Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: R_Medvid on April 09, 2009, 06:44:50 am
-
I have a news flash from local Ukrainian Mamiya dealer that Mamiya has 3 new backs coming:
M18 - 18 MPx
M22 - enhanced ZD back
M31 - 31.6 Mpx (up to 1600 ISO)
Some tech specs in attachment
[attachment=12865:App1_Tec...al_specs.pdf]
-
I have a news flash from local Ukrainian Mamiya dealer that Mamiya has 3 new backs coming:
M18 - 18 MPx
M22 - enhanced ZD back
M31 - 31.6 Mpx (up to 1600 ISO)
Some tech specs in attachment
The spec is similar to the Kodak-chipped 18MP, 22MP and 31MP P+ backs from Phase. (does that mean the the ZD back has come to the end of its life?)
-
The spec is similar to the Kodak-chipped 18MP, 22MP and 31MP P+ backs from Phase. (does that mean the the ZD back has come to the end of its life?)
The exact wording of the news is this (translated by myself):
The 22 Mpx Mamiya ZD digital back has been enhanced and from now on is known as M22. All three adapters use the technogies Opticolor+, Dynamic+ and Lens+ that were previously imployed by Phase One.
BR,
-
After Mamiya stamped a big PHASEONE logo on their AFD, the logic thinking would be to conclude that the badly implemented ZD would get help form PhaseOne.... or a total redesign.
This is a good way for them to come up with an aggressively priced line of backs that can go after the Canon/Nikon and do it in a holistic way since Mamiya is one of the few -or the only?- company that makes their own glass, lenses, cameras and now competitive backs.
It would be interesting to see if the backs will adopt the new P1 RAW FORMAT and will work in the same way in Capture One software...
The exact wording of the news is this (translated by myself):
The 22 Mpx Mamiya ZD digital back has been enhanced and from now on is known as M22. All three adapters use the technogies Opticolor+, Dynamic+ and Lens+ that were previously imployed by Phase One.
BR,
-
After Mamiya stamped a big PHASEONE logo on their AFD, the logic thinking would be to conclude that the badly implemented ZD would get help form PhaseOne.... or a total redesign.
This is a good way for them to come up with an aggressively priced line of backs that can go after the Canon/Nikon and do it in a holistic way since Mamiya is one of the few -or the only?- company that makes their own glass, lenses, cameras and now competitive backs.
It would be interesting to see if the backs will adopt the new P1 RAW FORMAT and will work in the same way in Capture One software...
Looks like they have gone with the Kodax chips for these backs? It would make sense that these backs use the new Capture One Software. Next question will be the price?( How Low ). The ZD back is from a 2004 design & it is time for an update ( still 22MP?? ). Is the 2.2" screen large enough my G9 has a larger screen. Was Phase One behind this?
-
Hi
I just did a search & it seems that these backs are re badged Phase One P25+,P30+ & P21+ backs. They have the same specs, I could be wrong but is this a way of re branding these backs with a Mamiya logo, drop the ZD to streamline there business. Meaning Phase now controls all the backs & has input into body & lens design.
Denis
-
22mp is good size, 63megas file. They probably want to sell "afordable" backs so that there is more production of bodies and lenses, or bring MF to the masses... large sensors gives nice depth of field control, and diffraction of a 9 micron lets you close down to f: 16 before image degradation.
If they give a 22mp 1.1crop factor @, say, $8k they can dump them specially in times when budgets are more important... This way they can offer the 60mega pixel PhaseOne brands to the high end of the market...
My wish list now is a rangefinder like Mamiya 6 or Mamiya 7 with 645 lenses, minimal camera battery requirement, electronic focus range finder and digital lense...
Hi
I just did a search & it seems that these backs are re badged Phase One P25+,P30+ & P21+ backs. They have the same specs, I could be wrong but is this a way of re branding these backs with a Mamiya logo, drop the ZD to streamline there business. Meaning Phase now controls all the backs & has input into body & lens design.
Denis
-
If I can get a phase one quality back at a ZD price, I will sure as hell buy in. I don't need more than 22 MPIX right now anyway!
Good lord, this is actually freakin exciting!
Also, whoa, wait a damn minute. the M22 has live view. "Live Preview for composition and focus checking"
Reheheallllly? That is more interesting than the price.
-
Hi
I just did a search & it seems that these backs are re badged Phase One P25+,P30+ & P21+ backs. They have the same specs, I could be wrong but is this a way of re branding these backs with a Mamiya logo, drop the ZD to streamline there business. Meaning Phase now controls all the backs & has input into body & lens design.
Denis
I guess this is where the Lexus-Toyota references come from.
I wonder if this is marketing or actual product invention, but lower prices are good.
In ways this seems smart if the "Toyota" brand has new features and usability or somewhat confusing if the "Toyota" brand is nothing more than the previous "Lexus" with a different logo and lower price.
