Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: RandomJoe on October 03, 2009, 07:07:16 pm
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Here is my problem
I am looking to get a HP Dreamcolor 24" Monitor
a 20" Imac with a Mini Displayport and a Epson 9900
I heard that the mini-display ports on Macs can really only deliver 8bits of color and not 10bits that the dreamcolor can display
I considered going to a PC with a Videocard that can output 10bit color. but on PCs I cant print 16bit to the Epson 9900 from Photoshop
How do I get 10bits of color going to the Dreamcolor and 16bits going to the Epson 9900 on the same machine (Mac or PC)
also Im looking at getting a Spyder3Studio SR Calibration system to calibrate everything together
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Firstly, I'm not sure that there is any way to get greater than 10-bit out of a PC right now. At least not with regular desktop software. I have heard that Windows 7 supports up to 16-bit colour, but I don't think there are any graphics cards that support it yet.
Secondly, I think it turned out that the DreamColor display is actually using an 8-bit LCD panel with a 10-bit LUT so you're basically just getting a dithered 8-bit display and not true 10-bit colour. (so you get 256 steps of gradation vs 1024)
Thirdly, I would recommend the ColorMunki over a Spyder package. The Spyder3 can be a good meter, but I don't think their factory tolerances are all that great, so it's really luck whether you get a good one or not. That was certainly the case with the Spyder2. The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer rather than a Colorimeter, which is generally a better device for calibration. (a profiled/tuned colorimeter is better than a spectro, but for general use a spectro is better)
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Firstly, I'm not sure that there is any way to get greater than 10-bit out of a PC right now. At least not with regular desktop software. I have heard that Windows 7 supports up to 16-bit colour, but I don't think there are any graphics cards that support it yet.
Secondly, I think it turned out that the DreamColor display is actually using an 8-bit LCD panel with a 10-bit LUT so you're basically just getting a dithered 8-bit display and not true 10-bit colour. (so you get 256 steps of gradation vs 1024)
Thirdly, I would recommend the ColorMunki over a Spyder package. The Spyder3 can be a good meter, but I don't think their factory tolerances are all that great, so it's really luck whether you get a good one or not. That was certainly the case with the Spyder2. The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer rather than a Colorimeter, which is generally a better device for calibration. (a profiled/tuned colorimeter is better than a spectro, but for general use a spectro is better)
The DreamColor bashing continues ...
I have the HP LP2480zx monitor. It is a wonderful display that has a true 30 bit panel (10bits/color) and a 12 bit LUT. http://bizsupport2.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/s...5/c01668595.pdf (http://bizsupport2.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c01668595/c01668595.pdf)
There have been video cards capable of outputting 10 bits/channel for some time now. The limit has been with operating systems and output connections. A 10 bit per channel signal can be transmitted via the HDMI and Display Port connectors on the DreamColor monitor.
It is currently the widest gamut monitor available and the only monitor that can accurately calibrate seven distinct color spaces and retain the calibration information in the monitor's LUT. This allows you to switch calibrated gamuts with the push of a button.
I would recommend the DreamColor monitor and the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution which contains an Xrite i1 Display 2 custom filtered for the extremely wide gamut of the DreamColor monitor with software allowing the calibration to be written to the monitors LUT.
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Firstly, I'm not sure that there is any way to get greater than 10-bit out of a PC right now. At least not with regular desktop software. I have heard that Windows 7 supports up to 16-bit colour, but I don't think there are any graphics cards that support it yet.
Secondly, I think it turned out that the DreamColor display is actually using an 8-bit LCD panel with a 10-bit LUT so you're basically just getting a dithered 8-bit display and not true 10-bit colour. (so you get 256 steps of gradation vs 1024)
Thirdly, I would recommend the ColorMunki over a Spyder package. The Spyder3 can be a good meter, but I don't think their factory tolerances are all that great, so it's really luck whether you get a good one or not. That was certainly the case with the Spyder2. The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer rather than a Colorimeter, which is generally a better device for calibration. (a profiled/tuned colorimeter is better than a spectro, but for general use a spectro is better)
from a review ive read.. it rated the spyder3 over the colormunki
and the Spyder3 also is a Spectrophotometer and also includes a Colorimeter
so it can do both Screen and Print
Id like to run it all from a Mac, but from what ive read the mini displayport currently available only outputs 8bits and not the 10bits that it should.
