Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Frank Doorhof on June 08, 2009, 08:24:38 am
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For reasons I don't want on the forum I'm probably switching from my Mamiya body (645AFD/III)
I really want to stay with the Leaf back I'm using so there are not much real options.
So I think I will end up with a H1 or H2 body and the need to convert my Aptus back to fit the Hasselblad and get a convertor to mount the "new" back to the Mamiya RZ67ProII which I will keep using.
At the moment I'm using most :
35mm
55-110mm
105-210mm for portrait work
The questions are simple but for me complicated
1. switching will cost me alot of time/effort and probably money (the first two is not really a problem)
2. Which lenses for the hasselblad system would be good alternatives without breaking the bank at first, I don't mind manual focus on MF.
3. Will the quality compared to the 645 system be better or worse when using the same leaf back.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
at the moment nothing is yet decided but I'm looking into every possibility.
And because here the MF experts are
ps if someone wants to buy my whole mamiya collection please let me know
645 AFD/III newest firmware / 35mm / 80mm 2.8AF / 80mm 1.9MF / 55-110AF / 105-210AF / 120mm macro / Film back / Aptus 22 digital back (saves me the option to convert it)
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you can get the 50-110mm for about $2500 and the 35mm $2300 for about the same price, used.
I was in the same boat as you so I sympathise. Best bet is to get the mount changed and get a H1/H2 body of course, the mount change is $2500, an RZ converter is another $500 or $600 probably...ouch once again.
There isn't a long zoom for the hassy, 150 and 210 are about $2000 each yes?
you can get a CF lens adapter but honestly that piece of equipment costs about $1000 which seems excessive...you're better off saving for the lenses you need rather than getting it now and selling it off later and buying a H lens again.
I'll be hard pressed to see how the H lenses are any worse than a mamiya lens. their 35mm is definitely better than the 35mm I have for my mamiya.
For reasons I don't want on the forum I'm probably switching from my Mamiya body (645AFD/III)
I really want to stay with the Leaf back I'm using so there are not much real options.
So I think I will end up with a H1 or H2 body and the need to convert my Aptus back to fit the Hasselblad and get a convertor to mount the "new" back to the Mamiya RZ67ProII which I will keep using.
At the moment I'm using most :
35mm
55-110mm
105-210mm for portrait work
The questions are simple but for me complicated
1. switching will cost me alot of time/effort and probably money (the first two is not really a problem)
2. Which lenses for the hasselblad system would be good alternatives without breaking the bank at first, I don't mind manual focus on MF.
3. Will the quality compared to the 645 system be better or worse when using the same leaf back.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
at the moment nothing is yet decided but I'm looking into every possibility.
And because here the MF experts are
ps if someone wants to buy my whole mamiya collection please let me know
645 AFD/III newest firmware / 35mm / 80mm 2.8AF / 80mm 1.9MF / 55-110AF / 105-210AF / 120mm macro / Film back / Aptus 22 digital back (saves me the option to convert it)
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Not for one thing or the other but why not change to a H back (CF or H3) all together? I understand you really like the Leaf backs so do I but the additional benefit of software corrections (with already excellent lenses) is pretty significant IMO. Selling your Leaf and going for a H3DII31 might be not that expensive alltogether. You will experience some pain but whatever way you go with this you probably will, financial pain that is. Going the H2F/CF way will give you much more flexibity but is only advisable when you plan on using your back on all sorts of other stuff as well as using film.
Now if you are looking for a replacement for your lens range I would opt for the 50-110 zoom which is an excellent lens though heavy. The 35 I find to be only performing when stopped down otherwise I personally find it not a very exciting lens. The 28 much more so which you can only use with a Hasselblad back. Normally I would also recommend the HC150 to you because it falls in your range and its AF is significantly faster and more responsive than that of the 210. However I find the 150 suffers from CA much more than the 210 if not corrected, the HC210 is a great lens but it is slow.
The one lens which I use most on my H is the HC100. If there is one lens I could not do without it would be that one. The 2nd would be the HC50-110.
Getting the CF adapter? Personally I see no reason why you should (unless you perse want to use the 180 or the 250superachromat).
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If you don't mind manual focus then maybe look at the Hasselblad V series. I'm not sure about the adaption of that back to the V mount. The cost on that series has dropped quite a bit. The lenses are all fantastic and the bodies are solid and simple. That would be my two cents worth.
Alex Jones, Digital Tech Pittsburgh
www.alexrjones.com
www.steelgatestudio.com
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I have really two thoughts here. One is image quality and not sure a switch would buy you really any advantage. Sure some lenses maybe slightly better than there counterparts , this works both ways but as a system as a whole and the same back not sure the money, time and investment is truly worth it. I thought the same things several times myself and not for some obvious reasons like a leaf shutter than what was really the point. Really all of these systems besides certain prejudice all really produce great images and more preference , software and such makes one chose over the other. But there all very good systems in the IQ dept.