You still have to wonder about medium format as it gets more confusing by the day.
[attachment=12884:lexus_toyota.jpg]
-
The Leaf/Mamiya bundles are USA - MAC Group specific not created by Mamiya itself. Now worldwide is another thing and that is where the Phase/Mamiya bundles/offers/backs etc. will be good as well.
I see it as Phase One will continue to sell the high end, high MP backs with their logo and the lower MP, older sensors may then go to the Mamiya labeled backs. That would separate and elevate the Phase label but also sell a lot more backs through lower price point and the Mamiya label. The fact is, Mamiya does sell a good number of cameras far beyond the professional market, tons are sold to photo schools and students and amateurs, much more so that any other brand to those outlets.
Phase/Mam will do what they want but if they want to sell stuff then I suggest these three backs should be sold at $6K M18, $8K M22 and $10K M31. They could sell a lot this way, any higher and we are back to the same old shit and Canon and Nikon will win.
John, mind you, the 18MP and 22MP Kodak chip are no longer in production, whatever that means for the life-span of these "new" backs....
-
Phase/Mam will do what they want but if they want to sell stuff then I suggest these three backs should be sold at $6K M18, $8K M22 and $10K M31. They could sell a lot this way, any higher and we are back to the same old shit and Canon and Nikon will win.
I think $6, $8 and $10 is too high when you look at the used market pricing. I picked up a Leaf 54s with remaining warranty for $5500. A true ZD replacement, to sweep market share and suck people into Mamiya, should be priced $4900, $5999 and lets say $8999 for the P30+ version, at least when bundled with the Phase 645. Just my opinion, but at $5k I'd bite on that P21+ model.
-
...Next question will be the price?( How Low ). .....
Regarding the pricing I have this info:
M18 back - approx. $10,000
M31 System (which consists of AFDIII + M31 + 80mm / 2.8 AF) - $16,900
-
I certainly agree with TMARK on even lower price points, but I was hopefully looking at a middle ground of "let's be realistic" price points.
Now with these numbers showing as possible prices, way too high, smoking crack, good luck. M18 for $10K, a joke in the new market. Just buy a 5DII and get "as good a file" and even easier a system to use.
$10k for a P21. Nice file, but not $10k nice, especially when you consider the shutter lag and the Rube Goldberg like noises that eminate from the Mam. AFD before it takes a picture. By the by, I bought a Leaf 54s with 8 months of warranty left for $5500. Leaf demos are offered at $6300, who knows what people are actually paying. With deals like these, why would anybody buy a Mamiya branded Phase back at Phase prices? Really, I'd like to hear the explanation. This could have been a great time to seize market share, but if these proposed prices hold, well, its all she wrote.
Is this a pattern? Did Phase take a page from GM's platform sharing playbook? Boris/Hartblei = Phase Tilt Shift? Phase 645/Mam. AFDIII? Cadalliac Catera/Opel Omega? Saab 9-3/Saturn? Saab 9-7/Chevy Trailblaser? Same cars, different badges? HUGE PRICE DIFFERENTIAL? That type of marketing driven differentiation is over.
-
Regarding the pricing I have this info:
M18 back - approx. $10,000
M31 System (which consists of AFDIII + M31 + 80mm / 2.8 AF) - $16,900
they will not go anywhere with that price.
Hasselblad offers the same kit for 14,999.
-
Perhaps, these backs are derivatives, in some way, of nearly a decades worth of trade-ins that Phase might
have been warehousing.
Mark
-
they will not go anywhere with that price.
Hasselblad offers the same kit for 14,999.
I agree & those prices will have to come down. They should bundle with the DL + Vertical Grip rather than the AFDIII. The DL28 is 14,999 with an extra lens & that has been out for about 5 months now.
-
just got an email today for the hasselblad H31 package for 12900.....
i have been offered the leaf package at 12000....
for these mamiya packages to succeed we are talking 5000, 6500, 8000....and even at that they would have to compaete with the all of a sudden even lower used and demo deals......there is a lot to be had between 5000 and 10000 these days....
but even at that....2600 for a 5DII.....which still beats the M18 (or whatever it will be called) on 9 out of 10 features and specs and the file quality is very very close....i would not even say better or worse anymore, just different....
in other words: anyone looking to buy a top of the line system right now which will produce large and good enough files for most commercial applications will be looking at either the D3x or the 5DII or some used/demo DMF...a new M31 would at least go head to head with the D3x and beat it in terms of file quality (and get its ..s kicked in any other regard)....
-
those look alot like P1 specs even the font and layout looks like their site. the m22 has a sensor the size of the P45, just a hair over the P22 which is at 36x48mm, by a mm or a fractional mm. so thats a new chip perhaps or just a typo. the screen specs on that page sound like the P1 back's screen.
