Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: alan100 on April 01, 2009, 04:29:26 pm
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I am looking for some advice on the Rodenstock HR Digaron 23mm and Apo-Digitar 28mm. I shoot architecture on an alpa xy with a range of lenses, the widest of which is the Schneider Apo digitar 35mm. This is usually wide enough but when necessary I will stitch two images. I'm guessing but this extra gives me a similar angle of view to the 28mm. Given the trouble of stitching and gain adjusts I was thinking of buying one of the Rodenstocks. Has anyone experience with either? I'd like to know how much real movement these lenses have and if they have flaws like the Schnieder 35mm ie casts and centrefold and is there is any barrelling distortion with the lenses. Do they warrant the high price?
Thanks
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flaws like the Schnieder 35mm ie casts and centrefold and is there is any barrelling distortion with the lenses.
i canno't answer to your post... but i'd like to know what are you thinking about your 35 ?
I hesitate betwen the sironar digital 35 (not the HR) and the apo digitar XL... thanks !
Main use will be architecture with movements !
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From what I've seen is that the 23HR has less distortion than the 28HR.
However for that sort of money you would expect it to be bloody good!
If I was cashed up I would have a Sinar arTec or an Alpa Max with all Rodenstock HR lenses.
No stuffing around with centre filters etc.
Right now my D3x will have to do the job and it's pretty good.
Not in the HR and MFDB league I might add,but not in that price range either.
Best,
Willem.
N.B It is known that the Scheider Digitars have less or no distortion.
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I forgot to mention that the Schneider 28 Apo Digitar is not suitable for architecture.
Too much distortion!
The Rodenstock 28HR is far superior!
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I have the Schneider Apo digitar 48mm 35mm and 24mm lenses. The angle of view is obviously a lot wider on the 24mm lens. I shoot architecture and landscapes. My architectural compositions are always quite tight, however I use the 35mm probably 80% of the time at least. The reason is that the amount of lens movement possible on the 24mm is tiny compared to the 35mm. You only get a couple of mm compared to 17mm and 20mm with the 35mm lens, so the 24mm lens is useless when you have to correct verticals.
The image quality with the 24mm is fantastic though. I would use it more for internal shots where things are tight. I know it's a pain in the behind stitching but the ultra wide lens won't solve the problem. I think anyway the type of image you get with the stitched images just works really well for architecture and landscapes. Also I think you just get a much more dynamic shot where you have stronger lens movements.
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The Rodenstock HR 28 is a really outstanding lens for architectural work. The price is really high, but I think it will keep it. The 24 Schneider doesn`t work with bigger chips and I think with the competition of the 35mm Format the sensor design will grow up. The 23 perhaps is a better solution but the final version is not on the market.
On the Artec I used 28 and 35mm lenses and it is a good combination.
Michael
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After a long 5 month wait, I just received my Alpa 23mm HR and it's by far the best lens I have ever used in the field. In comparison with the Schneider 24mm XL Digitar, the 23HR has a huge amount of shift capability, and it is also sharp wide open (f/5.6 is like f/11 on a 24XL). I've used the 28HR, 24XL, 35XL, and 47XL and I found that the Schneiders are great to have if you need a large amount of shift, not to mention that the image circles on the XL lenses are quite smooth compared to the HR's. There is distortion at the edge of the image circle for the HR's, but the 23 and 28mm HR lenses are wide enough that I haven't found a need to surpass 11mm of shift. The 23HR is pricey, but the image quality and having the ability to stitch a very wide shot makes a world of a difference for my architectural and personal fine art work.
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Bloody Nora
I thought the amazing new rechargeable battery which I just bought and which I can use with my Hasselblad H3D together with the cambo digitar wide DS was the best thing since sliced pan but I just checked the rodenstock website and the 23mm lens is lile manna from heaven. BTW you say you don't need to surpass 11mm of shift with the 23mm lens. Is this really possible. It says the maximum movement is 7/5mm vertical/horizontal. But even that would make quite a difference compared to the 24mm schneider.
