Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Jim2 on September 07, 2009, 11:35:49 pm
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I love shooting landscape and at this stage still learning and enjoying it very much. My current gear are 1ds mk3 + 24-105. I've been wondering about getting a canon 24mm TS lens but also wondering whether I should bite the bullet and get cambo x2 or the new arca m line 2, or even go with mfdb, taking aside price consideration for a moment.
My only concern about going cambo / arca or even mfdb gear is the weight. I am ok carrying my current gear + tripod but I'm wondering how much more hassle it would be to lug the bigger stuff around because not only the hiking weight to consider but also the ability to carry them on the aeroplane with my laptop as well.
On the other hand I'd love to be able to print big and hoping to capture some nice stuff - it's all part of learning and the joy of photography. I currently only have a 24" printer but eventually might get a bigger one, one day.
Thanks for the advice / thoughts on the matter.
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I love shooting landscape and at this stage still learning and enjoying it very much. My current gear are 1ds mk3 + 24-105. I've been wondering about getting a canon 24mm TS lens but also wondering whether I should bite the bullet and get cambo x2 or the new arca m line 2, or even go with mfdb, taking aside price consideration for a moment.
My only concern about going cambo / arca or even mfdb gear is the weight. I am ok carrying my current gear + tripod but I'm wondering how much more hassle it would be to lug the bigger stuff around because not only the hiking weight to consider but also the ability to carry them on the aeroplane with my laptop as well.
On the other hand I'd love to be able to print big and hoping to capture some nice stuff - it's all part of learning and the joy of photography. I currently only have a 24" printer but eventually might get a bigger one, one day.
Thanks for the advice / thoughts on the matter.
I've been shooting landscapes with the 5D, then 1DsMk3 and 5D mk2. With the best lenses, I have fabulous 30x40, and 40x60" prints. I have even printed up to 8' wide for one client. For many of these I used Leica R lenses with adapters although some of the newest Canon L lenses are now showing great quality. Now although I have had good results with this setup, I don't think it would be as good as a MF 40-60MP back on a Hasse or Phase with good optics. The problem for me is; I have felt that both the Hasse and Mamiya cameras are just not as good as my old MF gear and the cost is ridiculous. I have thought about a small view camera with a Phase back but just can't justify the expense and trouble it would be to shoot with.
You may want to wait and see just how good the Leica S2 is. It may just be the perfect answer to many of us looking for a MF system with the quality of the old Hasse or Contax etc. For a 24" printer, the Canon 1Dsmk3 should be fine with the new 24mm Shift lens and a few other of the newest Canon L lenses. You may find that mastering Lightroom and Photoshop to bring out the best in your images will be more important than a larger sensor.
Not sure if that answers your question but it's my thoughts on the matter.
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I'm interested in playing with / using tilt shift ala view cameras, mainly to get better front to distant focusing without stopping down. The images I've seen from the "masters" using 8x10 are just breathtakingly amazing! Granted it's not just the camera, but I doubt if a similar 'wow' effect can be achieved with slr?
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i don't think the 24-105 is the best landcape lens - although i've used it as such with the 5D2 for prints to 17x25. The 50 1.4, 100 Macro, and other primes will give significantlly results, and if you have static subjects you can stitch to whatever resolution you want. I'd be very reluctant to give up the flexibility and low light capability of the 5 D2 for MF.
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I'm interested in playing with / using tilt shift ala view cameras, mainly to get better front to distant focusing without stopping down.
With specialized lenses like the T/S's, you may want to borrow or rent one to try out before buying. A lot of landscape photography can be accomplished without using one.
Also, keep in mind that landscape is not just about wide-angle vistas - telephotos also play a big role, often to pick out and isolate details.
Paul
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I'm interested in playing with / using tilt shift ala view cameras, mainly to get better front to distant focusing without stopping down. The images I've seen from the "masters" using 8x10 are just breathtakingly amazing! Granted it's not just the camera, but I doubt if a similar 'wow' effect can be achieved with slr?