I am also thinking of the NEC LCD2180WG-LED-SV which is a 10bit, LED panel similar to the HP , but can hook up via Dual Link DVi for 10bit output
not sure if Mac Pro can hook up to this properly
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from a review ive read.. it rated the spyder3 over the colormunki
and the Spyder3 also is a Spectrophotometer and also includes a Colorimeter
so it can do both Screen and Print
Id like to run it all from a Mac, but from what ive read the mini displayport currently available only outputs 8bits and not the 10bits that it should.
I am also thinking of the NEC LCD2180WG-LED-SV which is a 10bit, LED panel similar to the HP , but can hook up via Dual Link DVi for 10bit output
not sure if Mac Pro can hook up to this properly
The NEC you mentioned is discontinued and has a 10 bit LUT as opposed to the 12 bit LUT of the HP. THe DreamColor can also connect by dual link DVI but this connection type not giving you true 10 bit input.
My DreamColor monitor is hooked up to my MacPro with a 20WSX Cintiq as a secondary display. The MacPro is running an ATIX1900XT video card which sports two dual link DVI outputs and claims it can output 10bit but it is still limited by the operating system.
30-bit world
The HP DreamColor LP2480zx display’s 30-bit panel can display 30-bit content accurately, without losing precision. However, to achieve this you must have a complete 30-bit chain, with all components able to handle 30-bit pixels:
application operating system graphics driver graphics card DisplayPort cable LP2480zx display
At the time of writing this paper (July 2008), few commercial applications are able to display 30-bit images, and 30-bit-capable graphics cards are in the prototype stage. The DisplayPort connection is already 30-bit capable. Over time, applications, cards, and drivers will reach the market and provide a full 30-bit path from application to display.
24-bit world
For most users, color will remain at 24-bit precision. For example, if your graphics card doesn’t have a DisplayPort output, then DVI will probably be in use. DVI is limited to 24 bits.
The good news is that the HP DreamColor LP2480zx display’s 30-bit panel delivers a benefit even when displaying 24-bit pixels. The internal electronic system in the display, known as the HP DreamColor Engine, adjusts pixel colors and luminances to map them accurately to the user’s selected standard color space (sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc). This engine operates at very high (36-bit) precision, and the results are displayed at 30-bit precision on the panel. This means that the 30-bit panel improves the ability of the display to show exactly the correct color for every pixel. A 24-bit panel would introduce larger deviations from accuracy, which can give rise to banding and other undesirable effects.
Display output and print output are like apples and oranges. The Mac OS Leopard is already capable of outputting 16bits to the printer driver in Photoshop CS4, but this has little to do with display output. Photoshop is still only capable of outputting 8bit color to the graphic card and the same is true of the Mac OS. The video card and/or monitor LUT then extrapolates this data into 10 bit color for display. This is where a 12 bit LUT is able to give a smoother transition than 10 BIt LUT.
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from a review ive read.. it rated the spyder3 over the colormunki
and the Spyder3 also is a Spectrophotometer and also includes a Colorimeter
so it can do both Screen and Print
Spyder3 is not a spectrophotometer, it's only a reflective colorimeter. I didn't test the profiling solution, but IMO Spyder puck doesn't work well with wide gamut panels. The ColorMunki is a perfect solution if you have NEC panel with Spectraview software, or Eizo CG with ColorNavigator - the bundled software is too simple to take advantage of high bit panel.
As for the 10bit output, I wouldn't care until software really supports it.
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The DreamColor bashing continues ...
I have the HP LP2480zx monitor. It is a wonderful display that has a true 30 bit panel (10bits/color) and a 12 bit LUT. http://bizsupport2.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/s...5/c01668595.pdf (http://bizsupport2.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c01668595/c01668595.pdf)
It was not my intention to ‘bash’ the DreamColor monitor, I had read that it used an 8-bit LG panel though, so it seemed like whether or not you could send it 10-bit data was fairly inconsequential, especially when virtually no software supports a greater than 8-bit output, even if the OS can do it.