-
just got an email today for the hasselblad H31 package for 12900.....
i have been offered the leaf package at 12000....
for these mamiya packages to succeed we are talking 5000, 6500, 8000....and even at that they would have to compaete with the all of a sudden even lower used and demo deals......there is a lot to be had between 5000 and 10000 these days....
but even at that....2600 for a 5DII.....which still beats the M18 (or whatever it will be called) on 9 out of 10 features and specs and the file quality is very very close....i would not even say better or worse anymore, just different....
in other words: anyone looking to buy a top of the line system right now which will produce large and good enough files for most commercial applications will be looking at either the D3x or the 5DII or some used/demo DMF...a new M31 would at least go head to head with the D3x and beat it in terms of file quality (and get its ..s kicked in any other regard)....
to be fair the 12000$ package is not complete. the complete package, equivalent to the Mamiya is 14999$.
-
Disgraceful that in a new product the lcd is such crap. Even P&Ss have better lcds.
-
is this for real? that PDF looks like BS...
-
those look alot like P1 specs even the font and layout looks like their site. the m22 has a sensor the size of the P45, just a hair over the P22 which is at 36x48mm, by a mm or a fractional mm. so thats a new chip perhaps or just a typo. the screen specs on that page sound like the P1 back's screen.
The spec of the M22 suggests that the chip is the old (discontinued) KAF-22000 sensor (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/DiscontinuedProducts/index.jhtml?pq-path=15009). I wonder how many of these sensors (as well as the KAF-18000) are left in the fridge.
-
The spec of the M22 suggests that the chip is the old (discontinued) KAF-22000 sensor (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/DiscontinuedProducts/index.jhtml?pq-path=15009). I wonder how many of these sensors (as well as the KAF-18000) are left in the fridge.
I thought only film was for the fridge Also why would they come out with new backs that 2 out of 3 that the sensor is no longer being made? This is a wait & see as there is no official release yet.
Denis
-
Guys, if the PDF is right the M22 will include live view. Is that just not interesting, or did I misread it?
-
Guys, if the PDF is right the M22 will include live view. Is that just not interesting, or did I misread it?
Its not Nikon/Canon Live View on the LCD. It looks like the tethered implementation that is on the Phase + backs.
-
If these backs are for real, we don't know since there is no official statement yet, that these are just rebadged Phase P21+, P25+, P30+ backs, nothing more.
If this news is real and you somewhat get the feeling that this is more a trial balloon than actual substance, then this is the worst marketing in the world.
Mamiya may not have the brand name of Leica, Hasselblad, even Canon or Nikon, but it's more well known to the enthusiast and the professional level than Phase One.
If Phase does own Mamiya and is gong to move it to the dumping ground of almost discontinued product then the prices need to go way, way, down, not higher than Hasselblad, because anybody that knows how to use ebay can buy the exact same product, lightly used at about 1/2 the price.
All of medium format seems to be responding to the market by dropping their costs on the lower mpx cameras and raising their prices on the higher end and they can keep beating the same old drum with the same product, but a new logo doesn't cut it.
You somewhat get the feeling that somebody at Phase said, hey back in the warehouse we still have 10,000 AFDIII's and how bout all those p30's we took in on trade in, we can stick them together and call them the new ZD. Yea . . . that'll work.
-
those look alot like P1 specs even the font and layout looks like their site. the m22 has a sensor the size of the P45, just a hair over the P22 which is at 36x48mm, by a mm or a fractional mm. so thats a new chip perhaps or just a typo.
They do all seem like rebadged Phae One products, and it is also notworthy that two of the three use discontinued sensors, more evidence for them not being new designs, but rebadges.
But what interests me most is the idea that since two of the three use discontinued sensors and suggesting clearance pricing, the M31 might also be a "clearance" product, with its sensor also about to be discontinued or devalued. That is, this is another hint that Kodak is about to either discontinue its 31.6MP, 44x33mm sensor with 6.8 micron cell size in favor of a new 40MP 44x33mm sensor using the new 6 micron cell design, or "devalue" products using that sensor by introducing a new higher resolution sensor of the same size. The other hint is the recent Pentax statement about its recently revived DMF camera coming in 2010 with a sensor of "31MP or more"; that sounds to me like "31MP" if the current 44x33mm sensor is used; "more" if Pentax switches to a next generation 44x33mm sensor.
P. S. A third indication that the 31MP 44x33mm Kodak sensor is about to be "devalued" in some way is that Hasselblad has a price promotion on the H3DII-31, its kit using that same sensor: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=33710 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33710)
Or this could be just falling demand: either way, 31.6MP is perhaps too close to 24.5MP to easily sell as an advantage over 24x36mm format DSLRs. Which again points to a market driven need for a 40MP, 6 micron, 44x33mm as the new entry-level option.
