 APO and at the end of our meeting the prints he chose for the gallery were all made with the Leica. Coincidence?
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Leica enthusiasts/collectors will buy S2's... and might leave them at home and use their M9s more...people who can afford large cameras cannot always be bothered to carry them.
I have a DLux-3, which I may sometime upgrade to a DLux-4 (for off-camera flash work).
Back in the 70s, when I got bored with my Nikon (tried a Mamiya briefly) and bought a Hasselblad, I thought that the only way to get a good sharp, contrasty 35mm slide was to take a pair of scissors to a Hasselblad slide... but you can get the same quality using Leica lenses.
I have a ¿Leica made? lens head for my Novoflex, and I look forward to mounting it on the front of my P3.
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Leica Back in the 70s, when I got bored with my Nikon (tried a Mamiya briefly) and bought a Hasselblad, I thought that the only way to get a good sharp, contrasty 35mm slide was to take a pair of scissors to a Hasselblad slide... but you can get the same quality using Leica lenses.
Dick, you were dreaming.
Having owned and worked with both 500C and 500CM bodies and 50, 80 snd 150mm lenses for them as well as with the Nikon F, F2, F3 and F4s there is no comparison between the same area situation you describe. Simply try it. You didn't even have to print the things (cut-outs) to know that dedicated top-grade 35mm equipment does better than top-grade 120 equipment cropped to the same 36mmx24mm format. Lens design restrictions preclude the same quality being able to be extended over a larger area with the result being compromise that reduces the quality when tested in the manner you suggest.
Someone else remarked about not being able to see the difference between Leica and other 35mm film work. In my last job as an employee we used to do sets for BBC TV in Scotland using an M3 and a 21mm, even thought the studio owner also had Nikon stuff. I remember printing the shots and being so impressed that I wished I could someday own the same equipment. In the end, the reflex system was far more suited to me and I never did buy into Leica, but for all that, I can't deny Leica their due: their lenses, those that I knew about, were certainly fantastic in the 60s and had their own handwriting.
One thing I would say, though, is that starting from scratch now, in a retired situation, were the funds available and no other equipment already sitting around the house doing precious little, I would be very tempted by the M9 and a single lens - probably a 35mm. Sometimes I feel that having too much choice simply gets in the way of actually going out and doing anything at all if you don't have to.
Someone else said that in a photograph, content is everything. He was right; and look is part of content.
Rob C
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Why would these people buy a Leica instead of a Hasselblad? ...especially as a proportion of them would be upgrading an existing Hasselblad system.
Why is the best known manufacturer of hand-held mirror-free cameras branching out into mirror "technology" just when some of us are realising that the days of mirrored cameras are numbered?
That was rather my thought as well. If the S2 had been released this time last year, I'd have given it consideration against the H3DII-31 that I went for. On paper at least I don't see much difference between the two systems. Except that, for all the Hasselblad bashing that goes on, the H3DII is a mature and established product with good system support, widely available from pro shops and hire outlets whereas the S2 is not even released yet.
There was just nothing about the S2 spec on paper that made it look like anything other than a catch-up to where Hasselblad already are.
Of course, there's much more to the intangibles of IQ than the on paper features set, and Leica lenses have very high repute, but the 'blad lenses are no slouches either.
I'd certainly have hired an S2 to try it out had it been available back in February, before making my buying decision, but to my eye they seem to be two or three years too late to a market which is already shrinking drastically.
Hywel.
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In all seriousness, Leica has cachet. Leica has BRAND POWER. The S2 will do fine. Blad had it, its fading. The new stuff is all function, no S-E-X. S-E-X sells.
I won't buy one, because I shoot for commerce where such a camera would probably hinder my work, would definitely hinder the ol' bottom line.
S-E-X sells in the studio fashion market - just look at the way Prophoto displaced Elinchrom by supplying sheer black housings and supple black cables matched to AD leather, boots and zippers.
Edmund
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I just don't agree that great design = sex. Great design is great design.
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I just don't agree that great design = sex. Great design is great design.
Great design is designed (and/or styled) for a purpose.
As an engineer, I do not enjoy seeing styling referred to as design, but good design/styling for an image-concious market may be "sexy", pleasing on the eye, likely to affect the hormone levels of the target market...
If any market is image-concious, might it be photographers?
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If any market is image-concious, might it be photographers?
Photographers are possibly the most "emotional" among all other fields, as such certainly image-conscious. At least that is the way I have seen it during all my time with them. One cannot sell to photographers the same way one sells other products, there has to be emotions involved, being it in the product, being it in the human relationships.
Thierry
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this conversation sure degenerated into a lot of nonsense.
anyone looking for serious info or thoughtful opinion on the S2, might think they were on Dpreview.
isn't this supposed to be a professional forum?
lets keep it on topic, please.
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isn't this supposed to be a professional forum? lets keep it on topic, please.
Oh please, the fact that Leica is making a medium format camera that is not a medium format camera that is now delayed for reasons unknown and Leaf has a back that is now selling for $10K and Canon will release a 1Ds Mark IV next year at 32mp, Hasselblad now has a full frame chip that is more full frame than their other full frame chip, I don't think your going to find any logic on forums anymore... the manufactures themselves are not logical.
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S-E-X sells in the studio fashion market - just look at the way Prophoto displaced Elinchrom by supplying sheer black housings and supple black cables matched to AD leather, boots and zippers.
Edmund
Rentals.
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edited
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isn't this supposed to be a professional forum?
Wherever did you get that idea?
This is a mixture of all sorts - a regular Bassetts.
Rob C
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edited
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Maybe there is a need for a professional forum. Maybe it could be called "working with cameras for a living".
Just a thought.
Maybe there's a need for a forum which avoids wild tangents, verbose off-topic rants, and misguided elitism. Maybe it could be called "on topic."
Just a thought.
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Notes from the battlefield.
It's a different world today. Demands, numbers, volume and quality is all 100% further up stream that it was 2 years ago.
Everybody in every business is fighting, pushing, working day and night to keep moving forward.
There are exceptions to every rule and for some maybe the Leica or a sixty billion megapixel digital back makes sense, but everyone should keep in mind there is a lot of difference in shooting one editorial portrait, a personal project vs. a commercial project of multiple set ups.
If i was shooting one person on white with a Mola Beauty dish, I'd shoot my p30 or p17 cause it's easy and after all I have 1200 watts to play with.
But shooting multiple set ups the world changes.
We are now into a massive studio shoot of 20 models a day, 20 set ups a day, three sets.
In ways it was perfect for medium format as I'm using a billion watts and I need a lot of dof and the framing of this gig is perfect for 645, (actually square would be even more perfect, so during pre light we set up one medium format tethering station, one canon tethering station.
With client's staring into both monitors we pre lit and shot with both systems and the clients didn't blink at what was what, even zoomed in. They just looked at the light, the content the speed and all liked the 1ds3 images and honestly I had a hard time telling any difference.
So with the plan to shoot both systems at the end of the first two days, (with many days remaining) the total count, Canon 4,000 something files, medium format 6 files.
Yea that's right 6 medium format so obviously the choice was made and it wasn't out of lack of desire, it is just too damn slow for what I'm shooting at the volume, the immediate feedback, the ability to use multipoint autofocus and because I have one AD that looks at first polaroid like it's final, with medium format I have to show the whole 24" image in all it's glory for me to really read the "polaroid" but with the Canon I can just unplug, set the lighting with the lcd and then tether up and show them what is closer to the look I want them to see.
Seems like a little thing but under this type of pressure, expense, deadlines, you don't have even 4 minutes to explain anything.
And this is not a low budget retail project, it's an international campaign, but the volume has quadrupled since last year, the time to shoot cut to 1/2 and the demands just as great as when you had one day for a set up instead of 24 minutes.
It's a project where 1 hour of overtime can cost $6,000 so it's not the cost of the camera that's the issue, it's the usability.
I would love for Leica or any medium format company to work with us during this week, then they would understand so many of the things we keep asking for, how important stability, reliability and usability is verses the claimed ultimate image quality.
