Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Kristian Tjong on August 27, 2009, 10:01:53 am
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Just want to get some opinions. During the launching party of the new PhaseOne body, I was faced with a choice to buy either P30+ or P25+ along with the PhaseOne body. After some long consultation, I chose the P25+ based on the advise of the PhaseOne distributor in my country. At that time, I was shooting more still life shoot as compared to people. Now, more and more, my work involving family portrait, portraiture, children and such. The problem that I am having is I noticed that are a lot of my shoot exhibit moire on the peoples clothing. I tried cleaning it using the moire function in Capture One, and the result is not satisfying. Sometimes, I can not get rid of the moire at all. If I am not mistaken, I've read from this forum, it has something to do with large sensor with not enough megapixels which caused the moire. What should I do?
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Just want to get some opinions. During the launching party of the new PhaseOne body, I was faced with a choice to buy either P30+ or P25+ along with the PhaseOne body. After some long consultation, I chose the P25+ based on the advise of the PhaseOne distributor in my country. At that time, I was shooting more still life shoot as compared to people. Now, more and more, my work involving family portrait, portraiture, children and such. The problem that I am having is I noticed that are a lot of my shoot exhibit moire on the peoples clothing. I tried cleaning it using the moire function in Capture One, and the result is not satisfying. Sometimes, I can not get rid of the moire at all. If I am not mistaken, I've read from this forum, it has something to do with large sensor with not enough megapixels which caused the moire. What should I do?
The size of the pixel on the chip is the major factor here.
P25+: 9 micron
P30+/P45+: 6.8 micron
P65+/P40+: 6 micron
EVERY system in the world (including your eye) can moire. However, dSLRs use an AA filter which softens every image captured in order to avoid occasional moire. Backs with smaller pixels are significantly less prone to moire. A P30 CAN moire, but its much less likely; a P40 even less still.
Here are a few varied suggestions:
- Shoot tethered and use Capture One 4's floating "Viewer" at 100% on a 2nd monitor to get a quick idea if there is any moire
- When you see a "o crap" outfit switch to a Canon/Nikon with an AA filter. Either one can fit into your existing Capture One workflow
- Shoot either wider open, or more stopped down than usual. Moire will occur most at the middle apertures where DOF is high and sharpness is maxed. Wider open there is less DOF and therefore less fabric in focus and therefore less chance of moire - as well nearly every lens is a bit soft wide open. Stopped down diffraction kicks in and has an effect very similar to an AA filter.
The P25+ is simply not the right tool for family portraits. The P30+ or P40+ will very rarely moire and will give you faster shot-to-shot times for more spontaneity. Of course you already have the P25+ and I'm sure you didn't know where life would take you, so I sympathize with your frustration. Hope some of the above helps.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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Thanks for the reply Doug. I am really frustrated at the moment as I felt being lied to. I spend a great deal amount of money in investing into the Phase system only to find out it has this problem. Before I purchased the Phase system, I consulted with the distributor extensively. I mentioned that I will be shooting people too. They did not mentioned to me about this problem before. Should I know that P25+ is prone to the moire problem, I would have opted for the P30+ (it was offered at the same price at the moment). I will try to contact distributor again to resolve this problem. Thanks for your help.
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Thanks for the reply Doug. I am really frustrated at the moment as I felt being lied to. I spend a great deal amount of money in investing into the Phase system only to find out it has this problem. Before I purchased the Phase system, I consulted with the distributor extensively. I mentioned that I will be shooting people too. They did not mentioned to me about this problem before. Should I know that P25+ is prone to the moire problem, I would have opted for the P30+ (it was offered at the same price at the moment). I will try to contact distributor again to resolve this problem. Thanks for your help.
I doubt (hope) that this was a lie.
The P25+ is an absolutely fantastic back for many many applications. It is a better back for many applications than the P30+ (technical cameras for instance). Many people who shoot people along with a variety of other things would do very well with a P25+.
If, however, you're now primarily shooting portraits in the studio with no control over the clothing used (it's not your place to tell them what to wear, nor should you need to be distracted by this issue) it is not the best tool.
Let your distributor know the situation and hopefully they will make you a good deal to get you a tool that works better for your new needs.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
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but the P30+ isn't friendly with camera movements... no perfect back, just compromises !
i have an Aptus 22 myself, and wasn't very satisfied with his behaviour in low light... while in "normal" condition, i find it very good !
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but the P30+ isn't friendly with camera movements... no perfect back, just compromises !
i have an Aptus 22 myself, and wasn't very satisfied with his behaviour in low light... while in "normal" condition, i find it very good !
P65+ :-)
Very little moire. (though every camera CAN moire)
No problem with camera movements.
Very fast.
Full frame.
No compromises comes at a cost :-)
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One of the only things I have hated since day one with MFDB's is the moire problem.
Sure the images are sharper but the HUGE pattern moire is a PITA and the pattern is impossible to get rid of. You can get rid of the color but the pattern is impossible.
Never had one moire problem with my Canons and spend endless hours retouching moire since my I got my Phase one back.
Where I live they use a lot of cheap fabrics for clothing and I have moire problems on every shoot. So guys will say oh change your focal length but that is BS. Becasue when your shooting portrait or fashion you cannot go back and shoot it again at different focal length. The shot is the shot and if you miss it no going back once you have capture and image.
