Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: drh681 on August 22, 2005, 04:51:22 pm
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hmmm...
I think the 5D is a price point Killer. <4000$ for a full frame!?!?
nikon and minolta are tearing their collective hair out.
but as a gap filler, it is no 20D or 1DmkII in terms of frame rate.
It is what it is, a very good general use full frame DSLR at a very attractive price.
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Well, let's see...
Someone speculated on 7/15/05 that: "the introduction of a model between the 1D-MkII and the 20D is highly unlikely."
The 5D seems to be that model.
Maybe that someone was just talking out of his rectum.
I love being quoted out of context. Try adding in the rest of what I said:
Such a camera is inconsistent with Canon's stated intentions regarding DSLR development and production, at least until the 1- series (1Ds and 1D mark whatever) is combined into a single high-speed, high resolution model. Until that happens, the introduction of a model between the 1D-MkII and the 20D is highly unlikely.
Note that what I was saying was that Canon wasn't likely to introduce a model between the 20D and the 1-series bodies until Canon's stated goal of merging the high resolution (1Ds) and high speed (1D) 1-series bodies into a single model had been accomplished. Given the introduction of the 1D-MkIIN, which is clearly nothing more than a minor update to the 1D-MkII, I'd say that the unification of the 1-series is not too far off and the next 1-series body will be both high resolution and high speed. So until the successor to the 1Ds-MkII is announced, accusations of rectum-speak are a bit premature.
By the way, the rumor I was referring to in my 7/15 post was about a "4D" that would have a 1.3X sensor and would be the same size as a 1D-MkII and be 12MP. One out of four isn't bad for a rumor, I suppose.
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It is interesting the arguments presented for full frame sensors. A recent poster mentioned the "superior Image" of FF??
I am not a wide angle user, but from what I have read, Canon is putting the cart before the horse. What is the point of a high resolution FF sensor when they don't have a lens that can do it justice!
It sounds like we would be better off with the 10-22 and 1.6 x crop, so that the failures of our lenses wouldn't be so obvious.
I think the 5D is just a 20D replacement, more megapixels(which we expect), in a body with similiar AF and build(which we expect), but with the added feature of FF(which only a real benefit to a narrow range of photographers), at a price way higher than the 20D(which we don't expect).
Want to bet image quality is very similiar to what already is on the table?(nothing new in other words)
Maybe this is why the hoopla prior to release, to try and drum up excitement for the camera.(why not just a buy a used 1Ds??)
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My original point (which Michael agreed with) is that passing on rumors isn't particularly productive given the fact that those who know what's really going on aren't talking (if they can't kee their mouths shut they are excluded from future advance information), and therefore those who disseminate the rumors generally don't have complete or accurate information. The rumor you passed on was no exception; while getting some things right, there are some significant discrepancies between the rumor and the actual camera. Specifically, the model number, sensor size, and where the new camera fits in Canon's DSLR lineup were incorrect. My original "talking out of their rectum" comment wasn't even directed at you, it was directed at people who start such rumors without knowing what they're talking about. Like your source.
Then when the 5D was introduced, some unfounded, snide, and uncouth comments were made re my original comment about the rumor (which Michael seconded, so if you want to attack me, you need to attack him also to be consistent). When I pointed out the inconsistencies between the full context of my statement and the snide comments directed my way, as well as the inconsistencies between the rumor and the actual camera, your response was to call me an "elitist douche bag". At no time did I ever direct any personal insults of that type your way; your choice to engage in that sort of ad hominem immature name-calling does not lend credibility to your claim to simply want an honest intellectual debate. I have on numerous occasions attacked the merits of ideas, but I do not engage in personal attacks against individuals. I have said that an idea or theory is stupid or has obvious flaws on numerous occasions, but I haven't called individual people stupid, not even you.
My definition of a civilized debate is discussing the subject without engaging in gratuitous personal attacks. What's yours?
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Can't wait to get my hands on one! SO glad I didn't upgrade my 10 to a 20D a couple months ago... :)
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Wienke is condescending, patronizing, overly opinionated, and often (usually?) given to making outlandish statements. Other than that he's a great guy.
Wienke is actually trying to keep a decent, & thoughtful, dialogue going. Personal insults are always cowardly, & I'm amazed at the roundhouse attacks on this poor guy. For goodness sakes, he's got a right to babble on if he wishes w/o being cobbered.
