Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: ChrisJR on July 21, 2009, 08:55:55 am
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I'm photographing a large wedding this week (24th) for which a contract has been signed and the deposit was paid (albeit it took many weeks to come through).
Now with the wedding coming up the couple are being tools. They have refused to pay the full amount and have said they will be three quarters of the total amount due instead. Thing is, the wedding is only a couple days away and I still haven't received another payment. Pre-wedding shoot is tomorrow btw.
Perhaps this topic would be suited better to somewhere like the DWF forum (which I'm not a member of yet) but I'm sure this situation could apply to more commercial photography.
What would you do? Would you still do the photography despite not receiving the money (even though contract has been signed). Could be very beneficial to my portfolio so I'm in a quandry.
My wife is really pissed off about this and I'm getting increasingly annoyed (we're moving house next week so we need all the money we can get right now). Love to hear people's opinions.
Thanks
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I recommend following the terms of the contract you signed with your clients. What are the terms in regards to when the balance is due? Is it due prior to the wedding and pre-wedding shoot or after? If it is due before, then I would wait until I receive the balance to do the photography.
ALain
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Hi Chris,
I recommend following the terms of the contract you signed with your clients. What are the terms in regards to when the balance is due? Is it due prior to the wedding and pre-wedding shoot or after? If it is due before, then I would wait until I receive the balance to do the photography.
ALain
Hi Alain,
Term of the contract was 30% deposit to secure my services (paid a few weeks after the initial meeting) then final payment at least two weeks before the date of the wedding itself (not the pre-shoot).
Thanks
Chris
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Hi Alain,
Term of the contract was 30% deposit to secure my services (paid a few weeks after the initial meeting) then final payment at least two weeks before the date of the wedding itself (not the pre-shoot).
Thanks
Chris
Chris,
Then my recommendation is to enforce the terms of the contract. Don't work for less than you were contracted for.
Alain
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follow the contract. Success is in the HOW.
if you shoot, then you have the "film". Before they get the prints you get the money.
If you doubt that they are going to pay and you have another job available, then you have a more complex situation. Let them know that you are prepared to honor the commitment to the level and degree that they are.
remember, honesty is an advantage, particularly when it is so rare. And more importantly " Possession is 90% of the Memory."
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Do you know why they only want to give 3/4 payment? Is there some extenuating circumstance that has arisen? I say, if they're just trying to play hardball, then you need to simply stick to the terms. However, if you find that a legitimate reason for their actions has arisen, then you might want to renegotiate. I stress the word "legitimate"- they could just lie to you to get you to take less money.
In general, I've found that miscommunications account for many if not most of the problems I've had with negotiations, so if you can reopen discussion and if both sides remian level headed, perhaps you can work out a solution.
John
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If there are genuine extenuating circumstances and you are still keen to take the assignment you could restructure the contract on the basis of you delivering an amount of work equal to the proposed payment. Depending on how you charge for the packages that could be less time on site, fewer final processed images, no album etc. The overall quality should still be 100%, but deliver less.
This is a common strategy in consulting firms when they come under pricing pressure from clients. They don't wan't to reduce quality/price - they have a reputation to maintain after all - but want to show flexibility with a client in order to develop the relationship over the long term. The principle is the same in your case, you only need to consider that it's unlikely you will developing a long term relationship.
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follow the contract. Success is in the HOW.
if you shoot, then you have the "film". Before they get the prints you get the money.
If you doubt that they are going to pay and you have another job available, then you have a more complex situation. Let them know that you are prepared to honor the commitment to the level and degree that they are.
remember, honesty is an advantage, particularly when it is so rare. And more importantly " Possession is 90% of the Memory."
I don't have another job on that day but I'm thinking take the photos. I'm supposed to be doing the pre wedding shoot tomorrow afternoon but I'll demand they pay me or I may not take any photos.
Do you know why they only want to give 3/4 payment? Is there some extenuating circumstance that has arisen? I say, if they're just trying to play hardball, then you need to simply stick to the terms. However, if you find that a legitimate reason for their actions has arisen, then you might want to renegotiate. I stress the word "legitimate"- they could just lie to you to get you to take less money.
