Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: tho_mas on September 10, 2009, 06:46:02 am
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http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Aus-Sinar...nar-Photography (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Aus-Sinar-wird-Sinar-Photography)
Google-Translation: http://tinyurl.com/o9kb4j (http://tinyurl.com/o9kb4j)
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http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Aus-Sinar...nar-Photography (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Aus-Sinar-wird-Sinar-Photography)
Google-Translation: http://tinyurl.com/o9kb4j (http://tinyurl.com/o9kb4j)
Does this mean that I will be able to put a Hasselblad 60 Mpx back on a Sinar M system?
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Am I imagining things or does this article imply that the Hy6 will continue?
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Am I imagining things or does this article imply that the Hy6 will continue?
my reading is that service for the Hy6 will be continued but for further development they will focus on "view cameras for studio photography and the specific cameras for architectural photography and documents."
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my reading is that service for the Hy6 will be continued but for further development they will focus on "view cameras for studio photography and the specific cameras for architectural photography and documents."
i read the same...
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So it is.
Thierry
my reading is that service for the Hy6 will be continued but for further development they will focus on "view cameras for studio photography and the specific cameras for architectural photography and documents."
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Absolutely where Sinar should be. Focusing on a niche market and being the best at it.
Edward
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So it is.
Thierry
The HY6 never had a chance.
No expensive camera system, 35mm to medium format, can make it on a professional level if it's not in rental and doesn't have a full lens line of autofocus lenses.
You can work around not having leaf shutters, you can do the uncomfortable without right angle grips, but simple things like prisms, wide angles, autofocus that is accurate and the ability to rent specialty items or backup in major markets isn't an elective, it's a must.
The HY6/AFI came out with a lot of fanfare, pdf's and promises, but it never had any penetration in the no excuses, heavy production professional world, because it had key elements missing.
This was true in 2008 more true today where production expectations have been doubled.
There was a period where all of us were willing to believe and take the chance that everything promised would come, but not anymore, it's just too competitive at all levels to take any chances.
Also Phase One wasn't on board with the HY6. The medium format market is too small to exclude anyone and the cameras and backs too expensive not to be complete the moment they are announced.
So they can do all the petitions they want, I'm sure a few collectors will hang on to their cameras but in the world of professional balls to the wall photography, for medium format it's Hasselblad cameras (maybe not always backs, but cameras), Nikon and Canon.
That's it and probably always will be.
The only exceptions to this is Leica who seems to have an affluent customer base and RED who right now offers a cinema style product that no one can match on price, though even RED has cameras in rental and using a lens mount that allows for almost any focal length needed.
BC
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in the world of professional balls to the wall photography, for medium format it's Hasselblad cameras (maybe not always backs, but cameras), Nikon and Canon.
Mamiya doesn't play a role in that market? (I've no idea...)
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Am I imagining things or does this article imply that the Hy6 will continue?
For me, it the opposite. It is the definitive funeral of the Hy6, behind assuaging comments.
I hope that the fate(spell) of Sinar Photography will not be same as this one of Agfa Photo.
PdF
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The HY6 never had a chance.
No expensive camera system, 35mm to medium format, can make it on a professional level if it's not in rental and doesn't have a full lens line of autofocus lenses.
You can work around not having leaf shutters, you can do the uncomfortable without right angle grips, but simple things like prisms, wide angles, autofocus that is accurate and the ability to rent specialty items or backup in major markets isn't an elective, it's a must.
The HY6/AFI came out with a lot of fanfare, pdf's and promises, but it never had any penetration in the no excuses, heavy production professional world, because it had key elements missing.
This was true in 2008 more true today where production expectations have been doubled.
There was a period where all of us were willing to believe and take the chance that everything promised would come, but not anymore, it's just too competitive at all levels to take any chances.
Also Phase One wasn't on board with the HY6. The medium format market is too small to exclude anyone and the cameras and backs too expensive not to be complete the moment they are announced.
So they can do all the petitions they want, I'm sure a few collectors will hang on to their cameras but in the world of professional balls to the wall photography, for medium format it's Hasselblad cameras (maybe not always backs, but cameras), Nikon and Canon.
That's it and probably always will be.
The only exceptions to this is Leica who seems to have an affluent customer base and RED who right now offers a cinema style product that no one can match on price, though even RED has cameras in rental and using a lens mount that allows for almost any focal length needed.
BC
This pretty much defines exactly why MF is a dead horse anyway. Selling cameras into a rental market for the impossible to please pro and his/her retinue of assistants who treat rental gear like disposable nappies is a good way to go broke ... hey gee ring ring dong dong - thats exactly what is happening to all the rental houses isnt it?
the Hy6 was just too late to the market. it is sad for people like me who actually bought into it - but hey if thats the worst thing that ever happens to me - I will be blessed. The fact is that the Sinar 75LVr is a damn good back, the Rollie mount lenses from Schneider are the best MF 6x6 glass I have used and the body is/was probably two or three firmware upgrades away from the best in the business. In the meantime it is a fun system to muck around with and shoot real photography - not the crapola dressed up as pro shooting that is overlit and over processed DROSS displayed on here by wannabe pro shooters.- gimme a break ( apologies to the few talented and patient peopel who do post- you know who you are)
As for Phase One yeah they make backs as good as hasselblad and Leaf and Sinar - so what? The total market was at its height 10K units global on rip -off prices and sorry phase One isnt any better than anyone else.
People make snide comments about quality companies in internet forums all the time - look at the typical smart alec nastiness about Seal being enthusiastic about a camera brand on another thread in this forum - internet forums are just not nice places , and internet chit chat from working pros is as useful to MF companies as tits on a bull. Who cares about what professional shooters want? I mean who cares? The faster the MF digital back makers recognise that the real market is EXACTLY where Leica is aiming at - the better their chances are of surviving.
hey nothing personal - I like your typical post- it is more sensible than the typical so called 'pro - shooter blather I laugh about on here.