What do you actually mean when you say the image circle on the HR lenses is not very smooth?
but you haveAfter a long 5 month wait, I just received my Alpa 23mm HR and it's by far the best lens I have ever used in the field. In comparison with the Schneider 24mm XL Digitar, the 23HR has a huge amount of shift capability, and it is also sharp wide open (f/5.6 is like f/11 on a 24XL). I've used the 28HR, 24XL, 35XL, and 47XL and I found that the Schneiders are great to have if you need a large amount of shift, not to mention that the image circles on the XL lenses are quite smooth compared to the HR's. There is distortion at the edge of the image circle for the HR's, but the 23 and 28mm HR lenses are wide enough that I haven't found a need to surpass 11mm of shift. The 23HR is pricey, but the image quality and having the ability to stitch a very wide shot makes a world of a difference for my architectural and personal fine art work.
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enda, what is this recharchable batttery for the H3D back? please fill me in. thanks, peter
Bloody Nora
I thought the amazing new rechargeable battery which I just bought and which I can use with my Hasselblad H3D together with the cambo digitar wide DS was the best thing since sliced pan but I just checked the rodenstock website and the 23mm lens is lile manna from heaven. BTW you say you don't need to surpass 11mm of shift with the 23mm lens. Is this really possible. It says the maximum movement is 7/5mm vertical/horizontal. But even that would make quite a difference compared to the 24mm schneider.
What do you actually mean when you say the image circle on the HR lenses is not very smooth?
but you have
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Sorry, I got my numbers mixed up! The 28HR can be shifted to 10-11mm horizontal before unacceptable distortion starts to occur. The 23HR's shift capabilities are 7/5mm horizontal as Rodenstock states. I didn't go with the 24XL because I shift a lot for most of my photographs, I would rather stitch a 28HR shot than purchase a lens that only has a 2-3mm capability. The HR lenses all have a sharp image circle compared to the Schneiders, which means that it does not have a graduated vignette. It kind of looks like a lens got cut off by stacking two filters on a lens when you hit the image circle.
All the best,
Andrew
Bloody Nora
I thought the amazing new rechargeable battery which I just bought and which I can use with my Hasselblad H3D together with the cambo digitar wide DS was the best thing since sliced pan but I just checked the rodenstock website and the 23mm lens is lile manna from heaven. BTW you say you don't need to surpass 11mm of shift with the 23mm lens. Is this really possible. It says the maximum movement is 7/5mm vertical/horizontal. But even that would make quite a difference compared to the 24mm schneider.
What do you actually mean when you say the image circle on the HR lenses is not very smooth?
but you have
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Ya. I sort of regret buying the 24xl to be honest. The 23HR sounds way more promising. Even the 7mm rise would be quite a difference with it's angle of view. Like you say I too end up stictching with the 35mm lens most of the time. Checked the price on the Alpa website. Thank God I was sitting down. It's well over twice the price of the 24XL.
Sorry, I got my numbers mixed up! The 28HR can be shifted to 10-11mm horizontal before unacceptable distortion starts to occur. The 23HR's shift capabilities are 7/5mm horizontal as Rodenstock states. I didn't go with the 24XL because I shift a lot for most of my photographs, I would rather stitch a 28HR shot than purchase a lens that only has a 2-3mm capability. The HR lenses all have a sharp image circle compared to the Schneiders, which means that it does not have a graduated vignette. It kind of looks like a lens got cut off by stacking two filters on a lens when you hit the image circle.
All the best,
Andrew
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enda, what is this recharchable batttery for the H3D back? please fill me in. thanks, peter
From BH Photo website:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5030..._Universal.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503090-REG/Tekkeon_MP3450_MP3450_myPower_ALL_Universal.html)
Add Belkin FW 400 hub and a FW 400 - 800 cable...runs all day.
Bob
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Sorry, I got my numbers mixed up! The 28HR can be shifted to 10-11mm horizontal before unacceptable distortion starts to occur. The 23HR's shift capabilities are 7/5mm horizontal as Rodenstock states. I didn't go with the 24XL because I shift a lot for most of my photographs, I would rather stitch a 28HR shot than purchase a lens that only has a 2-3mm capability. The HR lenses all have a sharp image circle compared to the Schneiders, which means that it does not have a graduated vignette. It kind of looks like a lens got cut off by stacking two filters on a lens when you hit the image circle.