Forums remain lively because we tolerate every opinion. Those of you who are so quick to dance fancy words around those whose opinions you dislike are bringing down the overall tenor of any discussion. Come on, surely you're aware of this effect?
Wasn't this conversation about the new Canon 5D? Ah, that's my memory...
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To all,
If my posts to Jonathan offended anyone other than Jonathan, then mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa, actually. Please check my initial thread on the possible new Canon and my subsequent posts on this thread to see that I was simply only trying to pass on information to fellow photographers. I did not expect this thing to snowball into the ugliness that it became. In my post of August 23rd, I stated as much and asked if could we please just get back to photography.
Also, in the interests of fairness, I would definitely say the things I said in person and up front. I've never had a problem speaking my mind when I disagree with someone or find that I'm being insulted.
As for people staying away from the forums because of these kind of incidents, look no further than yours truly. I love to read about photography but the number of so-called experts who frequently contribute to many forums just leave me cold. You don't have to use name calling to still bully and belittle people and their ideas.
Having said that, I still believe this to be a wonderful place to exchange information and ideas about many aspects of photography. So, thanks to everyone for that.
If your name is not Jonathan, then please read no further.
To Jonathan,
You obvioiusly see no fault in yourself regarding this or any of your previous posts. You may rationalize it and say we're just boors or not up to your intellectual capacity. I'm sure you can find some reason to keep from turning the mirror on yourself. But once again, we can't all be wrong, all the time. And the fact that so many of us respond to you this way speaks more about you and the way you come across than it does about us. Now let's see if you can take the high road and let someone else have the last word for a change.
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Michael,
Now that the news is out officially in various places, e.g.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0508/05082209canoneos5d.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0508/05082209canoneos5d.asp)
will you be publishing a review of this camera? It looks as if it will appeal to 20D (and other 1.6x crop factor) owners if the predicted price is accurate. I'll certainly be looking to upgrade my 10D.
I would be especially interested in your views about the ability of the full frame sensor to expose lens weaknesses that are concealed by a 1.6x crop factor sensor.
Regards
Alan
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It looks like a fun camera--IF you need 13 mp and full-frame.
I'm real happy with my 20D--been using it for a year now and it's quite able for my needs --5fps for high school sports and a23 frame buffer. With a 16x lexar card, I often can take over 30 images before the buffer runs out.
The 5D looks like a winner, if it has what you need. Techno-lust is fun, but I got to laugh at some who keep asking "what should I do?" "Should I wait for the next model?" Those photographers should wait until the dslr's have beyond full-frame sensors that can capture a 30 mp image.
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A lot of people noticed that picture, why the heck they used the 17-40L at 17mm (exif) for an example of picture quality on FF I'll never know.
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The Borg Wienke has spoken... Resistance is Futile! All ass-talkers prepare to be assimilated!
Wienke slimes everyone with his gratuitous personal attacks and then denies that was his intent. People ask a question that doesn't require an opinion but he must provide one anyway. He loves to spew out his knowledge and wisdom like projectile vomit.
Wienke is an absolute expert on everything. Photoshopping images, Spanish documents, Canon's marketing plans, etc, etc. A modern-day Renaissance man. Newton, Gallileo, and Michalangelo all contained in one package.
Wienke is condescending, patronizing, overly opinionated, and often (usually?) given to making outlandish statements. Other than that he's a great guy.
(And I'm certain he'll correct any spelling or grammer mistakes I've made in this rant!)
I've only been here for a month, but that was more than enough time to find this out.
If posters here want to engage in a circle-jerk of speculation and rumour that is their business. Sometimes it's just fun and often there's actual information made available and shared as in the case of the "unlikely" Canon 5D. If you don't approve than Shut the F**k up.
Have a nice day!
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Don't worry - everyone lese here knows who was wrong and can't admit it
Thankfully, there is at least one person participating in this thread who knows how express a dissenting opinion without resorting to ad hominem "elitist douche bag" comments. I salute you, sir, for your civility.
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I am not a wide angle user, but from what I have read, Canon is putting the cart before the horse. What is the point of a high resolution FF sensor when they don't have a lens that can do it justice!