PS Sinar - IF/WHEN you make an Artec - that uses an adapter system ala Alpa - to allow me to use ANY back I want to use - when I want to use it - I will buy one. Sorry I cant 'risk' 20K on a camera mount and two lenses - when the digitl back may not be around to be mounted in a year or three. NOT allowing for this basic functionaity was a fatal design error - much worse than the clunky tripod mount and lack of built in nodal point shooting calibration. I guess thats what you get when you listen too much to an architectural shooter who just shoots flat - no offence to the shooter btw - he does great work. But designing the best technical camera out there and then shutting out people who don't use your back or Leafs? WOW that was a really DUMB idea. -
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PS Sinar - IF/WHEN you make an Artec - that uses an adapter system ala Alpa - to allow me to use ANY back I want to use - when I want to use it - I will buy one. Sorry I cant 'risk' 20K on a camera mount and two lenses - when the digitl back may not be around to be mounted in a year or three. NOT allowing for this basic functionaity was a fatal design error - much worse than the clunky tripod mount and lack of built in nodal point shooting calibration. I guess thats what you get when you listen too much to an architectural shooter who just shoots flat - no offence to the shooter btw - he does great work. But designing the best technical camera out there and then shutting out people who don't use your back or Leafs? WOW that was a really DUMB idea. -
+ 1
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Peter,
may be you don't know it by now, but any back "Hasselblad V" mount can fit the arTec since quite a while now, and other mounts are planed and to come.
Best regards,
Thierry
PS Sinar - IF/WHEN you make an Artec - that uses an adapter system ala Alpa - to allow me to use ANY back I want to use - when I want to use it - I will buy one. Sorry I cant 'risk' 20K on a camera mount and two lenses - when the digitl back may not be around to be mounted in a year or three. NOT allowing for this basic functionaity was a fatal design error - much worse than the clunky tripod mount and lack of built in nodal point shooting calibration. I guess thats what you get when you listen too much to an architectural shooter who just shoots flat - no offence to the shooter btw - he does great work. But designing the best technical camera out there and then shutting out people who don't use your back or Leafs? WOW that was a really DUMB idea. -
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my reading is that service for the Hy6 will be continued but for further development they will focus on "view cameras for studio photography and the specific cameras for architectural photography and documents."
So if Sinar, Jenoptic, and Phase (Leaf) are not pursuing the Hy6/AFi platform moving ahead does that mean that the technology is available for some other group to pick it up perhaps for a song?
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Peter,
may be you don't know it by now, but any back "Hasselblad V" mount can fit the arTec since quite a while now, and other mounts are planed and to come.
Best regards,
Thierry
Including Hasselblad H3D?
It would be nice if we had the option of using the best back on the best cameras... the M/P3 I mean.
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Who cares about what professional shooters want? I mean who cares? The faster the MF digital back makers recognise that the real market is EXACTLY where Leica is aiming at - the better their chances are of surviving.
I don't know if your joking or being serious. We will soon see which approach was correct in as few as two years I would think. It is going to get interesting. Leica's current pyramid strategy (you know where you get the first celebrity who then gets other celebrities) might prove to be a good move for them. Then all the Annie Leibovitz's of the world can aspire to be like them and while they earn their way to greatness purchase M9 instead. The rest of us? Swamp water...
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I don't know in detail concerning the H3D and can't speak for Sinar, but I would guess that H/H2 are certainly planed.
Thierry
Including Hasselblad H3D?
It would be nice if we had the option of using the best back on the best cameras... the M/P3 I mean.
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Good news at last.
Now I hope Sinar will be able to build a Rollei AF Module for the M system. It is a shame that the 6008 lenses are orphaned now.
Yevgeny
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Peter,
may be you don't know it by now, but any back "Hasselblad V" mount can fit the arTec since quite a while now, and other mounts are planed and to come.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
Yes I understand that different mounts are being made - however, my point is that instead of fixed mounts ie specific to each brand- better would have been an adapter system -ala Alpa so that as a person changed from one back type to another they could just buy an adapter. eg I have two different adaptors for my Alpa gear. Why am I concerned? The arTec is a great piece of equipment that will OUTLAST any specific camera back manufacturer. My business is hedge Fund management - I like to have unpriced risk 'covered' -covering risk and providing flexibility is a high value added attribute from a potential purchaser's point of view- especially given what has occurred in the industry over the last year or so.
Hope you and your family are well.
Keith -
My point about rental palces isnt that they dont have a place in the world - it is that relying on making sales to rental studios or having a rental studio general avaliability everywhere is a very high cost business for the camera manufacturer ( service costs because equipment gets smashed) - much easier to just develop a business model around selling to the type of people despised by pro-photographers on Luminous Landscape - ie people that can afford to buy the best stuff because they like to.
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Keith -
My point about rental places isn't that they don't have a place in the world - it is that relying on making sales to rental studios or having a rental studio general availability everywhere is a very high cost business for the camera manufacturer ( service costs because equipment gets smashed) - much easier to just develop a business model around selling to the type of people despised by pro-photographers on Luminous Landscape - ie people that can afford to buy the best stuff because they like to.
Stocking rental doesn't cost the makers anything. The studios/rental houses lease them and have insurance, so if the gear is damaged insurance picks up the repair. The rental houses lease them.
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Stocking rental doesn't cost the makers anything. The studios/rental houses lease them and have insurance, so if the gear is damaged insurance picks up the repair. The rental houses lease them.
A rental price will reflect the total cost of providing the rental service plus a margin. there is no such thing as costless business Insuramce and leasing costs are important inputs into the equation
teh more expensive teh gear the more it iwl cost to insure and lease per unit of rental income dollar.
Leica couldnt care less who buys their stuff - as long as it doesnt cost them more to service it than the average cost of service per unit sold.
Useage will dictate average cost of service - and rental stuff is used more than signle owner stuff.
Abusage is more likely in a rental situation - just a fact of life ..