A tilt/shift lens can allow you to increase DOF, and the shift can also be used to correct perspective in some compositions. I think they're definitely a useful tool for DSLR landscape and architecture shooters.
But to get that large-format look with the in-your-face foreground and massive depth, you're going to have a hard time because those LF guys are using rear tilts to get that effect. Front tilts have very little affect in perspective, but the same is not true for rear tilts. Tilting back the rear standard really emphasizes the foreground and makes it loom. If you ever get a chance to play around with a view camera give it a try and you'll see what an advantage they have for that type of composition.
Unfortunately even a lot of the "digital" view cameras sacrifice rear tilts in the name of size/weight and precision. For instance the Arca-Swiss M-Line 2 only has front tilt/swing and rear shift/rise/fall. Which is still much more flexible than a tilt/shift lens on a DSLR, though.
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I also find SLR tilt/shift lenses to be just as difficult to use as real view cameras. SLRs benefit from a bright, erect image, but it's a tiny image that is difficult to magnify. Live View can help, but it's still a bit of a struggle to fully exploit those lenses. And as per the other posters, none of the T/S lenses are as capable of full control as a true view camera. But, the results can be terrific if you do the grunt work.
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A tilt/shift lens can allow you to increase DOF, and the shift can also be used to correct perspective in some compositions. I think they're definitely a useful tool for DSLR landscape and architecture shooters.
But to get that large-format look with the in-your-face foreground and massive depth, you're going to have a hard time because those LF guys are using rear tilts to get that effect. Front tilts have very little affect in perspective, but the same is not true for rear tilts. Tilting back the rear standard really emphasizes the foreground and makes it loom. If you ever get a chance to play around with a view camera give it a try and you'll see what an advantage they have for that type of composition.
Unfortunately even a lot of the "digital" view cameras sacrifice rear tilts in the name of size/weight and precision. For instance the Arca-Swiss M-Line 2 only has front tilt/swing and rear shift/rise/fall. Which is still much more flexible than a tilt/shift lens on a DSLR, though.
Wow thanks for this info. What about Cambo Ultima 35?
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I love shooting landscape and at this stage still learning and enjoying it very much. My current gear are 1ds mk3 + 24-105. I've been wondering about getting a canon 24mm TS lens but also wondering whether I should bite the bullet and get cambo x2 or the new arca m line 2, or even go with mfdb, taking aside price consideration for a moment.
My only concern about going cambo / arca or even mfdb gear is the weight. I am ok carrying my current gear + tripod but I'm wondering how much more hassle it would be to lug the bigger stuff around because not only the hiking weight to consider but also the ability to carry them on the aeroplane with my laptop as well.
On the other hand I'd love to be able to print big and hoping to capture some nice stuff - it's all part of learning and the joy of photography. I currently only have a 24" printer but eventually might get a bigger one, one day.
Thanks for the advice / thoughts on the matter.
I think it depends on what you want. If you just want the resolution to print big, stitching might be a good place to start. It doesn't cost much and resolution can go pretty much as high as you want.
If you want tilts to control DOF and shifts to control perspective, something like the 24 TS-E might be a really good choice. I have a couple of the t/s Nikon lenses and really like using them. They don't give you as much flexibility as the full range of movements on a view camera, but they do open up new possibilities for DSLR shooters.
LF digital is the ultimate in some ways, but does carry some compromises: namely size/weight and price. The cameras are also a lot less versatile than DSLR's if your shooting isn't entirely tripod-based landscapes. For me personally, the MFDB guys need to figure out how to implement high-quality LiveView without tethering before LF digital will really be attractive to me for field work.
I'm actually considering the DSLR version of the M-Line 2 (currently researching lens compatiblity and a few other things). This would give me the option of shooting LF-style, but still being able to use the DSLR without the M-Line 2 when I want to.
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Wow thanks for this info. What about Cambo Ultima 35?
I hadn't seen that one before. I knew about the Cambo X2 Pro, but had no interest in it since it seems to only have front-standard movements. Without rear-standard shift/rise, flat stitching isn't really practical and that's one of the things I'm interested in.