If you have access to the samples you will notice that 100mm macro picture is sharp all the way across. The big knock on Canon lenses has only been with regard to the WA lenses not the rest of the line, particularly the telephotos that are the reason most sports photographers use Canon.
John
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I just joined today but the threads in this post are disturbing. Calling someone a Borg or stating that people are talking out of their rectums is just too much.
Many forums have policies to prevent this kind of thing. Flaming, derogatory comments, and personal attacks are simply not tolerated. Maybe this kind of policy should be used here. Ban the troublemakers for awhile and let them cool off.
Someone please end this post. Start a new one on the Canon 5D.
Now, let's get back to photography.
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Expecting to learn useful things about digital cameras, instead I encounter elitist douchebags talking out [of] their rectums [recta for you second-declension neuter-noun afficionados]. It's enough to make you want to grant freedom of speech only to those who have taken the check-ride.
Can you guys really have that much time on your hands, or be that collectively witless?
I am put in mind of Mike's Rules for Living, which, if followed, will cover you in any social or business situation:
1. If it isn't yours, don't touch it without permission;
2. If you don't know, shut the f--- up;
3. Finish fights, but never start them.
All this over a camera? Sheesh.
Have a nice day, all.
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well, duh.
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My initial impressions report went online about the same time as your post.
As mentioned elsewhere on the forum, Canon usually provides review samples about 3-4 weeks before shipment, which in this case is scheduled for October.
Michael
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Well, let's see...
Someone speculated on 7/15/05 that: "the introduction of a model between the 1D-MkII and the 20D is highly unlikely."
The 5D seems to be that model.
Maybe that someone was just talking out of his rectum.
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Jonathan,
Guess what? I love being quoted out of context, as well.
"By the way, the rumor I was referring to in my 7/15 post was about a "4D" that would have a 1.3X sensor and would be the same size as a 1D-MkII and be 12MP. One out of four isn't bad for a rumor, I suppose. "
Let's see what I originally said:
"The photographer told me that he was recently speaking to a "Canon R&D guy I know in Europe." The guy works for Canon and told him that Canon's new Autumn DSLR will be a 12 Megapixel camera called the D40. It will be the newest camera in the line of D30, D60, 10D and 20D.
The sensor will "more than likely be larger, along the lines of the 1D MII size." (This would make 12 Meg more feasible)
The photographer proceeded to tell me that Canon always comes out with a rebate on the current model just before they announce the new model. SOP for them. This is to help move a large amount of bodies since people hold off purchasing the current model if a new one is going to be available soon. (And there is $100 rebate on the 20D right now)"
I then went on to list Canon previous release dates to support my hypothesis of a August announcement.
So what did I get right?
1) August Announcement
2) 12 Meg
3) Autumn shipping
4) Camera will be in the line of the D60, 10D, 20D, etc.
5) Fuller frame (1/2 point I suppose)
What did I get wrong?
1) 5D is the name not 40D
You seem to be fixated on telling me and anyone else whom you disagree with that we're talking out of our rectums. Yet clearly you're the one who is anal retentive. So please lighten up, you elitist douche bag.
Hugs & Kisses,
Heavysigh.
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the D2x was already shown to offer better image quality that a 1DsII in the corner of wide angles shots, I don't see how the lower speced 5D would become more of a thread to it. Those who saw the 17-40 sample will have to agree with me on this one. I really hope than the final body will perform better,
Me too. This fall-off in performance at the edges of FF DSLRs is a real worry to those of us used to the cropped format. Sure I'll be interested to take wider angle shots than I've ever taken before with my Sigma 15-30, but I'll be a little upset if I see fuzzy edges.
Whenever I see a Photodo style MTF chart showing a curve that takes a precipitous dive as steep as an Olympic diving champion's trajectory, from almost the exact point of the cropped edge of a 20D frame, I think of all those owners of FF DSLRs and the tremendous pressure there must be on them to spend far more on good quaity lenses than they initially spent on their camera body.
It looks as though the 5D will be slightly cheaper (or should I say less expensive) than the D2X. If it is, I wouldn't be surprised if Nikon lowers its price when the 5D starts shipping.
I'd be much happier if Canon had offered a 12MP cropped format with at least marginally better image quality than the D2X as well as a better price.
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I've heard of some very good old Nikon lenses too, like the 20mm f/4. Maybe some Nikon folk could tell us more about the history of Nikon wide angles.