Bottom line is - how big do you think the pro market is for all manufactured MFD cameras?
Answer - itsy bitsy tiny weenie.
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My business is hedge Fund management - I like to have unpriced risk 'covered' -
AIG?
BC
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A rental price will reflect the total cost of providing the rental service plus a margin. there is no such thing as costless business Insuramce and leasing costs are important inputs into the equation
teh more expensive teh gear the more it iwl cost to insure and lease per unit of rental income dollar.
Leica couldnt care less who buys their stuff - as long as it doesnt cost them more to service it than the average cost of service per unit sold.
Useage will dictate average cost of service - and rental stuff is used more than signle owner stuff.
Abusage is more likely in a rental situation - just a fact of life ..
Bottom line is - how big do you think the pro market is for all manufactured MFD cameras?
Answer - itsy bitsy tiny weenie.
Peter I'm not sure you are seeing the big rental picture for the manufacturers (lighting, computers, monitors, backs, bodies, lenses, accessories etc.).
In general, a rental house/ studio will try to stay at the forefront, at least with backs, computers and peripherals (tablets, storage etc.), so it'll buy new kit every time there's a new model out
It will buy more than One at a time and often with spares and accessories
Through renting equipment, some photographers realise that for their business, it is better/ wiser to buy it
A rental house works with techs, assistants, retouchers, ADs and if they constantly see a P45+ or an Aptus 75S on set that works well, they will look for it/ recommend it/ demand it for the next shoot, from the next rental place
This creates an on-going PR and an on-going demand.
Regarding service etc. Rental backs, in general, do not require more service than those who sit in someone's glass cabinet. They are not bodies or lenses that need new shutters every XXXXX frames. The rental house may need a bit more support and a quick turnaround but this works both ways as the manufacturers benefit from valuable feedback and if the back and software do a good job then that's "free" marketing and the best one at that.
If someone drops a back and breaks it, then that's a chargeable repair - more income.
And of course if the rental place is a successful one, then the investment covers itself fairly quickly, regardless of costs of insurance, leasing etc.
Yair
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AIG?
BC
just add hedge hogs to your list of amateur/dentist/lawyers and investment bankers and dont sweat it ....
YAYA
everything you say is true about teh best rental /studio/gear places - it just isnt Leica's market. I don't have an opinion about the S2's chances of success it has much tougher competition than the M9....the M9 is competing against nothing in its space..
anyway good luck to both Sinar and Leica - they both make fantastic stuff...
Pete
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just add hedge hogs to your list of amateur/dentist/lawyers and investment bankers and dont sweat it ....
No photographer sweats what someone in a different profession earns, can buy or does.
Photography isn't our job, it's our life so quite honestly as myopic as this may sound a working professional photographer doesn't really care what a non professional photographer does to afford an expensive camera they carry to a country club, any more than we care that a Bentley can't be used as a grip truck.
For commerce we care that we can guarantee the shot and that means easily available backups and options (which means rentals). For art we care that a camera doesn't restrain us and that covers a lot of territory.
But make no mistake. The top photographers in our industry are more than capable of writing a check for the a complete HY6 system or that Leica S camera, but before they do, they need a reason and in regards to the HY6 I really didn't see that spending $50,000 was going to make any difference in the final image and now feel somewhat the same about the new Leica S.
I also didn't see that buying into a new system that isn't complete makes sense, not in the business climate we are in today.
Yair pointed it out as well as anyone the benefit of rentals to a maker and an end user. Acceptance in rentals means the camera is now one of the standards. If you can call fotocare, Samy's, Matphot and pick up a backup body or lens at any time for a project and they have an ample supply you know that it's a commercially viable product.
To put it in Hedge Fund speak, this means that photographers are also adverse to monetary risk and needless overhead.
To put it in professional photographer speak, we really don't give a damn what non photographers use or do for a living.
BC
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No photographer sweats what someone in a different profession earns, can buy or does.
Photography isn't our job, it's our life so quite honestly as myopic as this may sound a working professional photographer doesn't really care what a non professional photographer does to afford an expensive camera they carry to a country club, any more than we care that a Bentley can't be used as a grip truck.
For commerce we care that we can guarantee the shot and that means easily available backups and options (which means rentals). For art we care that a camera doesn't restrain us and that covers a lot of territory.
But make no mistake. The top photographers in our industry are more than capable of writing a check for the a complete HY6 system or that Leica S camera, but before they do, they need a reason and in regards to the HY6 I really didn't see that spending $50,000 was going to make any difference in the final image and now feel somewhat the same about the new Leica S.
I also didn't see that buying into a new system that isn't complete makes sense, not in the business climate we are in today.
Yair pointed it out as well as anyone the benefit of rentals to a maker and an end user. Acceptance in rentals means the camera is now one of the standards. If you can call fotocare, Samy's, Matphot and pick up a backup body or lens at any time for a project and they have an ample supply you know that it's a commercially viable product.
To put it in Hedge Fund speak, this means that photographers are also adverse to monetary risk and needless overhead.
To put it in professional photographer speak, we really don't give a damn what non photographers use or do for a living.
BC
Everyone has his point made correctly in one way or another. To me, I think professional camera is not designed for professionals, it is designed and developed for people who wants professional results, who want fine machined tools, who want reliable equipment, who want something to make him smile, and he does not need to live on photography, but he can still enjoy photography. Company like Sinar, or for the matter of many other company, produce special equipment with lots of functions and abilities that few consumer (include some seasoned professionals) ever explore its full potential. There is no shame professional photography cannot afford the latest tool and it is nothing wrong a dentist to buy a fine camera to make his day.
