Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: duraace on October 04, 2009, 09:59:03 pm

Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 04, 2009, 09:59:03 pm
I've experience a reproducible defect in images taken at long exposure using other than minimal or maximum f stops on this lens.  The same effect was experienced on multiple 24mm-70mm lenses, on more than one camera.  The image has an overexposed area around the top left third portion of the long exposure image.  This defect was not experienced on other Nikon lenses (eg. 50mm f1.f and 105mm VR lens( What is this??
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Jonathan Ratzlaff on October 04, 2009, 11:03:08 pm
Please post an example.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 05, 2009, 12:08:20 am
Quote from: Jonathan Ratzlaff
Please post an example.
Didn't saved any. It was a course and the instructor's lens.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: John Camp on October 05, 2009, 01:04:29 am
Well, what were the settings, and how long was the exposure?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Rob C on October 05, 2009, 04:55:41 am
With that lens, nothing would surprise me. As I posted here some time ago, my own new example went away after the first proper, realistic test. It didn't produce strange effects, just awful softness at the wider end of both focal length and aperture, defeating the purpose of it as a lens change-saving option for outdoor photography.

Having said that, it was only the second Nikkor in my life that proved poor, the other being a 1.8/85 of many years ago.

Rob C
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: PeterAit on October 05, 2009, 09:54:41 am
Quote from: duraace
I've experience a reproducible defect in images taken at long exposure using other than minimal or maximum f stops on this lens.  The same effect was experienced on multiple 24mm-70mm lenses, on more than one camera.  The image has an overexposed area around the top left third portion of the long exposure image.  This defect was not experienced on other Nikon lenses (eg. 50mm f1.f and 105mm VR lens( What is this??

The only cause I can think of is that the lens is letting a very small amount of light leak in, so small that it does not show up except with really long exposures. You might try wrapping the entire lens barrel with foil or some other light-proof material. Or, completely block the front opening (the lens cap is not enough) and try a long exposure.

Peter
www.peteraitken.com
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 05, 2009, 11:46:38 am
Well .. I don't own the lens, but always thought it was one of the best; however, now I won't consider it because it is flawed.  It only occurs at exposures of 2 minutes or more, and in the middle f stops.  Doesn't occur at 24mm or 70mm extremes. Otherwise, the visual defect (overexposure) is very noticeable and can't be fixed in post.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: PeterAit on October 05, 2009, 06:18:35 pm
Quote from: duraace
Well .. I don't own the lens, but always thought it was one of the best; however, now I won't consider it because it is flawed.  It only occurs at exposures of 2 minutes or more, and in the middle f stops.  Doesn't occur at 24mm or 70mm extremes. Otherwise, the visual defect (overexposure) is very noticeable and can't be fixed in post.

It is one of the best! 2 minute exposures are very unusual, and this problem is irrelevant for 99.9% of photographers who would benefit from the lens's outstanding optical qualities. But, if you need 2 min exposures, it's not for you.

Peter
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 05, 2009, 06:35:01 pm
99.9% seems a bit opptomistic. It cuts out a whole category of fine art print images; specifically, B&W landscape long exposures ala Michael Kenna ( http://www.michaelkenna.net/index2.php?PHP...b9d1b46b331ca5e (http://www.michaelkenna.net/index2.php?PHPSESSID=55560fafc154195a2b9d1b46b331ca5e) ), etc., which cater to wide angle. None of the other Nikon lenses exhibit this. I think Nikon should take a look at this, just like they did with the 70mm to 200mm on the D3 / D700 full frame senors.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: grepmat on October 06, 2009, 12:35:47 am
One guy, who doesn't own the lens and has no images to show, claims some weird effect that occurs only during long exposures, and we should dismiss the lens as a flawed design? Get real.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Rob C on October 06, 2009, 04:19:49 am
Quote from: grepmat
One guy, who doesn't own the lens and has no images to show, claims some weird effect that occurs only during long exposures, and we should dismiss the lens as a flawed design? Get real.



Not quite so fast: I posted about my own problems with that lens too, and I have owned and earned my living with top-line Nikkors and Nikons since the 1960s. Mine was a friggin' lemon too, and damn expensive to boot.

Shit does happen and at those prices I give no second-chances to the same product.

As Chuck Berry famously said: don't let the same dog bite you twice.

Rob C
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 06, 2009, 06:12:15 pm
That's bad news,as I just bought one.Hopefully mine is not a lemon.
I do find it hard to believe,especially that this lens is rated as the best 27-70 zoom out-there.
Not that I have any desire in doing 2 minute exposures as a test.

We will see,

Cheers,
Willem.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Plekto on October 06, 2009, 06:51:38 pm
Quote from: PeterAit
The only cause I can think of is that the lens is letting a very small amount of light leak in, so small that it does not show up except with really long exposures.

This also occurred to me.  It might be also that one of the metal aperture blades is slightly bent or leaking light, so that when it's rotated to a certain position/f-stop, it's causing the light to "leak".  Wide open, it's probably obscured by the overall haze that would occur, and at minimum, there's probably enough overlap from other blades to cover the defect.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 06, 2009, 08:37:14 pm
Quote from: Plekto
This also occurred to me.  It might be also that one of the metal aperture blades is slightly bent or leaking light, so that when it's rotated to a certain position/f-stop, it's causing the light to "leak".  Wide open, it's probably obscured by the overall haze that would occur, and at minimum, there's probably enough overlap from other blades to cover the defect.

No.  You missed one of the points.  It's a design defect, because the exact same flaw was experienced across the same lens across several other people.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Slough on October 07, 2009, 08:26:27 am
Quote from: duraace
No.  You missed one of the points.  It's a design defect, because the exact same flaw was experienced across the same lens across several other people.

Really? Who are these other people that you did not mention earlier, and can we have some proof in the form of an image? Or are we talking about a friend of a friend who met someone while out walking his dog who mentioned that the local village idiot's half brother might once have observed something similar?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 07, 2009, 12:00:10 pm
Quote from: Slough
Really? Who are these other people that you did not mention earlier, and can we have some proof in the form of an image? Or are we talking about a friend of a friend who met someone while out walking his dog who mentioned that the local village idiot's half brother might once have observed something similar?