There have been video cards capable of outputting 10 bits/channel for some time now. The limit has been with operating systems and output connections. A 10 bit per channel signal can be transmitted via the HDMI and Display Port connectors on the DreamColor monitor.
I know that HDMI and DisplayPort are capable of transmitting greater than 8-bit data, but I didn't realise there were any cards that actually could. I would be very happy if updating to Windows 7 means I can output 10/16-bit colour from my HDMI 1.3-equipped PC. (my LCoS projector has native 10-bit panels, for example)
I did have a look around, but couldn't find any evidence of people outputting greater than 8-bit on Windows 7, or available graphics cards that can do it, just articles stating that Microsoft have claimed they will support it.
It does look like the upcoming 5800 series from ATi will support ‘Deep Color’ output though, as it is listed in their specifications. (Deep Color = greater than 8-bit 4:4:4 colour)
I would recommend the DreamColor monitor and the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution which contains an Xrite i1 Display 2 custom filtered for the extremely wide gamut of the DreamColor monitor with software allowing the calibration to be written to the monitors LUT.
I would second this recommendation if he plans on getting one. As I mentioned above, a spectro is generally more accurate than a colorimeter, but a colorimeter ‘tuned’ for a specific display is preferable to a spectro. (at least, preferable to ‘inexpensive’ consumer spectros)
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Quotes from the Manufacturers website
Spyder3Studio SR
What You Get
-Spyder3Print SR™ Spectrocolorimeter & Base
- Spyder3Elite™ Colorimeter
New Profiling Speed and Accuracy
New strip reading Spectrocolorimeter gives you custom profiles in minutes with EZ targets for color or black and white. New SpyderGuide™ included for convenience in creating profiles easily and accurately.
not sure why people say its not.. it has a Colorimeter for the screen and spectrocolorimeter for print
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not sure why people say its not.. it has a Colorimeter for the screen and spectrocolorimeter for print
I only said it'd not a spectrophotometer - Datacolor marketoids may call it "spectrocolorimeter", but it's still a colorimeter, not a spectrophotometer - no mater how cool they'll call it.
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I only said it'd not a spectrophotometer - Datacolor marketoids may call it "spectrocolorimeter", but it's still a colorimeter, not a spectrophotometer - no mater how cool they'll call it.
How do you know? im just curious
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How do you know? im just curious
dr Karl Lang explains the difference between colorimeter and spectrophotometer here:
http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whit...xrite-wp-3a.pdf (http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/xrite-wp-3a.pdf)
If that instrument was a real spectrophotometer, with holographic diffraction grating and photodiode matrix, they'd call it "spectrophotometer", not "spectrocolorimeter". New Spyder colorimeters are modified - they have 7 detectors instead of 4 detector in former colorimeters, but they are still colorimeters.
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10bit, 12 bit, immaterial. What’s useful is more than 8 bits to avoid banding. You’re not getting all 10-12 bits out anyway, not until the full display path AND the OS AND the applications support it. None do today. Its like arguing that 16-bit capture is superior to 12 bit (nothing else considered) and what’s really important here is, you’ve got more than 8-bits.
The Datacolor device is not a true Spectrophotometer. Its some device with a name they made up.... Karl’s piece describes the differences.
None of the color geeks I know like Karl, who jumped on the HP early are as thrilled with the final product as at least one here. Mostly due to software issues and the like. Its what you get when you jump on the bleeding edge. You want to call that bashing, well so be it.
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hmm ok
Im not very impressed with the Colormunki
what product would you suggest to calibrate Wide Gamut screens and do printer profiles
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hmm ok
Im not very impressed with the Colormunki
what product would you suggest to calibrate Wide Gamut screens and do printer profiles
The ColorMunki produces fine results on my wide gamut NEC 3090....
Better however would be the custom mated i1 Display. NEC in this case has had X-Rite build custom filter matrixes into the device for their units. If you read Karl’s piece, you’ll see that a Colorimeter is superior at measuring darker colors. So a custom mated Colorimeter, is the best solution, as we’ve seen over the years with PressView, Artisan and Barco reference V.