As long as a photographer is comfortable with his tools, happy with the result, then the camera company did their job. How success one company can be is not only just product, marketing, sales, it can be many different reasons. Sinar made and continue to make good product, but unfortunately not every time you get return on your best effort. Take Hy6 or Leaf AFi as an example, there are many arguments, analysis, studies, whatsoever it is, there are many comments made by people never use it and it is puzzle why those comments are more important to those who actually use it and happy with it. Contax 645 was a camera long discontinued, yet it is still perceive by many the best medium format camera made, I don't see Hy6 or AFi less capable, in fact may be the best medium format camera developed in recent years, the fact it eventually become discontinue does not mean it is a bad system, or the camera company who supports are not doing its job.
In a bad economic, in a cloudy medium format camera environment, we should encourage the company believe in itself, Sinar for example, decide to move forward rather than set aside. More user, regardless who they are, only makes the camera business better, and eventually benefit the consumer, regardless who they are.
Regards, K
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A rental price will reflect the total cost of providing the rental service plus a margin. there is no such thing as costless business Insuramce and leasing costs are important inputs into the equation
teh more expensive teh gear the more it iwl cost to insure and lease per unit of rental income dollar.
Leica couldnt care less who buys their stuff - as long as it doesnt cost them more to service it than the average cost of service per unit sold.
Useage will dictate average cost of service - and rental stuff is used more than signle owner stuff.
Abusage is more likely in a rental situation - just a fact of life ..
Bottom line is - how big do you think the pro market is for all manufactured MFD cameras?
Answer - itsy bitsy tiny weenie.
Mr. Bidneth-man you are not making sense. Are you trying to say that Leica will make less if they sell 20 S2's to Calumet for rental, as opposed to selling 20 S2's at the next Bang-Your-Hygenist-in-Vegas-Endodontist-Pussy-Palooza-Convention? Because you say the rental units will need "more support" because they will be abused rather than serving as a fetish object? If an S2 is smashed, dropped in salt water, etc, that is an insurance issue, not warranty.
I don't care how anyone makes money, hell, half of the pro togs I know have bad taste. I admire anyone who isn't a dilitante or a douchebag, even if they happen to be finance guys running Tremont or one of the Rye Select funds.
Edited to add: I see YaYa set it straight.
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Mr. Bidneth-man you are not making sense. Are you trying to say that Leica will make less if they sell 20 S2's to Calumet for rental, as opposed to selling 20 S2's at the next Bang-Your-Hygenist-in-Vegas-Endodontist-Pussy-Palooza-Convention? Because you say the rental units will need "more support" because they will be abused rather than serving as a fetish object? If an S2 is smashed, dropped in salt water, etc, that is an insurance issue, not warranty.
I don't care how anyone makes money, hell, half of the pro togs I know have bad taste. I admire anyone who isn't a dilitante or a douchebag, even if they happen to be finance guys running Tremont or one of the Rye Select funds.
Edited to add: I see YaYa set it straight.
My point is that Leica will make much easier dollars selling to well heeled buyers . It isnt a new idea - most of the best made stuff cant be made at a price to suit everyone by definition. I think that they have figured this out - which makes me happy - because I like their stuff.
The only reason I mentioned what I do for a living was in the context of risk management - re Sinars artec it was a specific point about a specific issue I hope Sinar will address - I dont really care what you or your "sweat the details ,I dont care about non photographers thing buddy thinks/says/utters/blathers or opines about - I am just well mannered enough to respond - sans bile and frothing of the mouth gnashing of teeth and other accouterments of the aggressive personality.
Hope this clears things up for you - I know some of you guys are rather slow - it comes with the territory I guess being woop arsed "pro shooters" an all..
Cheers.
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My point is that Leica will make much easier dollars selling to well heeled buyers . It isnt a new idea - most of the best made stuff cant be made at a price to suit everyone by definition. I think that they have figured this out - which makes me happy - because I like their stuff.
The only reason I mentioned what I do for a living was in the context of risk management - re Sinars artec it was a specific point about a specific issue I hope Sinar will address - I dont really care what you or your "sweat the details ,I dont care about non photographers thing buddy thinks/says/utters/blathers or opines about - I am just well mannered enough to respond - sans bile and frothing of the mouth gnashing of teeth and other accouterments of the aggressive personality.
Hope this clears things up for you - I know some of you guys are rather slow - it comes with the territory I guess being woop arsed "pro shooters" an all..
Cheers.
You seem so agro, and not "well mannered" at all. I know this isn't what passes for "well mannered" in the Commonwealth countries, so why the charade?
Let me set you straight: I'm responding to some inane line of unreasoned and sub par reasoning you laid out regarding sales to rental houses, which you do not (or did not) understand, and your arrogant attitude regarding brother Cooter's opinion. You respond by calling me slow. Really? I'm Slow? When you can't understand the rental business? Really? Because I'm slow. Really. I'll rewind, and say it again: You made a stupid, ignorant, illinformed, attitude laden comment. I responded, pointing out why you were WRONG. You respond by telling me that I'm slow. Are you sure you are running a Hedge fund and not a Ponzi? Tremont Capital? Because with your skills at attempting to shift a focus from your stupidity to mine, when all I did was point out, again, how stupid your comment was, well, that is the kind of skill that Bernie had. In spades. That is a sign of the "aggressive personality", as you so daintily put it, or a sociopath. And by "dainty", I mean you're a Big Cooter.
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You seem so agro, and not "well mannered" at all. I know this isn't what passes for "well mannered" in the Commonwealth countries, so why the charade?
Let me set you straight: I'm responding to some inane line of unreasoned and sub par reasoning you laid out regarding sales to rental houses, which you do not (or did not) understand, and your arrogant attitude regarding brother Cooter's opinion. You respond by calling me slow. Really? I'm Slow? When you can't understand the rental business? Really? Because I'm slow. Really. I'll rewind, and say it again: You made a stupid, ignorant, illinformed, attitude laden comment. I responded, pointing out why you were WRONG. You respond by telling me that I'm slow. Are you sure you are running a Hedge fund and not a Ponzi? Tremont Capital? Because with your skills at attempting to shift a focus from your stupidity to mine, when all I did was point out, again, how stupid your comment was, well, that is the kind of skill that Bernie had. In spades. That is a sign of the "aggressive personality", as you so daintily put it, or a sociopath. And by "dainty", I mean you're a Big Cooter.