Really is one of the biggest dis-appointments with MFDB's for sure if you shoot catalogue and fashion.
Snook
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P65+ :-)
Very little moire. (though every camera CAN moire)
No problem with camera movements.
Very fast.
Full frame.
No compromises comes at a cost :-)
What I find odd is that the P25 seems to have more issues with Moire than the Dalsa chipped 22 mpix backs, such as the Aptus 22/54s and the Sinar eMotion 22. Also, the "special" Kodak chipped Sinar 54M didn't have many moire issues. Could it be a software issue? What happens when the OP uses ACR or LR to process? Raw Developer?
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One of the only things I have hated since day one with MFDB's is the moire problem.
Sure the images are sharper but the HUGE pattern moire is a PITA and the pattern is impossible to get rid of. You can get rid of the color but the pattern is impossible.
Never had one moire problem with my Canons and spend endless hours retouching moire since my I got my Phase one back.
Where I live they use a lot of cheap fabrics for clothing and I have moire problems on every shoot. So guys will say oh change your focal length but that is BS. Becasue when your shooting portrait or fashion you cannot go back and shoot it again at different focal length. The shot is the shot and if you miss it no going back once you have capture and image.
Really is one of the biggest dis-appointments with MFDB's for sure if you shoot catalogue and fashion.
Snook
This is one of my issues with MFDB in general. If you have to always have a tech checking for moire, focus, etc on every catalogue shoot of thousands of images, you have to slow way, way down, breaking the rhythm of the shoot and frankly extending the day. With a dslr, you AF, you shoot, you move on, no moire and most of the time perfect focus through acurate AF and depth of field.
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Hello Kristian,
I have also suffered with this problem with my Leaf Aptus 75.
The best solution I have found is to use Caprock Antimoire filters.
They can reduces the problem dramatically to the point of disappearing. The only negative is that you have to add a bit more sharpening.
http://www.caprockdev.com/antimoire.htm (http://www.caprockdev.com/antimoire.htm)
I don't go anywhere without these filters in my computer case. The minute I see colour moiré out they come.
Personally I think these filters should be supplied free with every new digital back.
Regards
Simon
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I've never had that much trouble myself, sure it would show up occasionally on fine pattern fabric but I always was able to remove it rather easily. I remember this one time doing a catalog for a textile company, I shot ~480 pics and out of those there was just one I wasn't happy with, but to be fair the textile print on that one looked like moire by itself so I'm not surprised the software got confused.
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I've never had that much trouble myself, sure it would show up occasionally on fine pattern fabric but I always was able to remove it rather easily. I remember this one time doing a catalog for a textile company, I shot ~480 pics and out of those there was just one I wasn't happy with, but to be fair the textile print on that one looked like moire by itself so I'm not surprised the software got confused.
I guess your not shooting many models with clothing. Funny I am retouching some Lingerie images right now as we speak and every freak'n one has Moire in every type of fabric. Plus There is basically NO way of getting rid of the Pattern Moire... I have gone in and Dodged and Burned the heck out of the pattern which takes HOURS.
Other wise I have never seen any thing get rid of the pattern Moire.. going to post some examples later of what I am working on right now...
MFDB's are a has been for sure,except for the very few feilds that need it badly enough... I am keeping mine just for fine art stuff and Big Prints, and the fact that the prices have gone down so much it is not worth it to even sell it in my opinion...
I am on a P30 myself and the Moire is Horrible and it is found on many types of fabrics, not just fine woven fabric's...
Don't believe the hype. I shoot 3-4 times a week all year round usually, been slower lately and 80% of my of my shot's with any clothing have Moire!! Period.
Snook
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Hi Snook,
That why I bought a Nikon D3X.
Also just finish a 3 day location shot with the Nikon in very low light situations and shot over 2000 frames and it never skipped a beat.
Cheers
Simon
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I doubt (hope) that this was a lie.
The P25+ is an absolutely fantastic back for many many applications. It is a better back for many applications than the P30+ (technical cameras for instance). Many people who shoot people along with a variety of other things would do very well with a P25+.
If, however, you're now primarily shooting portraits in the studio with no control over the clothing used (it's not your place to tell them what to wear, nor should you need to be distracted by this issue) it is not the best tool.
Let your distributor know the situation and hopefully they will make you a good deal to get you a tool that works better for your new needs.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
I was quite emotional when I wrote the letter. My apology. I've never had this type of problem when I use the 35mm camera. I felt like being an a$$ because (as if) the distributor knew about this problem and still sell the back me (I could have gotten the P30+ instead). I am not someone with a lot of money, I bought this camera system with great expectation (great amount of money too even compared to the top of the line offering from Nikon or Canon). Another note, when I talked to the rep about this problem, he suggested me to learn better lighting technique to avoid this moire problem . I felt utterly hopeless to do a business with them again.
@Simon, thanks for the info. Will definitely check it out.
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I was quite emotional when I wrote the letter. My apology. I've never had this type of problem when I use the 35mm camera. I felt like being an a$$ because (as if) the distributor knew about this problem and still sell the back me (I could have gotten the P30+ instead). I am not someone with a lot of money, I bought this camera system with great expectation (great amount of money too even compared to the top of the line offering from Nikon or Canon). Another note, when I talked to the rep about this problem, he suggested me to learn better lighting technique to avoid this moire problem . I felt utterly hopeless to do a business with them again.
@Simon, thanks for the info. Will definitely check it out.