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Spyder3 is not a spectrophotometer, it's only a reflective colorimeter. I didn't test the profiling solution, but IMO Spyder puck doesn't work well with wide gamut panels. The ColorMunki is a perfect solution if you have NEC panel with Spectraview software, or Eizo CG with ColorNavigator - the bundled software is too simple to take advantage of high bit panel.
As for the 10bit output, I wouldn't care until software really supports it.
Have you managed to get the Colormunki working with European Spectraview software (Basicolor)? I can't, it doesn't seem to be supported.
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None of the color geeks I know like Karl, who jumped on the HP early are as thrilled with the final product as at least one here. Mostly due to software issues and the like. Its what you get when you jump on the bleeding edge. You want to call that bashing, well so be it.
Again, reporting conjecture and third party information without fact is misleading and unfair to someone who is contemplating this purchase.
"Software issues and the like" is hardly a professional opinion, in fact it could apply to most hardware in today's market of ever changing operating systems.
The DreamColor monitor and HP Advanced Profiling Solution function well with both Mac OS 10.6.1 and Vista 64bit on my MacPro 2.66 quad Xeon with ATIX1900XT graphic card.
The truth is that monitors backlit with RGB LED produce the widest color gamut currently available. If that is what the OP is looking for, then this should be the monitor to consider.
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Have you managed to get the Colormunki working with European Spectraview software (Basicolor)? I can't, it doesn't seem to be supported.
No, only American Spectraview II and Eizo Color Navigator. For some mysterious reason basICColor (aka Spectraview Profiler) still doesn't support CM.
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Again, reporting conjecture and third party information without fact is misleading and unfair to someone who is contemplating this purchase.
Well after calling it a piece of shit and discussing the broken firmware....
Maybe its all been fixed. Early adopters live on the bleeding edge.
The DreamColor monitor and HP Advanced Profiling Solution function well with both Mac OS 10.6.1 and Vista 64bit on my MacPro 2.66 quad Xeon with ATIX1900XT graphic card.
No one said it didn’t function. Function as designed and advertised to the level a color scientist with the tools and understanding and test it feel it should function is a different story.
The truth is that monitors backlit with RGB LED produce the widest color gamut currently available. If that is what the OP is looking for, then this should be the monitor to consider.
Well whooped-do. Like the number of bits, it appears you’re most interested in big numbers and big gamuts and feel that’s the ultimate criteria. You do realize that for many, wider gamut is actually detrimental to image editing, because we don’t have a full high bit display path.
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Andrew, I have yet to read any evaluation (positive or negative) of this monitor by Karl Lang. The fact that he has one speaks for itself.
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Andrew, I have yet to read any evaluation (positive or negative) of this monitor by Karl Lang. The fact that he has one speaks for itself.
You’re not really on Karl’s Radar...
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hmmm.. no 10bit color on the Mac, no 10bit connection on the mac
photoshop can only show 8 bits in OSX 10.6
you can get 10bit on a PC.. but you dont get 16bit printing on the PC
Gah.. why cant either platform give you both..
10bit colour with 16 bit printing
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hmmm.. no 10bit color on the Mac, no 10bit connection on the mac
photoshop can only show 8 bits in OSX 10.6
you can get 10bit on a PC.. but you dont get 16bit printing on the PC
Gah.. why cant either platform give you both..
10bit colour with 16 bit printing
Are you sure? I have just updated my PC to Windows 7 today, and despite having a graphics card with a HDMI v1.3 port (motherboard with an integrated nVidia 9400) and a display that can accept up to 12-bit colour I see no option to output anything greater than 8-bit colour. (or 32-bit as Windows calls it)
I know that ATi have been advertising ‘10-bit quality’ for a while now, but it's still 8-bit data coming out of the card, it's just a 10-bit LUT dithered to 8-bit from what I understand. (and ideally, you would not use a graphics card's LUT for colour correction anyway)
Even if I could get 10/16-bit out from my PC, I don't know of any applications that support it, including Photoshop, so the only difference would be Windows multiplying every output value by 256. (8-bit = 256 steps of gradation, 16-bit = 65536 steps) It might report 16-bit but the image quality would be identical.