Second thought obviously comes down to the Leaf back and with all there rumors floating around, not that any are any viable than any other .But does make you stop for pause. As mentioned software and all this stuff plays a important part in the decision process but switching out body systems unless for your own personal reasons not mentioned but from a IQ point of view only than you have to question those thoughts. Always a tough call on this stuff but many of the Mamiya lenses are extremely good as well as the Hassy lenses and end of day i see no CLEAR lens system being any better than the other and if staying with the Leaf back than what would be the point from a IQ point of view. Others reasons prevailing of course on feature needs which one may bring over the other.
Also looking at what you have in lenses on the Mamiya you may want to consider some better glass like the 150 D or 70-150 D, 45d and 80 D . I have the 28,45,80, 150 D lenses myself and they are very good and much better than some of those zooms you have . May want to consider getting rid of those and look at the 70-150 D zoom. Just some thoughts
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Frank,
What about the AFi?
Eric
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hehe.....search for the holy grail continues. It's an addiction for sure!!
Whatever you are getting into now, you will feel like changing in the next two years!
Frank, you have good equpiment you lusted for four years back. Do you really need the H1/H2 or you want??
regards,
sid.
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Frank,
What about the AFi?
Eric
Since I view everything from a commercial standpoint, I'd just buy all Hasselblad. The prices are less than everyone else and they have the ONLY complete lens line. The HY6 has no autofocus wide angle and let's be realistic they are in reorganization, the Mamiya lenses are not that much cheaper than the blad lenses and they don't have a 100mm F2 something. 100mm to 110mm is a magic number for a lot of what I do.
If you have a complete hasselblad and you need to update firmware you can do it without sending it in. As far as the use, or goodness of the hasselblad back I haven't used one enough to judge that.
Blad is also the ONLY medium format standard in rental, so if you travel or need backups, well you get the picture.
Now if I just wanted to save money and have a better camera and lens set I'd buy used Contax because I have them, they are sharp through the range and do everything a Mamiya will do, it just does it better. I've had the phase and contax's for a while and had so few issues they are not worth mentioning, (other than the constant updates to V4).
If I was going the Phase/Contax route I'd just buy used or refurbished, because in today's market you can probably get a complete 31 to 39mpx system for the price of a new D3x.
Now before I'd do any of this, I'd lay out a 1ds3, a d3x, a Hasselblad, a phase and your current system and shoot all of them equally in the style you shoot, because saving money is one thing, having a camera that stops you from working is quite another.
In regards as to where Leaf is they're just silent and silence in today's world is not golden. I wish them the best though.
The thing is changing medium format brand is going to throw you into sticker shock. It's like selling a Condo you bought in 2006 in Miami for a house in the Hollywood hills today.
The House overlooking Sunset is a deal, but the Condo is going to be a damn tough sell.
B
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Thanks for all the responses.
Let's make one thing clear, I'm not switching for quality issues.
Let me explain without saying too much.
When I use a brand I will promote this if I really like it, with Elinchrom and Leaf this has been a wonderful coorperation which grows over the years.
My mamiya has been crashing for 2 months before Mamiya NL FINALLY under my constant pushing send it to Germany for an upgrade which according to them wouldn't solve anything because it was the Leaf back that was bad.
Well when I got it back all the problems dissapeared as snow under the sun, however in total I owned a camera for 3 months that crashed every day or so, and was without a camera for a total of app 2-3 weeks.
Last friday my mirror locked and because I'm extremely busy at the moment outside sessions I wanted the 645AFD/III back asap (dragging the RZ outside can be done but it's a heavy beast), the deal was that I would send it in and get it back within 2 days.
The repair however was too complicated and Mamiya NL wants to send the camera to germany which would mean adding to the week I'm already am without a camera will add another 1-2 weeks to the wait.
I talked very nicely to them and mailed them that I'm expecting after the history I had with this camera that they would loan me a body to finish shooting or exchange it for a new body and I'm willing to pay for the difference. Normally when someone says we don't have a loaner that's ok, I have a backup in the RZ but the way the phone call went today showed me that Mamiya NL is not exactly willing to build up customer loyalty : in short, "we don't loan bodies to photographers, you can rent one, or buy a spare, when my washer brakes down I also don't get a loaner".
I can understand this for a P&S camera, or even a 5DMKII, but a system like this should have the proper support especially when it's taking longer than a week.
I'm always trying to work with and for the companies I'm using gear from and sometimes you expect a little in return.
I did not want to put this out in the open because I hate to do that but I think it explains why Mamiya is no longer an option for me.
The AFi is a GREAT system but I also carry the camera with me on trips and vacations and the Hasselblad is a lot lighter and smaller, that's the only reason the Hasselblad would be my first choice.
I haven't decided anything yet but am talking to several people, it's a hell of a lot money and work to switch for a principle I know but sometimes you have to listen to your heart.......
And sometimes to common sense, if things don't work out I will also contact Mamiya belgium or germany to see what they can do in the future.
But for the moment the Hasselblad and AFi options are still open.
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Now before I'd do any of this, I'd lay out a 1ds3, a d3x, a Hasselblad, a phase and your current system and shoot all of them equally in the style you shoot, because saving money is one thing, having a camera that stops you from working is quite another.
x 2. I suspect you may have fallen under the influence of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome, so the above advice is an excellent way to make sure that for your particular case it really is...
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x 2. I suspect you may have fallen under the influence of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome, so the above advice is an excellent way to make sure that for your particular case it really is...