I would love for them to see our pre production, 120 wardrobe changes, a three day casting, 7 estimate revises, people flying in from around the world and how exhausted everyone, crew and clients are before we shoot the first few frames.
I would like for them to see the look on a clients face when you can catch that one bit of spontaneity using a camera that starts instantly, has a response time of milliseconds shooting multiple models in a studio set and how when they see it on a 24" screen it's not the camera format that matters because on a 24" screen all camera formats are 24".
I think they would understand it's not the cost of the camera, it's the cost of production and the demands of the production.
I would like for the makers to see how easy eos utility and dpp is to learn. From 4,000 files not one crash, few if any slowdowns and the previews are fast large and detailed.. It may not be the most full featured software, but it sure beats paying for a dedicated digital tech and at the end of this shoot, batching out 10,000 jpgs from raw for the web galleries.
I would like for them to see how easy and secure a usb contact is. No special repeaters, no setting the camera for battery power, no powered hubs, just plug and play. We're shooting gigs and gigs of data, but if it was medium format the files would be twice size and my storage expense on this would be double, tripe the costs.
I would like for them to feel the buzz kill of slow specialty cameras, the expressions around the room with medium format when the "dedicated" digital tech says uh sorry, give me a few minutes to restart the computer and let's try cleaning those contacts on the lenses, the back and where's that new firewire cord?
I would like for them to understand that most clients do not see uber oversharped detail as pretty or a real plus. The don't want to see a hard lit face with ever pimple or blemish bright red and glowing.
I would like for them to see the process of when we leave the studio at 7pm and the clients come to our place to drink wine and review the images. Just drop the jpegs into any viewer and let it rip they can see everything on any computer, even their own and they laugh, they're happy and there is no one saying uh, well we have to go downstairs to the other computer station because it runs Leopard and the conference room computer only runs Tiger.
I would like for them to see one other thing. During this shoot, when we have a few seconds I really mean that when I say seconds, we put a model or two on one of the sets and shoot some video with the 5d2 and modeling lights. The client didn't ask for this, didn't even know we were doing it and yesterday when they saw it they just flipped. It was like they saw magic, because the ad agency, the marketing managers the vice president knows they can go back an show more than was expected.
I would like for them to think just for one moment if they were me, what camera system would they buy next. A $30,000 system with lenses to come, a $40,000 system with body, lenses grips to come, a camera that requires an extended warranty every few years, only shoots stills and at the end of the day doesn't really do any more in ASA, speed, lens selection or lcd view than my current paid for medium format cameras, or would they spend $7,000 for the next Canon or Nikon and think what happens in the worst case scenario? If lightning strikes and all 4 of my Canons go down I walk 24 ft. to the rental department and they hand me a 1ds3, or any Canon Lens I want, or I just call Samy's and they will deliver all the 5d2's I need in 30 minutes.
Let's get real. If I or most professionals are going to spend $40,000 on anything it's either a new grip truck, a set of HMI's or Porsche for the wife.
Sure Leica is going to prance out some guy named Segio that shoots a over retouched model on a white background and say see the detail of the new Leica S lenses, but is Sergio going to write the check in full?
So I doubt seriously if they are making the Leica for me, at least for the work that pays the bills, but I kind of wonder who they are making the Leica for?
I don't care if their market is trustafarians, AIG VP's with 44" waists and 18 year old trophy wifes that shoots sunsets in Cabo on a business retreat. Maybe that's their market.
Maybe that Leica guy with the sweater on his shoulders knows.
Maybe it's him.
BC
And again, all photographers want a camera for what and how THEY shoot. Can't build that. Camera's, all of them have their pluses and minuses. You shoot volume with good quality. That is how YOU shoot. Not how everyone shoots. That's my one wish about this place. People would understand that their way isn't the only way and leave some flexibility in their discussions and opinions with others.
But congrats to you. Nice to see you so busy. I could never shoot that way. Have no desire to shoot that way. But whatever works for each individual is what should guide THEM on their purchases. But leave room for the rest of us and understand that every job has a tool but no one tool can do every job.
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Let's get real. If I or most professionals are going to spend $40,000 on anything it's either a new grip truck, a set of HMI's or Porsche for the wife.
can one still buy a $40K Porche?
that is so '90s ...
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this conversation sure degenerated into a lot of nonsense.
anyone looking for serious info or thoughtful opinion on the S2, might think they were on Dpreview.
Actually, I think this thread is one of the more interesting. For once, thank God, we are discussing the use of a camera in the field, rather than MTF charts or pixel sizes or dynamic range in theory.
I think back to two cameras that just fit my hand SO well, when in actual use: my first Mamiya 6, and that old Hasselblad 503cx or ci, (can't remember), that had that awesome handgrip on the side. There was a third camera too, I think an old Linhof 4x5 Technika III that I owned and used for a long time. It had this awesome grip, maybe even made of wood. With all of these cameras, you just picked them up, and they said, "Let's hit the road, and get the hell out of here, and go take some pictures". You could shoot for days at a time, and the camera just fit in your hand so well.
I remember being at that Photo East thing one year, the year that the H1 came out, and me being a Hasselblad Butt Boy for years, I was anxious and concerned to see this new fancy model (that had the balls to abandon 6x6 format). I remember standing at that Hasselblad booth, and picking up the camera, and holding it to my eye, and simply feeling how it felt to shoot the camera. I remember just laying it back down, and shaking my head and walking away, thinking what a failure it was. That weird "bar of soap" handgrip. I'm not talking about the looks of the camera, I'm talking about how it felt to shoot it and how it felt in the hand, and projecting how it would feel to shoot it hard, all day long, on location, off a tripod. (I could care less about the grey color; a complete non-issue).
Maybe we have too many choices today. How in the world did the Hasselblad 500 series and the RZ keep so many working photographers so happy for so many years? I am talking DECADES of happiness.
As far as this thread drifting off-topic, well, Leica dug their own grave there. No mercy for them. They chose to pre-announce a camera, years in advance, in a marketplace that's changing by the month. And then they announce a ship date, and then delay it. Maybe they (and others) learn a lesson from that.
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Notes from the battlefield.
...SKIP...
bcooter,
Your opinion is highly valued and I thank you really for saving me allot of money and embarrassment. I suspected this was what using MFD was really like. Yes, one guy with camera and one girl in front of a white background is simple stuff and if your shooting hair or makeup for Dillard's I assume you would need the resolution. Also when shooting landscapes who is standing behind you looking at their watch? But this whole notion of image quality or nothing business that gets trotted out all the time is sadly missing a warning label "I hate using the camera and I only need it for the res, but because I spent $40,000 I have noticed that it has really nice dynamic too".
I am shooting for an ad campaign myself and shot one of them today. Three hours outside on location and the Canon never missed a beat even with the battery on it's last bar! With my $30K saved I can buy the lights I have always wanted, and if a customer ever complains I can tell them to foot the bill for a p65+ if they think they need it. Why should I pay for it and take all the risk of ownership?
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can one still buy a $40K Porche?
that is so '90s ...
I think a cayman is 45K. pretty close though.
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I think it will be a hit with the "advanced amateur" types. All of the drawbacks of the S2 are not that big of a deal if you don't shoot for commerce. The new "Age of Reason" brought on by the market doesn't touch these guys. Its all emotion, which is fine. I do think that leica made the switch full tilt to an LVMH type Luxury Goods maker. Which is fine too. They might even stay in business that way.
All things considered, I see many of the guys who would seriously consider buying a S2 mostly end up investing in stock instead.
Cheers,
Bernard
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All things considered, I see many of the guys who would seriously consider buying a S2 mostly end up investing in stock instead.
If you'd taken the purchase price of a full S2 system about eight months ago, and taken that amount and bought Apple stock, you'd have your money back, AND a complete S2 system. But of course, hindsight is 20/20.
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And again, all photographers want a camera for what and how THEY shoot. Can't build that. Camera's, all of them have their pluses and minuses. You shoot volume with good quality. That is how YOU shoot. Not how everyone shoots. That's my one wish about this place. People would understand that their way isn't the only way and leave some flexibility in their discussions and opinions with others.