The Ultima 35 appears to have the full range of movements, which is definitely appealing. Unfortunately there's not much info on their website, they don't even list size/weight specs. I have a feeling this camera could be quite a bit heavier than the M-Line 2. You'll note that lens compatibility is an issue. They only list one lens wider then 72mm as being compatible (the Schneider Digitar 28mm). They also have an adapter for Mamiya MF lenses; but I'm not sure what the availability and optical quality is for those lenses though. The Arca-Swiss guys seemed to think the new Rodenstock 40mm and 50mm HR-W lenses might be retro-focal enough to work with this type of camera, but hadn't yet tested to find out. That's one of the things I'm waiting to hear back from them on.
Since this is such a niche market, there's not much available information out there on these cameras and their capabilities, quirks, and incompatibilities. It'd be nice if there was detailed enough information (including user reviews) to determine how the M-Line 2 and Ultima 35 compared with regards to size, weight, construction, precision, etc.
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I found some specs for the Ultima 35 on Calumut's site (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/CB4019/specifications). At 11lbs I think this camera is much heavier than the M-Line 2, which if I recall correctly is less than 5lbs.
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I used a Cambo Ultima a few years ago. My first impression, unpacking it was "Man, this is really heavy!" and that was the base and rail only. I would guess the weight closer to 15lbs. This is really a good studio camera but not to hike with.
There are no real good options in the larger size cameras, there might be one for you but finding it might prove difficult. The Cambo Wide DS and the Alpa 12 type cameras have limited tilt and shift options compared the a normal 4x5. It is very possible that they have these limited tilt and shift because the closeness the the lens and digital back will not allow large movements that older 4x5 cameras are capable of. If you stick a MFDB on a 4x5 Ebony(some one has done this), I am not sure what that cameras limits become. In other words it might not do exactly what you wish it to do.
Good Luck,
Brian Woolf
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One of the dslr's major advantages for outdoor shooting is its weather resistance.
Also, think of the relative simplicity and efficiency of the dslr, when you need to move quickly.
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Jim:
Post the same in Large Sensor MF back and let's read a different story (I guess)
I'm thinking on acquiring both new 24,17Ts and 35L. Expensive glass but a true bargain teenager ride compared to investing into digital MF.
Eduardo
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But to get that large-format look with the in-your-face foreground and massive depth, you're going to have a hard time because those LF guys are using rear tilts to get that effect. Front tilts have very little affect in perspective, but the same is not true for rear tilts. Tilting back the rear standard really emphasizes the foreground and makes it loom. If you ever get a chance to play around with a view camera give it a try and you'll see what an advantage they have for that type of composition.
"Rear tilt" can be accomplished using a camera that only has front tilt. Tilting the rear standard on a view camera simply changes the angle between lens and image planes and between the image plane and the ground. On a camera that only has front tilt you can angle the image plane relative to the ground using the tripod head, and then apply front tilt and downward shift to put the lens plane and axis where they would be as if you had rear tilt. The amount of tilt and shift you have at the lens may limit how much "rear" tilt you can apply, though.
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So at the end of the day there are only two ways to go about this:
1. Get the canon ts lens and be happy with it knowing that it isn't necessarily the best possible system and the images won't be the best possible (yeah even an LF / MFDB in the hands of an amateur can never beat a beautifully shot dslr image done by someone who knows what they're doing).
or
2. Go all the way and get LF 8x10 or MFDB + arca / cambo. Bear the weight and try your best to take the best photos
Someone once told me though (and I'm quoting it very inaccurately here... you get the idea I hope) that Mozart won't be as good as he was had he just been playing on a crappy piano and never ever really got to use the grand piano.
I OFTEN hear people say - just get X (some cheaper version of things) first, learn with it and upgrade later. I hear it time and time again - golf clubs, tennis rackets, camera, piano, etc. I think it's more of a hindrance when using an inferior tool to learn a craft.
So... catch 22. Any thoughts or pearls of wisdom regarding this?
