Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Lust4Life on March 26, 2009, 08:03:49 am
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I am curious to hear from anyone that has had a chance to test out the new Hasselblad HTS unit.
Impressions?
DOF capabilities for landscape work?
Thanks,
Jack
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We have received our HTS two weeks ago and are very pleased with it!
Optical corrections (such as distortion) are pretty well handled. You should be aware that most of lenses that fit HTS (from 28mm to 100mm) show their limits in extreme tilting/shifting. Hasselblad advices working "ranges" where you should not be too far away.... We are using it today with the HC80mm and it does the job well! Except some vignetting that Phocus hardly handles as lens is extemely tilted.
One another thing: HTS implies a darker viewfinder (about 1,5 f/stops) that makes focusing tough (through viewfinder I mean...)
There are even predictable, conflicts between such high tech gear as HTS and common accessories like lens Proshade (see picture). Proshade can''t be fully extended as it comes right to the tilt knob! We can't blame Hasselblad for it as Proshade was designed years before HTS!
Let's see what kind of improvements will be brought by Hasselblad people to make Phocus and HTS a perfect weapon! ;-)
roonie
PS: Forgive my poor quality pictures... Cellphones are far away from MF quality! ;-)
[attachment=12497:DSC00093.JPG]
[attachment=12498:DSC00094.JPG]
[attachment=12499:DSC00095.jpg]
[attachment=12500:DSC00096.jpg]
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We have received our HTS two weeks ago and are very pleased with it!
This is good news for all H users. Even if the HTS remains a rental item and not a purchase item.
I still yearn for the HS model, which would allow shift only, and would sell for $2495.
Another option, much cheaper, would be what I used yesterday for a panorama, which was the RRS Pano Head along with AutoStitch function of CS4 Photoshop. AutoStitch CS4 is mindblowingly accurate. For me, RRS ($360), plus CS4 Upgrade ($199), was much cheaper than HTS ($5400).
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A note-worthy feature, that has not been mentioned, is the ability to drive the focus of the lens, with the HTS attached, via the focus drive controls within Phocus. Considering the HTS disables auto-focus operation via the camera, this focus control in a tethered configuration provides some help for those using the HTS for indoor / product / still life work.
Jack, as you might already know, the HTS has been shipping for some time now. We have quite a few, extremely happy users, including H3DII-Series as well as H1/2 camera users. As roonie has mentioned, you can introduce some vignetting with both shift and tilt at maximum. However, I find most users do not have the need for both maximum tilt, in conjunction with maximum shift (or vise-versa).
The HVM waist-level finder can sometimes help improve the viewfinder image when using the HTS, allowing for a slightly brighter and sharper image. The HVM can present issues in composing with the camera, but it has become a more valuable accessory to go along with the HTS.
I will put some sample images together, showing the range of movement that is possible with HTS 1.5, HC-D 28mm, and H3DII-50 (the same would apply for the 22MP and 39MP systems as well). These images will strictly show the movement range (shift and tilt), and will not be a basis for judging sharpness.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
[quote name='roonie' date='Mar 26 2009, 09:54 AM' post='271092']
We have received our HTS two weeks ago and are very pleased with it!
Optical corrections (such as distortion) are pretty well handled. You should be aware that most of lenses that fit HTS (from 28mm to 100mm) show their limits in extreme tilting/shifting. Hasselblad advices working "ranges" where you should not be too far away.... We are using it today with the HC80mm and it does the job well! Except some vignetting that Phocus hardly handles as lens is extemely tilted.
One another thing: HTS implies a darker viewfinder (about 1,5 f/stops) that makes focusing tough (through viewfinder I mean...)
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I'm an H2/Leaf shooter. Other than the advantages that the Phocus/DAC software might bring, is there any reason why I couldn't use it for architectural?
Thanks,
Don
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A note-worthy feature, that has not been mentioned, is the ability to drive the focus of the lens, with the HTS attached, via the focus drive controls within Phocus. Considering the HTS disables auto-focus operation via the camera, this focus control in a tethered configuration provides some help for those using the HTS for indoor / product / still life work.
Yes you're right about it but Phocus requires so much hardware ressources and refresh rate on LV is so low that focusing is real pain!
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I'm an H2/Leaf shooter. Other than the advantages that the Phocus/DAC software might bring, is there any reason why I couldn't use it for architectural?