-
I agree With BJL, that would make a lot of sense in a pricing structure, especially considering the pentax statements. All of this 6 micron business leads me to say "Oh the humanity!" it terms of diffraction. Some of us NEED to shoot at f16-f22. In my opinion loading these sensors with more pixels is causing more problems then solving them.
-
Yes, these M backs are re-badged Phase One backs. While the 18MP and 22MP sensors may be discontinued, Phase One purchases in ample quantities to continue selling them. At the point they truly become scarce, we'll let you know. Also, these are not leftover trade-ins. These are new, never used units.
I don't know anything about the products other than it is our technology in the digital back component. I do not know what software comes with it, although I would assume Capture One. But I don't have confirmation at this point.
I've seen a lot of grousing over the pricing when compared to used pricing and eBay pricing. I can tell you that the used market will never be a clarion call for how we price new, never used products. I can buy a used Toyota Camry (there's that Toyota reference again...) today for $17,000. Does that mean Toyota should price their new models at $17,000? That is ridiculous.
NEW Phase One and Mamiya products are price competitive with any other NEW medium format digital product. And that's the way it's going to be. We are not going to drop our new product prices to used price levels. While some of you feel you won't pay higher than what a used back will go for, that will never be standard pricing policy from any manufacturer who wishes to remain in business.
While it is true that medium format still requires a substantial investment, and while we do still offer very, very premium priced products, the past 2 years has seen an unprecedented lowering of entry point for medium format solutions in the $10,000 - $16,000 price range. Previously, you didn't really have viable options below $25,000. If you don't like the product or don't want the product, then don't buy it. For those that do, pricing has become very affordable for many models.
It will be interesting to see how Mamiya differentiates (or not) from the Phase One products they are basing these units on. Please bear in mind, this is just a starting point that will continue to develop.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
-
Yes, these M backs are re-badged Phase One backs. While the 18MP and 22MP sensors may be discontinued, Phase One purchases in ample quantities to continue selling them. At the point they truly become scarce, we'll let you know. Also, these are not leftover trade-ins. These are new, never used units.
I don't know anything about the products other than it is our technology in the digital back component. I do not know what software comes with it, although I would assume Capture One. But I don't have confirmation at this point.
I've seen a lot of grousing over the pricing when compared to used pricing and eBay pricing. I can tell you that the used market will never be a clarion call for how we price new, never used products. I can buy a used Toyota Camry (there's that Toyota reference again...) today for $17,000. Does that mean Toyota should price their new models at $17,000? That is ridiculous.
NEW Phase One and Mamiya products are price competitive with any other NEW medium format digital product. And that's the way it's going to be. We are not going to drop our new product prices to used price levels. While some of you feel you won't pay higher than what a used back will go for, that will never be standard pricing policy from any manufacturer who wishes to remain in business.
While it is true that medium format still requires a substantial investment, and while we do still offer very, very premium priced products, the past 2 years has seen an unprecedented lowering of entry point for medium format solutions in the $10,000 - $16,000 price range. Previously, you didn't really have viable options below $25,000. If you don't like the product or don't want the product, then don't buy it. For those that do, pricing has become very affordable for many models.
It will be interesting to see how Mamiya differentiates (or not) from the Phase One products they are basing these units on. Please bear in mind, this is just a starting point that will continue to develop.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
I think the benchmark is not really the used market but look at what hasselblad can offer... And if those M stuffs are more expensive you're out.
-
I think the benchmark is not really the used market but look at what hasselblad can offer... And if those M stuffs are more expensive you're out.
I think you speak a little hastily David...
Hasselblad is offering an H3DII-31 without a lens for $12,995 and with the 80mm kit lens for $14,995. I don't have exact USD pricing on the Mamiya Kits yet, but the M-31 kit will be in the same ballpark as the H3DII-31 kit. And Hasselblad doesn't offer any products priced to compete with the M18 or M22.
I don't see any pricing advantage for Hasselblad. If anything, their latest newsletter shows them playing a bit of catchup as Mamiya/Leaf, Mamiya/Phase, and Phase One ourselves have undercut the previous Hassleblad entry level benchmarks.
Also, a product does not have to be cheaper than a competitor to beat a competitor. It must offer a superior value proposition, or be dramatically lower in price. All of these products are now bunched up at very similar pricepoints, which allows customers to make choices based on the actual merits of the products themselves.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
-
...and to add to Steve's point, it doesn't make sense to directly compare a focal plane system with a leaf shutter system anyway. Some people need either one or the other.
-
I can tell you that the used market will never be a clarion call for how we price new, never used products. I can buy a used Toyota Camry (there's that Toyota reference again...) today for $17,000. Does that mean Toyota should price their new models at $17,000?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
The reason I made the used reference was, the Mamiya listed on the Ukranian Dealers PDF was a AFDIII not the newest body, so used or new it is still last years model and yes Toyota does cut their prices deeply on a 2008 vs. a 2009 model.