But congrats to you. Nice to see you so busy. I could never shoot that way. Have no desire to shoot that way. But whatever works for each individual is what should guide THEM on their purchases. But leave room for the rest of us and understand that every job has a tool but no one tool can do every job.
you are absolutely correct...everybody should shoot with whatever gets them the shot....
but there is no logical reason for shooting DMF anymore today....not for any commercial or editorial work....DSLR files are more then good enough, the handling, speed, workflow, ease of use, ease of moving between shots.....DMF is just no competition....but of course why shouldn't someone WANT to shoot DMF? no problem....just don't try to make a point why it is necessary....or more professional.....
some people still shoot film...and love it...and like shooting it and they get a ton of work....it works for them...but you won't hear them trying to convince anyone that the workflow is better....or shooting is faster....and i am sure they are not shooting the work described before....because any sane client will want digital....
i am starting to wonder who and what DMF is really for these days.....other then pixelpeepers....and people who can afford it and like going on walks with their toys (god bless them...)....even architecture guys these days are switching to d3x with T/S lenses....
and no P65 will ever give you the feel of a 8x10 b&w....or those huge polaroid cameras....
i have a friend who shoots amazing landscapes and scenes for ads (cars,...) used to do that stuff on 4x5....moved to phase....still uses it because he is used to a certain way of working and movements.....he is shooting more and more with DSLR.....he always shot a lot with DSLR (for angles, lightchanges,....) but now that the quality is there, he just uses those files for final work....sometimes, sometimes not...but even for him it is a lot easier to just snap the shot then to turn around with the tripod, bla,bla,bla.....
event, journalists, wedding, sports, general editorial, stock.....all DSLR.....so which market is left? high fashion? terry richardson? nope...steven klein? shoots red and 5DII...some still shoot film.....
i guess i would like to know who the target market is other then serious amateurs...people who follow LR and actually read this forum.....
i think it is really wrong to tell someone on the fence today about a camera to look at DMF...even that new mamiya/aptus5 deal for 10000......regardless who the buyer is and what they will shoot.....a 5DII will be a better solution.....because the extra 7000 buys lights, assistants, models, trips,....any field you want to shoot in, your pics will be better because you will have spent the money wiser....unless of course you just want to shoot that tree outside your door and look at the file at 100% and get strangely aroused (a combination of what you see, what you think you are seeing and the high of having spent a ton of cash on it....)...just don't make a print because you might not see a difference.....also don't question your purchase just because your niece comes by and later emails you a better image of that tree from her iphone...because she shot it when the light was perfect....and you wife actually prints that shot because she prefers it....and gets annoyed with your blabbering about locked shadows and lack of detail and blown/blooming highlights....
my next purchase will be that new 40/2 cosina (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0910/09102005cosina20mm40mmefmount.asp) for my 5DII (without grip)....small enough to really always have it with me....and TAKE PICTURES
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...there is no logical reason for shooting DMF anymore today....not for any commercial or editorial work....DSLR files are more then good enough...
Wrong. I had an architect client last year who suddenly started to specify he wanted BIG prints to look good close up. My 1DS3 couldn't hack it for him but my 39mb MFD could. Without that I'd have lost a very good client. He has everything shot on the MFB and has already paid a tenth of the cost of the back. And with less time spent by me trying to get details out of shadows, etc, I have saved more time/money - even considering the faster shooting with the Canon. Of course, speed of use, etc etc are different but when you need big prints close up it's no contest.
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Wrong. I had an architect client last year who suddenly started to specify he wanted BIG prints to look good close up... And with less time spent by me trying to get details out of shadows, etc, I have saved more time/money - even considering the faster shooting with the Canon. Of course, speed of use, etc etc are different but when you need big prints close up it's no contest.
Like the argument for 120 over 35mm - it is quick and easy to get an adequate result with MFD, without stitching, spending hour on the computer...
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bcooter
One thing, man, you do write with a passion.
Glad to see you drowning in work - I mean that in a good way.
Rob C
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you are absolutely correct...everybody should shoot with whatever gets them the shot....
but there is no logical reason for shooting DMF anymore today....not for any commercial or editorial work....DSLR files are more then good enough, the handling, speed, workflow, ease of use, ease of moving between shots.....DMF is just no competition....but of course why shouldn't someone WANT to shoot DMF? no problem....just don't try to make a point why it is necessary....or more professional.....
some people still shoot film...and love it...and like shooting it and they get a ton of work....it works for them...but you won't hear them trying to convince anyone that the workflow is better....or shooting is faster....and i am sure they are not shooting the work described before....because any sane client will want digital....
i am starting to wonder who and what DMF is really for these days.....other then pixelpeepers....and people who can afford it and like going on walks with their toys (god bless them...)....even architecture guys these days are switching to d3x with T/S lenses....
and no P65 will ever give you the feel of a 8x10 b&w....or those huge polaroid cameras....
i have a friend who shoots amazing landscapes and scenes for ads (cars,...) used to do that stuff on 4x5....moved to phase....still uses it because he is used to a certain way of working and movements.....he is shooting more and more with DSLR.....he always shot a lot with DSLR (for angles, lightchanges,....) but now that the quality is there, he just uses those files for final work....sometimes, sometimes not...but even for him it is a lot easier to just snap the shot then to turn around with the tripod, bla,bla,bla.....
event, journalists, wedding, sports, general editorial, stock.....all DSLR.....so which market is left? high fashion? terry richardson? nope...steven klein? shoots red and 5DII...some still shoot film.....
i guess i would like to know who the target market is other then serious amateurs...people who follow LR and actually read this forum.....
i think it is really wrong to tell someone on the fence today about a camera to look at DMF...even that new mamiya/aptus5 deal for 10000......regardless who the buyer is and what they will shoot.....a 5DII will be a better solution.....because the extra 7000 buys lights, assistants, models, trips,....any field you want to shoot in, your pics will be better because you will have spent the money wiser....unless of course you just want to shoot that tree outside your door and look at the file at 100% and get strangely aroused (a combination of what you see, what you think you are seeing and the high of having spent a ton of cash on it....)...just don't make a print because you might not see a difference.....also don't question your purchase just because your niece comes by and later emails you a better image of that tree from her iphone...because she shot it when the light was perfect....and you wife actually prints that shot because she prefers it....and gets annoyed with your blabbering about locked shadows and lack of detail and blown/blooming highlights....
my next purchase will be that new 40/2 cosina (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0910/09102005cosina20mm40mmefmount.asp) for my 5DII (without grip)....small enough to really always have it with me....and TAKE PICTURES
Maybe some working photographers are making enough money to have the lights, trips, assistants, models and still shot DMF. And maybe some working photographers have clients that do appreciate and need large displays. And maybe some photographers have 3-4 systems depending on what the end use is. I'm not sure anyone in here has ever stated that you MUST only function with one system. Maybe most people in this forum are talking about DMF because this IS a DMS forum. Maybe there are lots of reasons both visceral and practical for people to shoot MF. Summing up the world views from only one perspective may be convenient for some but certainly doesn't make it accurate for everyone. Some people, seemingly like yourself, want to be fast and easy. Maybe others like going slow and methodical. Maybe the calculating experience of shooting DMF is as important to them as the quick and easy approach is to you? Maybe, just maybe the world is full of different people with different needs and desires and those needs are diametrically opposed to your own. I love Cranache and have very little use for Van Gogh. Go figure.
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If you'd taken the purchase price of a full S2 system about eight months ago, and taken that amount and bought Apple stock, you'd have your money back, AND a complete S2 system. But of course, hindsight is 20/20.
Funny you should say that, I actually did buy Apple stock when it was at 135...
But that is exactly my point, if you think that way you don't stop here and feel that there still enough potential for AAPL and many other stocks to keep going up. I believe that most of the people who've got the dough to get a S2 do so because they have been mostly thinking that way.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Wrong. I had an architect client last year who suddenly started to specify he wanted BIG prints to look good close up. My 1DS3 couldn't hack it for him but my 39mb MFD could. Without that I'd have lost a very good client. He has everything shot on the MFB and has already paid a tenth of the cost of the back. And with less time spent by me trying to get details out of shadows, etc, I have saved more time/money - even considering the faster shooting with the Canon. Of course, speed of use, etc etc are different but when you need big prints close up it's no contest.
i think that is the perfect exception to the rule...and DMF is there when you really need it....a lot of people already own a back and there is no reason NOT to use it....but one architect asking for large prints probably won't pay for a 50000+ system....but he might pay for the rental of that system....