The proof available is taking a 2 minute exposure at around 50 mm.  You'll need a 10 or 16 stop ND at around f11.  Otherwise, I don't have an image and I'm not buying this lens.  See ya.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 07, 2009, 04:33:36 pm
Pardon me,on wich Nikon DSLR was this test done?

Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 07, 2009, 04:57:43 pm
Quote from: rethmeier
Pardon me,on wich Nikon DSLR was this test done?

My DSLR is a D700, but other models had the same effect. D300, D200.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 07, 2009, 05:11:21 pm
I will try it with my D3x.Could be an issue with the sensor of the D300 or D200 or D700 ?

Not many sensors like 2 minute exposures.

Cheers,

Willem.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: NashvilleMike on October 11, 2009, 11:21:26 pm
Quote from: duraace
The proof available is taking a 2 minute exposure at around 50 mm.  You'll need a 10 or 16 stop ND at around f11.  Otherwise, I don't have an image and I'm not buying this lens.  See ya.

I tried your scenario on my 24-70 on a D300, without an ND filter (sorry, I've never needed a 10 stop ND filter so I don't have one lying around the shop) , at 50mm; one exposure was 2 minutes at F/11, the other test was 4 minutes at F/10. In addition, when I was at Bryce Canyon recently I ran some 8 minute exposures in the middle focal length ranges around F/5.6. In none of these cases did I notice any "overexposure" problem you speak of.

Since you're unable to provide an example, and haven't given us a complete break down of the shooting situation, there's not a lot any of us can really offer. I'm thinking, off the cuff here because of lack of information/example, that if you're using a filter perhaps you've got an issue with the synergy between the lens and filter more than just the lens itself. But without a more concrete example we're, pardon the expression, shooting in the dark here.

To be serious - while I'm not discounting that you saw what you saw, if it is a "design defect", it's not affecting even remotely the same percentage of the lenses ownership as, say, the FF issues with the original 70-200/2.8 VR lens. No lens is perfect, but your scenario, that I can't duplicate, IS pretty rare and I don't think it's going to be a major stumbling block for most purchasers of this lens (which IMO, while having issues at the wide end, is excellent from 28-70mm and competitive with anything out there in that range).


-m
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 12, 2009, 01:31:32 am
Quote from: NashvilleMike
I tried your scenario on my 24-70 on a D300, without an ND filter (sorry, I've never needed a 10 stop ND filter so I don't have one lying around the shop) , at 50mm; one exposure was 2 minutes at F/11, the other test was 4 minutes at F/10. In addition, when I was at Bryce Canyon recently I ran some 8 minute exposures in the middle focal length ranges around F/5.6. In none of these cases did I notice any "overexposure" problem you speak of.

Since you're unable to provide an example, and haven't given us a complete break down of the shooting situation, there's not a lot any of us can really offer. I'm thinking, off the cuff here because of lack of information/example, that if you're using a filter perhaps you've got an issue with the synergy between the lens and filter more than just the lens itself. But without a more concrete example we're, pardon the expression, shooting in the dark here.

To be serious - while I'm not discounting that you saw what you saw, if it is a "design defect", it's not affecting even remotely the same percentage of the lenses ownership as, say, the FF issues with the original 70-200/2.8 VR lens. No lens is perfect, but your scenario, that I can't duplicate, IS pretty rare and I don't think it's going to be a major stumbling block for most purchasers of this lens (which IMO, while having issues at the wide end, is excellent from 28-70mm and competitive with anything out there in that range).


-m


Well ... it has to be done in broad daylight, so an strong ND filter is necessary.  You didn't reproduce the scenario.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: NashvilleMike on October 12, 2009, 10:55:47 am
Quote from: duraace
Well ... it has to be done in broad daylight, so an strong ND filter is necessary.  You didn't reproduce the scenario.

Hmmm. Sounds more like light leakage at specific points in the zoom mechanism I'd say.

Frankly, that's a pretty rare scenario and I think Nikon has bigger fish to fry than to address that one, but that's just me.

The lens, while fine for 99+ % of the photographers, isn't for you, no problem there. All lenses are compromises.

A little tip for you though - you might want to revisit and evaluate the tone of your replies in your replies to this thread. Typically if you're going to ask a question about a specific scenario, if you can't provide a sample image (and I can understand that's not always possible), at least describe your scenario in detail. In your original post, you made no mention that the shot had to be done with a 10+ stop ND filter in bright daylight, and in your replies to those who challenged you to provide more info, you came off like a jerk. Lots of people here are willing to help, but if you come off like a donkey, well, can't help you much.

-m
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Downtown on October 14, 2009, 03:08:17 am
Quote
"Really? Who are these other people that you did not mention earlier, and can we have some proof in the form of an image? Or are we talking about a friend of a friend who met someone while out walking his dog who mentioned that the local village idiot's half brother might once have observed something similar?"


Well this is my first post and maybe I should change my handle to the Village Idiot's half brother. I'm not here to flame anyone but I myself have encountered the same problem with this lens. My problems occur usually with the lens set between the focal lengths of  35mm and 50mm during daytime shots with B&W ND 10 & 6 filters attached and exposure times of 2 - 6 minutes. The flaw looks similar to lens flare and was intially pointed out to me by an instructor who taught the technique. Both the instructor and I both had the same camera's (D-3's) and the same len's (24-70mm) and the same problem! I myself complained to Nikon who looked into the problem to never provide me with an explanation after providing photo's, data, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. If I would have known this when I intially purchased the lens I might have chosen the 17-35mm instead. Now I don't want you to feel sorry for me having the 24 - 70mm lens but when you patiently wait for 2 - 7 minute exposures to only have disappointment caused by your equipment it is FRUSTRATING.  If you'd like more examples I'd be more than happy to supply them.    