All the best,
Andrew
often there is sky or uniform textures at the up- shiftet part of an image. for this motif i use the rodenstock wides till the end of its circle or even slightly over it and copy later e.g. the sky in the vignetted corners. vignetting starts ( with dalsa 36x48cm sensors in horizontal sensor position ) with the 28HR at 12-13mm and with the 23HR at 9-10mm shift.
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often there is sky or uniform textures at the up- shiftet part of an image. for this motif i use the rodenstock wides till the end of its circle or even slightly over it and copy later e.g. the sky in the vignetted corners. vignetting starts ( with dalsa 36x48cm sensors in horizontal sensor position ) with the 28HR at 12-13mm and with the 23HR at 9-10mm shift.
Yes I would agree that wide angles in Architectural photography are now a pain but I think part of the problem is actually the Format, ie Long and thin compared to a 5/4 format
a two shot stitch seem to become more akin to the 5/4 (ideal) ratio
my widest lens is a 38 but to be honest prefer to stitch on anything above the 58/72, if one goes too wide there always seems to be issues
Edmund
www.edmundsumner.co.uk
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I believe the dimensions of the P65+ sensor is 54 x 40.5
making it not too far off from 5:4
which appeals to me.
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I use a 24xl all the time, and don't find it limiting. Every blue moon I wish for a little more movement, but Its not that often.
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Hi Mark
Here's a link to the big wave power website
http://www.bigwavepower.com/prod_search/powerall.php (http://www.bigwavepower.com/prod_search/powerall.php). It's called the EnergyPORT or also the Titan I. Don't ask me why it has 2 names. I bought it in expanseys.ie and it was called the Titan I.
The one Bob suggests also seems to be fine
enda, what is this recharchable batttery for the H3D back? please fill me in. thanks, peter
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Hi John
Are you an architectural photographer. If so how do you take photos with the 24xl of taller spaces or buildings when you have so little lens movements and you are quite close to your subject? I find the lens has very limited use in these cases.
I use a 24xl all the time, and don't find it limiting. Every blue moon I wish for a little more movement, but Its not that often.
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I have been told that the 23mm new rodenstock has some problems in that it is easy creates a lens flare spot in the middle of the image and that the lens requires as a result a lot of care in its use. Can anyone confirm? My alpa does not offer a good system to shade the lens. How would other systems over come this? Finally has anyone had any colour shift problems with these lenses? Does their design reduce these problems or are they just not there?
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I believe the dimensions of the P65+ sensor is 54 x 40.5
making it not too far off from 5:4
which appeals to me.
It will take a 67.5mm image circle to cover a P65+ sensor, so the HR Digaron-S 23 and 28 lenses will not have much movement. In fact, Rodenstock says that their new line of Digaron-W lenses should be used instead with this larger sensor in order to have enough shifting capability. However, their widest Digaron-W is 40mm.
So, for architectural use, what do you think is preferred: a P65+ and the longer Digaron-W 40 lens, or a smaller sensor (37x49) and the much wider Digaron-S 23 or S-28 lenses??
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So, for architectural use, what do you think is preferred: a P65+ and the longer Digaron-W 40 lens,?
Nobody have test it so far...
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Nobody have test it so far...
My question is more generic for the architectural shooters here. Basically, would you prefer to have a larger sensor with some restriction to longer focal lengths for larger image circles (e.g., the 60MP P65+ back and 40mm lens), or would you prefer to use a smaller sensor in order to use a much wider focal length with movements (e.g., the 50MP H3DII-50 back and 23mm lens)?
In other words, is a larger chip and extra megapixels of more value to you, or is having a wider angle of view (with movements) of more value?
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Now that a Hasselblad H3DII 31 is only $12,995 (without lens) I was wondering what that or a similar back will go for. (New or better still used.)
It crossed my mind that I could buy a relatively modest 31 megapixel back and use it on my view camera with my 35mm Rodenstock Apo Grandagon and my 47MM Super Angulon XL. I'd use the sliding back movement to shoot several shots and stitch. I have a Linhof Technikardan 45S camera.
Now I've done a lot of stitching with Autopano, so I know that works well. But any opinions of using such a digital back with those lenses. Will the color shift too much? Is the lens resolution good enough? Other issues that I haven't thought of?