At this point, it all seems to be theoretical, rather than something that is actually possible. Perhaps when the new ATi cards come out that will change (as they mention Deep Colour support in the specs) but even if they do, you won't see a bit of difference right now, as there are no applications that support greater than 8-bit output.
What absolutely is a benefit, however, is a monitor with high bit-depth writeable LUTs. That way you leave the 8-bit data untouched on the PC-side, and do greyscale/colour calibration with higher precision inside the monitor, resulting in less posterisation.
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Some Graphics card manufacturers claim 10 bit per channel output via DVI such as the ATIX1900 series (PC and Mac)
Avivo™ Video and Display Platform
High performance programmable video processor
Accelerated MPEG-2, MPEG-4, DivX, WMV9, VC-1, and H.264 decoding and transcoding
DXVA support
De-blocking and noise reduction filtering
Motion compensation, IDCT, DCT and color space conversion
Vector adaptive per-pixel de-interlacing
3:2 pulldown (frame rate conversion)
Seamless integration of pixel shaders with video in real time
HDR tone mapping acceleration
Maps any input format to 10 bit per channel output
Flexible display support
Dual integrated dual-link DVI transmitters
DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready*
Dual integrated 10 bit per channel 400 MHz DACs
16 bit per channel floating point HDR and 10 bit per channel DVI output
Programmable piecewise linear gamma correction, color correction, and color space conversion (10 bits per color)
Complete, independent color controls and video overlays for each display
High quality pre- and post-scaling engines, with underscan support for all outputs
Content-adaptive de-flicker filtering for interlaced displays
Xilleon™ TV encoder for high quality analog output
YPrPb component output for direct drive of HDTV displays
Spatial/temporal dithering enables 10-bit color quality on 8-bit and 6-bit displays
Fast, glitch-free mode switching
VGA mode support on all outputs
Drive two displays simultaneously with independent resolutions and refresh rates
The ATI 4870 HD claims full 30 bit display output via mini display port/dvi (Mac/PC)
http://ati.amd.com/products/Radeonhd4800/specs3.html (http://ati.amd.com/products/Radeonhd4800/specs3.html)
ATI Fire Pro V5700 line claims 8, 10 amd 16 bit per color output via Display port (PC)
http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation...5700-specs.aspx (http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v5700/Pages/v5700-specs.aspx)
Then there is the NVIDIA Quadro CX claims 30 bit output via Display Port and optimized for Adobe CS4(PC) hopefully we will see a MAc option
http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_cx_us.html (http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_cx_us.html)
NVIDIA currently makes the dual link DVI Quadro FX4800 for Mac Pro but I could not find information about color output
http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadr...for_mac_us.html (http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_fx_4800_for_mac_us.html)
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It was not my intention to ‘bash’ the DreamColor monitor, I had read that it used an 8-bit LG panel though, so it seemed like whether or not you could send it 10-bit data was fairly inconsequential, especially when virtually no software supports a greater than 8-bit output, even if the OS can do it.
I know that HDMI and DisplayPort are capable of transmitting greater than 8-bit data, but I didn't realise there were any cards that actually could. I would be very happy if updating to Windows 7 means I can output 10/16-bit colour from my HDMI 1.3-equipped PC. (my LCoS projector has native 10-bit panels, for example)
I did have a look around, but couldn't find any evidence of people outputting greater than 8-bit on Windows 7, or available graphics cards that can do it, just articles stating that Microsoft have claimed they will support it.
It does look like the upcoming 5800 series from ATi will support ‘Deep Color’ output though, as it is listed in their specifications. (Deep Color = greater than 8-bit 4:4:4 colour)
I would second this recommendation if he plans on getting one. As I mentioned above, a spectro is generally more accurate than a colorimeter, but a colorimeter ‘tuned’ for a specific display is preferable to a spectro. (at least, preferable to ‘inexpensive’ consumer spectros)
The HP monitor has very interesting technology behind it. The LCD panel is only one part of the device. It is a high bit screen btw, not at all 8 bit.
Perhaps some writer misinterpreted the fact that you can send 8 bit to the monitor with the normal DVI connection. The electronics reinterpret the 8 bits and apply the necessary LCD corrections at a higher bit depth necessary for accurate control as do all high end monitors.