Well if they were telling you lighting has to do with moire they definitely pulled one over on you and they should be shot and you should have done more research first.
I guess dealers will say anything (or not say anything) these days to try and sell those backs sitting on the shelves.
I would imagine sells have diminished almost completely, specially with the "Crisis". Clients are paying what they used to, many things are web only these days, no new bodies or lens' worth beans, etc etc..
It's just a no brainer I guess.
Snook
PS. Doug has ALWAYS been MORE than helpful and has never sold me anything.
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Hey Simon Does that filter really work? Would love to see some samples. Which numbers do you have?
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Hi Rick,
Here some samples taken with the Caprock filters. These shots were taken with my Mamiya RZ and a Leaf Aptus 75 back.
There is no sharping to the images.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Simon
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Hi Rick,
Here some samples taken with the Caprock filters. These shots were taken with my Mamiya RZ and a Leaf Aptus 75 back.
There is no sharping to the images.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Simon
Simon, thanks for the samples. very helpful. i too have a P25 and see the moire. its a great back but not for portraits.
so are the filters of optical grade? do you just start with a lower number filter and use a higher number one by trial and error.
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Thanks Simon. Do you find you use 5.6 the most?
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Hi Rick,
Yes the Caprock filter 5.6 is the one I use the most.
I actually got a optical lens maker to cut one of the large square Lee style filters down to fit in a 77mm filter ring, so it could screw into my Mamiya RZ lenses.
The square filters also fit perfectly in a Lee lens hood.
Cheers
Simon
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I rented P30+ for a job and I can tell you shooting Interiors there's about the same percentage of moire on the carpets as there was shooting portraits...
from then on I decided to wait for a bigger sensor like P65,ooo.oo+ but never had opportunity to try it and even if I did like it, it's greedy expensive
P65+ should be priced at 29,999.99 but definitely nothing over 30K
PS: Simon thanks for the Caprock filters tip
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I guess your not shooting many models with clothing. Funny I am retouching some Lingerie images right now as we speak and every freak'n one has Moire in every type of fabric. Plus There is basically NO way of getting rid of the Pattern Moire... I have gone in and Dodged and Burned the heck out of the pattern which takes HOURS.
Other wise I have never seen any thing get rid of the pattern Moire.. going to post some examples later of what I am working on right now...
MFDB's are a has been for sure,except for the very few feilds that need it badly enough... I am keeping mine just for fine art stuff and Big Prints, and the fact that the prices have gone down so much it is not worth it to even sell it in my opinion...
I am on a P30 myself and the Moire is Horrible and it is found on many types of fabrics, not just fine woven fabric's...
Don't believe the hype. I shoot 3-4 times a week all year round usually, been slower lately and 80% of my of my shot's with any clothing have Moire!! Period.
Snook
Actually, that's what I shoot the most, and only rarely have I had problems with moire in my fashion/editorial work. And I use a P25, supposedly worse than the P30.
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Cheers Simon just ordered a 5.6 and got a lee system cheap on ebay, almost looking forward to the next suits shoot!!!!
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I rented P30+ for a job and I can tell you shooting Interiors there's about the same percentage of moire on the carpets as there was shooting portraits...
from then on I decided to wait for a bigger sensor like P65,ooo.oo+ but never had opportunity to try it and even if I did like it, it's greedy expensive
I use the P65+ and it still suffers badly from Moire too.
I think nearly all digital backs do - they dont want an AA filter on there, to maximize their sharpness, but anything with fabric on it - interior curtains, clothing, a man in a suit, gives you moire.
its a little better in the P65+ but not by much, let me tell you.
If any dealer tells you the P65+ does not suffer from Moire, laugh at the comment...
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I tested the three backs from Phase a little while ago the P30+, P40+ and the P45+ and as you can see the P40+ with the 6 micron sensor does improve things over the 6.8 sensors but it is still there no question. If i had the P25+ in this test and owning one before the P30+ it would have been the worst in the Moire dept. no doubt about it. Love the P25+ back with the big 9 micron sensors but if I was mostly shooting fashion and clothing it would be the wrong choice. The 6 micron is better for that type of work
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...8090&page=2 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8090&page=2) Look at post 96
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One would think there is enough resolution in latest digital backs to sacrifice a little using an AA filter?
I think I'd prefer to do some extra sharpening when necessary than to remove the moire from almost every photo.
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One would think there is enough resolution in latest digital backs to sacrifice a little using an AA filter?
I think I'd prefer to do some extra sharpening when necessary than to remove the moire from almost every photo.
Absolutey agree.. Removing moire has been the MOST frustrating thing about my P30 and it drives me CRAZY.. hours wasted, I have to double conversions and mask it out becasue it is so bad I have to use the C-1 Moire removal always with both dials AS FAR UP as they can go which starts smudging clothing into skin tones and is a night mare. So I do 2 conversions and paint in the with a mask in photoshop to get rid of the color moire... then you usually have dodge and burn the pattern noise out.. Many times it is just IMPOSSIBLE to remove and I have to just shrug my sholders at the client..
Quite embarrassing really!!!
As much as I love the extra bit depth of my P30 I would NEVER have invested know what I know today and how after I bought the prices fell off the scale and the Canon 1DsMIII came out... Just not worth all the hassle for the little difference in quality.