 [attachment=17189:BMP_0034.JPG]    ISO200, Exposure time of 81.2 Sec,  f/11 at 45mm
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 14, 2009, 06:26:53 pm
Well,the good news is that if someones want to take super long exposures NOT to use this lens!
I would suggest a prime instead.Just pack a 35 and a 50 for those arty shots.
Thanks for the warning,I'll will try it myself a.s.a.p.
Best,
Willem.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 15, 2009, 10:06:11 pm
Quote from: rethmeier
Well,the good news is that if someones want to take super long exposures NOT to use this lens!
I would suggest a prime instead.Just pack a 35 and a 50 for those arty shots.
Thanks for the warning,I'll will try it myself a.s.a.p.
Best,
Willem.

I had considered getting the 24-70 for the wide angle long exposure, but was given a heads up about this problem on a course. The instructor loaned me his 24-70 with the warning about the middle focal lengths, and said the same defect was present in his students lenses.  I've since purchased the 20mm f2 for the wind angle and coupled with the 50mm, I have all I need. I won't, however, spend 2k on a lens that doesn't work at all settings. Long exposures are not a misuse of the camera.  It's designed to do them.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Slough on October 16, 2009, 05:19:36 am
Quote from: Downtown
Well this is my first post and maybe I should change my handle to the Village Idiot's half brother. I'm not here to flame anyone but I myself have encountered the same problem with this lens. My problems occur usually with the lens set between the focal lengths of  35mm and 50mm during daytime shots with B&W ND 10 & 6 filters attached and exposure times of 2 - 6 minutes. The flaw looks similar to lens flare and was intially pointed out to me by an instructor who taught the technique. Both the instructor and I both had the same camera's (D-3's) and the same len's (24-70mm) and the same problem! I myself complained to Nikon who looked into the problem to never provide me with an explanation after providing photo's, data, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. If I would have known this when I intially purchased the lens I might have chosen the 17-35mm instead. Now I don't want you to feel sorry for me having the 24 - 70mm lens but when you patiently wait for 2 - 7 minute exposures to only have disappointment caused by your equipment it is FRUSTRATING.  If you'd like more examples I'd be more than happy to supply them.    

 [attachment=17189:BMP_0034.JPG]    ISO200, Exposure time of 81.2 Sec,  f/11 at 45mm

Well if you had met my half brother, you might think that I quality for the title of village idiot's half brother. But yes, you have demonstrated the problem. Personally I would consider the lens faulty (assuming it is light leakage and not flare) and would demand a refund or repair.

I don't see why this should occur only with an ND filter and a long exposure, since all the filter does is to reduce the intensity of the light through the front element. You should see the same issue without the filter. The only difference is the length of the exposure (same total amount of light), and possibly the way the shutter moves. For short exposures the two blades will traverse the sensor during the exposure, but I don't see how that is relevant. So that suggests that you might have light leakage from the sides of the lens e.g. light enters the housing and bounces around inside. The way to check for that is to repeat the exposure but with the lens cap on. It is also possible you have a leak in the camera, but since you say it only occurs at certain focal lengths, that kind of rules that one out. If the light does not originate from the sides of the lens, then I am baffled (no pun intended, although it is one of my better ones).
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Rob C on October 16, 2009, 05:28:17 am
Quote from: duraace
I had considered getting the 24-70 for the wide angle long exposure, but was given a heads up about this problem on a course. The instructor loaned me his 24-70 with the warning about the middle focal lengths, and said the same defect was present in his students lenses.  I've since purchased the 20mm f2 for the wind angle and coupled with the 50mm, I have all I need. I won't, however, spend 2k on a lens that doesn't work at all settings. Long exposures are not a misuse of the camera.  It's designed to do them.




You are absolutely right. And I would extend that to cover all the focal lengths included in the particular optic - otherwise, it is misrepresentation. Why should it have become the norm that people accept that the wider end of a zoom might suck but that the middle and longer parts will be okay? If the damn thing doesn't work at the wide, then make it less of a range for the formula to cope with and stop conning people. It is only because buyers are too reluctant to kick ass that manufacturers get away with shoddy treatment, goods and design.

It has been suggested that people buy several copies of the same lens and keep doing so until they find a good one. This strikes me as ludicrous. Also as most impracticable unless you are a marvellous customer in a huge city. I had problems enough getting rid of my 24-70mm zoom, never mind having the guy produce another one that would possibly have had the same passage through life!

And why should anyone have to face such a mad situation in the first place? It was suggested that better pre-delivery inspections would cost more; if that produces certainty, then that would be fine by me. Would one more inspection step cost more than the time and emotional stress of having bought a two thousand bucks lemon?

Rob C
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: JeffKohn on October 16, 2009, 01:15:31 pm
Quote
I don't see why this should occur only with an ND filter and a long exposure,
It makes perfect sense if it's a very small light leak. You need a long enough exposure in bright light for enough light to leak in to be noticeable, and the only way of getting such an exposure is with a very strong ND filter.

I don't consider the lens fatally flawed because of this, though. If you do a lot of multi-minute exposures in daylight it's a problem, but that's a pretty extreme corner case that's not going to affect very many people. I've certainly never noticed anything like this in my shots, and I've been using the lens since its initial release.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: hilljf on October 16, 2009, 10:01:28 pm
never mind....
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 17, 2009, 01:57:40 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn
..., but that's a pretty extreme corner case that's not going to affect very many people. I've certainly never noticed anything like this in my shots, and I've been using the lens since its initial release.

Long exposures in daylight is not a misuse of the camera, but a tool in achieving an artistic look in the image.  It was done in the film days, and is doable in digital.  The 24-70mm lens can't do it in the middle focal lengths, while all other lenses can.  I'm voting with my pocket, when I avoid this lens.  Prospective buyers of this lens should have access to any and all information pertaining to it's performance.  As a buyer, if you can say you don't care about long exposures, and never will as long as you own this lens, then fine, buy it.  As the manufacturer, Nikon, if they can say they don't care what the consumer thinks about a reproducible aberration in their top of the line 24mm-70mm  lens, then they can choose to keep manufacturing and selling a lens that doesn't work at all controlled camera exposures.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Slough on October 17, 2009, 02:45:00 pm
Wht don't you try and isolate the cause of the problem as I suggested? If the leak is from the side (it surely must be), then a makeshift sleeve will fix it. Not elegant, but something tells me this is a slow style of shooting. (Yes I know a lens of this price should not need a sleeve, if that is indeed the solution, but that's life.)
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 17, 2009, 05:24:10 pm
Quote from: Slough
Wht don't you try and isolate the cause of the problem as I suggested? If the leak is from the side (it surely must be), then a makeshift sleeve will fix it. Not elegant, but something tells me this is a slow style of shooting. (Yes I know a lens of this price should not need a sleeve, if that is indeed the solution, but that's life.)