Thanks,
Don
We also use the HCD28mm with HTS (not for architectural I must admit) but it takes real power from DAC corrections!
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I'm an H2/Leaf shooter. Other than the advantages that the Phocus/DAC software might bring, is there any reason why I couldn't use it for architectural?
Thanks,
Don
It will not work as the HTS only works with h3d and H2f with cf back.
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This is a quote from David Grover from Hasselblad in a previous thread on the HTS to an H2 owner:
"Yes, you can fit the HTS to your body and Phase Back. It is not exclusive to H3D models."
Then we have a winner: you can't use the 28 with a phase or leaf back but the combination will work. Yep, go for it.
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The Hasselblad HTS 1.5 is compatible with the entire H-Series camera platform. This includes the H1 and H2 with Leaf, PhaseOne, Sinar, and film backs. There several advantages that can be realized with using the HTS with the H3DII and/or H2F with a CF-Series back (DAC, metadata, Ultra-Focus, etc.). If you look, the most recent Hasselblad firmware update, specific to the H-Series bodies, (ie. 081222.hbf) is adding the necessary HTS support for the various H-Series bodies (ie. H1, H2, H2F, H1D, H2D, H3D, H3DII).
Regards,
Jordan Miller
It will not work as the HTS only works with h3d and H2f with cf back.
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This is good news for all H users. Even if the HTS remains a rental item and not a purchase item.
I still yearn for the HS model, which would allow shift only, and would sell for $2495.
Another option, much cheaper, would be what I used yesterday for a panorama, which was the RRS Pano Head along with AutoStitch function of CS4 Photoshop. AutoStitch CS4 is mindblowingly accurate. For me, RRS ($360), plus CS4 Upgrade ($199), was much cheaper than HTS ($5400).
It depends, effectively, what kind of use you give to HTS!
We bought HTS because we think that digital high end cameras (like H series) combined with a T/S solution (like HTS or dedicated lenses like Nikkor PC-E or Hartblei/Phase one gear) are the next step in digital evolution! (for still life and architectural photographers I mean.....)
Switching to this solution made us "throwing out" our old Sinar P! ;-)
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Attached are a series of images showing the full shift range of the HTS, in conjunction with the HC-D 28mm, and the H3DII-50 (36x48mm sensor). Bear in mind, these were quick, tripod mounted images that were shot to give an accurate representation of "shift" movement found in the HTS. It is worth noting, no lens hood/flag was used, so please excuse flare evident in the image(s).
I will post a few more examples later today. I do not have images representing every possible configuration of movements, so feel free to manipulate these images to help better understand the possible movements and image coverage.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
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Is it me, or does it seem that the main issue here, (that everyone is subtlely hinting at), is focus with this device?
Are there ways that you could get yourself into trouble here, with focus, if movements are too extreme?
Or am I even hearing more concerns with just focus in general, even when it's not in extreme movements?
Remember in the old days, when there were those 1.5 bad tele-extenders, and they had an awful piece of glass in them, and you'd take those good Nikon lenses, and combine them with that funky glass in the tele-extenders, and the results would be mush? It's sorta that same thing I'm hearing here, in the way people talk about this device. Not that the glass is bad, but that something is just not adding up.
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GBPhoto,
The image was leveled at the tripod head (leveling base, spirit level), and the head (ARCA-SWISS C1 Cube) was then adjusted to bring the left-hand (stone wall) and right-hand vertical lines (hotel and flagpole in the distance) straight, while maintaining the levels on the head. The camera position was fixed, in this position, for all images. I am not sure if this answers you question(s), but let me know if this helps.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Is the camera tilted up in this example? The zero'd image shows the center of frame well above camera height. It's kind of hard to tell which lines are really vertical in this scene. (not criticizing, thanks for the example - just trying to get a handle on what's going on here...)
[attachment=12507:HTS_LL_HCD28_Edit.jpg]
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Thanks everyone. I guess my point/question is. Aside from the arguments about the quality of digital large format lenses, and possibly some other LF features, with the introduction of this product I can accomplish essentially the same thing that I could with an Alpa, Cambo, or other large format solution with a Leaf back?
Thanks,
Don
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Is it me, or does it seem that the main issue here, (that everyone is subtlely hinting at), is focus with this device?
Are there ways that you could get yourself into trouble here, with focus, if movements are too extreme?
Or am I even hearing more concerns with just focus in general, even when it's not in extreme movements?