I suspect you may have fallen under the influence of thinking that a true professional can have one camera body. Just buy another body, and get on with your life. Just because you slap somebody's logo on the corner of your pictures doesn't mean that they owe you a free rental/loaner body. Come on.
I also think you should pay Display Advertising Rates for every time you post something here, because every picture feels like a veiled ad for a workshop or DVD. Seriously.
Trust me, I am the king of switching systems. Don't do it. Just Man-Up and and buy another body and get back to business. You need some Tough Love.
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Thanks for all the responses.
Let's make one thing clear, I'm not switching for quality issues.
Actually you are because your camera keeps breaking. That's a quality issue.
I'm not going to try to sway anyone from one format to another, but I can promise you that I wouldn't go twenty feet outside my door without a two Canons or Nikons, because unless I throw one (uh yea, it's happened), they don't break and breaking is a big damn deal in my world.
No matter what anyone says, medium format is slow and difficult. I don't know why, other than I assume the cameras are based on 12 year old technology and the market is so small that investment is slow and difficult.
I almost fall over when I read stuff like Nikon Sales are down, but they will "only" sell 4.7 million lenses this year. It just goes to show you where the investment money is.
Still, before I took a bath on selling my current cameras and systems, I'd sure as hell invest a thousand and do a test of every camera on the planet, shoot it, process it, retouch it and print it.
Then I'd make my decisions.
But then again if the Mamiya has worked for you, why not just buy a few dozen used ones as backup because they're really not that expensive.
B
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@Gwhtif,
Sorry but what did I do to you ?
There is no logo on my photos for several months and even if there was what's the problem with that ?
I don't expect anything from my dealer but I do expect that when I NEED a camera for something that is also benifitial for them that they help out.
Also with a dealer that supports me this way (having a crashing camera for a few months and denying there is any problem) I'm afraid for the future and to be honest the stuff is WAY too expensive for that and I'm not afraid of paying something (I brought a considerable ammount of money to several dealers over the past year) but I do want a dealer to take his/her customers seriously.
I don't think that's wrong for the price you're paying......
@BCooter,
You are 100% right and I own several bodies but not two AFD/III's (actually a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII).
I respect people and I expect the same from a dealer that's all and when I'm being treated like that I have to be happy that they will take the time to speak to me than I think we are on the wrong foot.
Medium format is a format I'm not willing to give up for a Canon or Nikon I know both systems and own a Canon setup.
But I do have to feel that my dealer can help me out when I have a problem and not deny everything untill there is no denying possible anymore and than under protest take action.
Maybe I should say F you and buy two second hand bodies to throw away when they break down, but maybe it's a defect in my genes but it doesn't work that way for me
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what makes you think a hassy's not going to break down also?
good advice is to just get another body. AFdII going for less than 2k on ebay.get 2.
@Gwhtif,
Sorry but what did I do to you ?
There is no logo on my photos for several months and even if there was what's the problem with that ?
I don't expect anything from my dealer but I do expect that when I NEED a camera for something that is also benifitial for them that they help out.
Also with a dealer that supports me this way (having a crashing camera for a few months and denying there is any problem) I'm afraid for the future and to be honest the stuff is WAY too expensive for that and I'm not afraid of paying something (I brought a considerable ammount of money to several dealers over the past year) but I do want a dealer to take his/her customers seriously.
I don't think that's wrong for the price you're paying......
@BCooter,
You are 100% right and I own several bodies but not two AFD/III's (actually a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII).
I respect people and I expect the same from a dealer that's all and when I'm being treated like that I have to be happy that they will take the time to speak to me than I think we are on the wrong foot.
Medium format is a format I'm not willing to give up for a Canon or Nikon I know both systems and own a Canon setup.
But I do have to feel that my dealer can help me out when I have a problem and not deny everything untill there is no denying possible anymore and than under protest take action.
Maybe I should say F you and buy two second hand bodies to throw away when they break down, but maybe it's a defect in my genes but it doesn't work that way for me
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@Gwhtif,
Sorry but what did I do to you ?
There is no logo on my photos for several months and even if there was what's the problem with that ?
Frank, I don't care if you put 45 point type across your photos and place ineteractive buttons to every camera and light maker you want to associate with.
This forum is full of sales messages from dealers, reps, and seminar givers.
Now if I was Michael I'd take strong exception to it, because he has built a strong business and it seems a lot of people use his forum to drive business to their forum or blog.
My feeling is Michael does so well with his business model, he doesn't think twice about any of the attempted competition.
Regardless, the thing I find most interesting about these forums is the photographers who have the "strongest" brand loyalty are not shooting with the latest and greatest, but are using 2 and third generation equipment.
You see it all the time, someone says, yea, the new rasta 6000 has a great lcd though the person writing it has never held one, much less reached into their pocket and spent the money.
B
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So the plot thickens. You posted the additional explanation as I was responding to the first post...
A good dealer would send you a loaner -- I know mine will (and has) for me. However, a smart photographer, especially when deadlines and projects are in the balance, will have at least one back-up body. Which in my case I have purchased as well, though it is just a lowly AFD-1 body. But then it works fine with my back, albeit a little slower and without some of the features of the AFD2 or 3 body, but then it was also cheaper than even a single lens. Small price to pay for the piece of mind of project insurance...