I don't own the lens. I had one to try out. The defect prevents me from investing in one. Perhaps someone with one and an ND 10 filter can do the test, in daylight.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 17, 2009, 07:00:07 pm
I have to admit with Duraace,that that sort of $,you should get a perfect product.

I haven't been able to re-produce the fault myself,but I'll  let you know when.

I still can't believe this lens is getting such a bad rap from some ex-users.

To my knowledge it's the best 24-70 zoom out there.

Certainly better than Canon's,but even that one,got some dislikers etc.

At the end of the day,a good prime is still superior than any zoom.

However, I was lend to believe that the Nikon 24-70 was the nearest to any prime.

Happy shooting,

Cheers,
Willem.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: JeffKohn on October 18, 2009, 12:28:55 am
Quote
Long exposures in daylight is not a misuse of the camera, but a tool in achieving an artistic look in the image. It was done in the film days, and is doable in digital.
I never said it was misuse of the camera. But if I understand the above posts correctly, it requires an exposure of 2+ minutes in sunlight (not nighttime exposures). For people who do such things, certainly it sounds like this would be a lens to avoid. But for a whole lot of people this will be a non-issue. That's all I was saying.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Dustbak on October 18, 2009, 11:35:33 am
I have attached 2 shots. 1 with a single ND4 (13stops) and another with a ND3 (10stops) + ND4. The single ND filter shot was at f11/4minutes/ISO100 (less DR). The double filter shot was kind of a wild guess. Exposure was 62minutes (but should have been double) and without NR (I did not want to wait for 2 hours to get the shot and having my doors open (it is cold here). Both images have been shot at 50mm.

Now, on the 4 minutes shot I cannot see anything. On the 1hour shot it doesn't look pretty but I am quite sure I can improve that (using the Lee shade which I don't currently have for instance).

Images have been downsized and besides a little bit of sharpening no other adjustments or post-processing has taken place.

My lens doesn't exhibit the problems mentioned in this thread. Even the 1 hour shot doesn't as far as I am concerned. A bit more careful execution (and turning on the NR) will significantly improve that image. It doesn't show any light leakage or something like that.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: grepmat on October 18, 2009, 02:26:57 pm
This topic reminds me of the old, endless diatribes that go something like this:

"The SUX-2000 camera has banding/hot pixels/etc. when I take an hour-long exposure at ISO 128,000 of a bat in a belfry! Banding! Can you believe it? The SUX-2000 is junk! I'm not going to buy one, and neither should anyone else! I'm going to make 100 posts on 10 forums so no one else buys it either!"

People, every product has limitations and corners of operation where caution is required. Very long exposures in bright light, quite possibly facing towards the sun, while wearing nearly-opaque 12-stop ND filters is by almost any account an unusual and, in my opinion, extreme condition.

It's not like flare of one sort or another (if it's that, and if it's the lens and not the stacked rings, etc.) is a totally unknown problem or unacceptable flaw that results in the utter rejection of a lens either. Most people accept that flare happens from time to time. If the effect is real and repeatable and proven to be the lens, the answer may very well be "in those 1 out of 10,000 tasks, use a less complex lens like a 50mm."

It is not reasonable to expect any product, at any price, to be absolutely perfect in every way, no matter how extreme the test. A problem such as this, if real, does not make the lens fatally flawed any more than any other product that doesn't turn you into the next Ansel Adams or cure "manhood problems" during use, etc.

I have this lens, and it's magnificent. If you reject yours as unacceptably flawed, well, good luck finding an acceptable spouse...
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 18, 2009, 06:03:29 pm
good luck finding an acceptable spouse...


Priceless!
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 19, 2009, 01:43:02 pm
Quote from: Dustbak
I have attached 2 shots. 1 with a single ND4 (13stops) and another with a ND3 (10stops) + ND4. The single ND filter shot was at f11/4minutes/ISO100 (less DR). The double filter shot was kind of a wild guess. Exposure was 62minutes (but should have been double) and without NR (I did not want to wait for 2 hours to get the shot and having my doors open (it is cold here). Both images have been shot at 50mm.

Now, on the 4 minutes shot I cannot see anything. On the 1hour shot it doesn't look pretty but I am quite sure I can improve that (using the Lee shade which I don't currently have for instance).

Images have been downsized and besides a little bit of sharpening no other adjustments or post-processing has taken place.

My lens doesn't exhibit the problems mentioned in this thread. Even the 1 hour shot doesn't as far as I am concerned. A bit more careful execution (and turning on the NR) will significantly improve that image. It doesn't show any light leakage or something like that.

I'm very interested in this.  Sounds like maybe a bad lot thing with the lens.  I think I'll go to the store and try the test with their lens, in the store.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 19, 2009, 01:44:39 pm
Quote from: Dustbak
I have attached 2 shots. 1 with a single ND4 (13stops) and another with a ND3 (10stops) + ND4. The single ND filter shot was at f11/4minutes/ISO100 (less DR). The double filter shot was kind of a wild guess. Exposure was 62minutes (but should have been double) and without NR (I did not want to wait for 2 hours to get the shot and having my doors open (it is cold here). Both images have been shot at 50mm.

Now, on the 4 minutes shot I cannot see anything. On the 1hour shot it doesn't look pretty but I am quite sure I can improve that (using the Lee shade which I don't currently have for instance).

Images have been downsized and besides a little bit of sharpening no other adjustments or post-processing has taken place.

My lens doesn't exhibit the problems mentioned in this thread. Even the 1 hour shot doesn't as far as I am concerned. A bit more careful execution (and turning on the NR) will significantly improve that image. It doesn't show any light leakage or something like that.