I just wonder how this all shakes out, but since news and information is scarce I guess we should wait for the next Ukrainian PDF.
BTW: For what it's worth I was at a camera dealers today who has sold 46 Nikon D3x's, but not a single one to professional photographers, all Doctors, CEO types. This dealer said no pro he sells to wants to spend $8,000 right now for a few more megapixels than the 5d2.
He has sold every 5d2 he can get his hands on.
-
The reason I made the used reference was, the Mamiya listed on the Ukranian Dealers PDF was a AFDIII not the newest body, so used or new it is still last years model and yes Toyota does cut their prices deeply on a 2008 vs. a 2009 model.
I just wonder how this all shakes out, but since news and information is scarce I guess we should wait for the next Ukrainian PDF.
BTW: For what it's worth I was at a camera dealers today who has sold 46 Nikon D3x's, but not a single one to professional photographers, all Doctors, CEO types. This dealer said no pro he sells to wants to spend $8,000 right now for a few more megapixels than the 5d2.
He has sold every 5d2 he can get his hands on.
The AFDIII is the newest body.
I didn't say Toyota doesn't cut their prices, I said they don't price new products based on used product pricing.
Regarding D3X vs 5DMKII sales to Pros - "good enough" really seems to have taken root in the professional community...
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
-
Regarding D3X vs 5DMKII sales to Pros - "good enough" really seems to have taken root in the professional community...
Actually, for any professional photographer, 'good enough' has always been the right choice.
Professional photography has never just been about resolution, or solely about imaging technicalities. Reliability, end use, portability, speed, cost, and flexibility have always important in equipment choices. No single device is 'best': what we use needs to be 'good enough' where it counts.
Professionals use the right equipment to meet or exceed their clients' expectations.
Wollom
-
The AFDIII is the newest body.
I didn't say Toyota doesn't cut their prices, I said they don't price new products based on used product pricing.
Regarding D3X vs 5DMKII sales to Pros - "good enough" really seems to have taken root in the professional community...
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve,
You guys are confusing me. I thought the newest Mamiya was the 645DF the one with that right angle grip, but maybe that's the AFDIII. I need to get up to speed on my pdf's.
Anyway, the professional ranks haven't decided that "good enough", is just good enough and joined the 5d club, but then again a lot of professionals that earn their living in photograpy and have medium format digital use them less than they did and it's not because we all sold them on ebay.
Many of us have made the "investment" in medium format to "at the time" move forward and unless you bought a house in Vegas, or a $64,000 Chevy Suburban you probably haven't seen anything drop as fast as the equity of medium format backs and cameras, new or used.
Now, you and I both know the only real equity in any digital camera, regardless of price is how much money you can make with it. No digital camera appreciates in price.
I think you also know that in the world of photos for advertising, every margin has become tighter though expectations are higher, so "good enough" really depends on what your shooting, what is expected and megapixels, is not the only standard for good.
What this dealer was explaining on d3x sales was his surprise that out of the 40 something he sold, all were sold to non professionals. Since some of his professional customers already had a D3 in their bag to compliment their medium format back, it seemed like a natural progression that they would go for the d3x which by most accounts is at least the image equal to most of the older 22 mpx backs and has more usability.
Instead they went to the 5d2, which I guess is more a reflection of the current economy or maybe the 5d2 is just a hellofagooddeal.
Now in regards to the Phase, or Mamiya or AFD1,2,3, or the 645 DF I hope whatever it's called it's the best camera in the world. I hope it has a 20" holographic lcd, goes to iso 20 billion, has leaf and focal plane shutters, twelve kinds of finders, makes the perfect espresso while you shoot and retails for any amount of money I can afford. I also hope Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar follow suit and make an even better camera, one that none of us, including our clients can do without.
That's healthy for our industry and my business.
The flip side is a logo change of existing product really doesn't do anything other than confuse me, but like I mentioned, I'm easily confused.
B
-
I agree that the Hasselblad looks like the better deal here: better AF, nicer handling, better balanced (in my hands anyway)easier to manually focus, etc. I my humble opinion, probably the only advantage for the Mamiya is the cheaper lenses. (and the more universal RAW file format.)
-
those new D lenses aren't cheaper, it's the legacy glass...then there is the leaf shutter issue, the list goes on and on...
-
those new D lenses aren't cheaper, it's the legacy glass...then there is the leaf shutter issue, the list goes on and on...
Really depends on which D lenses. The new 75-150, 150 2.8 & 28 are similar in price to the H lenses. The 45,80 & 120 ( D ones) are about the same as the original ones. All my lenses are non D ones & I find the quality of Mamiya glass to be excellent. IMHO about Hasselblad, is the 28 & 35-90 being designed for the 36x48 chip. Yes it will work on the H3DII-60 ( when it comes out ) but these two lenses will not use the 60MP sensor area. I have compared the two 120 macro lenses a few years ago (Mamiya, H 120 ) & there was nothing in it. They were about the same. I just find the H lenses are too heavy. With the Hy6 lenses being that they are LS they were a similar weight to the Mamiya glass.