Hi there,
I have heard of some people that were seeminly happy using a 17-35 f2.8 on their 1Ds.
Other classics with good reputation are the expensive 18 mm f2.8, 20mm f2.8, 24 mm f2.8.
Regards,
Bernard
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Don't worry - everyone lese here knows who was wrong and can't admit it
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We all know that the superior image created by FF DSLR would do this with Canon's wide zooms. Why the surprise? I'll deal with it.
Hi Boku,
Without entering the debate as to whether the 5D is a better camera than the D2X, I have to say that the "belief" in the value of FF uber alles, and in opposition with the facts, is getting close to the case Michael described so well in its article about Digital vs film.
A theoretical belief that FF is better is being defended against the facts showing that APS sensors probably have overall the upper hand.
- Today, there is not clear evidence that FF sensors are less noisy even at high ISO. A comparision between the noise of the 20D vs 5D will clarify this (although the 5D being one year younger, a small edge could just result from that),
- There is clear evidence that FF sensors have problems with wide angle lenses,
- APS sized sensors have clear advantages on the long end,
The only 2 things that I can agree with is that FF cameras provide some value for those looking for shallow DOF, and for those who are not willing to invest into digital lenses. Considering that FF cameras are inherently more expensive, I find the second argument rather dubious, but can understand the feeling.
For the rest, I don't see the "superior" image you write about below. If I were a Canon user, I would also have prefered a 12 MP 30D instead of the current FF 5D.
Regards,
Bernard
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The big knock on Canon lenses has only been with regard to the WA lenses not the rest of the line, particularly the telephotos that are the reason most sports photographers use Canon.
John,
Although I agree that Canon big guns are amazing lenses, their quality does probably have very little to do with their wide acceptance.
It mostly results from them providing USM years before their Nikon counterparts. The addition of VR and of some good DSLR did re-inforce this, but the initial move was mainly the result of good AF.
Regards,
Bernard
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There are more samples shot on the 5D by two Japanese photographers on this website:
http://www.canon-sales.co.jp/camera/5d/index.html (http://www.canon-sales.co.jp/camera/5d/index.html)
You have to be patient enough to find the pictures. If you look at the Japanese menu bar right at the bottom of the screen, it is the third one from the left. Click on it and "Gallery" appears in English. Then click on the image of either of the photographers and his portfolio starts loading.
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Thank you for your opinion which I respect.
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"Someone please end this post. Start a new one on the Canon 5D."
I agree MJohnJ, we should make a new post on canon 5D .. I look on this post to learn about the new camera .. I am actually planing on buying one .. 20D possible the 5D ..
David
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To Jonathan,
You obvioiusly see no fault in yourself regarding this or any of your previous posts. You may rationalize it and say we're just boors or not up to your intellectual capacity. I'm sure you can find some reason to keep from turning the mirror on yourself. But once again, we can't all be wrong, all the time. And the fact that so many of us respond to you this way speaks more about you and the way you come across than it does about us. Now let's see if you can take the high road and let someone else have the last word for a change.
Oh, save us, save us, please, from all the bad bad Jonathan posts. Cause, you know, none of us were able to cope before.
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But once again, we can't all be wrong, all the time. And the fact that so many of us respond to you this way speaks more about you and the way you come across than it does about us.
Yep. Even when every one of the people calling me insulting names is a newbie here with a single or double-digit post count. Criticisms from such sources do not impress me; it's very rare for people who start their participation in a forum by calling people "douche bags" to ultimately contribute anything meaningful or worthwhile long-term to a forum. Perhaps you and Tibor22 will be exceptions to that general principle, but I doubt it. I really don't care what you think of me; your posts so far are a clear indication that your respect and esteem is not worth cultivating. I care much more what people like Jack Flesher and Bob Kulon and Didger (God rest his soul) and Andrew Rodney and Bernard Languillier and others like them think of me, who consistently contribute informative, well written, and interesting posts here, and know how to disagree without being disagreeable.
In all my years of participation here, I have never engaged in the kind of name-calling and gratuitous personal insults that you and Tibor22 directed my way. And don't expect me to believe that you really intended that last paragraph for me alone; if that was really your intent, you could have emailed me, sent me an instant message, or PM'd me through this board. There's a link for each of those options under every one of my posts.
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Can we all have a group hug?