Could you confirm the settings for these shots?  Focal length, especially?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: SeanBK on October 19, 2009, 02:23:56 pm
Based on my gut feeling & "Dustback"'s posted image, that what "Downtown" & "Duraace" seen is the aberration due to such a long exposure AND bright sun light shining on the lens. This may have caused the light to enter from front. Nikon may be rejecting their claim as  flawed filter connection to the barrel. We also are not made aware that adequate precautions were taken i.e. lens shade and umbrella to shade the camera/lens. So we do not know how resultant flare is interpreted by the sensor.
  As I said this is just my guess no better than theirs that all 24-70 are flawed.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Dustbak on October 19, 2009, 04:05:38 pm
Quote from: duraace
Could you confirm the settings for these shots?  Focal length, especially?


image 1)
Focal length 50mm
ISO100
4minutes (240sec) exposure
f11
NR on

image 2)
Focal length 50mm
ISO200
64minutes (3840sec) exposure
f8
NR off!
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 19, 2009, 04:33:11 pm
Dustbak,
was the sun hitting the camera and lens?
The problem is I think and others have said this,that light is seeping in from the outside of the lens.
Not trough the front.
As soon as I'm getting my ND filters,I'll try it myself.

Cheers,

Willem.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Dustbak on October 19, 2009, 05:27:14 pm
I took this around 4PM with the sun on the side (left side) of the lens. Not much sun since I was shooting from the floor of my space through the doors (so I could stay in and remain warm ). I can repeat it one of this days with the sun directly hitting the equipment but if there is a real leak it would have been apparent after exposing for over an hour.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 19, 2009, 05:33:27 pm
Dustbak,
leuke dakpannetjes!
It's obvious now that the problems is with light entering trough the side of the lens.
In direct sunlight only.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 19, 2009, 05:34:18 pm
Quote from: Dustbak
I took this around 4PM with the sun on the side (left side) of the lens. Not much sun since I was shooting from the floor of my space through the doors (so I could stay in and remain warm ). I can repeat it one of this days with the sun directly hitting the equipment but if there is a real leak it would have been apparent after exposing for over an hour.

I'm encouraged by this. Looks like a case of a bad batch. I will try do a test with a new one, from a local store.
What was the camera?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: NashvilleMike on October 19, 2009, 07:53:45 pm
I've reproduced the problem to some extent and I think I've determined the cause and a solution.

Details:

First off, I don't have a 10 stop ND filter - sorry guys, I'm not dropping 100$ just to do this test and then watch the filter collect dust on the shelf since I have absolutely zero use for such a thing, but I do have a lens cap....

I have always thought the problem might be a light leak, so my test setup was as follows:

D300 on tripod/ballhead, set in landscape position
24-70/2.8 lens set at F/9 and 50mm
ISO 125
long NR set to "on"
Shutter set to bulb
remote release timed exposure of 4 minutes

Instead of a 10 stop ND, I put the lens cap on the lens and put the lens hood on the lens as I normally would.

Took a 250 w/s Dynalite strobe I had lying around, mounted it so the unit aimed down at approximately 40 degrees straight on into the lens/camera.
Center of flash tube was 3 feet from focal plane of lens/body.
Set the monolite at 250 w/s and turned the modeling light on full.
Ambient light reading at that distance for that ISO was 1/250 at F/16, which emulates strong daylight.
In addition, during the 4 minute exposure I fired the strobe at full power (250 w/s) 30 (yes, thirty) times, which I do believe is considerably brighter than any daylight exposure you're ever likely to encounter on this planet.

My first frame showed a narrow horizontal area along the top left edge of light leak/flare - from the left edge to maybe 1/4 to 1/3 inwards. Not very tall, perhaps 3/8 of an inch on the back LCD screen. The rest of the frame was pitch black.

I then redid the test with just the ambient light from the modeling light (did not hit the strobe 30 times at full power) and got a weaker version of the above.

I then covered the lens barrel with a dark washcloth and repeated the first test (4 minutes ambient, 30 hits with the strobe): result: pure black frame.

Then I removed the dark washcloth and covered the plastic cover over the distance display on the top of the lens barrel with a double folded piece of gaffers tape and redid the same test (4 minutes ambient, 30 hits with the strobe). Result: no flare, pure black frame.

Obviously while I can't exactly reproduce the ND filter scenario, I'm deducing that there is a light leak around that plastic distance display in these conditions that's causing the problem.

While nothing I say will make the 24-70 haters ever like this lens, I would say if you want to do this sort of long exposure/daylight shooting, I'm betting a double layer of black masking tape over the plastic distance scale would solve the problem.

Hope this helps....
(and perhaps someone can also verify my test to see if they come up with the same thing)

-m

ps: I apologize for not providing samples: I don't have a hosting site at the moment.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 19, 2009, 08:26:27 pm
Looks like you've solved the problem NashvilleMike!
Well done!

All we need is to cover the distance scale,which I never look at anyway.

Phew,

Best Willem.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 19, 2009, 08:51:50 pm
Quote from: NashvilleMike
I've reproduced the problem to some extent and I think I've determined the cause and a solution.

Details:

First off, I don't have a 10 stop ND filter - sorry guys, I'm not dropping 100$ just to do this test and then watch the filter collect dust on the shelf since I have absolutely zero use for such a thing, but I do have a lens cap....

I have always thought the problem might be a light leak, so my test setup was as follows:

D300 on tripod/ballhead, set in landscape position
24-70/2.8 lens set at F/9 and 50mm
ISO 125
long NR set to "on"
Shutter set to bulb
remote release timed exposure of 4 minutes

Instead of a 10 stop ND, I put the lens cap on the lens and put the lens hood on the lens as I normally would.

Took a 250 w/s Dynalite strobe I had lying around, mounted it so the unit aimed down at approximately 40 degrees straight on into the lens/camera.
Center of flash tube was 3 feet from focal plane of lens/body.
Set the monolite at 250 w/s and turned the modeling light on full.
Ambient light reading at that distance for that ISO was 1/250 at F/16, which emulates strong daylight.
In addition, during the 4 minute exposure I fired the strobe at full power (250 w/s) 30 (yes, thirty) times, which I do believe is considerably brighter than any daylight exposure you're ever likely to encounter on this planet.