Today I would have 1DsMIII and a 5DII for back up and rent a P65 for Special projects where High res is need for BIG prints.
Wish some one would have given me that advice instead of the people in here that totally hype up MFDB photography which about 10% of the shooters need.
Not trying to sound bitter, but I am actually a little bit.
James Russel or Russel James , not even sure what his name is sent me an e-mail telling me to buy just a Nikon before I bought the P30 but I was actually hyped up on the DB and actually thought it was supposedly way better.
Now where I live the most everything is going web,small catalogues and Billboards are using such low DPI that it also does not matter.
I am how ever glad I have the P30 for my Huge gallery prints I have been doing lately.
I actually also thought mamiya was going to come out with a Leaf shutter lens by now also which aint happening any time soon. That is what the RZ is used for now but it is a PITA outside of the studio as it is so big and cumbersome!!
Snook
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P65+ :-)
Very little moire. (though every camera CAN moire)
No problem with camera movements.
Very fast.
Full frame.
No compromises comes at a cost :-)
How does the H3D11-60 (and Hasselblads in general with the phocus moire reduction) compare? Does this make the H3D11-60 the only choice for hi-res fashion/portraiture?
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I wouldn't replace my Hasselblad with a Nikon or Canon if I had a chance. No way! Too many benefits! I totally love the system and image quality. But if they could sell two versions of the camera one with and one without AA filter they could solve this problem once and forever. Or have a service for attaching/removing the filter.
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I wouldn't replace my Hasselblad with a Nikon or Canon if I had a chance. No way! Too many benefits! I totally love the system and image quality. But if they could sell two versions of the camera one with and one without AA filter they could solve this problem once and forever. Or have a service for attaching/removing the filter.
Are you saying that you have problems with moire on your Hasselblad? Do you not find the phocus Moire removal effective?
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Are you saying that you have problems with moire on your Hasselblad? Do you not find the phocus Moire removal effective?
It usually helps with 90% of moire on clothes but you still have to deal with two layers and create a mask.
When the moire is on skin (usually dark-skinned models) the Phocus moire removal messes up the skin tones and creates artifacts.
So I prefer PS in most cases.
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It usually helps with 90% of moire on clothes but you still have to deal with two layers and create a mask.
When the moire is on skin (usually dark-skinned models) the Phocus moire removal messes up the skin tones and creates artifacts.
So I prefer PS in most cases.
OTOH Phocus can export a layered psd. No need to do 2 conversions. There is the need to mask in the moire removal though. I use the H system 70% of the time as well the remainder I use the Nikon. There is a place for both.
@Snook
The bottom is constantly dropping from under equipment pricing, no need (or better point) to get upset about that. Just swallow it, move on, make images and money. No point in looking back. Hindsight is always 20/20, It would have saved me a lot of money if I had it. The money I paid on MF equipment pales compared to what I have lost on other stuff...
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OTOH Phocus can export a layered psd. No need to do 2 conversions. There is the need to mask in the moire removal though. I use the H system 70% of the time as well the remainder I use the Nikon. There is a place for both.
@Snook
The bottom is constantly dropping from under equipment pricing, no need (or better point) to get upset about that. Just swallow it, move on, make images and money. No point in looking back. Hindsight is always 20/20, It would have saved me a lot of money if I had it. The money I paid on MF equipment pales compared to what I have lost on other stuff...
Your absolutley right, I had just bought when it really dropped off...:+}
I am happy with what I have and it has paid for itself over and over again, no problems there
Snook
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if they could sell two versions of the camera one with and one without AA filter they could solve this problem once and forever. Or have a service for attaching/removing the filter.
one of the better features of the mamiya ZD was the replaceable filter. you could use the normal IR blocking filter, or a low pass/anti moire filter, or a filter for IR phtography. no other company adopted that system.
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One would think there is enough resolution in latest digital backs to sacrifice a little using an AA filter?
I think I'd prefer to do some extra sharpening when necessary than to remove the moire from almost every photo.
If the anti-Aliasing filter spreads the light over the adjacent 8 pixels, this explains why a 2 Mpx (HD 1028i) TV screen looks as high-res as a 16 Mpx photo taken on a DSLR with an AA filter.
Do you want to pay for 60 Mpx and end up with as much res as you could get with 8?
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Absolutey agree.. Removing moire has been the MOST frustrating thing about my P30 and it drives me CRAZY.. hours wasted, I have to double conversions and mask it out becasue it is so bad I have to use the C-1 Moire removal always with both dials AS FAR UP as they can go which starts smudging clothing into skin tones and is a night mare. So I do 2 conversions and paint in the with a mask in photoshop to get rid of the color moire... then you usually have dodge and burn the pattern noise out.. Many times it is just IMPOSSIBLE to remove and I have to just shrug my sholders at the client..
Quite embarrassing really!!!
As much as I love the extra bit depth of my P30 I would NEVER have invested know what I know today and how after I bought the prices fell off the scale and the Canon 1DsMIII came out... Just not worth all the hassle for the little difference in quality.
Today I would have 1DsMIII and a 5DII for back up and rent a P65 for Special projects where High res is need for BIG prints.
Wish some one would have given me that advice instead of the people in here that totally hype up MFDB photography which about 10% of the shooters need.
Not trying to sound bitter, but I am actually a little bit.
James Russel or Russel James , not even sure what his name is sent me an e-mail telling me to buy just a Nikon before I bought the P30 but I was actually hyped up on the DB and actually thought it was supposedly way better.