In general, I've found that miscommunications account for many if not most of the problems I've had with negotiations, so if you can reopen discussion and if both sides remian level headed, perhaps you can work out a solution.
John
They said they only want to give me 3/4 payment for two reasons. Firstly they were apparently told they don't have to pay the full amount before the actual day of shooting (who told them that they didn't say). Then they said they were worried I would rip them off and not provide them with any photos at all. I'm definitely not that kind of person and I couldn't if I wanted because of the contract. Idiots!
This is a common strategy in consulting firms when they come under pricing pressure from clients. They don't wan't to reduce quality/price - they have a reputation to maintain after all - but want to show flexibility with a client in order to develop the relationship over the long term. The principle is the same in your case, you only need to consider that it's unlikely you will developing a long term relationship.
I don't think I want to develop a long term relation with them the way things are going. I shoot quite a lot of weddings and never do I get problems with people paying.
Thanks for the replies all, I'll have a meeting with the couple tomorrow and see what happens.
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I don't have another job on that day but I'm thinking take the photos. I'm supposed to be doing the pre wedding shoot tomorrow afternoon but I'll demand they pay me or I may not take any photos.
Not taking the photos is the nuclear option: once the day passes, the opportunity is lost. They'll have no photos and you'll have no money (and there'll be no end of bickering about the deposit you've already received).
If you had another job that would definitely pay, you might have a hard decision to make. But you don't. So go, spend the time, take the photos and then, as has been suggested, don't deliver so much as a single proof until you've been paid (or possibly give them jpegs of one or two of the best shots, heavily watermarked). You'll be in a much stronger position than if you'd simply not gone. If they pay, great. If they don't pay, you'll have wasted more time, which would be a shame, but at least you have the deposit, reasonably safe from any argument on recovery.
I'm not a wedding photographer, but that would seem to me to be the sensible way to behave, maximising your chances of getting the balance of the cash.
Jeremy
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Weddings are a bit different. I think you open up a larger can of worms with potentially long-term business consqequences if you don't go ahead and follow through with your part of the contract. Photograph the wedding. You've performed on the contract. You don't miss covering this very special day---or risk your business reputation (right or wrong) from the fallout.
Don't process the images. Just store the files. Don't deliver anything---zero, nada, zilch----- until they pay in full.
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Have they paid the caterer in full? The venue? The band? I suspect they have, or there would be no food, no music, and no place to wed.
I am in general agreement with the others, in that I would shoot the wedding and then enforce the terms of the contract after the fact. (No money = no pictures.) BUT I would make this very clear before the pre-wedding shoot. I would do this in a very positive way, something along the lines of "the contract is in default, and while I am not obligated to either photograph your wedding or return your initial payment, I will uphold my end of the contract by photographing your wedding and you can pay me in full afterward, at which point I will happily provide your photos." I have found that being positive and upbeat almost always improves the situation, no matter how badly I might feel about it (or how angry my wife might be -- been there.)
As an aside, here in North Carolina, the wedding photographers that I know don't ask for or get "deposits." Instead they get a "retainer." My understanding is that there are specific legal definitions of the word "deposit" in a business transaction, and one unfortunate part is that a deposit is fully refundable if the client chooses to cancel the job. A retainer is not. (As usual, I am not a lawyer.) Of course, this is probably different in every American state and most countries.
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Miracously, this morning a few hours before the preshoot was supposed to happen (they decided against the pre shoot as we had torrential rain here in Edinburgh) another payment came through.
Weddings are a bit different. I think you open up a larger can of worms with potentially long-term business consqequences if you don't go ahead and follow through with your part of the contract. Photograph the wedding. You've performed on the contract. You don't miss covering this very special day---or risk your business reputation (right or wrong) from the fallout.
Don't process the images. Just store the files. Don't deliver anything---zero, nada, zilch----- until they pay in full.
This is kind of what we have decided. We'll do the photography and I'll process the images (benefitial for my portfolio), but I won't provide them with anything at all until the full balance has been coughed up. I agreed before that I would create them their own private webpage for which I may need but with watermarks or water-effect style rollover which will prevent them doing anything with the images. My watermarks will be virtually impossible to remove from the images.