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Maybe some working photographers are making enough money to have the lights, trips, assistants, models and still shot DMF. And maybe some working photographers have clients that do appreciate and need large displays. And maybe some photographers have 3-4 systems depending on what the end use is. I'm not sure anyone in here has ever stated that you MUST only function with one system. Maybe most people in this forum are talking about DMF because this IS a DMS forum. Maybe there are lots of reasons both visceral and practical for people to shoot MF. Summing up the world views from only one perspective may be convenient for some but certainly doesn't make it accurate for everyone. Some people, seemingly like yourself, want to be fast and easy. Maybe others like going slow and methodical. Maybe the calculating experience of shooting DMF is as important to them as the quick and easy approach is to you? Maybe, just maybe the world is full of different people with different needs and desires and those needs are diametrically opposed to your own. I love Cranache and have very little use for Van Gogh. Go figure.
if there was a twin lens rollei with a canon sensor in the back...that is what i would be shooting....i have shot more and longer with RZs and fuji 680s then with SLRs and never shot SLR with film.....still don't really like the format that much....
but i have also owned and shot everything from a leaf valeo to phase P30 and there really is nothing from working with these backs that i miss....shooting film with the 680 was a lot easier then shooting a P30 with the RZ....a LOT....and really the H1/2/3 is just a HUGE HEAVY DSLR to me and the 5DII does everything faster and much easier and the files look GREAT....
i am all about slow and methodical working but there is just something wrong when i cannot take the camera plug it in set everything up and have to make sure that the client does NOT see the first images because the color is horrible and the whole thing just looks wrong.....i am talking about DMF here....
talking about large screens....the screen on the 5DII actually almost put and end to tethered shooting for me....because i haven't seen a shot that does not look good on it....like in the old days of polaroid.....everybody knew this wasn't final film....but everybody wanted to see something visually pleasing to feel good about the work they are doing...not every brutal pore and red blotch that simply takes over the screen, no matter how much you adjust and no matter how great the light and composition is....of course everybody knows about post production and such but really....nobody should see themselves full screen from a DMF back raw out of the camera...
of course you can simply run a whole bunch of actions and setting and filters on every file....all you need is a powerplant for the CPU alone.....
there is no reason at all for anyone to throw out their DMF back or sell it or not use it...there is also no reason to work fast and furious with a 5DII....
and everybody who wants a S2 to go with their watch or car....or they feel that they need that toy to create better images....please...please...the longer leica is alive the better for all of us....but it has nothing to do with photography....
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I think a cayman is 45K. pretty close though.
In you dreams. Here in the US most new Caymans go out the door for over 70-80K
So the Leica S2 is actually cheaper. Not too bad when you look at it that way.
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In you dreams. Here in the US most new Caymans go out the door for over 70-80K
So the Leica S2 is actually cheaper. Not too bad when you look at it that way.
Paying retail?
http://tinyurl.com/ylc823l (http://tinyurl.com/ylc823l)
BC
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Paying retail?
http://tinyurl.com/ylc823l (http://tinyurl.com/ylc823l)
BC
I like it better than my Boxter, but I feel that I can drive the Boxter like I stole it from someone I don't like.
My M8 looks good on tan leather seats, too.
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I like it better than my Boxter, but I feel that I can drive the Boxter like I stole it from someone I don't like.
My M8 looks good on tan leather seats, too.
perhaps some day you may get a "real" Porche ...
[/i]
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perhaps some day you may get a "real" Porche ...
[/i]
cyberean
I noticed that you retouched out the large key that normally projects from the lid at the rear; what would we do without Photoshop! Probably buy Italian, I guess.
Rob C
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perhaps some day you may get a "real" Porche ...
[/i]
That is a fetching late 70's or early 80's 911. It has the Fuchs wheels. I thought about getting an older 911 but I wanted a car I can drive hard and not worry about parking on the street. I don't need a hobby, but I bet the buyers for the S2, they need a hobby.
The a la carte Ostrich Penis leather is the way to go with the S2, in deep brown with a matching leather case. Perhaps coordinate with other lux goods makers on colors?
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That is a fetching late 70's or early 80's 911. It has the Fuchs wheels. I thought about getting an older 911 but I wanted a car I can drive hard and not worry about parking on the street. I don't need a hobby, but I bet the buyers for the S2, they need a hobby.
The a la carte Ostrich Penis leather is the way to go with the S2, in deep brown with a matching leather case. Perhaps coordinate with other lux goods makers on colors?
Since you seem to know a lot about Ostrich penises, would the deep brown be the natural color or would it have to dyed that color?
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Since you seem to know a lot about Ostrich penises, would the deep brown be the natural color or would it have to dyed that color?
Oh, yeas, its a natural deep brown. Really breath taking. It goes well with my elephant foot brolly holder, elephant foot stools, and white seal leather couch I bougfht custom from B&B Italia. I am a connisour of the finest (OK, at least EXPENSIVE), things.
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That is a fetching late 70's or early 80's 911. It has the Fuchs wheels. I thought about getting an older 911 but I wanted a car I can drive hard and not worry about parking on the street. I don't need a hobby, but I bet the buyers for the S2, they need a hobby.
The a la carte Ostrich Penis leather is the way to go with the S2, in deep brown with a matching leather case. Perhaps coordinate with other lux goods makers on colors?
80's 911s are as reliable as hammers. It's not uncommon for the SC and the 3.2 Carrera to go 300,000 miles without needing an engine rebuild. Compared to other 80's cars, they were expensive, but give 20 years of general inflation, they are great bargains now. You couldn't afford to buy a new Mini with the cash required to buy a really excellent 80's 911. Park it on the street - who cares if it gets stolen? Just go get another one. Before long, there won't be many criminals left who now how to drive a manual trans anyway, esp. with controls as heavy as air-cooled 911s have. Insurance is cheap for them. What's not to love?
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Oh, yeas, its a natural deep brown. Really breath taking. It goes well with my elephant foot brolly holder, elephant foot stools, and white seal leather couch I bougfht custom from B&B Italia. I am a connisour of the finest (OK, at least EXPENSIVE), things.
Given the current turmoil, maybe Leica should do the S2 in Banker's skin, though the penis skin option might me too gross, and anyway, you'd too many bankers to get enough skin to cover one unit ...
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cyberean
I noticed that you retouched out the large key that normally projects from the lid at the rear; what would we do without Photoshop! Probably buy Italian, I guess.
Rob C
what we'd do w/o Photochop is probably be less suspicious
of images that weren't photochopped in the first place ...
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Paying retail?
http://tinyurl.com/ylc823l (http://tinyurl.com/ylc823l)
BC
Yup, now is the time to pick up the car of your dreams. Two years old and it's half price, amazing.
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what a load of nonsense this thread has degenerated into: porsche prices, rub downs by pools, ostrich leather.
sure I have a sense of humor, but really you guys are (1) not that funny, and (2) should start another thread.
seriously - why hijack this one?
anyone looking for useful information about the MF digital and S2 had better go elsewhere.
any chance of a moderator keeping this on topic or closing the thread?
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anyone looking for useful information about the MF digital and S2 had better go elsewhere.
any chance of a moderator keeping this on topic or closing the thread?
Subforum title says Digital Backs and Large Sensors. S2 matches neither, so this thread is off-topic anyway.
So let's go back to our nonsense. Here's my contribution:
Young tender starlet Malou
Pursued by a paparazzi S2
Ran from the Leica
That wanted to do 'er
Now she hates lenses - and you.
Edmund
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what a load of nonsense this thread has degenerated into: porsche prices, rub downs by pools, ostrich leather.
sure I have a sense of humor, but really you guys are (1) not that funny, and (2) should start another thread.
seriously - why hijack this one?
anyone looking for useful information about the MF digital and S2 had better go elsewhere.
any chance of a moderator keeping this on topic or closing the thread?