/hug
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I might be guilty of what has happened here (though I honestly didnt want to start all this, neither do I recall using any "names" or insults..)
You didn't start anything, and while you were critical of me, you certainly did not engage in the over-the-top name-calling and rudeness of heavysigh and Tibor22. I don't mind a frank discussion/debate, as long as it remains reasonably civil. You did, they didn't.
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is there any official USA or Canadian prices for the two new cameras yet?
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And I like how the experts on here said the 5D was just a photoshopped 10D, and if it is real, it won't be full-frame. Good call guys. :D
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Somebody over on Digital Camera Review posed a high-res 5D landscape shot from the Canon website, calling attention to the grass in the corners. I'm not as fussy as a lot of people, but the corners of that shot would not be acceptable to me; blades of grass, perfectly articulated towards the center of the shot, become a green blur. Is the same true with a 1DSMII? Another question -- I've heard that people have been using Contax wide angles on their Canon FF SLRs. Does this solve the wide-angle problem? Can the Contax lenses talk to the camera, or are they only usable in manual mode? In Michael's review, he sniped at Canon for a lack of easy mirror lock-up. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about, but it seems to me that Canon desperately needs some new wide angle lenses before *anything* else.
JC
(Nothing said above is meant to imply that the 5D can't make beautiful photographs, and I'm sure they will be used to do just that billions of times.)
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Try taking an enema
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I'm real happy with my 20D--been using it for a year now and it's quite able for my needs --5fps for high school sports and a23 frame buffer. With a 16x lexar card, I often can take over 30 images before the buffer runs out.
My 20D is also serving me well and I don't see myself upgrading until well into next year. My most pressing need is a decent tele lens so that will be where my money goes next.
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A lot of people noticed that picture, why the heck they used the 17-40L at 17mm (exif) for an example of picture quality on FF I'll never know.
Not that any other Canon WA are much better. I presume it was to show a true WA view.
As the 1.6 crop factor owners can get this using the EF-S 10-22 I assume this is targeted at 1.3 crop factor owners and those with a 10D that have not yet upgraded.
I am pleasently surprised to see full frame filtering down to "non-pro" bodies so soon. I predicted it would happen but did not expect it for another couple of years. Also the spot meter and RGB histogram looks useful (most missed 20D features).
As I have just got the 20D I will probably wait for the next generation of the 5D, but it makes planning the lens system simplier.
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Jonathan,
It's not about a dissenting opinion. An honest, intellectual discussion is always welcome. But looking through the forum and seeing the number of out and out arguments you engender, I can't help but feel we can't all be wrong. Frankly, you come off as obnoxious and insecure.
My original posting of June 30 was simply a good natured attempt to pass along information to fellow photographers about a possible new Canon DSLR. The first sentence of my thread started with "Please don't kill the messenger".
Your response was once again "rectum" talk and that I should take my thread off of The Luminous Landscape and over to DPReview. Who died and made you the arbiter of photography forums? It's not your website so once again, lighten up. If you don't have anything constructive to contribute, then fine. Feel free to be aloof and disagreeable. But don't act surprised if some of us think less of you for it.
And that's about all I have to say on the matter because really, who cares? This is both tiresome and a temptest in a teacup. I'm sure we'd all much rather read about photography, anyway.
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We all know that the superior image created by FF DSLR would do this with Canon's wide zooms. Why the surprise? I'll deal with it.
Hi Boku,
Without entering the debate as to whether the 5D is a better camera than the D2X, I have to say that the "belief" in the value of FF uber alles, and in opposition with the facts, is getting close to the case Michael described so well in its article about Digital vs film.
A theoretical belief that FF is better is being defended against the facts showing that APS sensors probably have overall the upper hand.
- Today, there is not clear evidence that FF sensors are less noisy even at high ISO. A comparision between the noise of the 20D vs 5D will clarify this (although the 5D being one year younger, a small edge could just result from that),
- There is clear evidence that FF sensors have problems with wide angle lenses,
- APS sized sensors have clear advantages on the long end,
The only 2 things that I can agree with is that FF cameras provide some value for those looking for shallow DOF, and for those who are not willing to invest into digital lenses. Considering that FF cameras are inherently more expensive, I find the second argument rather dubious, but can understand the feeling.