I will leave you to your ranting...
Clearly Leica and Sinar should base their marketing and busienss strategy on ensuring enough rental houses carry their gear in case some hard working passionate artiste type who sweats the details but sometimes needs an emergency this or that can be helped out anywhere any time.
Or
they can sell as much of their stuff to to rental houses as they already do - but also perhaps think about targeting non professional sweat the detail passionate artistes etc - who just want to have fun.
These types of buyer just want stuff that works well enough to make a pretty landscape or architectural shot or even family snap.
Even more important to these types of buyer is the look and feel of the gear. Leica has always attracted the type of person who gets a kick out of holding their gear and using stuff of obvious quality - no matter that in the main they use the gear to make family snaps . Some people graduate from the occasional macro shot of a pretty flower to using technical cameras to make even prettier- flower shots. There is no telling what silly things people do with their cameras for fun and it doesnt matter.
Reading this forum following the S2 annoucenment - the number one criticism of the camera was that it was too expensive. I think this is a very strange thing to hear from so called professionals - too expensive. But I guess that that is true - I mean how many megapixels does one need to make a pic that fits into the same sized magazine spread that was aorund 30 years ago...not many...
another frequently discussed point is the growing importance of video and still becoming a secondary issue in advertising - this just underliens a smaller rather than larger market size for all the sweating professionals who sweat the details etc etc etc..
So in summary terms - I think leica is spot on with their approach to say that their market is for those who appreciate teh quality of their goods - and can afford their prices. Sinar cant do any worse by targeting the well heeled amateur - they like all companies broaden teh definition of their market.
too many posters in this forum too often summarize the amateur shooter as being dentist/lawyer/investment banker silly enough to buy this or that over the top expensive item - which should be the domain of professional shooters only - of course this is a ridiculous notion.
So again I say who cares what the so called pro shooter says- I care more about what the amateur shooter who really shoots for the love of photography thinks - and I am looking to buy gear from companies who give me the best service and products for my shooting needs .
You can now respond with another rant if you like..apparently rudeness has currency among some of you sweat the details artists.
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If one doesn't understand how pro rental works, that's fine, but leave it alone and don't dig in deeper.
Leica is marketing this camera as being for the professional. There is some cache in this, otherwise why would they market it so? In reality very few pros use Leica's, even in the upper echelons. Very few will use the S2. If Leica does not get S2's into rental, even fewer pros will use them. How long can Leica maintain this mystique of being a "pro" camera if pros don't use them? Will the non-pros who can afford them continue wanting them?
Yes, the S2 is too expensive for almost every working professional. It is unnecessary. This is not hard to understand.
As far as I'm aware Leica built a reputation a long time ago not as a fetish object but as a tool with a purpose for pro photojournalists.
Sinar was the main view camera system (at least in USA) among pros mainly because it was ubiquitous. Every rental place carried it. Not that I specifically looked but I can't remember ever seeing any piece of Leica equipment available for rental in any of the major markets. Hasselblad is everywhere and pros use/rent them, either by choice or convenience. The reality though is most use Canon now.
Seeing the recent trends I wonder how long it will be before the "pro" photographer is a thing of the past and photography returns to its roots - rich dilettantes and hobbyists shooting landscapes and friends. The emulation of the pro and the conceit of selling those prints fading eventually as well ...
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Going back to Sinar for a moment.... I remember reading somewhere that they had enough inventory of Hy6 cameras for a year's worth of sales. I have no idea how many cameras that is but what's going to happen to them now and did they ever release the version that did the in camera DNG processing? If those are being sold off somewhere at big discounts, I'd like to know!
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Going back to Sinar for a moment.... I remember reading somewhere that they had enough inventory of Hy6 cameras for a year's worth of sales. I have no idea how many cameras that is but what's going to happen to them now and did they ever release the version that did the in camera DNG processing? If those are being sold off somewhere at big discounts, I'd like to know!
As far as I understand it the in-camera processing of DNG's is actually in-back processing in the Sinar eSprit 65 back. This back can also be put on other cameras, not just the Hy6. That back is still listed for sale on my local distributor's website, with or without a Hy6 bundle. It's a very tempting back because of the 'DSLR' quality screen, low price and in-back DNG creation. But it uses microlenses, so wasn't for me because I sometimes use a tech camera.
Ben
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this is Sinars very nice looking digital back and I personally like it better than Phase, Leaf or Hassy
-> http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-2035-50-2174.html (http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-2035-50-2174.html)
all I can say is shame they couldn't survive to provide the sales support
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this is Sinars very nice looking digital back and I personally like it better than Phase, Leaf or Hassy
-> http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-2035-50-2174.html (http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-2035-50-2174.html)
all I can say is shame they couldn't survive to provide the sales support
What do you mean? They're still alive and well - I got support from them just last week. You can buy any of their products today as far as I know, and they are working on software improvements now and who knows what else in the future. To me the future looks good for Sinar and all users of their gear. I can't see any reason to not buy this back if it suits you.
Ben
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What do you mean? They're still alive and well - I got support from them just last week. You can buy any of their products today as far as I know, and they are working on software improvements now and who knows what else in the future. To me the future looks good for Sinar and all users of their gear. I can't see any reason to not buy this back if it suits you.
Ben
are you saying they're planing to continue to further develop DBs because I don't think I am the only one who read that they are focusing on specialty cameras only!
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are you saying they're planing to continue to further develop DBs because I don't think I am the only one who read that they are focusing on specialty cameras only!
Perhaps not - Until there is a press release in English I don't know. The google translation of the Photoscala article was a bit dodgy. There was this translated line: "Sinar, Jenoptik AG wants to continue serving with Digital Photography One-and multi-shot backs." But it did say before that that they wanted to focus on analog and digital camera systems.