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I'm no dealer and not being paid so all I do is because I like a product.
Maybe that's what also drives the emotion.
I never intent to post commercial as ghtwif implies I just explained the situation.
Or in other words I just wanted to hear about other options and opinions when all backfires a backup body will be the best option indeed and the most sensible maybe.
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The dealer could be more helpful - particularly if you are a loyal customer of this dealer and if the you purchased the camera through them and have had multiple issues with it. They should impart some customer care. At the very least they should learn how to speak to a photographer - if someone told one of my customers that you don't get a loaner when your washing machine breaks, I'd wring their neck.
A backup camera is probably not a bad idea, especially given that they can be obtained relatively cheaply.
Unless you purchase a hot swap warranty from any manufacturer, this episode could be repeated no matter what camera you owned. I don't know what the case is in your vicinity, but in the USA there is an option for a Hot Swap warranty on Phase One camera bodies. If that is not in place, and you don't own a backup, then you are at the mercy of the level of customer service from that particular dealer you purchased through.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Rash decisions (and often not the best) are made in the heat of the moment. Take a few days off to cool your heels.
Two things would come to my mind if I were in your situation:
1. Buy a back-up body
2. Get a new dealer
Sh*t happens (and to all brands/platforms) Probably not something worth changing your entire workflow over....
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I'm no dealer and not being paid so all I do is because I like a product.
Maybe that's what also drives the emotion.
I never intent to post commercial as ghtwif implies I just explained the situation.
Or in other words I just wanted to hear about other options and opinions when all backfires a backup body will be the best option indeed and the most sensible maybe.
Frank,
Just to clarify, I was not implying anything about your business, nor do I care how or where you market yourself. My comment was based on you giving us the added info. I was offering an alternative point of view -- which I could have said more directly -- get a back-up body (it's cheap) and find a better dealer.
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Frank I would just get a AFDII for backup , still relatively cheap but not wanting to jump to far off topic but concern on the AFDIII. I did have a failure myself and it was a power board that went down, I did have a AFD to back me up but I did buy my Phase system through CI and i had a backup AFDIII loaner shipped overnight to me. Now I am not sure about the Mamiya side of things with going that route only with a Leaf back . Obviously these two folks are separate companies sharing the same body so I don't know if your dealer has a loaner system in place and such. I do know here in the states most Phase dealers do have a loaner system in place.
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Hi,
I do have several backup bodies that's not the problem, but no AFD.
I own a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII so I can always work that's not the problem, the problem I'm having is not that I cannot work, the problem is that I wanted the 645AFD/III on the video for them and that I'm being treated like I'm a customer they would rather loose than have, and indeed seeing the history with that camera and knowing it's my second camera I bought from them and SEVERAL other not cheap stuff like meters, accessories, lenses etc. makes it a principle for me.
And indeed principles are sometimes very bad advisors, but for me very important (and that's my problem ).
Also the fact that indeed I promote the heck out of mamiya on workshops/seminars/DVDs etc. could have given them at least the courtecy to treat me with respect, in the end that's all it boils down to, they just don't care, I told him that I lost the trust in this camera because it's now the second time it broke down and I really wanted them to swap the camera (I was willing to pay extra for their new body that was just released) after that the conversation went wrong with the dealer getting angry (I guess frustations with other customers, because he talked in the THEY form, THEY ALL want loaners and I don't do that).
@Doug,
I wish it was a dealer, but that's the problem I'm not dealing with a dealer but with the Dutch importer.....
When it was a dealer I would contact the importer and tell him to straighten out his dealer.
I'm my own boss for as long as I can remember and am brought up in a family of business owners, customer satisfaction is key for a succesful business, pissing your customers off is a bad idea.
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The Loaner Program is great Public Relations for these Dealers. No doubt. It looks and sounds great on paper.
But what happens when you show up for a job, and there are eight shots to do during that day, and the body peters out on the second setup? So there you are, it's 10:30am, and your ONLY body is dead in the water. What good does a Loaner Program do for you then? Compare the cost of two backup bodies to the cost of paying all that talent and crew, for the remainder of that shoot day, not to mention the embarrassment in front of the client.
It is a No Brainer. A pro covers his ass -- end of story. Fedex doesn't arrive until 10:30 tomorrow morning with that loaner body -- what are you gonna do with that client until tomorrow morning? Tell jokes, or dance a jig, and entertain them?
I'd chalk it up as a lesson learned. Mancuso reported the same story, and he learned from it. It's not a matter of IF the gear will fail -- it's a matter of when. How much could a used Mamiya body cost? Hell, for that matter, a brand new one? If not, I hope you're a good dancer.
What if the shoe was on the other foot? What if it was a client calling you, and they said, "Hey Doorfhof, we spend a lot of money with you, we forgot about that third and fourth day of shooting that we needed. We only told you about two days. So, since we spend a lot of money with you, and put your Photo Credit in the corner of the ads, can you shoot that third and fourth day for free?" What if you told them no -- is that "bad customer service?". Hell no, it's simply doing business as business should be done.