Come on and have a little fun... besides these gentlemen have picked up something right - the S2 most likely have more connection to the above list of items than pro work.
btw - I have nothing against the Leica and I hope they do well.
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Two years old and it's half price, amazing.
for a moment there i thought we was back on track discussing MF digi backs ...
still, i need to go back and review the thread, as i missed the "rub downs by pools" post ...
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a little haiku maybe?
S2 discordant
ideates utility
maybe tomorrow
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here's a PDN story about a guy that shot it for a half hour.
http://tinyurl.com/yja98ab (http://tinyurl.com/yja98ab)
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Hi,
It seems that the new RAW-processor in Lightroom 3 makes a big difference regarding noise, same will also apply to ACR.
Erik
Threadjack: It was my understanding that ACR and Lightroom use the same raw processing engine. Is this not correct? (C1 of course is a different thing entirely not coming from Adobe.)
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a little haiku maybe?
S2 discordant
ideates utility
maybe tomorrow
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here's a PDN story about a guy that shot it for a half hour.
http://tinyurl.com/yja98ab (http://tinyurl.com/yja98ab)
Is it really lighter than a 1Ds Mark III?
The camera is also relatively lightweight and even after a half-hour of shooting with a 70mm and then a 180mm lens, I didn’t feel fatigued and my arms and wrists didn’t ache as they sometimes do when shooting with a pro DSLR and long lens.
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It makes me sick to read this type of shilling that the author writes unashamedly. Is it really lighter than a 1Ds Mark III?
It is lighter, actually.
The production S2 is quite a bit lighter than the pre-production models up until now. The reason is that the pre-production cameras were made of milled aluminum whereas the final production cameras are made of cast magnesium alloy. Just based on personal feel, I'd guess the weight savings is about 50-100g.
David
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It is lighter, actually.
The production S2 is quite a bit lighter than the pre-production models up until now. The reason is that the pre-production cameras were made of milled aluminum whereas the final production cameras are made of cast magnesium alloy. Just based on personal feel, I'd guess the weight savings is about 50-100g.
David
Thank you for the info.
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Subforum title says Digital Backs and Large Sensors. S2 matches neither, so this thread is off-topic anyway.
Edmund
come on Edmund - this is a forum for digital cameras/ sensors larger than 35mm that much is obvious.
to say the S2 doesn't fit into that is silly, and you are smarter than that.
we need some moderation here to keep it on topic and useful.
the endless waffle, 'humor' and wildly off subject postings of this thread has tipped me over: I miss Rob Galbraith and his firm moderation of those forums that kept everything useful and on-topic.
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come on Edmund - this is a forum for digital cameras/ sensors larger than 35mm that much is obvious.
to say the S2 doesn't fit into that is silly, and you are smarter than that.
we need some moderation here to keep it on topic and useful.
the endless waffle, 'humor' and wildly off subject postings of this thread has tipped me over: I miss Rob Galbraith and his firm moderation of those forums that kept everything useful and on-topic.
What does anyone have to say about the S2? It seems that no one, and I mean no one, has spent more than 1/2 an hour with it. until there are units in hand, being shot by a civilian/non-industry affiliated person, there can only be speculation.
What is known about the S2, mainly price and a data sheet, has been commented upon. The marketing, which is a Known Known a la Don Rumsfeld, is fertile ground for humour. Is it not? In discussing a Canon 1ds3, you can comment about other options for your cash, such as a D3x. With the S2, another option for the cash, for the intended market, is a Porsche. So its not that off topic. Besides, if the brick wall shooters and DC Raw Analyzer guys can have an 18 page thread about physics, I think the shooters can shoot the shit about marketing and make fun of the S2, as great as it probably is.
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It is lighter, actually.
The production S2 is quite a bit lighter than the pre-production models up until now. The reason is that the pre-production cameras were made of milled aluminum whereas the final production cameras are made of cast magnesium alloy. Just based on personal feel, I'd guess the weight savings is about 50-100g.
David
Does the S2 have an optional drive that boosts capture speed and provides vertical release?
Mark
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Does the S2 have an optional drive that boosts capture speed and provides vertical release?
Mark
(http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/photos/stylus/73855-Leica-S2-Booster.jpg)
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Thx Cyberean
Now let's put the S2 on a scale :>))
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here's a PDN story about a guy that shot it for a half hour.
http://tinyurl.com/yja98ab (http://tinyurl.com/yja98ab)
And I thought I was a Control Freak.
I love how the woman in the studio set the shutter speed and fstop of the S2 for the guy, and then handed it to him, and then ran the Mac for him.
I can imagine the conversation: "Uh, can I test it wide open?"
Lady: "No, we prefer you shoot it at 5.6"
Guy: "Uh, but I like shooting wide open".
Lady: "We really prefer you shooting at 250th and 5.6 at only ASA 160. Zee files looks best this way".
Guy: "Uh, but what about ASA 800 or so?"
Lady: "We sinks ASA 160 looks very nice. Would you like to shoot another frame?"
Guy: "Uh, I'd like to shoot something with the modeling light only at ASA 800, and I'd like to look at the tethering software."
Lady: "Oops, sorry, your allotted half hour is up. But thank you for testing the new Leica S2".
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(http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/photos/stylus/73855-Leica-S2-Booster.jpg)
All kidding aside, that is sexy.
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All kidding aside, that is sexy.
http://tinyurl.com/yh7784o (http://tinyurl.com/yh7784o)
Target market.
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All kidding aside, that is sexy.
BIG too.
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All kidding aside, that is sexy.
Do you ask your significant other to dress up in a camera costume as a prelude to an exciting night in? No, please don't answer that, I should not ask such a personal question. I fail to see how the camera can be 'sexy'. Maybe I need to stay in more.
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sexy is as sexy does ...
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I fail to see how the camera can be 'sexy'. Maybe I need to stay in more.
Slough,
Checked out your link and now understand your perspective on 'sexy' :>))
If this don't beat all
http://www.leifgoodwin.co.uk/Fungi/Mutinus%20caninus.html (http://www.leifgoodwin.co.uk/Fungi/Mutinus%20caninus.html)
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Slough,
Checked out your link and now understand your perspective on 'sexy' :>))
If this don't beat all
http://www.leifgoodwin.co.uk/Fungi/Mutinus%20caninus.html (http://www.leifgoodwin.co.uk/Fungi/Mutinus%20caninus.html)
Some people call it The Dog Willy fungus. The tip is red once the slime has been licked off by flies.
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why is it that in any beauty advert (at least in a big-enough print ad that is), the women NEVER have any visible hair on their face?
this S2 sample image of the girl, whoo-hoo-hairy-lip?!]
I'm blindly assuming that either the models shave their ENTIRE face, except for eyebrows, to minimize retouching on the face?
maybe its just in the single light source at the right angle theory for this shot
-Dan
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No shaving. Its post. That's why the post budget on beauty is sometimes more than the production budget.
Before digital retouching was widespread no one would light a woman with a hard light at an oblique angle. No way. It was all big sources from over head, straight on. Butterfly style. Scitex changed all of that, and Pascal is rich rich rich because of the need for good retouching.
To keep it on topic, sort of, last time I saw Pascal an M8 fell out of his bag. This was a few years ago.
why is it that in any beauty advert (at least in a big-enough print ad that is), the women NEVER have any visible hair on their face?
this S2 sample image of the girl, whoo-hoo-hairy-lip?!]
I'm blindly assuming that either the models shave their ENTIRE face, except for eyebrows, to minimize retouching on the face?
maybe its just in the single light source at the right angle theory for this shot
-Dan
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What does anyone have to say about the S2? It seems that no one, and I mean no one, has spent more than 1/2 an hour with it. until there are units in hand, being shot by a civilian/non-industry affiliated person, there can only be speculation.
What is known about the S2, mainly price and a data sheet, has been commented upon. The marketing, which is a Known Known a la Don Rumsfeld, is fertile ground for humour. Is it not? In discussing a Canon 1ds3, you can comment about other options for your cash, such as a D3x. With the S2, another option for the cash, for the intended market, is a Porsche. So its not that off topic. Besides, if the brick wall shooters and DC Raw Analyzer guys can have an 18 page thread about physics, I think the shooters can shoot the shit about marketing and make fun of the S2, as great as it probably is.