Now where I live the most everything is going web,small catalogues and Billboards are using such low DPI that it also does not matter.
I am how ever glad I have the P30 for my Huge gallery prints I have been doing lately.
I actually also thought mamiya was going to come out with a Leaf shutter lens by now also which aint happening any time soon. That is what the RZ is used for now but it is a PITA outside of the studio as it is so big and cumbersome!!
Snook
just buy yourself a sony 850 or whatever it's called and a couple of primes, it'll only cost about 2500 all in I bet. Perfect.
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sent me an e-mail telling me to buy just a Nikon before I bought the P30 but I was actually hyped up on the DB and actually thought it was supposedly way better.
Snook
I didn't think I'd written you, but found you on an old e-mail from 2007.
What I said was that compared to any medium format back the dslrs are just easier. I don't think that is really a revelation.
I didn't mention moire but even in that area, the dslrs really are easier especially if you've tried to remove pattern moire from a blue shell top or sweater.
Those are oh my god moments that are almost non fixable.
Looking at that old e-mail what I really mentioned was I felt the p21+ was a nicer back to work with than my p30+ and maybe it's just because I like the look of the file better, though most of the reason is the smaller back is so much more responsive.
If medium format has any issue, something about sticking a medium format back on a camera like the Contax just changes the way it works and feels. It kind goes from instant on, instant shoot, to slightly sluggish, slightly delayed, obviously slower and the p21 takes the contax almost back to the speed of responsiveness of shooting a film camera.
I own a lot of cameras, actually too many with 4 nikons, 4 Canons, two digital backs and a Leica and though they are all different and all have there place but 2007 to today the phase backs I use less and less, the Canons and Nikons I use more, but mostly because my work has moved to more continuous light, faster shooting and more spontaneity. When I bought my Phase backs, especially at the time moving from Leaf and LC-10 to C-1 I felt they were a revelation. They are solid, produce a great file when everything is completely controlled or slow and a digital tech stands guard and constantly checks files for focus and moire, but they kind of remind me of windows 2000. They work, but they just haven't taken that huge leap that Nikon and Canon have made in the last few years and everything seems a little more work and as we all know client "requests" are much more demanding today that the were in 2007.
Last night I saw the documentary, The September Issue, which had a few quick moments of photographers shooting for Vogue. All used Hasselblads and some kind of digital back in studio (I think Phase), all tethered, all slower, with the standard client, stylist, makeup artist standing around a computer screen staring into the image as it came up, but once outside the photographers all had a Canon in their hands and we're just banging away non tethered. Once again this documentary was in 2007 and the world was much different then, the book size of Vogue had grown by 100 pages, the production budgets more lavish, the time from soot to edit to final much longer. As we all know the print publishing world has changed drastically since then.
This week we begin production on a studio and location shoot, mostly studio and I toy with the thought of dusting off the digital backs, tethering them up and shooting the studio portion with them, but as the shot list grows, the time to shoot shrinks, I'll probably just shoot the studio with the Canons, the outside locations with a Nikon, cut my on set and post production workflow in half and get on with my life.
This doesn't mean my digital backs are less workable or mysteriously produced a different file today than they did in 2007 and it doesn't mean that I don't see value in a slightly more robust file or even the 4:3 proportion for vertical images, but we are now in world where every second of the day is used up with shooting time and offers few moments for reflection, so knowing the client, the parameters of the shoot I'll probably make life as easy as possible for myself and he crew, because at the end of the day, the client will never ask if that was a Canon, Nikon, Phase or Hasselblad.
They'll just look for that one pose, the one frozen moment and in two weeks and the only magnifying glass they use will be on the invoice.
Given all of this, I don't understand your issues with the Phase. Obviously in two years time you should have more than made your money back from your Phase back and in 2007, I don't think Phase or Mamiya had made any promises of leaf shutter lenses. Also if in 2007 your Phase back wasn't working well for you, it was a pretty easy sell, much easier than today.
I do agree you have to take a lot of this forum talk with a grain of salt. Everyone shoots different, everyone has different expectations. A lot of the proponents of medium format don't shoot a lot of imagery per day, or even shoot for commerce where the responsiblities of a problematic file will fall on the photographer.
JR
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Every AA-filter always destroys information near nyquist-limit and cannot be retained by sharpening - it's an optical illusion. But aliasing which appears beyond nyquist-limit due to the lack of an AA-filter wouldn't contain any information on a filtered camera, either. So no AA-filter gives us the option to remove selective (or better: hide) artifacts in post while retaining fine detail/microcontrast.
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I didn't think I'd written you, but found you on an old e-mail from 2007.
What I said was that compared to any medium format back the dslrs are just easier. I don't think that is really a revelation.
I didn't mention moire but even in that area, the dslrs really are easier especially if you've tried to remove pattern moire from a blue shell top or sweater.
Those are oh my god moments that are almost non fixable.
Looking at that old e-mail what I really mentioned was I felt the p21+ was a nicer back to work with than my p30+ and maybe it's just because I like the look of the file better, though most of the reason is the smaller back is so much more responsive.
If medium format has any issue, something about sticking a medium format back on a camera like the Contax just changes the way it works and feels. It kind goes from instant on, instant shoot, to slightly sluggish, slightly delayed, obviously slower and the p21 takes the contax almost back to the speed of responsiveness of shooting a film camera.