Remember in the old days, when there were those 1.5 bad tele-extenders, and they had an awful piece of glass in them, and you'd take those good Nikon lenses, and combine them with that funky glass in the tele-extenders, and the results would be mush? It's sorta that same thing I'm hearing here, in the way people talk about this device. Not that the glass is bad, but that something is just not adding up.
I do think focus is a serious issue if you are using the HTS untethered in low light, and I am not satisfied at this point how effective the HTS is for landscape work. If you are able to shoot tethered with Live View in Phocus, no problem, I am told(so far).
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Then we have a winner: you can't use the 28 with a phase or leaf back but the combination will work. Yep, go for it.
Nope, the 28 and HTS combo doesn't work on an H2; you get the same error as when trying to use the H2 and 28mm without the HTS. The other HTS supported lenses- which aren't HCD lenses- do work on an H2, but without use of the light meter nor indication on the body display of the HTS settings, in addition to the other limitations found on the H2D, H3D and H2F.
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Is it me, or does it seem that the main issue here, (that everyone is subtlely hinting at), is focus with this device?
Are there ways that you could get yourself into trouble here, with focus, if movements are too extreme?
Or am I even hearing more concerns with just focus in general, even when it's not in extreme movements?
Remember in the old days, when there were those 1.5 bad tele-extenders, and they had an awful piece of glass in them, and you'd take those good Nikon lenses, and combine them with that funky glass in the tele-extenders, and the results would be mush? It's sorta that same thing I'm hearing here, in the way people talk about this device. Not that the glass is bad, but that something is just not adding up.
Worry not George.
There seems to be no discernable loss of quality due to the extra glass, users have found this to be the case with the 1.7X extender. More glass doesn't seem to always equate to lower quality.
I don't think it's that hard to focus, I did some shots at 'kina focussing with modelling bulbs and was able to nail focus on the eyes with a fair bit of tilt:
[attachment=12513:Kina_0002.jpg]
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GBPhoto,
Thanks for looking into this with such detail. I did in fact mislabel the images, as you suspected. My mistake in pulling the images, I had not carefully double checked the metadata (ie. HTS settings) with the actual image composition. The image(s) has since been correctly labeled, along with exact HTS values (derived from the metadata) as they are recorded (note the order of these values has changed).
I will have some additional samples soon, and will be sure to double check the metadata before labeling. That does bring up a good point, that in our case here, I HAVE the metadata to refer!
I would certainly suggest any one interested in the HTS, to contact your preferred dealer and set up a hands-on demo. The practical use of this new product really helps to appreciate the features.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Are the first two images mislabeled? (0, +6mm, +15mm?)
[attachment=12511:HTS_LL_HCD28_Edit2.jpg]
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Attached is another sample image, re-sized appropriately, to show the level of vignetting introduced at full shift (17.7mm-18mm), without tilt. What is interesting, is when this same configuration is only shifted +/-15mm, as apposed to the full 17-18mm, this slight vignetting is completely eliminated. This allows for an ideal image composition for multi-image stitching. To clarify, the configuration used for this image is as follows:
H3DII-50 (36x48mm sensor)
HC-D 28mm f/4
HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift Adapter
Regards,
Jordan Miller
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Attached is another sample image, re-sized appropriately, to show the level of vignetting introduced at full shift (17.7mm-18mm), without tilt. What is interesting, is when this same configuration is only shifted +/-15mm, as apposed to the full 17-18mm, this slight vignetting is completely eliminated. This allows for an ideal image composition for multi-image stitching. To clarify, the configuration used for this image is as follows:
H3DII-50 (36x48mm sensor)
HC-D 28mm f/4
HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift Adapter
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
Nice Jordan, now all they need is to straighten that building's walls:-) Any chance you can have a word with the architect?
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As a new member I should introduce myself, I shoot a range of commercial subjects, based in Leeds, England.
I hired the HTS adapter for a couple of days to test with my H1 and a couple of Phase backs (P25+, P45+). I was interested mainly in how useful it was in the studio so didn't really test shifts with architectural and interior subjects. I'm not sure how useful the 35mm lens is in this context given the adapter magnifies 1.5x.
The adapter worked fine once the H1 was upgraded to the latest firmware and I was able to confirm it was useable for me with the 80mm including with extension tubes, although this restricts the useable image circle. The limitations I found were that the maximum tilt was not suffiicient to get the plane of focus laid flat when shooting close in and obviously the shift and tilt can't be at 90 deg. to each other.
