Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: avelpavel on April 24, 2009, 06:51:28 am
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Hi,
I'm using a Sinar Emotion 54LV and I have found a major issue with it.
Everything works when using it tethered, the problem comes out when I use it with CF cards: The first shots on the card are overimposed on older shots, even if you format the card many times. It happens in a random manner, so sometimes the first 3-5 shots are overimposed, sometimes the shots appear corrupted in the middle of the shooting.
The sad thing is that I can see the correct shot on the LCD, even on Exposure and on Brumbaer tools. As soon as I develop the file into dng the file change and becomes corrupt as shown in the attached image.
This problem comes out whatever CF card you use (I have tried 3 new and never used Sandisk Extreme III 8 Gb), whatever camera you use (Hasselblad 503cxi, contax 645, Silvestri Bicam).
I have pointed it out to Mafer in Italy (Sinar Italian distributor) and they talked directly to Sinar receiving the answer "We know there is a problem, we're working on it...).
Anyone has had the same problem? Any advice?
These are my 54LV data:
serial e54-07-0180
firmware 5.09-22 (it happened with 5.08 too...)
Thanks a lot, regards
Roberto
[attachment=13216:1000.jpg]
_________________________
www.robertopastrovicchio.com
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I think Graham might be in a better position to answer this because he has a 54LV, but for the record I have not seen that issue with my 75LV.
Does it happen when you shoot to the internal memory of the back? Have you tried compressed, or not compressed?
At least Sinar have acknowledged the issue so it will eventually be fixed.
Ben
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Everything works when using it tethered, the problem comes out when I use it with CF cards: The first shots on the card are overimposed on older shots, even if you format the card many times. It happens in a random manner, so sometimes the first 3-5 shots are overimposed, sometimes the shots appear corrupted in the middle of the shooting.
I have never had this problem. Are you formatting the cards in the back or using your computer?
The sad thing is that I can see the correct shot on the LCD, even on Exposure and on Brumbaer tools. As soon as I develop the file into dng the file change and becomes corrupt as shown in the attached image.
I guess the preview part of the file is ok and the raw data is corrupted?
This problem comes out whatever CF card you use (I have tried 3 new and never used Sandisk Extreme III 8 Gb), whatever camera you use (Hasselblad 503cxi, contax 645, Silvestri Bicam).
That does sound like a problem with the back then. Whether it is hardware or software, I can't tell yet.
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I have never had this problem also ...
Question : if you shot to the internal memory and copy/move later the pictures to the cf card, what happens ?
... if you connect the back via FW and look into the internal memory, is there also defect pictures ?
Greetings
Adina
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I have never had this problem also ...
Question : if you shot to the internal memory and copy/move later the pictures to the cf card, what happens ?
... if you connect the back via FW and look into the internal memory, is there also defect pictures ?
Greetings
Adina
I would agree with Adina.
However "copy" the images to the CF card..........so that you have 2 copies of the images.
Electronics can sometimes be squirrelly, I had a similar issue that happened unpredictably and intermittently
The other suggestion is to format the card on your computer set to >MSDOS FAT>under the erase options
select erasing all the data.........so that the card has no information on it.
Reformat the card on your Sinar back. If this workaround is successful you will be able to shoot until your back is replaced or
repaired.
Hope your back is under warranty.........My experience with Sinar warranty and product support from their reps
(Jack Strobel/Calumet,Colin King and Dave McRitchie/SinarBron) has been absolutely excellent.
best
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Thanks for the replies.
It happens only on the CF card. When I save on both CF and internal all the images on the internal are correct, the CF images has the problem. I'm using uncompressed raw files.
I have never formatted the cards with the computer, only with the back.
I will try to move images from the internal to the CF as Adina suggest, let's see what happen.
I have never tried to format the card as DOS FAT, so I will try this too.
I'll let you know, thanks a lot!
ps The Italian Sinar reps at Mafer makes me laugh, he asked to me what is Brumbaers tools... but I think it is only a commercial who then contact Sinar techs, I hope... The back however is under warranty fortunately.
bye
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Hi,
I'm using a Sinar Emotion 54LV and I have found a major issue with it.