For the rest, I don't see the "superior" image you write about below. If I were a Canon user, I would also have prefered a 12 MP 30D instead of the current FF 5D.
Regards,
Bernard
Bernard,
Since I am commited the Canon system because I have a huge investement, my motivation is to get more pixels in the cheapest manner. For that, the 5D works. Whether or not a 5D or a D2X is technically better image maker really doesn't matter. I am not that tedious.
All I am trying to do is get to consistently sharp 16x24 prints without worrying about it. I am sure either will do and the differences are for the others to worry about.
My comment meant to state that the 5D will create a superior inage to what I have now. Although I said this was because of full frame, I meant because of resolution and the fact that I am certain that there would be no less or equal noise compared to my 20D. I went on further to state that I expected soft corner performance from 17-40 and would tolerate it.
When I stated that, the Nikon alternative never even entered my mind. I just have no time for the science any more. I barely have enough time for photography.
I appreciate your point though. I just have no way of dealing with agreeing with it or refuting it. It's plausible, I guess.
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Since I have the 17-40 and intend to spring for the 5D, I actually printed a 13x19 of the sample landscape JPEG. I knew full well the corners were soft. I cannot afford to get the 16-35 at this time, and I'm not so sure that it would be all that much better.
Based on the results of the print, I'll deal with the corner softness of the 17-40. On most scenes it will not be a problem.
We all know that the superior image created by FF DSLR would do this with Canon's wide zooms. Why the surprise? I'll deal with it.
Nevertheless, something like a razor-sharp 18mm f/4 L for, say $600, would be selling like hotcakes, no?
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..
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My definition of a civilized debate is discussing the subject without engaging in gratuitous personal attacks.
Right.
anyone willing to discuss this is by definition talking out of their rectum.
Yeah, right ,very civilised.
Such a camera is inconsistent with Canon's stated intentions regarding DSLR development and production, at least until the 1- series (1Ds and 1D mark whatever) is combined into a single high-speed, high resolution model. Until that happens, the introduction of a model between the 1D-MkII and the 20D is highly unlikely.
Yeah, you got that one right too!!.
the body could very well be a lightly-Photoshopped 10D
YEP...
a real document would not have the tech specifications in English and the headings in Spanish
Well, I happen to be spanish, and believe me, in Spain anything is possible...
For that much, I'd sell you my ex-wife!!!
Well, at least I agree with you on that one.. ::
Dont get me wrong Jonathan.I dont doubt of your great skills and knowledge,(your site is full of usefull info),but my point is that you seem to enjoy the freedom of posting whatever you feel like (which is good) ,whenever you like, even when completely wrong, and the truth is that more times than less your comments and answers to people that just ask things they dont know (unfortunately not allof us enjoy your wisdom)
or start threads just for the fun of it,are too harsh and patronizing for my taste.
Just rivers of cold technical data...no warmth.
As far as I see here could very well just be a robot behind your keyboard answering threads..
I dont mean to offend, but I do think sometimes you should ease up a bit man...
Excuse my poor english, sorry if I offended anybody or skiped any basic rule of forum beheaviour here.
PS.
By the way Jonathan, I have been wondering...
What the heck is your avatar??
Have a nice day.
Erik.
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When I stated that, the Nikon alternative never even entered my mind. I just have no time for the science any more. I barely have enough time for photography.
I appreciate your point though. I just have no way of dealing with agreeing with it or refuting it. It's plausible, I guess.
Hi Boku,
Yep, the whole goal was to take images, wasn't it?...
I understand your point completely, and since Canon didn't propose both a 12 MP APS and the 5D, the 5D seems to be the best option indeed.
Regards,
Bernard
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But, please don't think that kind of behavior is the norm here. I've never seen it before, though, I haven't been a member for all that long.
It is a recent phenomenon. I've patricipated in the forums here for over two years, and had extensive, vigorous, detailed, and long winded debates before (look up my DOF debate with Howard Smith as a prime example), but have never witnessed anyone being called called things like "elitist douche bag" before, nor witnessed or participated in discussions where anyone was told to shut the f*** up. There truly has been a drop in the civility level here; the line between vigorous debate and gratuitous personal attacks has clearly been crossed. I just hope that doesn't drive away people who would otherwise participate positively in thes forums.
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Can we all have a group hug?
/hug
...Absolutely!!