Back on topic the price of the 645ZDb kit is $10,999 USD. (http://www.mamiya.com/mamiya-645zdb.html). If the M25 will replace the ZD @ a similar price is it a good deal? At least the M25 will have the PO software which you can use with your Canon & Nikon D3X.
Denis
-
I disagree that the M18 is a waste of time to release now because even my square 16mp Ixpress V96C delivers better images (of course, it takes more effort, better technique) even after cropping down to a rectangle than what I can achieve with my DX Nikons, and from where I'm standing, the M18 would definitely be an upgrade in all senses - no need to tote along the ImageBank (although it does have it's advantages too), hopefully less cropping since it's already a rectangle and when shooting 4:3 rectangles, it offers me quite a resolution upgrade from 12mp up to 18mp. What I have no idea or justification about is really how big a market this point of view represents. In my mind, going from a D200, D300, D700 or D3 to the M18 is a big upgrade if you mainly shoot on tripod or in the studio. Maybe Phase One and Mamiya are hoping (or they know?) that there are enough people like me out there??? At this price point, I suppose I would be thinking that I could probably hunt around for a used P45, or else buy the M18 for the same price new. So it comes down to whether you're ok with buying used or you prefer to buy new and don't really need all those extra pixels.
On the other hand, somehow I seriously doubt anyone will go from a D3x to the M18, and admittedly, the Canon 5DII looks better value than the M18 in overall terms, but then in my mind, if you were looking for digital MF, it was to get bigger than 35mm, so why are you looking at a 5DII anyway? And now we're getting in that whole, horses for courses thing, so I better stop writing...
-
Unfortunately no news for me. I think that MF is still in the early development stage.
After all it is about sensor size but we are again seeing those cropped sensors popping
up and more over at my personal point of view no good price offer. Fast changes
in prices are good indication of maturity (though this time combined with a bad economy).
I'm only complaining because I'm more than sure this is about to change, I just need
to wait some more years. For 35mm it took quite a while to see FF, it's time for the MF,
sooner or later.
-
Do you think that the M22 will be usable on a LF camera using a simple mam 645 plate and a sync cord, or it will be only usable with 645 Mamiya ?
-
Unfortunately no news for me. I think that MF is still in the early development stage.
After all it is about sensor size but we are again seeing those cropped sensors popping
up and more over at my personal point of view no good price offer. Fast changes
in prices are good indication of maturity (though this time combined with a bad economy).
I'm only complaining because I'm more than sure this is about to change, I just need
to wait some more years. For 35mm it took quite a while to see FF, it's time for the MF,
sooner or later.
The future is now: the Phase One P65+ is a full frame medium format sensor.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
The future is now
By the way... you are working on sunday ?
-
Do you think that the M22 will be usable on a LF camera using a simple mam 645 plate and a sync cord, or it will be only usable with 645 Mamiya ?
Yes, it will work fine on a LF camera.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
-
By the way... you are working on sunday ?
Licking my wounds from a trip to Vegas. Forums are what I do to relax.
-
those new D lenses aren't cheaper, it's the legacy glass...then there is the leaf shutter issue, the list goes on and on...
Why can't they design an adaptor atleast for the older Leafshutter lens...????
Snook
-
No prices yet?
Ed
-
No prices yet?
German price list:
Mamiya M31
Art.-Nr. 70 03 20
Preis: EUR 10.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M31 System
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und M31 Back
Art.-Nr. 32 02 03
Preis: EUR 12.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M22
Art.-Nr. 70 02 30
Preis: EUR 10.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M22 System
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und M22 Back
Art.-Nr. 32 02 02
Preis: EUR 12.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M18
Art.-Nr. 70 01 20
Preis: EUR 7.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M18 System
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und M18 Back
Art.-Nr. 32 02 01
Preis: EUR 9.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya ZD Back Double Buffer
Art.-Nr. 21 05 25
Preis: EUR 4.990,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya ZD Back Set
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und ZD Back DB
Art.-Nr. 32 60 30
Preis: EUR 7.980,- zzgl. MwSt.
If you buy a Mamiya ZD Back Set or a Mamiya ZD camera one of these lenses is free on top:
Mamiya AF 2,8/55 mm
Mamiya AF 4,0/210 mm ULD
Mamiya AF 4,5/300 mm AP
Mamiya AF 4,5/55-110 mm Zoom
Mamiya AF 4,5/105-210 mm ULD
-
Mamiya M22
Art.-Nr. 70 02 30
Preis: EUR 10.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Wow, that's steep. Comparing it to my 22MP back (Sinar eMotion54LV), the Sinar has a 3yr warranty, built-in solid state memory, live view and adapter system, and I believe it's around €6K now.