Most of the recent cards on Macs are fully capable of delivering 10bits, but the DVI port does not with the current systems drivers.
The only way to get 10 bits out to the monitor is a Display Port. I assume the Mini DP has the config so it should work.
The easiest way to calibrate the HP is with a tuned i1 colorimeter APS which I have, but any i1 Pro will do a respectable job too, including the ColorMunki.
I wouldn't recommend the Spyder for this monitor, the co-ordinates are just too far out there for the colorimters expected filtration.
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hmmm.. no 10bit color on the Mac, no 10bit connection on the mac
photoshop can only show 8 bits in OSX 10.6
you can get 10bit on a PC.. but you dont get 16bit printing on the PC
Gah.. why cant either platform give you both..
10bit colour with 16 bit printing
With a card with a Display Port or Mini DP on the Mac the output through that connection should be 10 bit. I don't have one so I cannot verify this. I do know the color scientist that did the set up though and they told me it indeed did work at 10 bits through the Mini DP on the recent portables.
Does it work on the MAcPro with a card that has Display Port? I don't know.
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The HP monitor has very interesting technology behind it. The LCD panel is only one part of the device. It is a high bit screen btw, not at all 8 bit.
Perhaps some writer misinterpreted the fact that you can send 8 bit to the monitor with the normal DVI connection. The electronics reinterpret the 8 bits and apply the necessary LCD corrections at a higher bit depth necessary for accurate control as do all high end monitors.
Neil - do you mean, that HP somehow interpolates 8 bit data to 10bit image (like in Quato IntelliProof) to get smoother transitions, or that is it just used to get better linearization (like in NEC)?
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Neil - do you mean, that HP somehow interpolates 8 bit data to 10bit image (like in Quato IntelliProof) to get smoother transitions, or that is it just used to get better linearization (like in NEC)?
Actually it does both but in two different process steps. That is according to the manual anyway.
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Actually it does both but in two different process steps. That is according to the manual anyway.
Thanks, that's interesting information - HP should have more informative marketing materials.
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The easiest way to calibrate the HP is with a tuned i1 colorimeter APS which I have, but any i1 Pro will do a respectable job too, including the ColorMunki.
I wouldn't recommend the Spyder for this monitor, the co-ordinates are just too far out there for the colorimters expected filtration.
Currently the only calibration solution that will write to the DreamColor LUT is the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution.
From Greg Staten HP DreamColor Engineer:
The HP DreamColor calibration kit comes with a modified X-Rite i1D2 calibrator. Due to the very wide gamut of the monitor, we had to modify the calibrator's firmware so that it could properly read the monitor's wide gamut color primaries. (Essentially it had to be re-programmed to read a different base wavelength for each R,G,B primary.) Using a standard i1D2 will give incorrect results and wrong calibration.
At this point the calibration software for Mac and Windows (developed for us by X-Rite) does not support any other calibrators. That said, we and our studio partners have developed an open source calibration tool for Linux called Ookala (
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ookala-mcf/) (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ookala-mcf/)) that can be used with either the DreamColor i1D2 or an X-Rite Chroma5. In addition, the hooks are provided to write a driver for different calibration hardware.
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Thanks, that's interesting information - HP should have more informative marketing materials.
They do. Please refer to attached files.
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They do. Please refer to attached files.
I've read these materials before and didn't find anything about converting 8bit signal to 10bit, like in Quato White Papers:
http://www.quato.de/german/manuals/Whitepaper_IP262_240.pdf (http://www.quato.de/german/manuals/Whitepaper_IP262_240.pdf)
page 6: "The display’s image processing unit (IPU) converts any 8 bit signal from the digital graphics card to 10 bit. As the human eye needs more than 256 shades of gray to have the perception of a smooth blending from one color to the other, this 10bit output is needed to reproduce ultra smooth gradiants and high dynamic images without loosing detail."
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The entire DreamColor Manual was to large to upload. I extracted the portion dealing with color management and theory behind it which should answer any questions.
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Hi Jerry I have afew questions about the DreamColor.