Thanks.
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My question is more generic for the architectural shooters here. Basically, would you prefer to have a larger sensor with some restriction to longer focal lengths for larger image circles (e.g., the 60MP P65+ back and 40mm lens), or would you prefer to use a smaller sensor in order to use a much wider focal length with movements (e.g., the 50MP H3DII-50 back and 23mm lens)?
In other words, is a larger chip and extra megapixels of more value to you, or is having a wider angle of view (with movements) of more value?
for me movements are very important because i want to see the image on the groundglass.
ofcourse one can crop later or also correct perspectives.
#
but in practice its another thing to work with the optical shifted image than to abstract the motif in thinking to correct perspectives
in post or to crop.
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Now that a Hasselblad H3DII 31 is only $12,995 (without lens) I was wondering what that or a similar back will go for. (New or better still used.)
It crossed my mind that I could buy a relatively modest 31 megapixel back and use it on my view camera with my 35mm Rodenstock Apo Grandagon and my 47MM Super Angulon XL. I'd use the sliding back movement to shoot several shots and stitch. I have a Linhof Technikardan 45S camera.
Now I've done a lot of stitching with Autopano, so I know that works well. But any opinions of using such a digital back with those lenses. Will the color shift too much? Is the lens resolution good enough? Other issues that I haven't thought of?
Thanks.
The 31MP backs have microlenses and are not recommended for shift work... Having said that, I don't know what happens if you do it anyway.
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The 31MP backs have microlenses and are not recommended for shift work... Having said that, I don't know what happens if you do it anyway.
Thanks. Well it would be good to know which specific backs might be best for this. If I buy used from a store, I might be able to try it out before committing - as long as it has a 4x5 adapter. I know that in the old days it was common to shoot several smaller digital images on an LF camera and stitch. (They made special backs to facilitate this.) All I'm thinking is making two or three shots, sliding the back each time. Produce maybe a 44mm by 70mm area of around 60 megapixels. That would be pretty wide on a 35mm Apo Grandagon. I know about color correcting via shooting through a diffuser. But I also figure that Autopano is pretty good at blending.
I've seen people stitch with the Cambo DS wides and other cameras, so there must be a way. I'm mostly wondering how well my current lenses will do.
I was thinking I could get pretty wide hi res results this way but it may be more trouble than it's worth. A 5DII on a pano head is probably easier. I bet that used 28 and 31 megapixel backs will be dirt cheap in a year or so. Maybe the 39 megapixel ones will not be too high by then either.
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I've seen people stitch with the Cambo DS wides and other cameras, so there must be a way. I'm mostly wondering how well my current lenses will do.
If you read related threads here and on getdpi, you will see that focusing any of these cameras is a real bear with a digital back. Hardly any of these cameras were made for it, and those which were, and which can reliably be focused, cost a fortune, like the gorgeous Sinar arTec. I am not sure if I would count on being able to use much of your existing kit. The tolerances are insane. Have you read the two recent articles by Joseph Holmes?
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html)
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html)
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I am not sure if I would count on being able to use much of your existing kit. The tolerances are insane. Have you read the two recent articles by Joseph Holmes?
Yeah I know. At the last Photo Expo I had a long discussion about it with the man from Linhof. I was looking over the Techno and 23mm Rodenstock. He kept telling me that my lenses and camera wouldn't be precise enough. But I'm not talking about one shot on a small area, I'm talking about stitching over a bigger image circle. I have had no problem focusing the Linhof with these lenses and the ground glass. Anyway, I'd shoot tethered and could refocus slightly until it is correct. That seems to be what a lot of people do anyway with wide lenses, or they scale focus them, examine the magnified image on the back and refocus.
I think what I'll do is set up my 5DII and focus a view camera lens onto it and see what the image looks like. I don't know what's the shortest lens that will work for this, but if my 90mm or 115mm Grandagon makes a really sharp image, I don't see why the others wouldn't work well on a larger digital back.
At some point, I'll get my hands on a back and try it out. I'm sure one of the MF dealers who calls me all the time will be glad to have the opportunity. This is just an experiment.