I own a lot of cameras, actually too many with 4 nikons, 4 Canons, two digital backs and a Leica and though they are all different and all have there place but 2007 to today the phase backs I use less and less, the Canons and Nikons I use more, but mostly because my work has moved to more continuous light, faster shooting and more spontaneity. When I bought my Phase backs, especially at the time moving from Leaf and LC-10 to C-1 I felt they were a revelation. They are solid, produce a great file when everything is completely controlled or slow and a digital tech stands guard and constantly checks files for focus and moire, but they kind of remind me of windows 2000. They work, but they just haven't taken that huge leap that Nikon and Canon have made in the last few years and everything seems a little more work and as we all know client "requests" are much more demanding today that the were in 2007.
Last night I saw the documentary, The September Issue, which had a few quick moments of photographers shooting for Vogue. All used Hasselblads and some kind of digital back in studio (I think Phase), all tethered, all slower, with the standard client, stylist, makeup artist standing around a computer screen staring into the image as it came up, but once outside the photographers all had a Canon in their hands and we're just banging away non tethered. Once again this documentary was in 2007 and the world was much different then, the book size of Vogue had grown by 100 pages, the production budgets more lavish, the time from soot to edit to final much longer. As we all know the print publishing world has changed drastically since then.
This week we begin production on a studio and location shoot, mostly studio and I toy with the thought of dusting off the digital backs, tethering them up and shooting the studio portion with them, but as the shot list grows, the time to shoot shrinks, I'll probably just shoot the studio with the Canons, the outside locations with a Nikon, cut my on set and post production workflow in half and get on with my life.
This doesn't mean my digital backs are less workable or mysteriously produced a different file today than they did in 2007 and it doesn't mean that I don't see value in a slightly more robust file or even the 4:3 proportion for vertical images, but we are now in world where every second of the day is used up with shooting time and offers few moments for reflection, so knowing the client, the parameters of the shoot I'll probably make life as easy as possible for myself and he crew, because at the end of the day, the client will never ask if that was a Canon, Nikon, Phase or Hasselblad.
They'll just look for that one pose, the one frozen moment and in two weeks and the only magnifying glass they use will be on the invoice.
Given all of this, I don't understand your issues with the Phase. Obviously in two years time you should have more than made your money back from your Phase back and in 2007, I don't think Phase or Mamiya had made any promises of leaf shutter lenses. Also if in 2007 your Phase back wasn't working well for you, it was a pretty easy sell, much easier than today.
I do agree you have to take a lot of this forum talk with a grain of salt. Everyone shoots different, everyone has different expectations. A lot of the proponents of medium format don't shoot a lot of imagery per day, or even shoot for commerce where the responsiblities of a problematic file will fall on the photographer.
JR
As far as the DSLR's have come they still don't seem to be able to make a file like a phase back when the light is all good. It's such a pity because I hate shooting MF, it's so heavy and slow. Maybe I'll get an A850 to try it again, my last experience with a dslr is with the 1ds mark 2 which was pretty much mush.
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If the anti-Aliasing filter spreads the light over the adjacent 8 pixels, this explains why a 2 Mpx (HD 1028i) TV screen looks as high-res as a 16 Mpx photo taken on a DSLR with an AA filter.
Do you want to pay for 60 Mpx and end up with as much res as you could get with 8?
well, maybe you are right, and it actually destroys micro contrast, I wouldn't want that to happen. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to compare the same image from the same MF camera with and without an AA filter.
If the difference is like shown here: http://www.maxmax.com/nikon_d200hr.htm (http://www.maxmax.com/nikon_d200hr.htm)
I'd better continue fighting moire
PS. OTOH it seem that only photographers care about microcontrast. I've never heard a client say, you have bad or good microcontrast, but they spot the moire easily
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Just an update. I went to my local distributor to discuss my situation. The owner pointed out (as Doug Peterson pointed out to me as well) that all DB exhibit some moire, and he gave me some excellent suggestion to combat the moire problem. Of course, as I knew this already, he defended himself by using the argument that every DB back has moire, and another bunch of reasons. Of course, I can always trade it my back for a new back at a very unbelieveable price (almost at 3/4 for the price of a new back). At that time, I felt like to grab the P25+ back and shoved it into his .... The thing that dissapoint me in this matter is that , personally, I felt that all this problem is b***sh**. If a manufacturer , and, or distributor knew about the problem why don't they disclose the information to the customer. Of course, I am also at fault. I did not do my homework properly, but the question is how do I do the homework properly? I meant how detailed should I do the research before I made my purchase? How much time do I have to spend to do the research? Please let me know if anyone who bought the phase one back knew about the moire problem and still purchased the back. I am really sorry for the rant. I felt really hopeless at this moment.
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If a manufacturer , and, or distributor knew about the problem why don't they disclose the information to the customer. Of course, I am also at fault. I did not do my homework properly, but the question is how do I do the homework properly? I meant how detailed should I do the research before I made my purchase?
I rented and tested P25+ and P45+ before upgrading an old Phase 11MP back, my dealer was very helpful with this. I was well aware of the moire problem, its the issue that bugs me most and the same kinds of artefactscan occur around other fine details, for example, print and architectural fine detail. I didn't get the P30+ as I wanted something all purpose that left me with a wide angle option on an H1, its kind of sadly comforting to me to hear some people say all the backs suffer to some degree. I would not regard the P25+/H kit as a complete solution and I use Nikons too.