I was mainly reacting to your comment about 'they couldn't survive' like they had gone out of business.
But anyway I would think they would support past products they have sold, so I wouldn't be concerned about support if I bought the eSprit back.
Ben
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I was mainly reacting to your comment about 'they couldn't survive' like they had gone out of business.
my post is obviously referred to the associated link I posted (digital backs) not specialty cameras or Sinar in general
anyways no hard feelings I just thought Sinarback eSprit 65 LV is the best designed DB I've seen so far
and I thought why stop making it!
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So again I say who cares what the so called pro shooter says-
Your might be right, but let's talk about things you know about.
What kind of calculator do you use?
BC
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Good news for current and future Sinar owners here (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09091505sinarphotography.asp)
but this time since their primary goal is making cameras
they should let Phase 1 attach to all of their Cameras including Sinar Hy6
and simply start making money.
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Good news for current and future Sinar owners here (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09091505sinarphotography.asp)
One quote from the press release quoted at http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09091505...photography.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09091505sinarphotography.asp)
"The continuation of the Hy6 medium-format camera is currently under negotiation, but the existing business alliance guarantees long-term technical support."
Maybe the new manufacturing arm Femron AG (a creation of former Sinar management?) is negotiating to buy the assets of F&H relevant to Hy6 manufacture.
Does anyone know why companies get split into manufacturing and design/sales pieces this way? (like the Rollei/F&H split.)
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BJL,
Sinar's factory has always done very high end machining for other clients outside of their own photo business. My guess is the owners of Fenron are looking to capitalize on that business as well as the work they will do for Sinar Photography.
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,
Sinar's factory has always done very high end machining for other clients outside of their own photo business. My guess is the owners of Fenron are looking to capitalize on that business as well as the work they will do for Sinar Photography.
Thanks; that makes sense. The manufacturing part might then be better insulated from possible bad fortunes for the Sinar camera business by the option of shifting emphasis to other markets if needed. I believe that F&H operated like that too ... not that it helped.
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the full sinar press release is published here as a pdf (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2076&cat=48) download.
Its particularly good news for Rollei Hy6 and Leaf AFi users as they now have a repair and support facility.
edwin
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the full sinar press release is published here as a pdf (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2076&cat=48) download.
Its particularly good news for Rollei Hy6 and Leaf AFi users as they now have a repair and support facility.
edwin
Excellent news Edwin - thanks for posting.
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the full sinar press release is published here as a pdf (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2076&cat=48) download.
Its particularly good news for Rollei Hy6 and Leaf AFi users as they now have a repair and support facility.
edwin
Allways the same bla-bla. And there is nothing new on the Sinar's site.
PdF
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Dear Philippe,
Knowing the people left at Sinar, I don't understand this as "Bla-BLa", rather a strong commitment to their customers and the necessary confidence to continue providing the same kind of products and service Sinar is used to.
I find it remarkable that people whom passion is photography are still willing to provide the ultimate tools for photographers in a time where less is considered as good enough.
Best regards,
Thierry
Allways the same bla-bla. And there is nothing new on the Sinar's site.
PdF
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Dear Philippe,
Knowing the people left at Sinar, I don't understand this as "Bla-BLa", rather a strong commitment to their customers and the necessary confidence to continue providing the same kind of products and service Sinar is used to.
I find it remarkable that people whom passion is photography are still willing to provide the ultimate tools for photographers in a time where less is considered as good enough.
Best regards,
Thierry
I completely agree with that statement Thierry but do hope that the people left will not make the same mistake as many in this industry already have made.
Poor communications. A website is where most people will go to first these days, it is amazing how bad these companies (it is not just Sinar) are using this medium.
How hard is it to type a statement and put it on your website? Assign 1 person and make it his sole task to put something about what you are doing on your website once every week (make your employees read it as well).
Just thinking out loud here. I believe this will take away much of the uncertainty as well.
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I completely agree with you (and Philippe), websites and the power of the net are still not taken seriously, by many companies, included Sinar.
Many, included at Sinar still believe that it has so little and minor influence on a potential buyer that one can become desperate in trying to change the minds, and I know what I am speaking about.
Best regards,
Thierry
I completely agree with that statement Thierry but do hope that the people left will not make the same mistake as many in this industry already have made.
Poor communications. A website is where most people will go to first these days, it is amazing how bad these companies (it is not just Sinar) are using this medium.
How hard is it to type a statement and put it on your website? Assign 1 person and make it his sole task to put something about what you are doing on your website once every week (make your employees read it as well).
Just thinking out loud here. I believe this will take away much of the uncertainty as well.
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I completely agree with you (and Philippe), websites and the power of the net are still not taken seriously, by many companies, included Sinar.
Many, included at Sinar still believe that it has so little and minor influence on a potential buyer that one can become desperate in trying to change the minds, and I know what I am speaking about.
Best regards,
Thierry
Dear Thierry,
Please excuse me when I'm too agressive. But the "official" communication of Sinar comes one week after the different photographic websites. In French: "Ce sont des figues après Pâques".
But Sinar is still living. And that is the most important for people - like me - who love them.
PdF
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I understand, Philippe, no harm.
But ..., the communication on the "different websites" comes from Sinar and is the official one, actually: at the end it is important that information is communicated somewhere, although one should may be first use one's own tools, agreed.
Keep well,
Thierry
Dear Thierry,
Please excuse me when I'm too agressive. But the "official" communication of Sinar comes one week after the different photographic websites. In French: "Ce sont des figues après Pâques".
PdF
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I find it remarkable that people whom passion is photography are still willing to provide the ultimate tools for photographers in a time where less is considered as good enough.
Best regards,
Thierry
Theirry,
I don't know why you find this remarkable, your customers have the same commitment.
I hear this on this section of the forum all the time, talking about the ultimate image quality, if any photographer uses anything less than camera type A, or Brand B, they just don't care about the quality of what they deliver and that is 180 degrees from the truth in almost every instance.