Everything works when using it tethered, the problem comes out when I use it with CF cards: The first shots on the card are overimposed on older shots, even if you format the card many times. It happens in a random manner, so sometimes the first 3-5 shots are overimposed, sometimes the shots appear corrupted in the middle of the shooting.
The sad thing is that I can see the correct shot on the LCD, even on Exposure and on Brumbaer tools. As soon as I develop the file into dng the file change and becomes corrupt as shown in the attached image.
This problem comes out whatever CF card you use (I have tried 3 new and never used Sandisk Extreme III 8 Gb), whatever camera you use (Hasselblad 503cxi, contax 645, Silvestri Bicam).
I have pointed it out to Mafer in Italy (Sinar Italian distributor) and they talked directly to Sinar receiving the answer "We know there is a problem, we're working on it...).
Anyone has had the same problem? Any advice?
These are my 54LV data:
serial e54-07-0180
firmware 5.09-22 (it happened with 5.08 too...)
Thanks a lot, regards
Roberto
[attachment=13216:1000.jpg]
_________________________
www.robertopastrovicchio.com
I used Sinar Hy6 & 54LV It never happend to me
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I used Sinar Hy6 & 54LV It never happend to me
I've used the e22, the 54LV and now the 75LV - they have all been good performers.
Hopefully Sinar will be able to sort this out quickly. When they do please tell us what caused the problem.
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Dear Roberto,
You know my position, and that I can't help much anymore, but I would insist to get a more precise answer and fix of this issue. It could be that some electronics are affected and this should be addressed and serviced by warranty.
All the best,
Thierry
"We know there is a problem, we're working on it..."
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Thanks for the replies.
It happens only on the CF card. When I save on both CF and internal all the images on the internal are correct, the CF images has the problem. I'm using uncompressed raw files.
I have never formatted the cards with the computer, only with the back.
I will try to move images from the internal to the CF as Adina suggest, let's see what happen.
I have never tried to format the card as DOS FAT, so I will try this too.
I'll let you know, thanks a lot!
ps The Italian Sinar reps at Mafer makes me laugh, he asked to me what is Brumbaers tools... but I think it is only a commercial who then contact Sinar techs, I hope... The back however is under warranty fortunately.
bye
Hi Roberto,
if the images are only defect on the CF card, than there is a fault on the CF card itself. If formatting is not helping, try to use an other card, if you have the same problem with other cards too, than format the internal storage of the eMotion.
I hope that will help.
best regards
Michael
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Hi Roberto,
if the images are only defect on the CF card, than there is a fault on the CF card itself. If formatting is not helping, try to use an other card, if you have the same problem with other cards too, than format the internal storage of the eMotion.
I hope that will help.
best regards
Michael
hi michael,
nice to hear from you, i hope you are fine and have interesting things to do .....
how to format the internal storage? i experienced the same problem with one of my e75 backs.
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hi michael,
nice to hear from you, i hope you are fine and have interesting things to do .....
how to format the internal storage? i experienced the same problem with one of my e75 backs.
Dear Rainer,
I cannont remember, but If you would like to know it I'm sure the Sinar support will help you.
best regards
Michael
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Roberto,
What Goodi says may help, BUT BE AWARE: by formating the internal storage the stored "Reference Files" of this back are deleted and not longer available. These files are automatically copied to your "Library" ("Application Support" --> "Exposure" folder) when you connect the back the first time to a computer. In the case you change your computer, you will then have to use these references files from the CD you have got with the eMotion back, since not longer stored in the back itself.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Roberto,
What Goodi says may help, BUT BE AWARE: by formating the internal storage the stored "Reference Files" of this back are deleted and not longer available. These files are automatically copied to your "Library" ("Application Support" --> "Exposure" folder) when you connect the back the first time to a computer. In the case you change your computer, you will then have to use these references files from the CD you have got with the eMotion back, since not longer stored in the back itself.
Best regards,
Thierry
no probs with the ref files, but i still cant see any format function in the back menues. ...
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Me either. This is from the manual:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/20zuxpg.jpg)
But when I look in 'Special Actions' I only have the option of formatting the CF card. And even if I could do it, how would I get the ref files back into the internal memory of the back? Does it happen automatically when the back is connected and eXposure is launched?