I don't shoot clothing or models as much as other stuff with my P25+ but when I do and I see moire I go down the route of two conversions and PS layers described by other people here. I only used the moire removal tool in the old 3.7 Capture One a few times but it seems more sophisticated than the tool in CO4, having the ability to mask colours and stop colours bleeding into each other. Perhaps if more people complain to Phase and ask them to improve the tool in C04 it will be made more useful.
They may not have pointed out that your P25+ may also suffer from green/magenta lens casts which you may notice shooting neutral backgrounds on your MF camera. There are one or two other threads about this. I was more upset about this than the moire because I felt the marketing was misleading in suggesting this was only an issue with movements on technical cameras. In practice its easier to deal with than moire, using the current Phase software, as it's just a batch correction solely in Capture One.
Tony May
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It usually helps with 90% of moire on clothes but you still have to deal with two layers and create a mask.
When the moire is on skin (usually dark-skinned models) the Phocus moire removal messes up the skin tones and creates artifacts.
So I prefer PS in most cases.
In Phocus Export, choose 'Layers PSD' and you will automatically be given a PSD file with two layers, one with the correction off and one with the correction on.
Useful if you have to use a strong value.
Attached is a movie showing the After and Before, using the moire tool in Phocus.
Best,
David
[attachment=16348:Moire_Tool.mov]
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Just an update. I went to my local distributor to discuss my situation. The owner pointed out (as Doug Peterson pointed out to me as well) that all DB exhibit some moire, and he gave me some excellent suggestion to combat the moire problem. Of course, as I knew this already, he defended himself by using the argument that every DB back has moire, and another bunch of reasons. Of course, I can always trade it my back for a new back at a very unbelieveable price (almost at 3/4 for the price of a new back). At that time, I felt like to grab the P25+ back and shoved it into his .... The thing that dissapoint me in this matter is that , personally, I felt that all this problem is b***sh**. If a manufacturer , and, or distributor knew about the problem why don't they disclose the information to the customer. Of course, I am also at fault. I did not do my homework properly, but the question is how do I do the homework properly? I meant how detailed should I do the research before I made my purchase? How much time do I have to spend to do the research? Please let me know if anyone who bought the phase one back knew about the moire problem and still purchased the back. I am really sorry for the rant. I felt really hopeless at this moment.
Sorry to say I did my homework and my dealer CI ( Doug and Company) certainly pointed it out. Plus i tested all 3 backs at the time. P25,P30 and P45+went with the 25 first than decided I wanted the P30+ a year later for other reasons like higher ISO and faster shooting but certainly knew of the Moire and told my buyer the same thing. Reason why you go to a good dealer and not buy by price alone.
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Sorry to say I did my homework and my dealer CI ( Doug and Company) certainly pointed it out. Plus i tested all 3 backs at the time. P25,P30 and P45+went with the 25 first than decided I wanted the P30+ a year later for other reasons like higher ISO and faster shooting but certainly knew of the Moire and told my buyer the same thing. Reason why you go to a good dealer and not buy by price alone.
Unfortunately, there is only one phase one dealer here. And No, price is not my deciding factor. I can get a substantially better deal on Hassy or Leaf at that moment. I can even get my PhaseOne from the United States a lot cheaper, but no, I bought it here locally because I want the good and honest support. I went with PhaseOne because of the quality. The thing is, your dealer, pointed the problem out, mine did not.
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Yes and I am not sure on your location and it seems outside the thrust of the market. I feel bad that this was not brought up to you and even when I resold mine it was the first thing I brought up. Although there are some tricks around it and if you see it and even in the LCD you can than just back the focus off a touch and than stop down another stop or so. What is the problem is the focus is so critical at that Nyquist limit you have to defocus it . I shoot a lot of corporate and industrial work and one client is in the Aerospace market and I shoot cockpit display's sometimes and that is what i have to do is back off on the focus but keep the DOF still pretty good to keep it sharp. Works very well actually
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Thanks for all the support. Feel much better already . I guess, I'll have to be careful next time.
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Thanks for all the support. Feel much better already . I guess, I'll have to be careful next time.
If it helps even further, I too know about the issue and still use this back. I guess I don't shoot enough fashion to experience this. Not yet at least.
In my opinion and observations, the P25 is the sweet spot in the Phase line up.
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Thanks for the support Phil. I agree with you, P25 is the sweet spot for me too. As I stated before, when I purchased this back, my work involved still life most of the time. The image quality is superb. Unfortunately, the moire problem on certain textures or fabric really ticked me off. The distributor did not point out this problem to me. Should I know about this problem, I would've gotten the P30+ instead (offered at the same price at that moment), which should minimize the moire problem.
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I really loved the P25+ with the 9 micron sensor there is just something about the look in the files with those big fat pixels. Has a lot of zip to the image. The P30+ is better at moire but you will still get it. Honestly after trying the P40+ with the 6 micron sensor it maybe the best on Moire. For textile shooters maybe the best back for it. In my test it beat the 6.8 sensors on moire, not only that it is really fast to shoot. I'm actually looking at upgrading again to it. Just need to get a nice deal and find a nice friendly bank. LOL
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if moire is diminished by smaller sensor cells P25>P45>P65 etc, does that mean the (amateur) cameras with incredibly small sensor cell sizes don't need an AA filter?
does anyone know if canon reduce the strength of the AA filter as the sensor cells get smaller?