I can run you off a list of about 20 good photographers that have drastically slowed down in their use and purchase of specialty cameras and spend more time with dslrs and it's not because they lack the will or the inclination to invest and produce the very best work possible.
There is a huge amount of downward pressure on photographers and not just this year, it's been coming for a long time.
Few projects go through without estimate revises, few estimate revises are set in stone, so every photographer I know is working double speed for less than a few years ago, sometimes triple to quadruple speed and regardless of this they don't have the luxury to look down at little lcd's that are non readable, shoot with cameras and software that is temperamental, constantly stay abreast on what software works with what operating system with what camera back, or get caught out with 3 to 4 images with pattern moire that takes a lot of money in post work to fix. They just can't take the chance, not when your moving large crews to three locations a day, shooting a dozen or so set ups on each location.
I'm sure the good hard working people at the specialty camera companies care about what they produce but it's not just Sinar, Leica, Hasselblad and Phase that puts pride in their work. I'm sure that extends to Canon and Nikon workers also, but I can promise you without a doubt it applies to photographers.
The photographers I know don't do this as a "job" and none I know get a weekly paycheck. They do this with a passion and spend every waking moment and most of their "expendable cash" on their careers. I don't know a photographer, stylist, makeup artist, model, set builder, gaffer (this list can go on for a week) that doesn't routinely reschedule vacations, miss funerals, birthdays, anniversaries, (this list can also go on for a week).
The photographers I know, have absolutely no desire to produce anything beyond "ultimate" image quality, but the ones I know that work a lot will not spend a single penny on anything that is not complete today. We've all been down that road of pdf promises, waited around for things that never happened and today the only response I have is call me when your really ready, not almost ready.
I've know a lot of camera companies, shot for a few, talked to most of them and all I can say is they may care about their product but most (actually all of them) would rather hear what is good about their product and few want to address what is even close to a negative, because in the realm of specialty camera companies if that wasn't true, their would be 900,000 pixel lcds, in camera jpegs, software that didn't take a class to learn and better prices.
Actually the price thing is what throws most photographers. We went along for years thinking digital backs had to be a certain price with a long list of limitations, then Hasselblad cut the prices across the board, everybody followed suit and I don't know what most photographers thought but I know the first thing that raced through my mind was great, I paid way too much.
Photographer's that are the target market for digital backs and specialty cameras have been asking for the same thing for years and the response 99% of the time has been more megapixels. Period.
The one single exception to this was that Sinar HY6 package with the good lcd that processed in camera jpegs and rotated on an Hy6, though I guess that is long gone but with all these pdfs, announcing new Sinar companies, I can't tell if it is still actively sold . . . can you? . . . will there ever be a 35mm and 110 mm lens for that camera that autofocuses because I can't tell . . . can you?
If medium format companies really knew their market every one of them would have a medium format equivalent to a Canon 85mm lens, but only one, Hasselblad has an up to date lens that falls within that range. If you don't think that's important try shooting portraits, retail fashion, anything full length in a modern interior location and you'll find 80mm stretches and doesn't compress enough, 140mm to 150mm just doesn't allow you to fit within the space.
But let's get down to where the rubber meets the road. In the last 6 months would you personally have spent $26,000 for that hy6 31mpx camera, another $10,000 for lenses knowing the lenses and accessories are over a year late, knowing the software was 8 months late, knowing that the company was laying off people?
Since you previously worked for Sinar and to keep this post relevant, the truth is sinar made good product and had a good professional name, but also had some of the worst marketing on the planet. Getting instant information from a website is almost impossible, finding the right person to talk to was even harder and most of the Sinar dealers were not that well informed and even the dealers that knew their stuff would admit that on a lot of items and questions they just had no answer.
So regardless of what the camera companies, their respective reps, dealers think no photographer worth their salt wants to shoot with anything but the best, but no photographer that works at any decent level of production doesn't know that the most important thing they do is capture the shot, do it professionally, deliver on time and stay on budget.
A friend who is a great lifestyle photographer sent me a jpeg yesterday from a large production lifestyle shoot. Really good photographer, really great shot and it's done with a 5d2. Now this photographer owns medium format, can easily afford newer more expensive cameras, but if you could see this series of photography and tell me what is lacking or was missed by not using the "ultimate" quality camera, then you got a lot sharper eyes than me.
Keep in mind the people that post here, the ones that invested in medium format had no desire to move to other platforms as long as the equipment kept up with their client's demands. If it did then I'm sure they bought a higher resolution back. If not, well you know the answer to this.
IMHO
BC
P.S. I apologize for the long post.
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+1 @ bcooter
I saved your post under: Lesson 1 (no nonsense)
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bcooter,
I can sign your post as well, because you are right, obviously. But please:
- I did not say others having passion for photography are not committed: I wish simply one stops to continuously denigrate or criticize people who are simply doing their job and are prone to mistakes or imperfections like any other. This forum is much inclined to point fingers instead of thumbs up. And I DO find it remarkable that people at Sinar (like in any industry or job) continue to be committed, and I say it, when it would be easy to simply give up, turn the page and look for other, easier and more comfortable jobs.
It is easy to say and write "non-sense" from one's comfortable seat and without knowing what those people have been going through: for me it deserves "thumbs up" and it is not forbidden to say it, nor is it forgetting that there are millions of others, in all fields, who are as well and as much committed. Jeez, those people have not "ripped off" customers from their money the way many in this world have been ripped off by institutions or individuals without scruples.
Sinar has been presented here and elsewhere too often as the typical example of why things go bad and how it should not be done. Though I can subscribe to many of these critics, I am not sure if all of those writing down those critics are having all the facts and truths in their hands to do so, they simply believe they have it.
- My remark about "ultimate TOOLS" was less about quality than about a "system": there STILL is (and never was) no other company in the world proposing a complete set and line of products and accessories for each type of job.
- YES: the Sinarback eSprit 65 is still sold actively ("with the good lcd that processed in camera jpegs and rotated on an Hy6").