Ben
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With the first "Firmwares" of the eMotion backs, that was possible from the back menu, to format the internal storage. From a certain firmware level, this internal storage formating ("Format All") was only possible from the Captureshop menu.
However, eXposure does not have this function (or at least in the last version I have worked with).
I strongly recommend to get in touch with Sinar's tech.
Best regards,
Thierry
Me either. This is from the manual:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/20zuxpg.jpg)
But when I look in 'Special Actions' I only have the option of formatting the CF card. And even if I could do it, how would I get the ref files back into the internal memory of the back? Does it happen automatically when the back is connected and eXposure is launched?
Ben
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Hi, here I'm with some news about the 54LV.
I have tried to copy the images from the internal memory to the CF card and everything works with 3 different cards, so no problem.
Then I followed Prakash advice to format the card in the computer (with the full erase option), then in the back. After multiple tests with all the cards everything now works and I have had no overimposed images.
Now I would like to know why the back alone can't format properly the card, as these issues happened again and again with new cards out of the box...
I hope Sinar tech will get in touch with me soon, I have sent my help request together with corrupted files to the Sinar Italian distributor on April 10th, no answer until now. I will try now directly to Sinar techs.
As usual YOU Forum members are the most useful source of information and help! SO THANKS A LOT!
As soon as I receive some help from Sinar techs I'll let you know, tomorrow I will have a new test session.
Kind regards
Roberto
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A simple update of the issue:
Sinar Techs said the problem can be using the 54LV with Sandisk EXTREME III cards. Maybe the EXTREME IV cards will work, so I will give a try.
Plaese let me know which kind of CF cards you use (ULTRA II, EXTREME III or IV, LEXAR) without troubles, I think could be useful to everyone.
Regards
roberto
_________________________
www.robertopastrovicchio.com
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I was using a Sandisk Ultra II and now an Adata Turbo (350x). I've never seen the problem. I suspect it was related to formatting.
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I use a Sandisk Ducati 8GB card.
Ben
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A simple update of the issue:
Sinar Techs said the problem can be using the 54LV with Sandisk EXTREME III cards. Maybe the EXTREME IV cards will work, so I will give a try.
Plaese let me know which kind of CF cards you use (ULTRA II, EXTREME III or IV, LEXAR) without troubles, I think could be useful to everyone.
Regards
roberto
_________________________
www.robertopastrovicchio.com
I have both 16gb and 8gb Sandisk Extreme III cards and have used them with no issues on an eMotion 75 (50 asa).
Once I upgraded to an eMotion e75lv (100 asa with the larger LCD), I have experienced intermittent issues when transferring files
(moving instead of copying) from the internal drive to the CF card.
I am not a technical guy, but simple Sherlock Holmes logic tells me that if my 7-16 gb & 2-8bg cards worked flawlessly with a 50 asa e75
but develop intermittent issues with the 100asa e75lv.....its not the CF cards but the new firmware that is not functioning properly.
I am extremely happy with both the performance of my back as well as the dealer support from both Jack Strobel/ Calumet and Colin King/ SinarBron.
This is the only back on the market that is truly a high performance product and as a result there are redundant components that allow a workaround to
this intermittent issue. While it is a PITA and extremely inefficient to shoot to the onboard internal storage and copy the files ( instead of moving from the internal storage)
to a CF card or transfer directly from the internal storage to a laptop. This solution does not work on high production shoots where you are producing 15-20+
shots in a day.
I am happy to have invested in a high performance Porche level product, the MiniVan response of using older CF cards with slow transfer rates is not just unacceptable,
it is incomprehensible.
There are are bumps in the road and this is one of them that I am sure it will be be addressed as a firmware issue by Sinar.
There are many goofy missteps and marketing dramas that are executed by other MDFB manufacturers.
The one concept that puts the Sinar backs in a different league (other than file quality and technical issues) is having proprietary and universal
solutions both in hardware (interface plates for multiple camera systems) and software (producing DNG's for any raw processor).
This e65 back that shoots a DNG is absolutely brilliant.....I hope they introduce a non microlens full frame sensor with a larger capacity internal storage for architectural/landscape shooters
I am straying off topic......
prakash
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use sundisk EXTREME IV 4GB without problems ...