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I OFTEN hear people say - just get X (some cheaper version of things) first, learn with it and upgrade later. I hear it time and time again - golf clubs, tennis rackets, camera, piano, etc. I think it's more of a hindrance when using an inferior tool to learn a craft.
So... catch 22. Any thoughts or pearls of wisdom regarding this?
One thought - don't confuse "basic" or "less expensive" for "inferior." By that logic the first car of a person just learning to drive should be an F1 racer, not a Toyota Camry. You're not going to learn much about street driving if you have to push 100mph just to warm up the F1's tires so they can grip the road.
OTOH, one area where I agree with you that one should start with the best one can afford is camera support - a solid tripod and tripod head. My Gitzo is now supporting its fourth generation of DSLRs and I expect to continue using it for years to come.
Paul
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If you did go with the Canon plus the ts-e. It's not like you have to keep them forever. I'm sure the 24mm ts-e would hold it's value reasonably well if you decided to sell up to go to a MFDB.
Currently I'm deciding on the 24mm ts-e II or wait untill the Zeiss 21mm ZE is released. Both are big improvements on my 24 -105mm.
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Go all the way and get MFDB + Sinar F3
The Sinar F3 folds flat, and I think I could get one in my briefcase with my 17" Mac laptop.
The P3/F3 lensboards take up little room, and the Apo-digitar lenses are tiny compared to my Hassy zoom.
And when you do not need light weight kit, you can use the same lensboards on a Sinar P3, with geared movements!
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One of the dslr's major advantages for outdoor shooting is its weather resistance.
Also, think of the relative simplicity and efficiency of the dslr, when you need to move quickly.
I am unfamiliar with the MF gear with view camera. Are they not weather resistance? e.g. rain / snow / humidity
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I am unfamiliar with the MF gear with view camera. Are they not weather resistance? e.g. rain / snow / humidity
I think the Sinar recommendation maybe the best one but I don't think it takes the place of a good set of optics on your 5D2. There will be times when the 5D2 and high quality Canon lenses, (like the 17 and 24 shift among others), will get you photos that you could never get with a slower more cumbersome system. I'll be almost everyone carrying a view camera in the field has a 35mm dslr or Leica M8 in their bag too.
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I think the Sinar recommendation maybe the best one but I don't think it takes the place of a good set of optics on your 5D2. There will be times when the 5D2 and high quality Canon lenses, (like the 17 and 24 shift among others), will get you photos that you could never get with a slower more cumbersome system. I'll be almost everyone carrying a view camera in the field has a 35mm dslr or Leica M8 in their bag too.
Having made my living for almost thirty years shooting architecture and landscape with a 4x5 view camera and film before switching to DSLR, I find a Canon 5DII and t/s lenses to be nothing short of liberating. I am more productive and willing to take risks that I would not bother with shooting 4x5 film. I don't find FF DSLR to be competitive with scanned 4x5 film on large prints but my clients and my art rarely requires prints over 16x20. Also FWIW a used 4x5 right now is dirt cheap compared to MFD and in tandem with a quality DSLR-all bases are covered.
Has anyone been able to find the new Canon T/S lenses in the US (with US warranty)? I can't.
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"Rear tilt" can be accomplished using a camera that only has front tilt. Tilting the rear standard on a view camera simply changes the angle between lens and image planes and between the image plane and the ground. On a camera that only has front tilt you can angle the image plane relative to the ground using the tripod head, and then apply front tilt and downward shift to put the lens plane and axis where they would be as if you had rear tilt. The amount of tilt and shift you have at the lens may limit how much "rear" tilt you can apply, though.
I had thought it was possible in theory, although I hadn't mentally worked out the exact procedure that would be required (and my T/S lenses currently have the movements on opposite axis so I cannot try this). It sounds more cumbersome than rear tilt, though; and I have a feeling with DSLR T/S lenses you're going to run out of image circle pretty quick (one of the big advantages of rear tilts is they don't need as large of an image circle as front tilts).