I might be guilty of what has happened here (though I honestly didnt want to start all this, neither do I recall using any "names" or insults..)
I just wanted to call the attention over what I believe is a (sometimes) excesive harshness in some answers. I might have confused this with "honest , intellectual discussion" or even "ardorous debate".
I apollogize for any inconveniences created to this forum and consider this item as "CLOSED". Lets get to the thing we like most and that unite us, like , er..."photography ardorous debate..."??
Happy shooting to u all.
Erik.
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The last paragraph in the last post entitled, "To Jonathan," is totally uncalled for. And is simply name calling, once again.
Enough.
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By the way Jonathan, I have been wondering...
What the heck is your avatar??
It's a close-up shot of a wolf spider face. Here's a slightly larger view:
(http://www.visual-vacations.com/images/SpiderFace.jpg)
Ah-Ha!
I could never quite figure that one out. My best guess was that it was some sort of tribal coconut mask... Now I now.
One additional factor is how poor a medium instant written communcation is (often in a foreign language). You have smileys, but they are a very poor replacement for our complex body language. This results in many misunderstandings that would just not happen in the open.
That's why - unlike Napoleon Dynamite's brother - I don't chat with hot babes on the internet. It's dangerous.
To all,
If my posts to Jonathan offended anyone other than Jonathan, then mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa, actually. Please check my initial thread on the possible new Canon and my subsequent posts on this thread to see that I was simply only trying to pass on information to fellow photographers. I did not expect this thing to snowball into the ugliness that it became. In my post of August 23rd, I stated as much and asked if could we please just get back to photography.
emphasis added.
That's not a real apology. The person you slung mud at is the one that the apology should be directed to first of all. An apology to the rest of us for degrading the discourse of these forums is secondary to that.
The fact that you can't apologize for that comment to the person you directed it to (Jonathan) you clearly are not truly sorry for your behavior.
If that is the case, I'd rather you not venture back to these forums as we don't need that sort of crap here. These forums are for mature and intelligent debate by mature and intelligent individuals.
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What happens to all the doubter's of the existence of this camera from the previous post? You guys will never learn. Manufacturers unofficially leak information about new products all the time. And it seems that new improved DSLR's are going to be released every year. Get used to it.
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To John Camp - Yes, you can use Zeiss, Olympus, Pentax, Leica, Nikon, and other lenses on your Canon body. Many people are using Zeiss lenses, especially on the 1Ds2. I don't know how this can "solve" the problem, since it's not a Canon lens, but in a sense, it DOES solve the problem of bad wide angle performance on full-frame digital. With an adapter, the lens must be focused wide open manually, then stopped down via the aperture ring. You can meter in Aperture Priority mode. The following lenses have excellent performance on a 1Ds2, with most of them having very good corner to corner sharpness:
Zeiss Distagon 21mm f/2.8 - The king of the world.
Zeiss Distagon 28mm f/2 - Very nice
Zeiss Distagon 28mm f/2.8 - Excellent, bargain lens, not as good as the f/2 at close focusing. I use it for infinity focus mostly.
Zeiss Distagon 18mm f/4 - Extreme center sharpness.
Olympus Zuiko 21mm f/2 - the closest you'll get to a Zeiss 21mm.
Olympus Zuiko 21mm f/3.5 - Good at infinity, stopped down.
Olympus Zuiko 28mm f/2 - Olympus' sharpest lens made for this system.
Olympus Zuiko 18mm f/3.5 - Virtually distortion free compared to the Zeiss 18mm, but not as sharp as the Zeiss in the center.
I've heard of some very good old Nikon lenses too, like the 20mm f/4. Maybe some Nikon folk could tell us more about the history of Nikon wide angles.
Anyway, have fun!
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So what did I get right?
1) August Announcement
2) 12 Meg
3) Autumn shipping
4) Camera will be in the line of the D60, 10D, 20D, etc.
5) Fuller frame (1/2 point I suppose)
What did I get wrong?
1) 5D is the name not 40D
...
So please lighten up, you elitist douche bag.
Hugs & Kisses,
Heavysigh.