Have they paid the caterer in full? The venue? The band? I suspect they have, or there would be no food, no music, and no place to wed.
I am in general agreement with the others, in that I would shoot the wedding and then enforce the terms of the contract after the fact. (No money = no pictures.) BUT I would make this very clear before the pre-wedding shoot. I would do this in a very positive way, something along the lines of "the contract is in default, and while I am not obligated to either photograph your wedding or return your initial payment, I will uphold my end of the contract by photographing your wedding and you can pay me in full afterward, at which point I will happily provide your photos." I have found that being positive and upbeat almost always improves the situation, no matter how badly I might feel about it (or how angry my wife might be -- been there.)
As an aside, here in North Carolina, the wedding photographers that I know don't ask for or get "deposits." Instead they get a "retainer." My understanding is that there are specific legal definitions of the word "deposit" in a business transaction, and one unfortunate part is that a deposit is fully refundable if the client chooses to cancel the job. A retainer is not. (As usual, I am not a lawyer.) Of course, this is probably different in every American state and most countries.
I very much suspect they will have paid for the venue/food/band etc in full. Especially considering they are having the wedding at a very expensive hotel with it's own private golf course. Now some more money has come through we are definitely more positive.
Interesting about calling it retainer instead of deposit, I wasn't aware of the legal implications of calling it "deposit". Generally I think people here call it deposit and I do state in the contract the deposit is non refundable but I'll definitely look into this more before another wedding (or whatever kind of photography work I'm paid to do) contract is signed.
Thanks
Chris
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Interesting about calling it retainer instead of deposit, I wasn't aware of the legal implications of calling it "deposit".
Again, I am not an attorney, and laws differ widely between individual countries and states. There may be no legal implications where you are. Your contract terms may be perfectly sufficient -- but if it were me I would run them by a lawyer just to be on the safe side. In fact, every small business person should do this.
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As an aside, here in North Carolina, the wedding photographers that I know don't ask for or get "deposits." Instead they get a "retainer." My understanding is that there are specific legal definitions of the word "deposit" in a business transaction, and one unfortunate part is that a deposit is fully refundable if the client chooses to cancel the job. A retainer is not. (As usual, I am not a lawyer.) Of course, this is probably different in every American state and most countries.
I suspect that what you call it doesn't really matter: what's important is what, looked at objectively, it is. As one very senior judge observed, when discussing whether a document which the parties had described in one way was in fact something else,
"The manufacture of a five-pronged instrument for manual digging results in a fork, even if the manufacturer, unfamiliar with the English language, insists that he intended to make, and has made, a spade."
I'd suggest discussing the idea with a Scottish lawyer before placing reliance on it.
Jeremy
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I'd suggest discussing the idea with a Scottish lawyer before placing reliance on it.
Jeremy
Jeremy, that Scottish lawyer would happily go to court and face another Scottish lawyer holding the opposite view/interpretation. Being a lawyer is not about holding the right or wrong or definitive opinion. It is about maximising the return on the investment on office space. Were it otherwise, nothing would ever need to go to court.
Don´t go near them other than to make a will.
Rob C (Still nursing an old Scottish sting.)
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Jeremy, that Scottish lawyer would happily go to court and face another Scottish lawyer holding the opposite view/interpretation. Being a lawyer is not about holding the right or wrong or definitive opinion. It is about maximising the return on the investment on office space. Were it otherwise, nothing would ever need to go to court.
Not in my experience. Opinions will differ. Memories of facts differ, memories of intentions, perhaps the intentions themselves, differ. Views of the reasonableness, or otherwise, of actions taken will differ. Views on the outcomes had different actions been taken will differ. Disputes will require resolution.
Rob C (Still nursing an old Scottish sting.)
Plainly.
Jeremy
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Not in my experience. Opinions will differ. Memories of facts differ, memories of intentions, perhaps the intentions themselves, differ. Views of the reasonableness, or otherwise, of actions taken will differ. Views on the outcomes had different actions been taken will differ. Disputes will require resolution.
Plainly.
Jeremy
Jeremy, seems to me you have simply restated my own case. Just like any old lawyer, then...