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Having made my living for almost thirty years shooting architecture and landscape with a 4x5 view camera and film before switching to DSLR, I find a Canon 5DII and t/s lenses to be nothing short of liberating. I am more productive and willing to take risks that I would not bother with shooting 4x5 film. I don't find FF DSLR to be competitive with scanned 4x5 film on large prints but my clients and my art rarely requires prints over 16x20. Also FWIW a used 4x5 right now is dirt cheap compared to MFD and in tandem with a quality DSLR-all bases are covered.
Do you never encounter situations where you would appreciate a full range of movements?
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Has anyone been able to find the new Canon T/S lenses in the US (with US warranty)? I can't.
Hard to get but I've had for a couple months (with US warranty). Worth the money. The new 24 is a huge improvement on the old.
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I am unfamiliar with the MF gear with view camera. Are they not weather resistance? e.g. rain / snow / humidity
Jim,
I'm not sure where you are located, but I'd be glad to help you out and guide you with your decision making. We are a Phase One / Leaf dealer based in the Southeast that carries Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Canon and several other lighting and photo-related lines. I can give you some insight into most of the cameras and systems that were mentioned in this thread. I can also give you the names of several of our clients that are utilizing these bodies/ backs and their honest opinions of them.
http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/our-clients/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/our-clients/)
Chris Lawery ()
__________________
Sales Manager, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 404.234.5195
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Having made my living for almost thirty years shooting architecture and landscape with a 4x5 view camera and film before switching to DSLR, I find a Canon 5DII and t/s lenses to be nothing short of liberating. I am more productive and willing to take risks that I would not bother with shooting 4x5 film. I don't find FF DSLR to be competitive with scanned 4x5 film on large prints but my clients and my art rarely requires prints over 16x20. Also FWIW a used 4x5 right now is dirt cheap compared to MFD and in tandem with a quality DSLR-all bases are covered.
I hear what you're saying. However, you're comparing film vs digital so yes I understand how you would not want to be trigger happy with a film camera. With film it has to be perfect before you click it. I would imagine that with MFDB this won't be a problem.
How much more bothersome or difficult is it to carry and set up a digital view camera for landscape work? We know it's bigger and heavier
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Do you never encounter situations where you would appreciate a full range of movements?
Not really. Shift and tilt was all I ever used 99% of the time on the view camera. The wild contorted movements you see in ads for view cameras were never practical for landscape or architecture IME. However with the DSLR T/S lenses I do oftentimes find the axis to be off from what I need and I am not willing to open the lens to fix it in the field. Canon's new lenses will fix that problem.
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24mm TS-E II vs I.
All samples © Carlos Casariego (http://www.carloscasariego.com/):
(http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1087/enfoque01.jpg)
(http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6240/enfoque02.jpg)
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4158/42082615.jpg)
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1026/h01d.jpg)
(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/199/h02.jpg)
Salu2
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Jim,
I'm not sure where you are located
Gold Coast, Australia
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Jim:
Post the same in Large Sensor MF back and let's read a different story (I guess)
Is cross posting OK in this forum though?
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How much more bothersome or difficult is it to carry and set up a digital view camera for landscape work? We know it's bigger and heavier
A 10 * 8 folding camera with one small lens is relatively light and compact - how heavy, how big?
An MFDVC (MediumFormat Digital View Camera) (e.g. Sinar F3) system is, I believe, no heavier than a 10 * 8 Camera system, particularly if your 10* 8 system includes long lenses, which weigh kilos each.
Set-up is easier if you cary a laptop and use live view... which you would not if weight was an issue.
You will need a very good loupe to focus on the small ground glass screen - I think most adaptor manufacturers supply them.
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Set-up is easier if you cary a laptop and use live view... which you would not if weight was an issue.
You will need a very good loupe to focus on the small ground glass screen - I think most adaptor manufacturers supply them.
My understanding is that Phase One backs have Live View which can be used for focusing (I'd imagine similar to Canon's live view with 10x zoom - which is what I currently use for focusing). Is this correct? All in all the set up will only be slightly heavier (Cambo RS 1000 weighs 2kg + lens another 1kg + DB ??kg) probably smaller compared to the 24-105 zoom I currently use on Canon anyway.