The images processed fine in C1 4.6.3 with a lens cast correction. Attached is a quick test of a (worn and dusty) watch with the P25+, 80mm plus extension, f16, tilt with rotation, soft look sharpening in C1. Quick and dirty removal of a reflector in PS, plus curves tweak.
Tony May
www.tonymayimages.com
[attachment=12547:Tilt_6291.jpg]
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Thanks for sharing the experience Tony.
Its good to see the HTS getting lots of use. The few that are in hire at the Pro Centre are out 24/7.
Best,
David
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Thanks for sharing the experience Tony.
Its good to see the HTS getting lots of use. The few that are in hire at the Pro Centre are out 24/7.
Best,
David
Mr. Grover,
You're a big boy and all, and I'm sure not telling you how to run your bidness, but Tony's illustration above makes my point, that the uses for Tilt are radically different from the uses for Shift.
A Shifty Guy might never need to tilt, and a Tilty Guy might only be looking for increased depth of field. Two completely different uses; two completely different kinds of photographers. Having that HTS unit do both Tilt and Shift is like Black & Decker coming out with a Cuisinart that also has a Welding Attachment.
Tilty is for Still Life, and Shifty is for the Landscape and Advertising Guys, who need to delivery massive files, and plenty of bleed.
I propose the Hasselblad HS, for $2495, (or $1995), that Shifts only.
The goal here is for a Regular Photographer to be able to buy one of those things for his own studio, instead of selling one each of those HTS to every Rental House in the world, and that be the end of it.
I know you want to stay in your Closed Universe, but face the fact that there are a zillion guys out there, using H1 or H2 bodies with Phase backs, that might want to buy this thing. We don't care about all the software fixes in Hocus Phocus. We just want to shift and tilt.
Just a constructive suggestion.
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Mr. Grover,
You're a big boy and all, and I'm sure not telling you how to run your bidness, but Tony's illustration above makes my point, that the uses for Tilt are radically different from the uses for Shift.
A Shifty Guy might never need to tilt, and a Tilty Guy might only be looking for increased depth of field. Two completely different uses; two completely different kinds of photographers. Having that HTS unit do both Tilt and Shift is like Black & Decker coming out with a Cuisinart that also has a Welding Attachment.
Tilty is for Still Life, and Shifty is for the Landscape and Advertising Guys, who need to delivery massive files, and plenty of bleed.
I propose the Hasselblad HS, for $2495, (or $1995), that Shifts only.
The goal here is for a Regular Photographer to be able to buy one of those things for his own studio, instead of selling one each of those HTS to every Rental House in the world, and that be the end of it.
I know you want to stay in your Closed Universe, but face the fact that there are a zillion guys out there, using H1 or H2 bodies with Phase backs, that might want to buy this thing. We don't care about all the software fixes in Hocus Phocus. We just want to shift and tilt.
Just a constructive suggestion.
Dear Mr Whitford,
Fair enough.
Do you think removing one axis would halve the cost of production? Do you think having two different products would also make production cheaper?
Contrary to popular belief there are lots of *Regular Photographers* buying them for their studios, with orders continuing to come. (More than the 8 originally suggested. )
Would not shift (agreed not as much as tilt) be useful in the studio as well?
Once again, there is no problem with Phase / Leaf / Sinar systems using the HTS on an H1 or H2, so I am not sure I understand the last comment? The last postee's shot was produced with a Phase One.
Tilty is for Still Life, and Shifty is for the Landscape and Advertising Guys, who need to delivery massive files, and plenty of bleed.
That's a helluva generalisation. What about photographers who have a broad perspective of work?
David
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Mr. Grover,
You're a big boy and all, and I'm sure not telling you how to run your bidness, but Tony's illustration above makes my point, that the uses for Tilt are radically different from the uses for Shift.
A Shifty Guy might never need to tilt, and a Tilty Guy might only be looking for increased depth of field. Two completely different uses; two completely different kinds of photographers. Having that HTS unit do both Tilt and Shift is like Black & Decker coming out with a Cuisinart that also has a Welding Attachment.
Tilty is for Still Life, and Shifty is for the Landscape and Advertising Guys, who need to delivery massive files, and plenty of bleed.