;-)
Rob C
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I'm photographing a large wedding this week (24th) for which a contract has been signed and the deposit was paid (albeit it took many weeks to come through).
Now with the wedding coming up the couple are being tools. They have refused to pay the full amount and have said they will be three quarters of the total amount due instead. Thing is, the wedding is only a couple days away and I still haven't received another payment. Pre-wedding shoot is tomorrow btw.
Perhaps this topic would be suited better to somewhere like the DWF forum (which I'm not a member of yet) but I'm sure this situation could apply to more commercial photography.
What would you do? Would you still do the photography despite not receiving the money (even though contract has been signed). Could be very beneficial to my portfolio so I'm in a quandry.
My wife is really pissed off about this and I'm getting increasingly annoyed (we're moving house next week so we need all the money we can get right now). Love to hear people's opinions.
Thanks
Chris
Consider the event a mirror of your character. Forget the buyers, as in their eyes, they probably feel justified. Rightly or wrongly doesn’t really matter for the sake of the conversation.
Were it me, unless they buyers were rude and overtly trying to screw me, I would do the work, and make it my best. I would also refuse to provide them with any proofs until the contractual obligation for payment was met. It is vital to maintain a good-faith attitude.
Once you do the wedding, they have no recource beyond payment. Were you to walk, they would probably bad-mouth you to others, and possibly even do some consumer protection actions. It isn’t worth going through. In these cases, even if you are right, you take a hit. Sometimes the hit makes the newspapers
I do have one question: Why did they suggest paying 75%?
It’s hard but try not to let money or your own sense of urgent need get in the way of your integrity.
I did weddings for a couple of years. The buyers are always looking for or trying to force a deal. I could share stories.
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Consider the event a mirror of your character. Forget the buyers, as in their eyes, they probably feel justified. Rightly or wrongly doesn’t really matter for the sake of the conversation.
Were it me, unless they buyers were rude and overtly trying to screw me, I would do the work, and make it my best. I would also refuse to provide them with any proofs until the contractual obligation for payment was met. It is vital to maintain a good-faith attitude.
Once you do the wedding, they have no recource beyond payment. Were you to walk, they would probably bad-mouth you to others, and possibly even do some consumer protection actions. It isn’t worth going through. In these cases, even if you are right, you take a hit. Sometimes the hit makes the newspapers
I do have one question: Why did they suggest paying 75%?
It’s hard but try not to let money or your own sense of urgent need get in the way of your integrity.
I did weddings for a couple of years. The buyers are always looking for or trying to force a deal. I could share stories.
They said they were worried about me ripping them off but also the groom (who I've had the most contact with) had been stressing about the cost of the wedding.
I'm fairly disappointed they would like think that of me but I can understand to an extent. Anyway, more money has now arrived and we did the pre-shoot on Thursday which turned out great, so I don't think getting the rest of the money will be a problem.
As people have suggested, they are right that I should still shoot the wedding. I've only been shooting weddings seriously for a year or so now and I definitely can't afford to take a negative hit. Plus the images should be totally beneficial for my portfolio.
Thanks
Chris
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They are NOT interested in you, as a professional, artist or the quality of your work. You are simply a number in the wedding and are now treated as such.
If they do not pay you AS SPECIFIED in the contract, do you honestly think you will have the proper mindset and attitude during the day to do a great job as usual? Most likely if they are acting this way now, they will in the future. You may only have more frustration coming your way.
I would take whatever non-refundable deposit you have, refund the rest and say good day, if they have not paid you UP FRONT at the start of the shooting day. Tell them that is the plan now and to have the check ready before you begin. Don't think for a SECOND the other wedding vendors operate the same way, as mentioned.
No check? No food. No check? No venue.
I HATE clients that only see you as a number. If you don't appreciate my work, I don't need you as a client.
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Miracously, this morning a few hours before the preshoot was supposed to happen (they decided against the pre shoot as we had torrential rain here in Edinburgh) another payment came through.
This is kind of what we have decided. We'll do the photography and I'll process the images (benefitial for my portfolio), but I won't provide them with anything at all until the full balance has been coughed up. I agreed before that I would create them their own private webpage for which I may need but with watermarks or water-effect style rollover which will prevent them doing anything with the images. My watermarks will be virtually impossible to remove from the images.