Greetings
Adina
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Emotion update...
I have tried new cards, Sandisk Ultra II 8 Gb and Extreme IV 8 Gb
110 shots, 41 images corrupted (internal are ok, so the problem is not of CF cards, having tested 8 of them, all brand new and 3 different models)
At Sinar techs told me via mail they have problems to reproduce the problem, maybe my back is the one to look for?
Greetings to all
Roberto
_________________________
www.robertopastrovicchio.com
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Time to send it in I think. Can your dealer give you a loaner for a while?
Ben
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For what it's worth.
I experienced/reported this from July 2008 - October 2008.
It happened to me on two different backs, both e75, and with both Sandisc 3 and 4 cards. (both 8 Gig Versions)
IMHO opinion it is the back causing this problem, I would start looking into the formatting part of the software, I find it likely that there is the bug to be found.
Hope they find a solution for you guys!
Best wishes
Georg
P.S. On a funny side note, when I sent back the first defect DB to Switzerland, Lorenz Koch made a remark that he is going to nail it on the wall. That was because I lost a lot of valuable work. So, for his convinience I packed a 16" long massive nail into the package when I sent it back. <grins> ....Never got a pic though from the back on the walll....
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I have now also seen this problem, with an 8GB Ultra II card. It worked fine for some time, but I think the problem started as soon as I formatted the card with the back, after moving the images to the computer. The next time I used it I had the problem.
Is anyone aware of any way to recover the shots? It is not a serious situation, since almost all the shots are just tourist-type shots (I am on vacation), and can be repeated in the future (my sister's family has a house nearby), but it would be great to be able to get them back.
The back is an eMotion 54 LV by the way. It happened with firmware version 5.09, i.e. the latest at this time (2009-07-01).
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Hi Carsten,
my 54LV is at Sinar right now to find out what's the problem with it. I will post some news as I get it.
The double images happened with every card I tried (Sandisk Ultra II, Extreme III or IV) and sometimes the shots on the CF card where really different from the same images saved in the internal memory. They had low contrast, low saturation, like washed out compared to the internal ones. Have a look, maybe it happens to your back too?
I have not find out a way of recovering the lost images.
At the moment I have a loaner back E75LV and I have no issues with it.
The only thing I have found with both backs and to take into account is that if you finish the memory space in the internal memory the back can't write further images in the CF card, it seems it has first to save the image inside and then copy it to the CF when you have the CF+Internal option on.
Roberto
I have now also seen this problem, with an 8GB Ultra II card. It worked fine for some time, but I think the problem started as soon as I formatted the card with the back, after moving the images to the computer. The next time I used it I had the problem.
Is anyone aware of any way to recover the shots? It is not a serious situation, since almost all the shots are just tourist-type shots (I am on vacation), and can be repeated in the future (my sister's family has a house nearby), but it would be great to be able to get them back.
The back is an eMotion 54 LV by the way. It happened with firmware version 5.09, i.e. the latest at this time (2009-07-01).
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The double images happened with every card I tried (Sandisk Ultra II, Extreme III or IV) and sometimes the shots on the CF card where really different from the same images saved in the internal memory. They had low contrast, low saturation, like washed out compared to the internal ones. Have a look, maybe it happens to your back too?
I was using the card (Ultra II 8GB) for several days without trouble. I think the trouble started when I used the back to format the card, after moving the images to the computer. The next time I went out the images were corrupted. They look correct in eXposure, but I cannot copy them to the harddrive properly. When I try, the first few images are actually from the day before, and most of the later ones are completely corrupted, weird colours, banding, and other errors.
I noticed during one day that I had a thin band at the top of a few images. I committed this to memory, but the images were mostly fine, so I didn't examine further.
Since the images look okay in eXposure, I think that the thumbnail made it fine, but the rest of the file is either written incorrectly, or the file system is corrupted, and loses track of data in each file, after the first few kilobytes.
I used Disk Utility (Mac) to make a complete copy of the card, and this copy exhibits the same problems, so I can send these images to Sinar once I get home. Maybe it will help them to examine the images, to see why the thumbnail is correct in eXposure but the images cannot be copied.