My first frame showed a narrow horizontal area along the top left edge of light leak/flare - from the left edge to maybe 1/4 to 1/3 inwards. Not very tall, perhaps 3/8 of an inch on the back LCD screen. The rest of the frame was pitch black.

I then redid the test with just the ambient light from the modeling light (did not hit the strobe 30 times at full power) and got a weaker version of the above.

I then covered the lens barrel with a dark washcloth and repeated the first test (4 minutes ambient, 30 hits with the strobe): result: pure black frame.

Then I removed the dark washcloth and covered the plastic cover over the distance display on the top of the lens barrel with a double folded piece of gaffers tape and redid the same test (4 minutes ambient, 30 hits with the strobe). Result: no flare, pure black frame.

Obviously while I can't exactly reproduce the ND filter scenario, I'm deducing that there is a light leak around that plastic distance display in these conditions that's causing the problem.

While nothing I say will make the 24-70 haters ever like this lens, I would say if you want to do this sort of long exposure/daylight shooting, I'm betting a double layer of black masking tape over the plastic distance scale would solve the problem.

Hope this helps....
(and perhaps someone can also verify my test to see if they come up with the same thing)

-m

ps: I apologize for not providing samples: I don't have a hosting site at the moment.


Apparently the problem doesn't show up at the extreme lengths (i.e. 24mm and 70mm).  Does this make sense given your deduction re: the plastic distance display leak?  The same test at those settings would be interesting.  Are the frames still pure black?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 19, 2009, 08:56:21 pm
I suspect that the difference in settings like 24 or at 70,the internal movements will not reproduce the same.That's why the issue is only at midrange at 50.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: JeffKohn on October 19, 2009, 08:57:35 pm
Quote from: rethmeier
I suspect that the difference in settings like 24 or at 70,the internal movements will not reproduce the same.That's why the issue is only at midrange at 50.
I agree. The 24-70 has an 'inner barrel' that extends/retracts depending on the focal length, so it could be that it depends on the internal position of various elements of the lens.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: NashvilleMike on October 19, 2009, 09:06:54 pm
Quote from: duraace
Apparently the problem doesn't show up at the extreme lengths (i.e. 24mm and 70mm).  Does this make sense given your deduction re: the plastic distance display leak?  The same test at those settings would be interesting.  Are the frames still pure black?

I accidentally ran the test first at slightly less than 28mm before remembering that you had experienced the problem at 50mm, and at that slightly less than 28mm setting, no, I did not have the flare problem with the lens barrel uncovered. I didn't check at 70mm. I've got to move on to other things (have a ton of stuff in the retouching/post processing queue that needs to be addressed) so my testing for the week is complete; hopefully I've given other folks enough that they can continue and confirm or deny my results if they wish. I'm reasonably comfortable saying that the plastic window is the culprit.

The 24-70 zoom does have a set of elements internally that move back and forth depending on focal length and it's in the middle focal length ranges that something appears to be "in the middle of things" in terms of where that moving group is, and I suspect that's why we're only seeing it in the middle focal length ranges.

-m
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Downtown on October 19, 2009, 10:01:05 pm
Quote from: duraace
Apparently the problem doesn't show up at the extreme lengths (i.e. 24mm and 70mm).  Does this make sense given your deduction re: the plastic distance display leak?  The same test at those settings would be interesting.  Are the frames still pure black?


What a team effort! A special thanks to Nasville Mike for coming up with the apparent fix and Duraace for stepping up and telling everyone of the problem! I myself ran tests late today as suggested by members who were reading this thread. I set up my camera as I did previously changing nothing but the focal lengths to see where the problem is most evident. With lens cap on the same problem persisted at  40 - 42mm as evidenced below. If someone has more time than me I'm sure they can find out if it's from 40 - 50mm or ???. After reading Nashville Mike's latest CSI detective work I went back out and tried the same test shots again this time wrapping black electricians tape around the M/A / M area and the plastic distance finder. The result ...............no flare or sign of problem! Now if you don't remember I complained to Nikon Canada and had a service rep  put me through the grinder emailing him test shots and explaining exactly what I was doing only to be told he had no idea what was wrong. Encouraged by members who thought that Nikon in fact should replace or repair these lenses I pulled out the case that the lens originally came in (along with reciept) and printed out test examples of the shots showing the problem and was ready to send it off to the repair centre in Richmond B.C. That being said do you think this is an isolated problem or an inherent problem to the 24 - 70 lens? My current thoughts now are that rather than send my lens away for 2 weeks I'll just carry a .99 cent roll of electricians tape as a quick fix and think of CSI Nashville Mike while I wait out my long exposure!



Cheers!
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 20, 2009, 02:06:16 am
Excellent test Downtown!
Looks like we found a solution for the problem.

Now shall we test the 14-24 and the new 70-200 as well?
Or any other Nikon Zoom for that matter?

The 14-24 @19 and the 70-200 @ 135 ?

I guess the issue is that all these zooms were designed for normal use,like max 30 secs and average day use at 125th of higher.

Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Rob C on October 20, 2009, 03:52:26 am
Quote from: rethmeier
Excellent test Downtown!
Looks like we found a solution for the problem.

Now shall we test the 14-24 and the new 70-200 as well?
Or any other Nikon Zoom for that matter?

The 14-24 @19 and the 70-200 @ 135 ?

I guess the issue is that all these zooms were designed for normal use,like max 30 secs and average day use at 125th of higher.




That might be a useful point of view to hand to Nikon Inc. for their Defense Department, but hardly washes with anybody who has bought the thing. That Nkon can market a lens with a built-in light leak is beyond belief.

Just as bad was the lousy definition at the side of the frame at the wide end on the sample that I had bought.

As for abandoning depth of field scales...

I don't think it's a matter of 'haters' as someone wrote, but of annoyed and very disappointed career-long Nikonistas!