I very much suspect they will have paid for the venue/food/band etc in full. Especially considering they are having the wedding at a very expensive hotel with it's own private golf course. Now some more money has come through we are definitely more positive.
Interesting about calling it retainer instead of deposit, I wasn't aware of the legal implications of calling it "deposit". Generally I think people here call it deposit and I do state in the contract the deposit is non refundable but I'll definitely look into this more before another wedding (or whatever kind of photography work I'm paid to do) contract is signed.
Thanks
Chris
Hi Chris,
in the UK, it would be called a booking fee rather than a retainer, this booking fee would not be refundable in the event of a cancellation whereas, as has been mentioned above, a deposit is something that could be enforced to be returned in the event of a cancellation.
Cheers John
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They said they were worried about me ripping them off but also the groom (who I've had the most contact with) had been stressing about the cost of the wedding.
The 2nd part is their primary motivator and the first is a reasonable comment, but mostly a smoke-screen.
I'm fairly disappointed they would like think that of me but I can understand to an extent. Anyway, more money has now arrived and we did the pre-shoot on Thursday which turned out great, so I don't think getting the rest of the money will be a problem.
Excellent! It’s important to point out that you should never take comments of this kind personally. A lot of people get way over their heads on weddings, both financially, and especially emotionally. That is part of doing this kind of work. It is always smart to keep a cool head when others around you aren’t doing that.
As people have suggested, they are right that I should still shoot the wedding. I've only been shooting weddings seriously for a year or so now and I definitely can't afford to take a negative hit. Plus the images should be totally beneficial for my portfolio.
There are always more upsides to a job well done than downsides. I'm glad to read that it is moving foreword okay.
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After struggling with similar cases I now encorporate a £50 late pay fee in the contract if the full balance is not paid either on or by the day of the wedding. I don't have the time or patience chasing up cheques after the event. Of course until the full fee and any extras such as this late pay charge are paid I don't even touch the images.
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The 2nd part is their primary motivator and the first is a reasonable comment, but mostly a smoke-screen.
Excellent! It’s important to point out that you should never take comments of this kind personally. A lot of people get way over their heads on weddings, both financially, and especially emotionally. That is part of doing this kind of work. It is always smart to keep a cool head when others around you aren’t doing that.
There are always more upsides to a job well done than downsides. I'm glad to read that it is moving foreword okay.
Indeed it's a smoke screen. I've just discovered their cheque, which was received two days before the main day has no bounced but I've told them I won't release anything until full payment has now received.
Funny thing is they were great to work with on the day but a real pain in the ass to deal with otherwise.
I've shot quite a lot of weddings now as well as undertaking quite a few other forms of photography and have never experienced this much hassle before.
After struggling with similar cases I now encorporate a £50 late pay fee in the contract if the full balance is not paid either on or by the day of the wedding. I don't have the time or patience chasing up cheques after the event. Of course until the full fee and any extras such as this late pay charge are paid I don't even touch the images.
I think I'll have to incorporate late fee's into my future contracts. I also definitely don't have the time or patience to chase up cheques and nor does my partner (we both work approximately 50-60 hours per week each).
I'm touching up images that are beneficial for my portfolio but that's it.
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I'm touching up images that are beneficial for my portfolio but that's it.
I meant that I won't 'touch' the images, i.e. process or print or web or anything until I'm paid. They'll sit there as naked RAW's until that cheque has cleared, just as I wouldn't have sent films for development until paid in the old days.
Cheque bounced? Ouch!
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I meant that I won't 'touch' the images, i.e. process or print or web or anything until I'm paid. They'll sit there as naked RAW's until that cheque has cleared, just as I wouldn't have sent films for development until paid in the old days.
Cheque bounced? Ouch!
I know what you meant. Normally I wouldn't touch RAW images at all, but some of the images will be beneficial for me. The couple won't have access to any images at all.
Cheque bouncing is very annoying indeed. I called the couple yesterday only to receive a message that they are going on holiday for ten days
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> Indeed it's a smoke screen. I've just discovered their cheque, which was received two days before the main day has no bounced but I've told them I won't release anything until full payment has now received.