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the problem is that I wanted the 645AFD/III on the video for them
Maybe, just maybe, they didn't care about the AFD3 body being in your video for some reason you don't know about... Like maybe there is a newer body to be released in the very near future?
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What if the shoe was on the other foot?
I don't get the free thing. If I was the distributor and you were calling about a body you'd shot a billion frames through, I'd say, buy another one.
I understand customer service, we all bust our b**ls nowdays, but free, even at loaner rates, naw.
Now this value added dealer loaner thing, is not Free. It is an extended warranty that costs a lot and honestly has no effect on somebody that is shooting for commerce, unless you happen to be shooting next door to the dealers office.
Also this line about if it was a phase back on a mamiya body life would be better is just bull. Phase/Mamiya screams to high heaven about their "open" platform, so that makes no difference whatsoever, especially since it was the Mamiya that broke, not the Aptus.
If I was as in love with medium format as you are Frank I'd have two of everything, (I do have two of everything) I mean buying a new aptus 22 is like buying a Nikon D3. They're falling out of the trees right now.
Still, this is the mess of medium format. If I can't walk into any city with a population of over 1,000,000 people and buy exactly what I'm using, I don't want to know about it.
B
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You could try to get your Mamiya support elsewhere outside the Netherlands but I can see your point. When you are a loyal customer and get treated like shit I would not want to have to deal with that party as well. My own clients wouldn't accept a treatment like that from me either.
Having said that. It is a good policy to have 2 of the same bodies of stuff you are depending on. I have basically 2 of everything including overlapping lenses (I am thinking about getting a second 100 because I use it so often). This is while my dealer is very good to me! I can loan stuff if I need or want to but I don't want to be depending on this.
I ended up with Hasselblad because the local Leaf dealer was less than responsive and I did not want to bring my money to a party that show me it is not even involved in the business in which I am committed
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No matter what anyone says, medium format is slow and difficult. I don't know why, other than I assume the cameras are based on 12 year old technology and the market is so small that investment is slow and difficult.
Expand 'Slow and Difficult'.
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@Gwhtif,
You keep going on and on but I think you need to reread my posts....
I DO have a backup, to be complete in need I have three different backup systems including two separate MF solutions.
But that's not the point.
It seems a trend that companies simply don't care for customers any more (or at least over here in the Netherlands it's a trend, not responding to mails, not calling back etc.)
When you do a lot of free stuff for someone like that and you're treated like garbage how would you feel that ?
That's were this whole issue is based upon, not on not being able to continue work, heck I can rent a body if I really need it, when the camera was gone for the firmware upgrade I could also continue to work, because I'm doing a lot of outside stuff at the moment I would rather not drag the RZ with me but use the 5DMKII or a 645 body, in the end it all boils down to the end result and to speak in another photographer on this forums words, it doesn't matter which camera you use as long as you get the job done, and unless all bodies fail on me at the same time I can do my job.
However I don't know what makes you tick but for me trust and mutual respect between customer and client is VERY important.
To give a very simple example, my HDV camera broke down during the pro-imaging this year (display went all green). One of the product managers from Canon heard this and offered to give me a HF10 for the time being as a loaner to play arround with, in the end we bought it and had the Sony repaired so now we have two HDVs, this sets Canon apart and if my 5DMKII would break down and they would not have a loaner because it's not done I could perfectly live with that if I would not have a backup and would buy a backup at that moment (luckely also my DSLR route is covered over the years).
So to make a long story short it's about customer care and that's something I value VERY much.
Also remember that if I would just shoot commercial work I wouldn't care less about dealer support or brand loyalty just buy second hand bodies indeed. But because of the line of work I do I feel that the brands I use get a fair share of exposure and when I shoot in front of a crowd or on a video with something I'm frustated with as hell it shows
But were getting way off topic.
At the moment I'm still talking and thinking and the replies from some people helps me a lot.
I'm not eagerly waiting to spend 10K for a principle so I have to find a way to sell my 645set and ease into another system that I will build up over time and that's why I opened this post, not to complain or to do what I'm doing now.....defending myself.
I don't even want to go into the discussion of dropping MF all to getter, when I look at the files I'm getting and the workflow there's nothing that fits me better, end of story.
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Expand 'Slow and Difficult'.
OK Dave I like you and think you company is on the right track, in fact I think you have a great opportunity to go forward and I've mentioned this before.
But slow and difficult compared to the high end dslrs . . . , ok you asked so here goes.
Slower frame rates.
lower usable iso,(much lower).
Single point autofocus.
A prism that bends the image more than the actual image bends.
Slower lenses (except your 100 F 2 point something). Even my contax has a 2.0 80mm.
The lcd needs a computer to read the image. You blad lcd is "better" than most but it ain't up to a $400 P+S.
It took forever for you guys to get your files into Adobe and other third party processors without DNG conversion and another step in the processing chain is slow and difficult.
Shooting to cards requires you ingest using hasselblad software, no drag and drop.
Mirror slap without a delay. I know the Contax is so 1985, but handhold a contax at a/130th, (I've done it a lot) and handhold an H system at 1/30th. Big difference.