Rob C
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Slough on October 20, 2009, 04:51:02 am
Quote from: Downtown
What a team effort! A special thanks to Nasville Mike for coming up with the apparent fix and Duraace for stepping up and telling everyone of the problem!

I seem to recall both suggesting the probable cause (light leakage from the side) and a possible fix i.e. a sleeve. I am slightly surprised that the lens is not adequately baffled.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 20, 2009, 05:14:09 am
Rob C!
Chill baby CHILL!
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 20, 2009, 05:22:17 am
Again,
I can't believe all this!
I'm sure we can find faults with every piece of gear we own under extreme conditions.

If I was a lens designer for Nikon and designing a zoom lens,I would design it for an alternative for a prime.

Maybe RobC should become a lens designer(LOL)
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Rob C on October 20, 2009, 10:38:21 am
Quote from: rethmeier
Maybe RobC should become a lens designer(LOL)




What a ridiculous stance! So you should be a pilot ever time you fly; be a doctor every time you need to pop a pill... right?

What you are saying, then, is that lousy design and/or product control is an acceptable thing, nay, possibly even a policy for such expensive goods?

Trouble is, the more that people express this view then the more the manufacturers become aware that they can get away with it. Thanks for your help to photographers at large!

Rob C
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 20, 2009, 12:27:54 pm
Quote from: Rob C
What a ridiculous stance! So you should be a pilot ever time you fly; be a doctor every time you need to pop a pill... right?

What you are saying, then, is that lousy design and/or product control is an acceptable thing, nay, possibly even a policy for such expensive goods?

Trouble is, the more that people express this view then the more the manufacturers become aware that they can get away with it. Thanks for your help to photographers at large!

Rob C

Being relatively new to photography, I'm curious to know whether long exposure techniques are a new practice, or have lenses been expected to do this since the film days? My guess is that the abberation with the 24-70 lens is limited to that lens only. It would be really interesting to know if it is present in the 70-200? Anyone?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: NashvilleMike on October 20, 2009, 01:14:59 pm
Quote from: duraace
Being relatively new to photography, I'm curious to know whether long exposure techniques are a new practice, or have lenses been expected to do this since the film days? My guess is that the abberation with the 24-70 lens is limited to that lens only. It would be really interesting to know if it is present in the 70-200? Anyone?

I go back a few decades in photography and while I've heard of this technique for a while, I've never personally known anyone who practiced it nor have I done so myself so I can't speak as to how popular or how much it is practiced amongst the spectrum of photographic styles.

You've definitely discovered a design defect - and I'd call it a defect more than an abberation (an abberation is typically thought of as a result of an optical design decision, not a manufacturing snafu); the question is whether it's of a magnitude that Nikon would ever redesign the lens (and whether they'd even know about it - they're not cruising the forums when they make design decisions), and as I've stated before, I don't think it's a deal killer being it doesn't impact the vast majority of usage the lens is intended for.

As for other lenses - good question. I sold off my 70-200 recently, but if I get some other things knocked off my to-do list, I might try it on some of the other newer Nikon 'G' lenses I've got kicking around.

-m
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 20, 2009, 01:44:31 pm
Quote from: NashvilleMike
I go back a few decades in photography and while I've heard of this technique for a while, I've never personally known anyone who practiced it nor have I done so myself so I can't speak as to how popular or how much it is practices amongst the spectrum of photographic styles.

You've definitely discovered a design defect - and I'd call it a defect more than an abberation (an abberation is typically thought of as a result of an optical design decision, not a manufacturing snafu); the question is whether it's of a magnitude that Nikon would ever redesign the lens (and whether they'd even know about it - they're not cruising the forums when they make design decisions), and as I've stated before, I don't think it's a deal killer being it doesn't impact the vast majority of usage the lens is intended for.

As for other lenses - good question. I sold off my 70-200 recently, but if I get some other things knocked off my to-do list, I might try it on some of the other newer Nikon 'G' lenses I've got kicking around.

-m

FYI  It's not present on any of my prime lenses.  I only have one zoom - 14mm-24mm and it doesn't accommodate filters, so not a candidate. There are a few known professional photographers practicing long exposure, and commanding large sums for their prints.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 20, 2009, 04:02:55 pm
Duraace,

you can test the 14-24 with the lens cap on,like NashvilleMike did.

All you need is light entering trough the plastic distance counter to show the problem.

That is if there is one with all other Nikon zooms.

Cheers,

Willem.


N.B The good thing that came out of this,that the "problem" has been solved.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 20, 2009, 04:44:58 pm
Quote from: rethmeier
Duraace,

you can test the 14-24 with the lens cap on,like NashvilleMike did.

All you need is light entering trough the plastic distance counter to show the problem.

That is if there is one with all other Nikon zooms.

Cheers,

Willem.


N.B The good thing that came out of this,that the "problem" has been solved.

I wouldn't say the problem has been "solved", but rather an easy workaround to a reproducible design defect in thr 24-70 lens has been found. The bigger question remains, is this common among all zoom lenses and how does Nikon view the issue?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 21, 2009, 02:00:31 pm
Quote from: NashvilleMike
I go back a few decades in photography and while I've heard of this technique for a while, I've never personally known anyone who practiced it nor have I done so myself so I can't speak as to how popular or how much it is practiced amongst the spectrum of photographic styles.

You've definitely discovered a design defect - and I'd call it a defect more than an abberation (an abberation is typically thought of as a result of an optical design decision, not a manufacturing snafu); the question is whether it's of a magnitude that Nikon would ever redesign the lens (and whether they'd even know about it - they're not cruising the forums when they make design decisions), and as I've stated before, I don't think it's a deal killer being it doesn't impact the vast majority of usage the lens is intended for.

As for other lenses - good question. I sold off my 70-200 recently, but if I get some other things knocked off my to-do list, I might try it on some of the other newer Nikon 'G' lenses I've got kicking around.