I have read on some forums that the DreamColor is not a 10bit display. Do you know of any conformation of this fact? I also read that there's dithering. Are the preset color modes (sRGB, Adobe RGB etc) emulations using the monitor's full gamut or is each color preset a true gamut as if the monitor was designed sprecifically each one?
Also I have been trying to find some indepth professional reviews for this monitor but can't seem to find any. Do you know of any reviews?
Thanks!
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Cyclone,
Yes the LP2480zx is a true 10 bit panel. The seven distinct color spaces can each be independently calibrated and represent accurate gamuts not emulations. This is the only monitor on the market that can accomplish that task. The calibrations are stored in the monitor LUT. There are many reviews of this monitor on the internet, none that I know of are performed by a color scientist. The quality and accuracy of the reviews reflect the knowledge of the reviewer. Some of the best information about this monitor can be found on the Creative Cow website, including input from an HP DreamColor engineer. Just do a search on their site for "DreamColor"
http://forums.creativecow.net/ (http://forums.creativecow.net/)
Also, please read the material that I previously uploaded concerning this monitor. It should answer most of your questions.
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The seven distinct color spaces can each be independently calibrated and represent accurate gamuts not emulations. This is the only monitor on the market that can accomplish that task.
Some of the Eizo displays can "emulate" another color gamut because they can do gamut transforms in the display on the RGB video data.
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Thanks for your replys. I did find a couple of reviews but none that went in depth that analysed the color, showing color accuracy (deltaE) and orther aspects relevent to lcds. All I found were subjective reviews.
*Edit*
I read part of that pdf posted above but I don't understand what this means. So it does dithering?
"(The LP2480zx’s “front-end” electronics are also, however, capable of
providing temporal dithering, if needed, to increase the delivered accuracy beyond the 10 bits/color level.
By default, this is used only between the pre-LUT and the 3x3 matrix multiplier stage; temporal dithering
is possible but normally disabled at the 30-bit connection between the post-LUT and the LCD module
itself.)"
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Thanks for your replys. I did find a couple of reviews but none that went in depth that analysed the color, showing color accuracy (deltaE) and orther aspects relevent to lcds. All I found were subjective reviews.
*Edit*
I read part of that pdf posted above but I don't understand what this means. So it does dithering?
"(The LP2480zx’s “front-end” electronics are also, however, capable of
providing temporal dithering, if needed, to increase the delivered accuracy beyond the 10 bits/color level.
By default, this is used only between the pre-LUT and the 3x3 matrix multiplier stage; temporal dithering
is possible but normally disabled at the 30-bit connection between the post-LUT and the LCD module
itself.)"
Again, The answers are in the material I uploaded:
Q. Do I need a 30-bit graphics card (also called 10-bit) to use the HP DreamColor LP2480zx display?
A. No. The HP DreamColor LP2480zx display has 36-bit precision in the HP DreamColor Engine. A full 30-bit pixel is sent from the DreamColor Engine to be displayed on the HP 30- bit LCD panel with no dithering or frame rate control. However, even with an 8-bit per color channel, 24-bits per pixel graphics card, the user benefits from the HP 30-bit LCD panel because the HP DreamColor Engine still selects colors from the full 1.07 billion color palette. The benefit is more accurate gamut control and tone response and the virtual elimination of visual artifacts such as banding or contouring.
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Thanks for your reply. I guess I just don't understand this sentance and why people say this monitors dithers. I'm not well versed in color management or lcd technology but maybe with 8bit graphics cards the monitor dithers the 8bit signal to 10 bit witch uses dithering for more detail?
"By default, this is used only between the pre-LUT and the 3x3 matrix multiplier stage; temporal dithering
is possible but normally disabled at the 30-bit connection between the post-LUT and the LCD module
itself"
In any case I don't want to keep this thread off track so thanks for your previous input.
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The DreamColor bashing continues ...
Understandably so. This just posted on the ColorSync list:
I just wasted over 90 minutes on the phone with HP Tech Support.
To make a long story short, the recently released HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution software (v1.1.0, released on 2/2/2010 by X-Rite) for the custom Display 2 colorimeter will not run on OS 10.6.2. Of course, neither will the old v1.0.2 software, which means that at the current time, it is not possible to calibrate and profile this monitor using the DDC controls. (It is possible to use an i1 Pro and Match to profile only.)