Beside, a "sexy" Porsche should always be an "in topic" for photographers.
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come on Edmund - this is a forum for digital cameras/ sensors larger than 35mm that much is obvious.
to say the S2 doesn't fit into that is silly, and you are smarter than that.
we need some moderation here to keep it on topic and useful.
the endless waffle, 'humor' and wildly off subject postings of this thread has tipped me over: I miss Rob Galbraith and his firm moderation of those forums that kept everything useful and on-topic.
Hehe, most of us here seem to be precisely RG refugees.
Personally, I think we are being very much on-topic and these postings about the S2 are very useful - Leica is being told in a funny way that existing MF shooters do not find the product specs and pricing appealing.
And so we're discussing whether existing MF shooters fit into the marketing profile of Leica at all - consensus seems to be moving to *no, this camera needs to find another audience*.
Edmund
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A black paint version with maybe a special chrome lens set would make me get really excited - bliss would be a crocodile skin covering...cant wait to see Luigi's leather case for it either - I do hope I get a Leica /S2 cap to go with my kit. I am thinking teh second ( back-up ) body has to be in anthracite or that new steel grey finish - one S2 for colour work and the other for B&W files. - wouldnt it be neat if they made a film version of the body - why not!! we need one and we want one. I am going to hot rod my s2 with a nice Alpa viewfinder sitting there on the flash mount (picture it ?) - the retro touch would rock!!
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... so we're discussing whether existing MF shooters fit into the marketing profile of Leica at all - consensus seems to be moving to *no, this camera needs to find another audience*.
And maybe Leica is aiming at another audience, never having been an MF company. Did "Seal" ever use MF? Maybe, the S SLR series is intended to succeed the R SLR series, and to bring back the sex appeal talk, it is positioned as "like a 35mm DSLR after silicone implants".
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Hehe, most of us here seem to be precisely RG refugees.
Personally, I think we are being very much on-topic and these postings about the S2 are very useful - Leica is being told in a funny way that existing MF shooters do not find the product specs and pricing appealing.
And so we're discussing whether existing MF shooters fit into the marketing profile of Leica at all - consensus seems to be moving to *no, this camera needs to find another audience*.
Edmund
Dear Edmund
You polled them (THE mf SHOOTERS)? was it 60% against? 80%.
Sorry, but the minute MF shooters accepted a cropped sensor, all bets were off
somewhere between 6cmx6cm and 4x5 is where MF likely stops, and it begins where? Since 135 (and 127) format we know, I remember 620 etc. Likely would be MF
But size aside from my quick scan of several fora, MF shooters (incl here) accept that the S format is such a beast. if we want a 6x6 plus 645 forum, maybe lets say so.
My major problem with a lot of these discussions is that the postings have a "when did you stop beating your wife" feel. sort of "Why would Leica be so stupid as to spend their expertise on this size camera.
Well I can suggest one; it is a great compromise if you want MF detail and depth in a SEALED camera.
For that, it has no peer.
Victor
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Dear Edmund
You polled them (THE mf SHOOTERS)? was it 60% against? 80%.
Sorry, but the minute MF shooters accepted a cropped sensor, all bets were off
somewhere between 6cmx6cm and 4x5 is where MF likely stops, and it begins where? Since 135 (and 127) format we know, I remember 620 etc. Likely would be MF
But size aside from my quick scan of several fora, MF shooters (incl here) accept that the S format is such a beast. if we want a 6x6 plus 645 forum, maybe lets say so.
My major problem with a lot of these discussions is that the postings have a "when did you stop beating your wife" feel. sort of "Why would Leica be so stupid as to spend their expertise on this size camera.
Well I can suggest one; it is a great compromise if you want MF detail and depth in a SEALED camera.
For that, it has no peer.
Victor
Victor - good points.
Please buy one and the tell us how it really is. We trust you. No joke.
Edmund
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Dear Edmund
You polled them (THE mf SHOOTERS)? was it 60% against? 80%.
Sorry, but the minute MF shooters accepted a cropped sensor, all bets were off
somewhere between 6cmx6cm and 4x5 is where MF likely stops, and it begins where? Since 135 (and 127) format we know, I remember 620 etc. Likely would be MF
But size aside from my quick scan of several fora, MF shooters (incl here) accept that the S format is such a beast. if we want a 6x6 plus 645 forum, maybe lets say so.
My major problem with a lot of these discussions is that the postings have a "when did you stop beating your wife" feel. sort of "Why would Leica be so stupid as to spend their expertise on this size camera.
Well I can suggest one; it is a great compromise if you want MF detail and depth in a SEALED camera.
For that, it has no peer.
Victor
Not peers because they are out of production: Mamiya ZD, Sinar Hy6 65 with a fixed back. And, to keep it cheap, the Pentax 645D, supposedly forthcoming.
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Despite the caustic opinions expressed here about the S2, Leica claim that the number of pre-orders exceeds expectations.
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Despite the caustic opinions expressed here about the S2, Leica claim that the number of pre-orders exceeds expectations.
Go and look at that file from that PDN article at full rez. Then, go and look at yourself in the mirror, and ask yourself, "if I didn't know that that file was from a Leica camera, would it blow me away?" You guys are suffering from Red Dot Hope-itis, and it's going to cost you a lot of money. It's a fine file, but it's just another digital file. It's not like it's some revolution, in the way that Velvia was, in the old days. It's just another digital file.
After you do that, go back to that same mirror, and say this sentence to yourself, three times without stopping: "Leica: Twenty-seven thousand; 5DMarkII: Twenty-seven hundred".
And if that doesn't work, then make up a sentence about the usable ASA's of the two cameras, and that should do the trick.
If you're still feeling shitty about yourself after all that, then go get a haircut, and maybe a pair of new shoes. There's no need to drop $35k to feel good about yourself. Or, go buy ten 5dMarkII's, and give nine of them away to young, hungry high school students, and feel good that you contributed to them expressing themselves.
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Not peers because they are out of production: ..., Sinar Hy6 65 with a fixed back ....
Dear TMARK,
I wish to correct this because (partly) wrong:
Admitted, the Hy6/AFi/Rolleiflex Hy6 are currently under production stop, but the Sinar Hy6 65 or Sinar Hy6 eSprit 65 r are still sold actively as from the beginning.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear TMARK,
I wish to correct this because (partly) wrong:
Admitted, the Hy6/AFi/Rolleiflex Hy6 are currently under production stop, but the Sinar Hy6 65 or Sinar Hy6 eSprit 65 r are still sold actively as from the beginning.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Wasn't/isn't one of the Hy6 65's an integral unit? I seem to remember that from one of your posts near launch. God knows that info wasn't from SinarBron USA.
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Thierry,
Wasn't/isn't one of the Hy6 65's an integral unit? I seem to remember that from one of your posts near launch. God knows that info wasn't from SinarBron USA.
Yes, TMARK, the "Sinar Hy6 65" is the integral unit, while the "Sinar Hy6-s65r" is the same but with the Sinarback eSprit 65 ("s" for eSprit and "r" for revolving).
Both still available, see here "Digital Configurations":
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_uploads/b...009_noprice.pdf (http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_uploads/bibliothek/k_98_Miscellaneous/518_0_sinardigital_2009_noprice.pdf)
Best regards,
Thierry
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Many years ago while doing large pieced-together fine art panoramic murals (up to 15' high by 60' long) in Europe using 35mm I flew to Wetzlar to hand test and select 7 different lenses for my new R3. I had started doing pieced together panoramics about 1979, in advance of David Hockney's work. At the time I was unaware of all the panoramic work that had proceed mine; i.e. Muybridge's image of San Francisco after the earthquake. You can see some of the early work under Landscapes in my web site: www.billthompson.com. A few years ago I switched from the R3 to the Canon 1DS Mark 2 after testing them side by side and seeing the high end digital "blew away" film. Then I switched to the Hasselblad H1 now with the Leaf 75S back. Some of my current images have as many as 100 inner photographs. The files can run to 6 or 7 gigabytes. Of course all the assembling is now done mostly with PT Gui or Photomerge CS4 when there are no architectural renderings. Before I would assemble the images interconnecting them with double sided archival adhesive and then mount them on canvas (so that I could roll and ship them) using PVC glue.