-m


I did the same test as NashvilleMike on the 14mm-24mm lens, and it came out solid black, so no design defect showing up on this lens on long exposure, which suggests the defect is in the 24mm-70mm lens only.  Can anyone provide similar results for the 70mm-200mm?
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: clayh on October 21, 2009, 06:40:40 pm
Somehow double posted. see below
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: clayh on October 21, 2009, 06:44:27 pm
Quote from: clayh
I just sent my 24-70 back to Nikon because it does this. Here is the problem. This is a 30 sec exposure at roughly f/11 in all cases (3.0ND used!)

I think mine is caused by a internal coating defect. Observe how the defect migrates up and to the left as the focal length is increased. It is gone at 70mm!
(http://www.clayharmon.com/images/ldc.jpg)
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: duraace on October 21, 2009, 08:48:56 pm
As NashvilleMike discovered on page 3 of this post: "a double layer of black masking tape over the plastic distance scale would solve the problem"
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Rob C on October 22, 2009, 04:24:28 am
I wonder if anyone is going to apologise to duraace for the original scorn with which he was greeted by some?

Sort of reminds me of politics: there are those who simply refuse to accept that their gods can have huge, plodding, feet of clay.

Rob C
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Slough on October 22, 2009, 06:07:34 am
Quote from: Rob C
I wonder if anyone is going to apologise to duraace for the original scorn with which he was greeted by some?

Sort of reminds me of politics: there are those who simply refuse to accept that their gods can have huge, plodding, feet of clay.

Rob C

It is not uncommon for someone to bad mouth equipment whilst being unable to provide proof, such is life. And the original post was very sketchy, and did not provide the amount of detail required to determine what the problem was. However, a bit of thought, and some tests, from numerous people on the forum have solved his issue, so he should be a happy bunny, or at least a more informed one who can make his own decision about the lens in question.

And Duraace might like to thank me for suggesting what the problem might be, describing a way to test for it without need of a ND filter and suggesting a simple fix. After all some other people including NashvilleMike originally said they could not see the problem, or could not performs tests due to not having a 10 stop ND filter. (Then again, I'm not one of the forum 'experts'.) And he might like to thank NashvilleMike for carrying out the suggested test, confirming that it is due to light leakage from the sides, and confirming that the suggested fix does work.

There's no need for masking tape which could get gunk on the lens and into the mechanism. A simple sleeve (card with black felt on the inside) should work and could be stored on the lens.

I have to agree with those who say that this is a design flaw, and Nikon should be alerted. As to whether or not this is a "not fit for purpose" flaw, that I do not know. Not many people carry out such exposures. I would say it is not a reason to claim a refund from Nikon. Just my opinion, and others may disagree.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Downtown on October 22, 2009, 11:55:40 am
Quote from: Slough
It is not uncommon for someone to bad mouth equipment whilst being unable to provide proof, such is life. And the original post was very sketchy, and did not provide the amount of detail required to determine what the problem was. However, a bit of thought, and some tests, from numerous people on the forum have solved his issue, so he should be a happy bunny, or at least a more informed one who can make his own decision about the lens in question.

And Duraace might like to thank me for suggesting what the problem might be, describing a way to test for it without need of a ND filter and suggesting a simple fix. After all some other people including NashvilleMike originally said they could not see the problem, or could not performs tests due to not having a 10 stop ND filter. (Then again, I'm not one of the forum 'experts'.) And he might like to thank NashvilleMike for carrying out the suggested test, confirming that it is due to light leakage from the sides, and confirming that the suggested fix does work.

There's no need for masking tape which could get gunk on the lens and into the mechanism. A simple sleeve (card with black felt on the inside) should work and could be stored on the lens.

I have to agree with those who say that this is a design flaw, and Nikon should be alerted. As to whether or not this is a "not fit for purpose" flaw, that I do not know. Not many people carry out such exposures. I would say it is not a reason to claim a refund from Nikon. Just my opinion, and others may disagree.

A politician in the making .........in other words "Your right, I apologize".
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Slough on October 22, 2009, 01:57:05 pm
Quote from: Downtown
A politician in the making .........in other words "Your right, I apologize".

Sorry? Until my post people were rambling around all over the shop, saying they could not reproduce the problem.

You're right, I apologise for sitting at home, and spending 5 minutes thinking about the problem, and coming up with ideas that helped resolve it. And I apologise for resenting the fact that Nashville Mike did as I suggested without mentioning my post and others refer to his solution. In future I won't bother to be helpful, and instead when somone posts a vague question, badly expressed, missing important details, not describing what they were doing, and sounding like a troll, I'll ignore it, and not waste my time.

And maybe you should come down from your pedestal.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Downtown on October 22, 2009, 02:52:26 pm
Quote from: Slough
Sorry? Until my post people were rambling around all over the shop, saying they could not reproduce the problem.

You're right, I apologise for sitting at home, and spending 5 minutes thinking about the problem, and coming up with ideas that helped resolve it. And I apologise for resenting the fact that Nashville Mike did as I suggested without mentioning my post and others refer to his solution. In future I won't bother to be helpful, and instead when somone posts a vague question, badly expressed, missing important details, not describing what they were doing, and sounding like a troll, I'll ignore it, and not waste my time.

And maybe you should come down from your pedestal.


After reviewing the thread you in fact did have the initial problem diagnosed and should be given full credit for your contibutation to rectify the problem. If I offended you I apoligize! I'm just happy that I can now go back and use this lense to it's full potential.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: Slough on October 22, 2009, 04:05:13 pm
Quote from: Downtown
After reviewing the thread you in fact did have the initial problem diagnosed and should be given full credit for your contibutation to rectify the problem. If I offended you I apoligize! I'm just happy that I can now go back and use this lense to it's full potential.

Okay, fair enough. Sorry if my tone to Durace was a bit harsh, although I think scepticism was not unreasonable. And no you did not offend me.
Title: Nikon 24mm-70mm lens abberation at long exposure
Post by: rethmeier on October 22, 2009, 05:51:59 pm
Can we now put this to bed?

I've already put black electrical tape over the plastic part that is the culprit.

That is IF was going to do extreme long exposures.

My long exposures are usually in dimly lit areas and a 30 seconds max.

I doubt if that would create the problem.


Thanks for the testers to re create and find the problem.

N.B Maybe RobC can now try another 24-70?