FW 800 connectors at fw 400 speed (I think, because nobody has actually answered this).
No right angle grip. Try using your camera for a long 14 hour day all in the vertical position.
No clear direction on what is full frame. is the current size full frame, is the next one larger than full frame, can you use the 28mm on the next newer and bigger camera and get "full frame".
A tilt shift mechanism that takes light and adds 1.5 to the range of the lens. How about just some tilt shift lenses?
Brown cameras. How many people ask you for a black hasselblad with silver trim?
(The last one isn't slow, but it is difficult).
B
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Expand 'Slow and Difficult'.
OK Dave I like you and think you company is on the right track, in fact I think you have a great opportunity to go forward and I've mentioned this before.
But slow and difficult compared to the high end dslrs . . . , ok you asked so here goes.
Slower frame rates.
lower usable iso,(much lower).
Single point autofocus.
A prism that bends the image more than the actual image bends.
Slower lenses (except your 100 F 2 point something). Even my contax has a 2.0 80mm.
The lcd needs a computer to read the image. You blad lcd is "better" than most but it ain't up to a $400 P+S.
It took forever for you guys to get your files into Adobe and other third party processors without DNG conversion and another step in the processing chain is slow and difficult.
Shooting to cards requires you ingest using hasselblad software, no drag and drop.
Mirror slap without a delay. I know the Contax is so 1985, but handhold a contax at a/130th, (I've done it a lot) and handhold an H system at 1/30th. Big difference.
FW 800 connectors at fw 400 speed (I think, because nobody has actually answered this).
No right angle grip. Try using your camera for a long 14 hour day all in the vertical position.
No clear direction on what is full frame. is the current size full frame, is the next one larger than full frame, can you use the 28mm on the next newer and bigger camera and get "full frame".
A tilt shift mechanism that takes light and adds 1.5 to the range of the lens. How about just some tilt shift lenses?
Brown cameras. How many people ask you for a black hasselblad with silver trim?
(The last one isn't slow, but it is difficult).
Now you've come a long, long, long way since the imacon days, but there are still some basics in medium format that just don't make sense.
B
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Hi,
I do have several backup bodies that's not the problem, but no AFD.
I own a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII so I can always work that's not the problem, the problem I'm having is not that I cannot work, the problem is that I wanted the 645AFD/III on the video for them and that I'm being treated like I'm a customer they would rather loose than have, and indeed seeing the history with that camera and knowing it's my second camera I bought from them and SEVERAL other not cheap stuff like meters, accessories, lenses etc. makes it a principle for me.
And indeed principles are sometimes very bad advisors, but for me very important (and that's my problem ).
Also the fact that indeed I promote the heck out of mamiya on workshops/seminars/DVDs etc. could have given them at least the courtecy to treat me with respect, in the end that's all it boils down to, they just don't care, I told him that I lost the trust in this camera because it's now the second time it broke down and I really wanted them to swap the camera (I was willing to pay extra for their new body that was just released) after that the conversation went wrong with the dealer getting angry (I guess frustations with other customers, because he talked in the THEY form, THEY ALL want loaners and I don't do that).
@Doug,
I wish it was a dealer, but that's the problem I'm not dealing with a dealer but with the Dutch importer.....
When it was a dealer I would contact the importer and tell him to straighten out his dealer.
I'm my own boss for as long as I can remember and am brought up in a family of business owners, customer satisfaction is key for a succesful business, pissing your customers off is a bad idea.
The issue is more likely that the Dutch importer could care less and understand your frustration. For us in the US it's the same as buying from B&H or a retailer in that category. Something breaks they will not show any love at all. I have been buying from them for well over 30 years and i would be shit out of luck with trying to get a body replaced after two breakdowns , it would have to come from the OEM itself at that point. Regardless of what some may think a dealer network would try to either do a replacement themselves or go in on your benefit to the OEM and push a few buttons to get a replacement. Sure it is no help the day of shooting when something happens but it is having a loaner when yours is out for repair time and having that the next day is nothing to sneeze at when there is another job to do. I like the dealer network and it has paid for itself more than I can express here in many ways. I need something , I get it and I have received lenses faster than any B&H retailer type could get on release as well when buying. Also nothing like calling Doug to save my ass out in the field to trouble shoot a breakdown or a issue. Some don't care about it and some folks do. I like having a hand to grab when I need it. I still buy from B&H on many other items that maybe not as important or critical.
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panies simply don't care for customers any more (or at least over here in the Netherlands it's a trend, not responding to mails, not calling back etc.)
I totally agree on this part. My dealer is not located in the Netherlands specifically because of these reasons. With the exception of a few persons most in this industry aren't interested in responding to mails or calling back even before they have your money!
I buy most of my things in Germany, the UK, Belgium or even the US (I rather ship & import).
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OK Dave I like you and think you company is on the right track, in fact I think you have a great opportunity to go forward and I've mentioned this before.
But slow and difficult compared to the high end dslrs . . . , ok you asked so here goes.
Slower frame rates.
lower usable iso,(much lower).
Single point autofocus.
A prism that bends the image more than the actual image bends.
Slower lenses (except your 100 F 2 point something). Even my contax has a 2.0 80mm.