I have been following the "Photomerge" related image making of the last few years but until now have never posted a message. I have views on this "movement" but I mainly post today to report on recent lenses tests that involved the new S2. Firstly I tested and then retested the new Zeiss digital lenses that are just now coming out. They were lent to me by Zeiss. My first tests showed that the lenses were not too good so I borrowed another set from Zeiss. I tested the 50mm and the 85mm. Neither one, after extensive testing (and using 2 different sets of brand new lenses) were as good as the top Canon lenses of the same mm. In fact the Canon f1.2 was far superior to the Zeiss. This was quite surprising. I have always done rigorous lens testing and always at every f stop measuring center and corners. I am obsessive about this as I always shoot to be produced as murals and try to be artist with very good craft. I never wanted to use more than a medium format camera because of weight and speed of shooting. As most of you know shooting panoramics and making them seamless requires working as fast as possible because of light changes. Recently in NYC I tested the S2 with the 70mm and 180mm lenses against my Leaf Aptus 75S which has just about the same is sensor size- 33 vs 37.5. The H1 lenses I used were the 80mm and the 150mm. I could have used the 210mm but it is not as sharp a lens as the 150mm. I shot the same photos from the same distances with strobe at the same time and at the same fstop f9.5. Though they are not perfect for comparison (especially the 150 vs 180mm) they are close enough. I had really hoped that the Leaf & Hasselblad lenses would best the Leica as I didn't want to even consider switching systems (mainly because of price). The results were almost the same which to me is a compliment to the S3 and the Leitz optics. The camera is the most beautifully designed 35mm style camera that I have held since I used the R3. The lenses are truly exceptional.
Bill Thompson
NYC
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i like your work bill, very nice and interesting stitches. great.
a bit surprised than about your web page which is i.m.o. far behind the style of your images, but maybe its us taste.
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I love the whole topic but this one is a killer
Oh please, the fact that Leica is making a medium format camera that is not a medium format camera that is now delayed for reasons unknown and Leaf has a back that is now selling for $10K and Canon will release a 1Ds Mark IV next year at 32mp, Hasselblad now has a full frame chip that is more full frame than their other full frame chip, I don't think your going to find any logic on forums anymore... the manufactures themselves are not logical.
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i like your work bill, very nice and interesting stitches. great.
a bit surprised than about your web page which is i.m.o. far behind the style of your images, but maybe its us taste.
The site was developed to show my golf mural for that market which like most "markets" right now is not much of one. Always interested in site ideas. Maybe let me know which sites you find good.
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i like your work bill, very nice and interesting stitches. great.
a bit surprised than about your web page which is i.m.o. far behind the style of your images, but maybe its us taste.
Rainer
Just looked at your site- nice work. Obviously a problem with my site as it's not fine art and it's not commercial.
Bill
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Go and look at that file from that PDN article at full rez. Then, go and look at yourself in the mirror, and ask yourself, "if I didn't know that that file was from a Leica camera, would it blow me away?" You guys are suffering from Red Dot Hope-itis, and it's going to cost you a lot of money. It's a fine file, but it's just another digital file. It's not like it's some revolution, in the way that Velvia was, in the old days. It's just another digital file.
After you do that, go back to that same mirror, and say this sentence to yourself, three times without stopping: "Leica: Twenty-seven thousand; 5DMarkII: Twenty-seven hundred".
And if that doesn't work, then make up a sentence about the usable ASA's of the two cameras, and that should do the trick.
If you're still feeling shitty about yourself after all that, then go get a haircut, and maybe a pair of new shoes. There's no need to drop $35k to feel good about yourself. Or, go buy ten 5dMarkII's, and give nine of them away to young, hungry high school students, and feel good that you contributed to them expressing themselves.
Do you feel better now? Sometimes it's best to get something off your chest.
By the way, I was not referring to my opinion, but a statement by Leica.
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Go and look at that file from that PDN article at full rez. Then, go and look at yourself in the mirror, and ask yourself, "if I didn't know that that file was from a Leica camera, would it blow me away?" You guys are suffering from Red Dot Hope-itis, and it's going to cost you a lot of money. It's a fine file, but it's just another digital file. It's not like it's some revolution, in the way that Velvia was, in the old days. It's just another digital file.
After you do that, go back to that same mirror, and say this sentence to yourself, three times without stopping: "Leica: Twenty-seven thousand; 5DMarkII: Twenty-seven hundred".
And if that doesn't work, then make up a sentence about the usable ASA's of the two cameras, and that should do the trick.
If you're still feeling shitty about yourself after all that, then go get a haircut, and maybe a pair of new shoes. There's no need to drop $35k to feel good about yourself. Or, go buy ten 5dMarkII's, and give nine of them away to young, hungry high school students, and feel good that you contributed to them expressing themselves.
gw,
YOU should star in a reality show.
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I have a theory that gwhitf and bcooter are actually the two grumpy old guys on The Muppet Show...
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I have a theory that gwhitf and bcooter are actually the two grumpy old guys on The Muppet Show...
I know and have met both and while they can be grumpy at times, they ain't old and are far from being muppets...
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I know and have met both and while they can be grumpy at times, they ain't old and are far from being muppets...
I do second Yair in this: Far from being old and Muppet-like!
Thierry
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And I'll add that while I've met neither gentleman, I accept both posters as being the best combination of humor, common sense and real information on the board.
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And I'll add that while I've met neither gentleman, I accept both posters as being the best combination of humor, common sense and real information on the board.
+1
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At times, I feel that this forum has stealth marketing written all over it.
And no, I will never buy a Canon camera again, because the IQ is not as good as my Hasselblad. It is as simple as that.
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At times, I feel that this forum has stealth marketing written all over it.
And no, I will never buy a Canon camera again, because the IQ is not as good as my Hasselblad. It is as simple as that.
Uh, stealth marketing?
I think on this forum section the marketing is far from stealth. Hell fire fella, in the land of the bigger than smaller sensored section, they're dealer signatures, product's represented under signatures, e-mail direct links, lists of special offers, invitations to sales seminars, listing of price reduction on clearance items, shots of more brick walls and alley's than a season of "Law And Order".
The list goes on, so in the realm of almost medium format, especially on this forum it's far from stealth.
In 35mm land I don't think I've ever seen a representative of a camera company, or their dealers pushing a brand, a price, a sale, a seminar or a group hand holding get together. I don't think they have to.
Now in regards to me, well, let's see, I got a discount on a medium format back I returned, Nikon through NPS loaned me some stuff for a gig to test with and that's it. Everything else is paid for in cash . . . well Am-ex which is the same as cash. I have shot for a camera company, had my images run by various makers, but it was not a for profit situation and though flattering, is far from my intended market, because last time I checked, photographers don't pay me.
I know gwithf and the thought of him stealth marketing, or actually marketing anything but his photography would be like somebody telling me Sarah Palin and Nancy Pelosi are involved in heavy romance. It' would be interesting, but not pretty and obviously not natural.
BC
P.S. Christian. You mention that the image quality of your photos with a Canon is not as good as your Hasselblad. I know you believe what you say, but I'm curious what is "not as good", cause that covers a lot of territory.
P.S.S. I know Yair, like him, actually know that if he ran Leaf they probably would have bought Phase rather than the other way round, because Yair does something that no other camera rep I know does. He goes country to country, works next to the photographers, big names, small names, big projects, small projects, from start to finish and understands what is needed. He's bias, probably bleeds Leaf green, but he's honest and will go nose to nose with anyone. If Yair says he's gonna do it, set your watch because it will be done.