The Phase One back is 'weather resistant' AFAIK so the only risk is on the lens / view camera.
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Jim:
Post the same in Large Sensor MF back and let's read a different story (I guess)
Unfortunately, in the large sensor forum you would find two or three regular posters trying to convince you that MFD systems a are just status symbols, and a waste of money, and that you could achieve similar results more cost-effectively using pan-and-stitch with a small DSLR... but, for landscapes, they do have a point.
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My understanding is that Phase One backs have Live View which can be used for focusing (I'd imagine similar to Canon's live view with 10x zoom - which is what I currently use for focusing). Is this correct? All in all the set up will only be slightly heavier (Cambo RS 1000 weighs 2kg + lens another 1kg + DB ??kg) probably smaller compared to the 24-105 zoom I currently use on Canon anyway.
I am not familiar with Phase one kit, and I have not even used live view on my own system yet, as it has not been implemented (will be in a few days I hope).
On the Hasselblad there is a sharpness graph display.
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I've found out that through stitching often my composition suffers and consequently the content. I'd rather sacrifice maximun resolution for content. The other reason is I'm into long exposures and stitching in most instances is out of the question. Wish I could afford a 39mp digiback for my 500CM! - So, for the time being I think is only "L"glass time for me. About the Large sensor forum, in general the bias would be towards MF I believe.
Eduardo
Unfortunately, in the large sensor forum you would find two or three regular posters trying to convince you that MFD systems a are just status symbols, and a waste of money, and that you could achieve similar results more cost-effectively using pan-and-stitch with a small DSLR... but, for landscapes, they do have a point.
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A tilt/shift lens can allow you to increase DOF, and the shift can also be used to correct perspective in some compositions. I think they're definitely a useful tool for DSLR landscape and architecture shooters.
But to get that large-format look with the in-your-face foreground and massive depth, you're going to have a hard time because those LF guys are using rear tilts to get that effect. Front tilts have very little affect in perspective, but the same is not true for rear tilts. Tilting back the rear standard really emphasizes the foreground and makes it loom. If you ever get a chance to play around with a view camera give it a try and you'll see what an advantage they have for that type of composition.
Unfortunately even a lot of the "digital" view cameras sacrifice rear tilts in the name of size/weight and precision. For instance the Arca-Swiss M-Line 2 only has front tilt/swing and rear shift/rise/fall. Which is still much more flexible than a tilt/shift lens on a DSLR, though.
You can tilt the camera then straighten up with a tilt/shift lens. Normally with a T/S the idea is keep the film plane upright, hence the shift to get the top of the building in shot with straight sides. Nothing to stop you tilting the camera for effect then recomposing with the tilts and shifts plus stopping down to get the D o Field.
Kevin.
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My understanding is that Phase One backs have Live View which can be used for focusing (I'd imagine similar to Canon's live view with 10x zoom - which is what I currently use for focusing). Is this correct? All in all the set up will only be slightly heavier (Cambo RS 1000 weighs 2kg + lens another 1kg + DB ??kg) probably smaller compared to the 24-105 zoom I currently use on Canon anyway.
The Phase One back is 'weather resistant' AFAIK so the only risk is on the lens / view camera.
I believe the Phase one LCD is very low resolution compared with the Canon 5D which is quite usable for focusing and composing with a loupe. My vote is for the 5D and the new 17 and 24 shift lenses.
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I didn't think any of the medium-format backs supported live-view, except for tethering. 1 or 2 fps on a crappy low-res LCD doesn't count, you can't focus that way.
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I believe the Phase one LCD is very low resolution compared with the Canon 5D which is quite usable for focusing and composing with a loupe. My vote is for the 5D and the new 17 and 24 shift lenses.
Does 5D2 have a better screen than 1ds3? Perhaps I should wait for 1ds4 + cambo X2 would be a good set up, but there's still that nagging feeling that the DR won't be as good as MFDB no matter how hard they try.