Points 1 and 3 are Canon's customary time frame for fall camera introductions, so I don't see any great credit for correctly predicting those. I feel safe predicting that Canon will introduce camera models next spring, which will ship next summer, even though I have no insider knowledge whatsoever. It's just the way Canon does things. Regarding point 4, the 5D is clearly not in the same market segment or model line as the D60/10D/20D (note that it has a single-digit model number and is 2x the cost of the 20D, which is NOT being discontinued at this time) so your prediction in that regard is erroneous, as was your prediction regarding #5. Full frame is not the same as 1.3x. So you're still only 3/5 if you include the fairly obvious easy-to-guess points 1 & 3, but leave them aside and you're 1 for 3, which isn't all that stellar. I don't think my characterization of the accuracy of your information was particularly unfair.
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It mostly results from them providing USM years before their Nikon counterparts. The addition of VR and of some good DSLR did re-inforce this, but the initial move was mainly the result of good AF.
I would agree with that. And, from that point on, it was simply follow the leader. As in "Well, JoeBob the Sports Shooter uses a Canon. I want to shoot sports maybe I should too."
macgyver
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I just joined today but the threads in this post are disturbing. Calling someone a Borg or stating that people are talking out of their rectums is just too much.
Many forums have policies to prevent this kind of thing. Flaming, derogatory comments, and personal attacks are simply not tolerated. Maybe this kind of policy should be used here. Ban the troublemakers for awhile and let them cool off.
Someone please end this post. Start a new one on the Canon 5D.
Now, let's get back to photography.
Amen.
But, please don't think that kind of behavior is the norm here. I've never seen it before, though, I haven't been a member for all that long.
-macgyver
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Sherry Turkle wroke interesting things about this in her book "life on the screen".
Besides the lack of concern for physical retaliation, there is also the fact that the medium of communication affects people's personnality. This is true when using a foreign language, but also when using internet.
One additional factor is how poor a medium instant written communcation is (often in a foreign language). You have smileys, but they are a very poor replacement for our complex body language. This results in many misunderstandings that would just not happen in the open.
One last factor is a certain trash talk culture in some countries that probably seem cool for the people using them, but come accross as being plain rude for outsiders. Being direct and straight, a sub-form of the above, can be good, but can also be perceived as being agressive.
Regards,
Bernard
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You have completely missed the point. Nobody doubted that Canon was preparing to introduce new camera(s), but there were good reasons to doubt the specifics of some of the rumors. And many of the rumors turned out to be inaccurate.
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I think the 5D is a price point Killer. <4000$ for a full frame!?!?
nikon and minolta are tearing their collective hair out.
The 5D seems to be a very interesting piece of camera, but I don't see what would cause Nikon as a company to become desperate. I am not even talking about Nikon shooters who are fully aware of the remarkable quality of Canon gear.
Now, if you want to engage in some comparison between the D2X and the 5D... which your post seems to imply is needed:
- There are of course some advantages to FF if you are after very limited DOF (mostly not the case for landscape) and potentally at ISO above 800 (although I suspect based on the D50 noise behaviour that the D200 will surprise some in this area).
- For the rest, the D2x was already shown to offer better image quality that a 1DsII in the corner of wide angles shots, I don't see how the lower speced 5D would become more of a thread to it. Those who saw the 17-40 sample will have to agree with me on this one. I really hope than the final body will perform better,
- Granted, the price is about the same as that of the D2x, but the physical aspects of the body appear to be somewhat lower level, closer to a 20D than to a 1DsII IMHO.
- The real thing will be the comparison between the 5D and the D200 if the Nikon ends up being indeed 12.8 MP too.
Regards,
Bernard
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I am so gratefull to Mr.Reichman for this site!!
Much have I learnt here and much do I owe to him...but...
..if one thing I´ve learnt in this time here is that...
...trying to argue with Jonathan is an absolute waste of time..
Erik.
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The behaviour of people when they are anonymous is quite interesting. A group of people in a meeting rarely make a habit(well not that often :D ) of resorting to insults. On the internet it is a different story, maybe it is because the threat of physical retaliation is removed.
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The Borg Wienke has spoken... Resistance is Futile! All ass-talkers prepare to be assimilated!
You have just taken this forum to a new low. Regardless of your opinion, to which you are entitled to express, your message was very trashy and rude. Worst I ever seen here.
Feel better?
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By the way Jonathan, I have been wondering...
What the heck is your avatar??
It's a close-up shot of a wolf spider face. Here's a slightly larger view:
(http://www.visual-vacations.com/images/SpiderFace.jpg)