The Mamiya M31 seems more on a par with the Sinar eSprit65 pricewise and has same resolution, but of course the Sinar has 3yr warranty again (best of all MFDBs), the 3" VGA screen (best of all MFDBs), built in DNG and JPEG processing (the only MFDB to offer this), etc.
Brand loyalty aside, I can't see why anyone would buy these Mamiya backs at these prices.
-
Comparing it to my 22MP back (Sinar eMotion54LV), the Sinar has a 3yr warranty, built-in solid state memory, live view and adapter system, and I believe it's around €6K now...
Brand loyalty aside, I can't see why anyone would buy these Mamiya backs at these prices.
well, Mamiya sells the ZD back with similar specs for €5K ...
-
German price list:
Mamiya M31
Preis: EUR 10.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M31 System
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und M31 Back
Preis: EUR 12.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Interesting: the extra cost of adding a body and lens is a relatively tiny EUR 2,000 for each back. This goes with the idea that DMF profits are dominated by backs, not by bodies or standard lenses (maybe subsequent lenses are a good profit source too.) Note also that Phase One is now effectively in control of the Mamiya 645 system, and that former executives of the back maker Imacon are mostly run the new "Hasselblad", and do it the former Imacon offices in Denmark.
This all suggests that there is little hope of the Hy6 system opening itself to Phase One backs: if the Hy6 back-makers (Leaf and Sinar, and Sinar's owner Jenoptic) are the main money makers, they probably control the decisions, and they have no incentive to share back sales with Phase One.
-
well, Mamiya sells the ZD back with similar specs for €5K ...
Not sure what you mean - the ZD is not similar in specs to the e54LV at all, other than MP count.
-
Not sure what you mean
was just referring to the chip size and the resolution... which are in the first step the most significant specs
-
I don't see the Mamiya backs as new products.
The Mamiya cameras had to be rebadged as Phase One, and now the old Phase One backs are going to be rebadged as Mamiya. Nice... and weird. But now I can buy Phase backs at any retailer that carries Mamiya products. That's good, but the prices better be a hell of a lot cheaper for this to make any sense at all.
Right now, I think the Mamiya DL33 (AFDIII and Leaf Aptus-II 7) is the best Mamiya package out there, but that's because I really like the Leaf files.
-
I don't see the Mamiya backs as new products.
The Mamiya cameras had to be rebadged as Phase One, and now the old Phase One backs are going to be rebadged as Mamiya. Nice... and weird. But now I can buy Phase backs at any retailer that carries Mamiya products. That's good, but the prices better be a hell of a lot cheaper for this to make any sense at all.
Right now, I think the Mamiya DL33 (AFDIII and Leaf Aptus-II 7) is the best Mamiya package out there, but that's because I really like the Leaf files.
I have to agree on the DL33 package, but even better is that you can now get a demo DL28 (AFDIII/80mm Dig. Lens & Aptus II-6) for under 10k ($9,999.00). Thats with a full warranty too. I agree on the Leaf files too.
-
...sorry, posted in the wrong thread ...
-
was just referring to the chip size and the resolution... which are in the first step the most significant specs
Don't they also use the same sensor?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Don't they also use the same sensor?
Cheers,
Bernard
I think they use the same Dalsa 22 MP CCD sensor
I refer to ZD (camera & back), Aptus 22 or 54s & Some Sinar ( A few use the Kodak)
Phase 40+ & 65+ (dalsa) the M18,22 &31 are Kodak.
http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/applications/dsc.aspx (http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/applications/dsc.aspx)
Denis
-
The ZD back uses a Dalsa sensor, and so does the P65+ and all the Leaf backs.
The P20, P21, P30, P25, P45 and P20+, P21+, P30+, P25+ and P45+ all use Kodak sensors. This is from memory but I'm pretty sure this is correct.
-
The ZD back uses a Dalsa sensor, and so does the P65+ and all the Leaf backs.
The P20, P21, P30, P25, P45 and P20+, P21+, P30+, P25+ and P45+ all use Kodak sensors. This is from memory but I'm pretty sure this is correct.
Correct. Also the P40+ uses a Dalsa sensor.
-
I naively thought that since they were "Mamiya" backs price was destined to be a lot lower. Sinar backs still the best buy, I think.
Thanks
Eduardo
German price list:
Mamiya M31
Art.-Nr. 70 03 20
Preis: EUR 10.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M31 System
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und M31 Back
Art.-Nr. 32 02 03
Preis: EUR 12.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M22
Art.-Nr. 70 02 30
Preis: EUR 10.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M22 System
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und M22 Back
Art.-Nr. 32 02 02
Preis: EUR 12.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M18
Art.-Nr. 70 01 20
Preis: EUR 7.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya M18 System
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und M18 Back
Art.-Nr. 32 02 01
Preis: EUR 9.995,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya ZD Back Double Buffer
Art.-Nr. 21 05 25
Preis: EUR 4.990,- zzgl. MwSt.