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Moire will always be there and the real issue is this 10,000 to 50000 screaming Canon shooters about moire in there files. Just imagine the PR damage, main reason they stick those stupid things on there plus they get some noise benefit
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I really loved the P25+ with the 9 micron sensor there is just something about the look in the files with those big fat pixels. Has a lot of zip to the image. The P30+ is better at moire but you will still get it. Honestly after trying the P40+ with the 6 micron sensor it maybe the best on Moire. For textile shooters maybe the best back for it. In my test it beat the 6.8 sensors on moire, not only that it is really fast to shoot. I'm actually looking at upgrading again to it. Just need to get a nice deal and find a nice friendly bank. LOL
The Hasselblad H3D11-60 and the P65+ have 6 micron pixels, and the phocus moire reduction, and the res, it might make the Hasselblad H3D11-60 the perfect camera for textiles.
Error corrected - I had said the the 50 had 5 micron pixels.
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Thanks Dick I did not realize the Hassy 50 is 5 microns. I would have to agree from what I saw on the back of the air conditioner I shot the Moire pattern got tighter the lower the Microns. Certainly be easier to correct for sure in or out of Phocus
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The Hasselblad H3D11-60 and the P65+ have 6 micron pixels, but the H3D11-50 has 5 micron pixels... and the phocus moire reduction, and the res, it might make the Hasselblad H3D11-50 the perfect camera for textiles.
That is not correct.
The H3D-50 is 6 microns and therefore has extremely similar moire characteristics as a P65+ or P40+. (Hassy Tech Spec Sheet (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342809/uk_h3dii50_datasheet_v5.pdf))
Phocus' and Capture One's moire reduction are extremely similar in quality. Though, always one to give credit where credit is due, the Phocus option to export as layered PSD is genius and saves time over having to export once with and without moire reduction in Capture One. I prefer Capture One in general for nearly innumerable features, but the layered-PSD export is just plain better than C1's options.
Doug
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Yea I thought it was the same sensor being used in the Leica S2 a Kodak version of the Dalsa 6 micron. Thanks Doug
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That is not correct.
The H3D-50 is 6 microns and therefore has extremely similar moire characteristics as a P65+ or P40+.
Doug
Thank you for the correction, doug, I should have checked
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Thank you for the correction, doug, I should have checked
No problem. Frankly I kinda wish I didn't have those things memorized. Sometimes I feel like there must be important information I forget because space is being taken up with obscure tech specs.
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Thanks for the support Phil. I agree with you, P25 is the sweet spot for me too. As I stated before, when I purchased this back, my work involved still life most of the time. The image quality is superb. Unfortunately, the moire problem on certain textures or fabric really ticked me off. The distributor did not point out this problem to me. Should I know about this problem, I would've gotten the P30+ instead (offered at the same price at that moment), which should minimize the moire problem.
Kristen, don't look for a ledge or think your alone because everyone who has bought a mfdb thought moire would be a problem that only happens to others, usually to find when it happens to them it's a very difficult thing to fix.
The p30+ will minimize moire vs a 22mpx sensor but it won't go away. All of the non AA filter backs moire and the only way to to stop it is to use those caprock filters, or hand hold, which has slightly more blur and less chance of excactly the same position, or shoot continuous light with slower shutters, which all slightly blurs the image, but 18mpx to 39mpx all backs moire.
Out of all the backs I've owned the 22mpx backs seem to moire the most, but that's a non scientific statement as I rarely shot one medium format back next to the other and find I've see less moire in the 18mpx p21 vs. the p30+ but that could be I don't use the p21 very often.
If you want to end the moire problems once you are on set, there is only three logical alternatives, either place a digital tech on a computer and have them check every file, with you moving up and down back and forth trying to find a spot where it doesn't show up, shoot the garment close to the same position separately and blend it in post, or buy a Canon and shoot everything that looks problematic with it.
On this board everyone screams about the lost of micro detail if a camera has an AA filter, but the few times I've shot mfdb side by side with a Canon the AD's liked the look of the Canon because they think it looks more film like (their words, not mine), probably because it doesn't look oversharpened, so as photographers are beating their heads against the wall trying to find that extra 4% of sharpness their clients given the choice probably think most oversharp images look "digital", whatever that means.
If you don't give anyone a comparison nobody knows either way, aa filter, no aa filter, clients just look at the shot, they don't pull out a 20x loupe, so whatever solution you reach make life easy on yourself.
BC
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On this board everyone screams about the lost of micro detail if a camera has an AA filter, but the few times I've shot mfdb side by side with a Canon the AD's liked the look of the Canon because they think it looks more film like (their words, not mine), probably because it doesn't look oversharpened, so as photographers are beating their heads against the wall trying to find that extra 4% of sharpness their clients given the choice probably think most oversharp images look "digital", whatever that means.
If you don't give anyone a comparison nobody knows either way, aa filter, no aa filter, clients just look at the shot, they don't pull out a 20x loupe, so whatever solution you reach make life easy on yourself.
BC
This is where it really makes a difference what you shoot. If sharpness is not highly critical in your subject matter, there is little to knit pick. If you are doing subjects that require the best of the best, and I am not only talking about enlargments, the sharpness is very important for detail work.