The lcd needs a computer to read the image. You blad lcd is "better" than most but it ain't up to a $400 P+S.
It took forever for you guys to get your files into Adobe and other third party processors without DNG conversion and another step in the processing chain is slow and difficult.
Shooting to cards requires you ingest using hasselblad software, no drag and drop.
Mirror slap without a delay. I know the Contax is so 1985, but handhold a contax at a/130th, (I've done it a lot) and handhold an H system at 1/30th. Big difference.
FW 800 connectors at fw 400 speed (I think, because nobody has actually answered this).
No right angle grip. Try using your camera for a long 14 hour day all in the vertical position.
No clear direction on what is full frame. is the current size full frame, is the next one larger than full frame, can you use the 28mm on the next newer and bigger camera and get "full frame".
A tilt shift mechanism that takes light and adds 1.5 to the range of the lens. How about just some tilt shift lenses?
Brown cameras. How many people ask you for a black hasselblad with silver trim?
(The last one isn't slow, but it is difficult).
Now you've come a long, long, long way since the imacon days, but there are still some basics in medium format that just don't make sense.
B
Compliment taken, thankyou.
Slower frame rates agreed. But do all photographers want 5fps? For fashion, for sure, but what about many of the other disciplines that do not require. The H3D for example is not all cameras to all men and the same can be said for a 5D, 1D, D3 and so on.
Lower ISO yes. Swings and roundabouts again.
Single Point AF. Ouch! You had to mention that one didn't you? Sadly there is no way around this problem currently. Making our AF accurate and that doesn't shift with apertures or lenses is a reality. Why does a Canon or Nikon have an AF fine tune option?
Faster lenses, mean bigger money and bigger weight (bigger shutters too, and I will skillfully avoid the slap question, but 99% of users feel this is a non issue with the steps we have taken). There must be a compromise between these factors.
Prism? Take a look through an H3D. Go on.
LCD. Ouch again! This is an issue that can be solved.
It didn't take us forever, it took a combination of us and Adobe forever. This is now solved.
Files shot to cards can now be (with Phocus 1.2) exported directly without the need for ingesting if you want a fast way to produce, TIFF, DNG, Previews, PSD, PSD-16, TIFF-16 etc etc. Ingestation (is that a word?) is now a background task. Incidentally during the import you can add IPTC data (full support), settings and so forth. Its not as bad as you think. Or use Aperture, Lightroom/ACR - drag and drop.
Its pretty clear from all manufacturers what size their sensors are, especially as we all shop at Kodak-mart and Dalsa-mart. To produce a 28mm and a 35mm which works for the 31,39,50 and with very little limitation the 60, requires the images circle be a tad smaller. Cost, weight, size are reduced and thus more appealing. The perfect lens exists but only at the perfect price. As for 'can you use the 28 and 35-90 on a 60MP' I have answered that many a time, so listen up!
We should also remember that not everybody wants 60MP and the 28 and 35-90 serve a lot of customers very well.
FW800 runs at FW800 speed now.
1 x Tilt Shift Lens, or lets say there was the possibility to make 2 x Tilt Shift Lenses. What length would you like, What length would an Architecture photographer like, what length would a product photographer like? Or we could make an adapter that serves five lenses and multiple customers. 'It would never sell' they said, but the order books show otherwise, dramatically. Plus by measuring tilt /shift /rotation values the relative distortion, CA and vignetting introduced are removed anyway. Can you show me a Canon TS or Nikon TS that can do the same?
Returning to my first comment we cannot please all of the people all of the time, but month by month it improves. That does not mean however, a high end DSLR does not have its place in the photographers bag. I think it is also fair to say that medium format makes sense to a lot of others, otherwise we would not be here.
As for black cameras, of course it is possible but we refrain simply to annoy people.
Best,
David
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when my washer brakes down I also don't get a loaner".
I would ask him why he is comparing a medium format camera to a washing machine. Is that what he thinks of it?
I am with everyone else (although I am no pro...): get a backup body, AFDI or AFDII, and look for a better dealer/distributor. Business first, emotions second.
I disagree that an RZ67 and 5D2 are proper backup though. You can't work the same way with a double-barreled cannon or a water pistol as with a Colt 45.
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Horses for courses......
And almost all MF shooters I know also own a DSLR.....
Best of both worlds.
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Horses for courses......
And almost all MF shooters I know also own a DSLR.....
Best of both worlds.
Hi Frank,
Yeh, you're right, in the good ol' days most pro's had a plethora of equipment in differing formats etc, and chose one for the specific job they were doing, however that was in the days when the people who were commissioning the photography knew how to brief photographers properly and knew at the time of the commission what the usage was gonna be. (sorry I've drifted off topic a little)
As regards your expectations from your dealer are concerned, I don't think they are un-reasonable, look at what you've bought, somewhere in the region of 40,000 euros I guess, the equivalent of a executive premium-brand family car, if the car goes wrong do you get a loaner. . yes of course you do!
To me it's all about building relationships with your dealer, bouncing ideas off each other, and using the dealer sometimes to fight your battles! Remember hopefully they carry more clout with the distributors, after all they should be buying many multiples of what an individual photographer would buy and distributor channels are normally set up for dealers to report faults quickly and efficiently. A good dealer should also be pragmatic with you and tell you whether your expectations are reasonable, or not, as the case may be. If you find one, cherish them.