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P.S.S. I know Yair, like him, actually know that if he ran Leaf they probably would have bought Phase rather than the other way round, because Yair does something that no other camera rep I know does. He goes country to country, works next to the photographers, big names, small names, big projects, small projects, from start to finish and understands what is needed. He's bias, probably bleeds Leaf green, but he's honest and will go nose to nose with anyone. If Yair says he's gonna do it, set your watch because it will be done.
that's why I like Leaf, they seem more "true" to their customers than say phase or Sinar. not bashing P1 or Sinar, but when you have to "take it to your local P1 dealer" rather than getting on the phone with someone live, its a PITA if you ask me.
now I don't have the luxury of being able to own a digi back yet, of any flavor. hell, I don't even own a DSLR. I'm all film right now, with an RZ and a Hassy H2. they both work well, and I can shoot with a back on both of them, and that's what I intend to do some day soon. besides, Leaf makes an adapter plate to put H-mount backs on the RZ, so its even sweeter .
but yes, everything I've read about Yair, along with what the local dealers here in LA tell me confirms what you've just communicated.
thanks
that Aptus II-5 looks tempting though. and the price is really nice too
-Dan
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At times, I feel that this forum has stealth marketing written all over it.
And no, I will never buy a Canon camera again, because the IQ is not as good as my Hasselblad. It is as simple as that.
Their stealth must be switched off when I'm looking - brass ball busting marketing is rather what I'd call it; just about the only forum where the reps sign their name and grin and bear the rotten eggs that get tossed at them..
and ...
Never say never again.
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I'm not saying MFDB companies are doing stealth marketing, that would be quite ludicrous, with the same reasons you gave.
But I see another tendency's, and that is for example people pushing Canon as a better choice then MFDB. Very often users with little registered info about them selves, showing up with tests or reviews, or bold statements about Canon being equal in IQ compared to MFDB.
It just seems weird to me that sooo many Canon users have the energy to argue on "large sensor" photography forums, implying that 35mm has met the IQ standards of MFDB.
Furthermore, think about it, in a marketing perspective, you hit quite a bit of the target consumers/potential consumers of MFDB here in this forum. Therefore I totally understand why Canon would be interested in penetrating a forum like this with "hard facts" showing that 5d mk II is pulling equal with for example H3D-39.
Now, after saying this, I will probably be attacked with comments saying I'm taking this too far, or being silly coming with these accusations.
As a marketer myself, I would probably consider a similar "attack" if I was in a major DSLR company.
I'm just facing these threads/posts with a little bit of scepticism, but maybe that's just me.
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I think everyone here has a Canon or Nikon, and because they like their tools most own some MF - and they are basically complaining that the MF rig doesn't really pull its weight compared with the "cheap" C or N gear. I've been there. The N just takes images in every light, focused perfectly.
I have a feeling the guys posting here with strange names who used to post on RG with different names can take better pictures than me with any type of gear; I used to think the gear was what gave them the advantage - I've changed opinion since, and started going to drawing classes and museums again to learn how to see.
Edmund
I'm not saying MFDB companies are doing stealth marketing, that would be quite ludicrous, with the same reasons you gave.
But I see another tendency's, and that is for example people pushing Canon as a better choice then MFDB. Very often users with little registered info about them selves, showing up with tests or reviews, or bold statements about Canon being equal in IQ compared to MFDB.
It just seems weird to me that sooo many Canon users have the energy to argue on "large sensor" photography forums, implying that 35mm has met the IQ standards of MFDB.
Furthermore, think about it, in a marketing perspective, you hit quite a bit of the target consumers/potential consumers of MFDB here in this forum. Therefore I totally understand why Canon would be interested in penetrating a forum like this with "hard facts" showing that 5d mk II is pulling equal with for example H3D-39.
Now, after saying this, I will probably be attacked with comments saying I'm taking this too far, or being silly coming with these accusations.
As a marketer myself, I would probably consider a similar "attack" if I was in a major DSLR company.
I'm just facing these threads/posts with a little bit of scepticism, but maybe that's just me.
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I know and have met both and while they can be grumpy at times, they ain't old and are far from being muppets...
I so disagree. Both of these guys I call friends and they remind me exactly of Waldorf and Statler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M)
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I so disagree. Both of these guys I call friends and they remind me exactly of Waldorf and Statler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M)
LOL, they just creamed him!
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But I see another tendency's, and that is for example people pushing Canon as a better choice then MFDB. Very often users with little registered info about them selves, showing up with tests or reviews, or bold statements about Canon being equal in IQ compared to MFDB.
It's the great age of the internet, where everyone can become an expert from the comfort of their own armchair, despite knowing nowt about nowt. Why let lack of knowledge get in the way of an opinion. Truth is the enemy of creativity. (An exaggeration but not without truth.)
Incidentally, I do know first hand that behind the scenes marketing wonks from big name companies try to influence 'respected' forum posters. Then again, they have always had big name photographers using their gear, for free, or for payment. Caveat emptor.
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Incidentally, I do know first hand that behind the scenes marketing wonks from big name companies try to influence 'respected' forum posters. Then again, they have always had big name photographers using their gear, for free, or for payment. Caveat emptor.
I regularly meet with a Canon marketing rep. He gets me fast repairs and adjustments on what I own, and an occasional loaner of a body for testing or profiling.
I was in an MF dealer's the other day. He was explaining to the customer that his camera would need to stay away 6 weeks *longer* on top of a regular repair delay. Maybe MF guys need to do some stealth marketing too ?
BTW, I'm thinking of getting a back for my old V series Hassy's - anybody got any experience with the no-wires Hassy backs for those ?
Edmund
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I regularly meet with a Canon marketing rep. He gets me fast repairs and adjustments on what I own, and an occasional loaner of a body for testing or profiling.
I was in an MF dealer's the other day. He was explaining to the customer that his camera would need to stay away 6 weeks *longer* on top of a regular repair delay. Maybe MF guys need to do some stealth marketing too ?
BTW, I'm thinking of getting a back for my old V series Hassy's - anybody got any experience with the no-wires Hassy backs for those ?
Edmund
I get my mamiya 645 afd bodies repaired at Mac group in long island NY in about 4 days, amazing service. In england the same repair takes 6 weeks and costs about 5 times as much, bless them.
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I regularly meet with a Canon marketing rep. He gets me fast repairs and adjustments on what I own, and an occasional loaner of a body for testing or profiling.
I was in an MF dealer's the other day. He was explaining to the customer that his camera would need to stay away 6 weeks *longer* on top of a regular repair delay. Maybe MF guys need to do some stealth marketing too ?
BTW, I'm thinking of getting a back for my old V series Hassy's - anybody got any experience with the no-wires Hassy backs for those ?
Edmund
Hi Edmund,
This may help you.
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9881 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9881)
David
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A large majority of today's "higher end" camera consumers search the web for info before buying a Camera.
The reliability of camera-shop employees has dramaticely gone down. Customer are sceptic about the ways different camera-shops deal with the different brands. Questions like why a certain shop has a bigger in-store display for Canon then Nikon, or why for example Olympus is not as available in the shop like the major brands. All this ends up in a scepticism, and gives way for other sources of "reliable information".
The "new" digital camera age has pushed the market into a turn-over focused business where profit-margins is AO, where brand/distribution alliances and in-store distribution is a dominant way of survival.
This is off course not explicit for the camera industry, and has "awaken" the customer to face sellers with more scepticism.
"Independent" web and magazine reviews and forums has taken over the roll of distribution the "truth". The fact that there's no brand och corporate involvement in these sources insures and gives the customers of valid information and authenticity.
Therefore I understand why stealth marketing in forums like this hit the heart, and proves to be very effective when it comes to turning doubting customers into buying customers.
The examples above are not fictive, and illustrates how the "new customers" orientates in the market.
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Hi Edmund,
This may help you.
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9881 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9881)
David
Thx David.
BTW, how does one deal with focus adjustment to the individual camera?
Edmund
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Thx David.
BTW, how does one deal with focus adjustment to the individual camera?
Edmund
Les Victor in Paris should be able to help you with that. If you decide for a CFV then they can give your camera a health check and calibration.
They are opposite Hasselblad France in Passage Piver. Very nice Gentleman indeed...
5, Passage Piver
75011 Paris, France
+33 1 48 05 11 12
They carry out Hasselblad and Profoto servicing. A private company not owned by Hasselblad.
David