Mamiya ZD Back Set
Mamiya 645 AFD III mit Sekor AF 2,8/80 mm D und ZD Back DB
Art.-Nr. 32 60 30
Preis: EUR 7.980,- zzgl. MwSt.
If you buy a Mamiya ZD Back Set or a Mamiya ZD camera one of these lenses is free on top:
Mamiya AF 2,8/55 mm
Mamiya AF 4,0/210 mm ULD
Mamiya AF 4,5/300 mm AP
Mamiya AF 4,5/55-110 mm Zoom
Mamiya AF 4,5/105-210 mm ULD
-
http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html)
-
Mamiya are a joke when it comes to communication. They issue press releases after various sites are already selling their new products.
Go to their mamiya.co.uk and see if you can even find information on their original zd back. Its a collection of dead links and outdated information.
And it not just digital products, A couple of years from now they may even get around to mentioning they have a new AFd3 camera !
Phase One should give them a good boot up the arse, not that anyone appears to have told them about phase one...............
Doesnt exactly inspire confidence in either company.
-
Mamiya are a joke when it comes to communication. They issue press releases after various sites are already selling their new products.
Go to their mamiya.co.uk and see if you can even find information on their original zd back. Its a collection of dead links and outdated information.
And it not just digital products, A couple of years from now they may even get around to mentioning they have a new AFd3 camera !
Phase One should give them a good boot up the arse, not that anyone appears to have told them about phase one...............
Doesnt exactly inspire confidence in either company.
I heard from the Canadian Phase One distributor last night that the current Phase One/AFDIII body will be replaced by a new body in July of this year. I also
heard that Capture One 5.0 will be released when Snow Leopard for Apple is released. Apparently it will be a jump like C1 3.x was to C1 4.x
-
Apparently it will be a jump like C1 3.x was to C1 4.x
what? no please!
-
what? no please!
That's what I thought too. I JUST bought 4.8.
Maybe they will clean up the interface
-
Maybe they will clean up the interface
if the jump is like from V3 to V4 they probably will design it in super black with neon green flashing icons...
-
I heard from the Canadian Phase One distributor last night that the current Phase One/AFDIII body will be replaced by a new body in July of this year. I also
heard that Capture One 5.0 will be released when Snow Leopard for Apple is released. Apparently it will be a jump like C1 3.x was to C1 4.x
if that would also mean vertical handgrip and leaf shutter lenses together with the new body, phamiya is really becoming a great option... gotta love some rumors
-
I heard from the Canadian Phase One distributor last night that the current Phase One/AFDIII body will be replaced by a new body in July of this year. I also
heard that Capture One 5.0 will be released when Snow Leopard for Apple is released. Apparently it will be a jump like C1 3.x was to C1 4.x
The new DF camera AFDIV was announced a while back with a vertical grip, leaf shutter lenses, etc. Unless and until I see one, use one, and its not a warmed over cow pie of a camera with first generation Canon Elph shutter lag that they are trying to sell for $4,500, its immaterial. I mean they have been trying to sell AFDII and III cameras as viable competitors to the H system and Hy6 systems, which is just baldfaced, shameless puffing. You have to have a gigantic set of heuvos to sell the Phamiya cameras as being better than the H and Hy6, unless you need a focal shutter. If you need 1/4000 shutter, sure thing, the AFd cameras make sense. But over all, they just feel crappy with a digital back. Nice lenses, although, now they are expensive.
-
Nice lenses, although, now they are expensive.
One might say so, although they are less than the HC lenses.
Have you shot with an AFDIII? With latest firmware?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
-
The new DF camera AFDIV was announced a while back with a vertical grip, leaf shutter lenses, etc. Unless and until I see one, use one, and its not a warmed over cow pie of a camera with first generation Canon Elph shutter lag that they are trying to sell for $4,500, its immaterial. I mean they have been trying to sell AFDII and III cameras as viable competitors to the H system and Hy6 systems, which is just baldfaced, shameless puffing. You have to have a gigantic set of heuvos to sell the Phamiya cameras as being better than the H and Hy6, unless you need a focal shutter. If you need 1/4000 shutter, sure thing, the AFd cameras make sense. But over all, they just feel crappy with a digital back. Nice lenses, although, now they are expensive.
I think that always depends. I chose the AFDIII, because for ME it felt much better than the Hy6 (which felt like a cheap toy camera) and the H camera (still didn't like the feeling). I'm not saying it is the better camera, but for me it felt better in my hands when handling and shooting with it.