I can’t tell from your comment if the check bounced or not. If it has, check your local laws. Around here you can recover up to 3x the amount of the check if it bounces. You can probably also go after the newlyweds for fraud. Doing so will get their attention and likely their compliance in very short order! They will come up with some embarrassed excuse. You can learn a lot from watching how some try to wiggle out of responsibility.
> Funny thing is they were great to work with on the day but a real pain in the ass to deal with otherwise.
Been there before. My condolences!
> I've shot quite a lot of weddings now as well as undertaking quite a few other forms of photography and have never experienced this much hassle before.
I had a couple of cases like yours. I always give best efforts, and in trade for that, politely require accountability on the part of the buyer. When I first started my company, I found the best contract I could (from a large computer retailer), changed the wording so it would fit my company, then had an attorney review it. After that I had a 2nd attorney review the first attorney’s work. The cost was me doing some work for free for the attorneys. And in over 20 years I've never had a challenge to the contract that required me to say anything more than “read the contract.”
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> Indeed it's a smoke screen. I've just discovered their cheque, which was received two days before the main day has no bounced but I've told them I won't release anything until full payment has now received.
I can’t tell from your comment if the check bounced or not. If it has, check your local laws. Around here you can recover up to 3x the amount of the check if it bounces. You can probably also go after the newlyweds for fraud. Doing so will get their attention and likely their compliance in very short order! They will come up with some embarrassed excuse. You can learn a lot from watching how some try to wiggle out of responsibility.
The cheque did bounce. I went to my bank Monday and it has been returned stating the client had insufficient funds in their account. Working right now but will try to find time to go to speak to my bank later
Thanks
Chris
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The cheque did bounce. I went to my bank Monday and it has been returned stating the client had insufficient funds in their account. Working right now but will try to find time to go to speak to my bank later
Thanks
Chris
Be philosophical. You're not in a worse position than you would have been if you had followed my advice (and that of others here), and done the day without payment.
You could sue on the bounced cheque and win without any difficulty. Whether you'd ever see the money is another matter, since many small judgments go unpaid, and you'll then have added court fees to your loss.
However, you did the day; the atmosphere was not spoiled, since you thought that there were no money worries; and now you have them over a barrel. Until they give you a cheque which clears (and obviously you don't release anything until you have cleared funds in your account, which usually takes three or four days), they have no photographs of their wedding day. If they pay, great. If they don't, well, you chalk it up to experience and you've lost nothing but your time.
My sympathies. People are bloody awful to deal with sometimes.
Jeremy
I'll bet they paid for their holiday, though!
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Pffft - not getting images from us is NOT leverage for cheap people. I still have a pair of weddings from over a year ago that didn't order a thing. Luckily I ALWAYS get full payment for time up front, so I wasn't out anything but it boggles my mind that they didn't order anything yet (if ever). In communications they say they just don't have the money, and as with all weddings there were tons of guests shooting, some over my shoulder - which IS good enough for some people. Most likely they just took the free route.
The worst-case here, he gets stiffed for the shoot and loses money, and that is a possibility.
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Pffft - not getting images from us is NOT leverage for cheap people. I still have a pair of weddings from over a year ago that didn't order a thing. Luckily I ALWAYS get full payment for time up front, so I wasn't out anything but it boggles my mind that they didn't order anything yet (if ever). In communications they say they just don't have the money, and as with all weddings there were tons of guests shooting, some over my shoulder - which IS good enough for some people. Most likely they just took the free route.
The worst-case here, he gets stiffed for the shoot and loses money, and that is a possibility.
Funny thing is the couple do have money, clearly from the venue they chose. I've already been asked for loads of paid prints and I'm hopeful the full money will come through. Problem for me right now is I can't turn down any work due to responsibilities I have. If anything comes along, of course I want to get paid full money for them and more money has been assured that it's coming through.
I've notified the couple nothing is for sale until the full balance is received.
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I completely understand your situation and sympathize with your need to do whatever job you can - but that doesn't change the fact you may get stiffed because you didn't follow safer procedures. Your need for money doesn't make them give it to you.
I hope this turns out alright - just be aware of the other possabilities and prepare for them. Hope doesn't pay the bills.