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largest problem with the techikardan l will be the parallelism of the front and rear standards.
in the time when i was working with the techikardan i adjusted them once in a while, but this cannot be done on a level precise enough. it will result that the right part of the image will not get exactly the same sharpness than the left part.
here you will find the real problems. independent how large you will make your image circle with stitching,
the unsharpness will increase with the size of the image, so there will be no benefit of covering a bigger area of the circle.
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largest problem with the techikardan l will be the parallelism of the front and rear standards.
in the time when i was working with the techikardan i adjusted them once in a while, but this cannot be done on a level precise enough. it will result that the right part of the image will not get exactly the same sharpness than the left part.
here you will find the real problems. independent how large you will make your image circle with stitching,
the unsharpness will increase with the size of the image, so there will be no benefit of covering a bigger area of the circle.
Thanks,
I figured this could be an issue. But why don't I see this on film? Is the resolution that much higher? Anyway, I wouldn't have to use the Technikardan. I could use the same sliding back and stitch principle on a rigid wide angle camera as long as it has a back that can shift. The idea is to get wider coverage and a higher pixel count without breaking the bank.
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I was looking over the Techno and 23mm Rodenstock.
I figured this could be an issue. But why don't I see this on film? Is the resolution that much higher? Anyway, I wouldn't have to use the Technikardan. I could use the same sliding back and stitch principle on a rigid wide angle camera as long as it has a back that can shift. The idea is to get wider coverage and a higher pixel count without breaking the bank.
If your primary concern is stitching I think there are better solutions than the Techno (though a nice camera).
Stitching based on movements of the back within the image circle of the (fixed) lens is more accurate.
For instance the Horseman SW-D II Pro, the Cambo WRS1000 (both without tilt) or the new ARCA-SWISS Rm3d have fixed lenses but the film plane can be shifted in 4 directions. The Alpa 12 Max or 12XY do the same (afaik) but in addition the lens panel can be shifted.
On such cameras as the ArTec or the Cambo WDS rise/fall movements are made with the lens while lateral movements are made with the back. Still better than movements solely with the lens if you don't want to stitch more than 2 captures.
As to the lenses... I'd say the smaller the pixels the more you will need digital LF lenses (Schneider Digitars or Rodenstock HR). While e.g. a P25 with its 9microns might be more forgiving a P45 with its 6.8microns is merciless at the edges even without movements - but especially with larger movements.
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Thanks.
Yeah when I was looking at the Techno, I wasn't thinking about stitching. I know I'd need to have a camera that has a good back shift. Right now I am doing this via a pano head and a 5DII into a planar stitch. And that may be the simplest way to go. I just have all this view camera gear (10 lenses) and was thinking of it as an option. Especially if I eventually can get a 22+ megapixel back at a low price. But I'll probably skip it and sell the LF gear.
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Have you heard of the quadstitch back ?
quad (http://www.kapturegroup.com/quad/quad.html)
(http://www.kapturegroup.com/quad_ana/quad_large.jpg)
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Have you heard of the quadstitch back ?
That company should know what will work and what won't. I checked it out and while it might be good for a still life shooter, it's too bulky and complicated for what I'd like to do.
I remember similar backs from when MF sensors first came out. That and the fact I've been using Autopano made me think I could simply do it with my Technikardan. I most likely will stitch just one horizontal row. Autopano doesn't require much precision, just some overlap.
Well I like experimenting so today I put the Technikardan on one tripod with a 75mm Super Angulon on it and the 5DII on another tripod via a sliding rail. I had no trouble focusing the image on the 5DII using magnified live view. I got a really sharp clear image and could control focus where I wanted even though the two cameras were not connected or even close to being accurately aligned. So I figure if I can do it with a 75, I could probably do it with a much shorter lens on an MF back that is actually attached to the camera. It would really be nice to have live view on the MF, but tethered or LCD review will let me check focus.
Here is the image of my very messy kitchen shot at f11 or 16 (best I recall.) And 100% crops. If a larger 22+ megapixel sensor works as well as the 5DII and give me a 48mmx72mm area (or wider) coverage from my 35mm and 47mm lenses, it will certainly work for me. This will easily put it in the 45 to 60 megapixel range using just three shots in a horizontal row.