- "But let's get down to where the rubber meets the road. In the last 6 months would you personally have spent $26,000 for that hy6 31mpx camera, another $10,000 for lenses knowing the lenses and accessories are over a year late, knowing the software was 8 months late, knowing that the company was laying off people?":
yes, I would have, would I need it for my work, for the simple reason that I know the company and because I know that there are other lenses, in fact over 45 different ones, fitting the Hy6, included "fast portrait lenses" like a 110mm.
Thierry
Theirry,
I don't know why you find this remarkable, your customers have the same commitment.
I hear this on this section of the forum all the time, talking about the ultimate image quality, if any photographer uses anything less than camera type A, or Brand B, they just don't care about the quality of what they deliver and that is 180 degrees from the truth in almost every instance.
I can run you off a list of about 20 good photographers that have drastically slowed down in their use and purchase of specialty cameras and spend more time with dslrs and it's not because they lack the will or the inclination to invest and produce the very best work possible.
I'm sure the good hard working people at the specialty camera companies care about what they produce but it's not just Sinar, Leica, Hasselblad and Phase that puts pride in their work. I'm sure that extends to Canon and Nikon workers also, but I can promise you without a doubt it applies to photographers.
The photographers I know don't do this as a "job" and none I know get a weekly paycheck. They do this with a passion and spend every waking moment and most of their "expendable cash" on their careers. I don't know a photographer, stylist, makeup artist, model, set builder, gaffer (this list can go on for a week) that doesn't routinely reschedule vacations, miss funerals, birthdays, anniversaries, (this list can also go on for a week).
The photographers I know, have absolutely no desire to produce anything beyond "ultimate" image quality, but the ones I know that work a lot will not spend a single penny on anything that is not complete today. We've all been down that road of pdf promises, waited around for things that never happened and today the only response I have is call me when your really ready, not almost ready.
I've know a lot of camera companies, shot for a few, talked to most of them and all I can say is they may care about their product but most (actually all of them) would rather hear what is good about their product and few want to address what is even close to a negative, because in the realm of specialty camera companies if that wasn't true, their would be 900,000 pixel lcds, in camera jpegs, software that didn't take a class to learn and better prices.
Actually the price thing is what throws most photographers. We went along for years thinking digital backs had to be a certain price with a long list of limitations, then Hasselblad cut the prices across the board, everybody followed suit and I don't know what most photographers thought but I know the first thing that raced through my mind was great, I paid way too much.
Photographer's that are the target market for digital backs and specialty cameras have been asking for the same thing for years and the response 99% of the time has been more megapixels. Period.
The one single exception to this was that Sinar HY6 package with the good lcd that processed in camera jpegs and rotated on an Hy6, though I guess that is long gone but with all these pdfs, announcing new Sinar companies, I can't tell if it is still actively sold . . . can you? . . . will there ever be a 35mm and 110 mm lens for that camera that autofocuses because I can't tell . . . can you?
If medium format companies really knew their market every one of them would have a medium format equivalent to a Canon 85mm lens, but only one, Hasselblad has an up to date lens that falls within that range. If you don't think that's important try shooting portraits, retail fashion, anything full length in a modern interior location and you'll find 80mm stretches and doesn't compress enough, 140mm to 150mm just doesn't allow you to fit within the space.
But let's get down to where the rubber meets the road. In the last 6 months would you personally have spent $26,000 for that hy6 31mpx camera, another $10,000 for lenses knowing the lenses and accessories are over a year late, knowing the software was 8 months late, knowing that the company was laying off people?
Since you previously worked for Sinar and to keep this post relevant, the truth is sinar made good product and had a good professional name, but also had some of the worst marketing on the planet. Getting instant information from a website is almost impossible, finding the right person to talk to was even harder and most of the Sinar dealers were not that well informed and even the dealers that knew their stuff would admit that on a lot of items and questions they just had no answer.
So regardless of what the camera companies, their respective reps, dealers think no photographer worth their salt wants to shoot with anything but the best, but no photographer that works at any decent level of production doesn't know that the most important thing they do is capture the shot, do it professionally, deliver on time and stay on budget.
A friend who is a great lifestyle photographer sent me a jpeg yesterday from a large production lifestyle shoot. Really good photographer, really great shot and it's done with a 5d2. Now this photographer owns medium format, can easily afford newer more expensive cameras, but if you could see this series of photography and tell me what is lacking or was missed by not using the "ultimate" quality camera, then you got a lot sharper eyes than me.
Keep in mind the people that post here, the ones that invested in medium format had no desire to move to other platforms as long as the equipment kept up with their client's demands. If it did then I'm sure they bought a higher resolution back. If not, well you know the answer to this.
IMHO
BC
P.S. I apologize for the long post.
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Wish NEW Sinar provide new digital back (at least FULL Frame 645 sensor) for AFi/Hy6 users. Leaf Imaging is unwilling to do that.
Leaf has been making its backs in a variety of mounts including the discontinued Contax 645AF, so I would expect them to keep making new backs in versions for use with Hy6 bodies, even if Leaf is no longer selling its version of the Hy6 body; even if no-one is selling Hy6 bodies anymore.
Has the "New Leaf" announced otherwise, that its backs will no longer come in versions for the Hy6?
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Has the "New Leaf" announced otherwise, that its backs will no longer come in versions for the Hy6?
As of now, Leaf Imaging does not offer any back for the AFi/Hy6.
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I was a Sinar devote in the days of shooting film. In fact every other photographer I knew, was a Sinar user. But today, all of them shoot with a 35mm DSLR. I am always looking at the MF market closely because for myself, I would like to have a MF camera to shoot with for my personal work but they still seem too cumbersome and compromised. Maybe the Leica S2 will change that but professionally I just don't need one.
I just don't understand how a company like Sinar can stay in business competing in such a miniscule market in today's world. Hope i'm wrong because they truly made excellent cameras.