Love your Dealer!
. . . and buy a spare AFD!
kindest
Andy
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I think you mean do think they are unreasonable
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Hi Frank,
Yeh, you're right, in the good ol' days most pro's had a plethora of equipment in differing formats etc,
And you're right too Andy. But in the good ol' days I remember, every pro had at least two bodies that worked with each system they used, if not three or four... And NONE of the ones I knew relied on their Nikon SLR outfit to back up their Hassy V kit except in case the second (or third or fourth) Hassy body failed... In fact, most of the ones I knew even had dupes of their most used *lenses* in their cases too...
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[quote name='Frank Doorhof' date='Jun 10 2009, 05:17 PM' post='290290']
I think you mean do think they are unreasonable
No Frank I did mean that I did not think you were being unreasonable. I was agreeing with you!
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We mean the same thing
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Did they pay you or have some agreement with you to promote their stuff?
Strictly business, if it isn't on black and white or even a verbal agreement they have no obligation towards you.
I must have been in new york too long....
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Did they pay you or have some agreement with you to promote their stuff?
Strictly business, if it isn't on black and white or even a verbal agreement they have no obligation towards you.
I must have been in new york too long....
no, this is the point and i can understand mamiya. always thought leaf must be rather desperate to have a photographer of mr.doorhofs level do their promotion.
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@gps,
Pfff what's the need for this ?
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Just got of the phone with Mamiya repair, they got a mail from Mamiya NL that the camera must be send to Germany and without warranty and back to me with the bill under paid postage.
They did not understand this because the camera still has 2 months of warranty so they called me.
I will call Mamiya Germany tomorrow myself to end this, it's getting ridicilous, you can't end a warranty just because you're pissed at a customer.....
I did not post anything of this on my blog, only on LL so there is from his side no reason to be pissed.
It's a shame that it all goes down like this but to be honest a bit expected.
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Mamiya NL cancelled your warranty because you are having a dispute with them?? Do I understand this correctly?
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It appears so.
In fact I was lucky repair nl called me about it otherwise I would have gotten the camera back and had to pay to the postman.
Because they thought this was weird they wanted to check.
He has no reason to be mad I did mail him rather nicely to explain my case and tried to friendly push him to call me but as it seems when things don't go his way he acts up. But cancelling warranty ?
I will mail Mamiya Germany tonight and call them tommorow maybe they can do something to solve this.
Mamiya NL cancelled your warranty because you are having a dispute with them?? Do I understand this correctly?
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The fact that Frank promotes the equipment he uses is not relevant in this case. He now gets some flak for that which I find uncalled for but also besides the point.
Fact is, he uses Mamiya equipment which apparently is still under warranty. A body broke down, he asked politely to be helped with a loaner body while his is being repaired. This is denied in a pretty rude way, he objects and gets rewarded with cancellation of his warranty out of anger of a person at Mamiya NL.
I have better service for my Nikons with NPS! I have spend a fraction of the costs for my Nikon equipment but nobody at NPS is giving me a hard time when I need a loaner when something is in repair. On the contrary, they go out of their way to try to help me out. I am pretty sure the people using CPS are treated the same way.
My Hasselblad dealer (in Belgium) has been more than helpful when I needed it.
Now, for everything I use I have 2 so I don't need help a lot but if I do it means it is serious and in that case I would appreciate being taken serious as a customer. This point is where I can totally relate to Franks frustration.
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My wife talked with one of the employees of Mamiya NL this morning to mail them our invoice and he offered me to loan his 645 for the time I need it privatly.
Because most I do the coming week can be shot with the RZ's there's no need at the moment but it's very nice from him to offer this and I wanted to also update that here.
To make something clear the thread was never meant to be a flame of Mamiya NL but more a question thread about what to buy if I would switch but it has grown into something else, there is nothing here that I don't stand behind, but it was never my intention when I started this thread to post it.
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Dealer is something to rely on for some help, but not put your business in harms way by not having a back up. get a backup body asap.
It doesnt have to be the exact same, but one that will do the job as a backup.
I have had the pain you are having and since then, I have 2 bodies, and 2 of the lens that are my main use lens.
It would be nice for me to have a backup to the digiback, but I don't, as I would not buy one thinking this has a chance it will fail during a shoot. Its the equal to all a sudden Velvia film failing as a type of film. Thats why I think Phase makes them very robust to stand the test of time.
After you spend $10-20K for a digiback, you expect it to work without a issue until its course in technology runs out, (or get a better one). And for the first year or 2 you want to back that claim with a warranty.
In these economic times it is hard to say in 2 to 5 years you will be able to replace that back with one that is better and much more expensive. (i could be wrong as I have read someplace that P65+ backs are out of stock/back order). :-)
Bottom line, you had a bad experince you shouldnt have had, and it can happen with any dealer. Not an excuse, but switching a system might not be the end all answer. Mamiya support should apologize and take measure to provide outstanding support in these hard times for the MF market....Although it might be one of the last left with any wall to lean on.