HP's Tech Support is completely infuriating. First, I was told that the product didn't exist, because it wasn't in their database. A few transfers later, I was told by Vishwa in Hardware Tech Support that "if the old version of the software runs on Mac OS 10.4.11 and the new version doesn't run on OS 10.6.2, you need to contact Apple and have them fix it." Yea, sure. Over and over, round and round, it was first Apple's problem, then X-Rite's problem, but never HP's responsibility. I was also told that I needed to "do a clean re-install of OS 10.6.2 from scratch and see if that fixes it." Do they have any reason to expect that would work? Nope.
I could never get any useful information out of anyone I spoke with at HP. They stated that there are no downloads of the software, that it only "comes in the package," and that I needed to purchase a new package to get software that would run with "current operating systems." I finally provided them with a link to X-Rite's site for both PC and Mac downloads of the current software. (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1144&Action=support&SoftwareID=959)
Unfortunately, X-Rite's response was not helpful, either, nor does their website indicate that the recently released software is not compatible with OS 10.6.2. It's also not listed on their Snow Leopard Compatibility Page. (https://www.xrite.com/support_doc.aspx?supportid=5041). X-rite's e-mail response:
"In response to your recent support question:
HP is set up to handle all HP DreamColor APS questions. Please use the following link to access the HP support options:
http://www.hp.com/sbso/assist/index.html" (http://www.hp.com/sbso/assist/index.html") which is of course where I began this morning.
HP's support has consistently been the worst I have ever encountered in over 30 years of dealing with hardware and software manufacturers. While the DreamColor is a fine monitor, based on their lack of support, I would never purchase another HP product.
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Understandably so. This just posted on the ColorSync list:
I don't know why you decided to rehash this old thread. I didn't see this comment on the Colorsync list. In any case, it is a wonderful monitor and both HP and Xrite support suck. I went through the Snow Leopard transition with the same problem and discovered the fix on my own. Here is my post addressing the issue from another forum:
I have solved my problem with the HP DreamColor Advanced Profiling Solution software (written by Xrite) and Snow Leopard. I completely uninstalled the software including the OBIWAN Driver for the Xrite puck that loaded on startup. I also deleted the associated plist file (com.xrite.ninjad.plist) located in User/Library/Launch Agents. A reboot after the software uninstall and then a reinstall of the software seems to have corrected the problem.
Xrite Tech support was not very forthcoming with a solution, they sent me the following email suggesting I do a permissions repair:
"As you probably know, Snow Leopard was released last Friday. Our engineers will require some time to complete their compatibility testing. We will update our website with relevant information and bug fixes as we complete testing on this OS. In the meantime, rebuilding your disk permissions is always a good first step in troubleshooting software issues on the Mac. You may want to see if that helps to resolve your issues with your HP DreamColor APS."
Basically their Mac support sucks...
Feel free to pass on the solution.
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I don't know why you decided to rehash this old thread. I didn't see this comment on the Colorsync list.
Rich Wagner (and ASMP guy from Tucson) posted today, go look.
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Apple Snow Leopard transitional problems are not limited to HPs monitors.
I just upgraded from Tiger to Snow Leopard v. 10.6.2 on my MacBook Pro 2.33 Ghz laptop with ATI Radeon X1600 Video Card. I also have a NEC 2690wuxi connected as a 2nd display. After experiencing some color issues, I called NEC tech support, and at one point was directed to reset the display to factory defaults and reinstall Spectraview2 software. After doing so, my NEC will no longer display at the proper 1920 x 1200 resolution, despite that setting being selected in display preferences. It only displays 1600 x 1200 or lower resolution, resulting in a distorted image.
Tech support at NEC suggested I update the ATI Radeon X1600 driver to resolve the issue. But Tech support at ATI/AMD support tells me that this driver must come from Apple. I cannot find an update despite a lot of searching. Any insight into resolving this issue would be appreciated.
Edit: By using the VGA connection on the display with an adapter to connect to my MacBook Pro, I'm able to achieve the proper resolution. Am I loosing anything with this work around?