I propose the Hasselblad HS, for $2495, (or $1995), that Shifts only.
The goal here is for a Regular Photographer to be able to buy one of those things for his own studio, instead of selling one each of those HTS to every Rental House in the world, and that be the end of it.
I know you want to stay in your Closed Universe, but face the fact that there are a zillion guys out there, using H1 or H2 bodies with Phase backs, that might want to buy this thing. We don't care about all the software fixes in Hocus Phocus. We just want to shift and tilt.
Just a constructive suggestion.
David,
Keep smiling. I am sure on day Phase One will one day have a body and a set of leaf lenses and their own version of the HTS. In the meantime all you will hear is why doesn't my Phase One back work as well on the Hasselblad bodies as a Hasselblad back type whine. If I were Hasselblad I wouldn't spend one second worrying about users who have piggy backed on the Hasselblad body and lens system whilst using someone else's back. The sheer arrogance of the notion that Hasselblad R&D should also incorporate what non Hasselblad patchwork quilt workflows may or may not need is of course totally ridiculous. I haven't made up my mind about the HTS - still it seems to be an excellent work around for both studio product and still life type work as well as certain landscape /architectural applications. Wether a dedicated view camera or a Sinar arTec may be a better choice for me as opposed to the HTS flexibility is my business and my concern- Hasselblad cant be expected to do all things for all people. I suggest that Hasselblad continues along the closed system path and let the results speak for themselves.
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Keep smiling. I am sure on day Phase One will one day have a body and a set of leaf lenses and their own version of the HTS.
In the meantime all you will hear is why doesn't my Phase One back work as well on the Hasselblad bodies as a Hasselblad back type whine. If I were Hasselblad I wouldn't spend one second worrying about users who have piggy backed on the Hasselblad body and lens system whilst using someone else's back.
Mr Peter A,
Take a deep breath. I was just kidding around with H.S. Grover there.
And Phase One already has their version of the HTS. It sells for about $495 from Ukraine. (Oops, slight typo there -- it used to sell for $495; now it sells for three thousand since they scratched off the Hartblei logo, and glued on the Phase One logo).
And I don't hear any whine over here, about using the Phase back and their excellent software. I've yet to find one Digital Tech that knows and uses Phocus software in advertising jobs in New York. I'm sure they're out there, maybe a few in Los Angeles. But it does make you wonder -- all those Techs out there using Capture One, when there's money on the table and the pressure on, and almost a total shun of Phocus. It just tells you something. So no -- no regrets in going with the Phase solution.
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Mr Peter A,
Take a deep breath. I was just kidding around with H.S. Grover there.
And Phase One already has their version of the HTS. It sells for about $495 from Ukraine. (Oops, slight typo there -- it used to sell for $495; now it sells for three thousand since they scratched off the Hartblei logo, and glued on the Phase One logo).
And I don't hear any whine over here, about using the Phase back and their excellent software. I've yet to find one Digital Tech that knows and uses Phocus software in advertising jobs in New York. I'm sure they're out there, maybe a few in Los Angeles. But it does make you wonder -- all those Techs out there using Capture One, when there's money on the table and the pressure on, and almost a total shun of Phocus. It just tells you something. So no -- no regrets in going with the Phase solution.
All in good sport, Sir.
Not forgetting the other 194 countries in the world, different markets often aren't aware of, or use the 'Digital Tech' phenomenon. So Just because NYC has a higher market penetration of Phase One products does not necessarily indicate the norm across the planet.
Oh, and thanks for mentioning the Hartblei.
David
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[quote name='David Grover / Hasselblad' date='Mar 29 2009, 01:25 PM' post='271745']
All in good sport, Sir.
Not forgetting the other 194 countries in the world, different markets often aren't aware of, or use the 'Digital Tech' phenomenon. So Just because NYC has a higher market penetration of Phase One products does not necessarily indicate the norm across the planet.
Oh, and thanks for mentioning the Hartblei.
David
[/quote
how true, the whole digital tech thing is not common in europe for example and it only tells that those guys try to make their life easy by using and understanding one software.
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Mr Peter A,
Take a deep breath. I was just kidding around with H.S. Grover there.
And Phase One already has their version of the HTS. It sells for about $495 from Ukraine. (Oops, slight typo there -- it used to sell for $495; now it sells for three thousand since they scratched off the Hartblei logo, and glued on the Phase One logo).
And I don't hear any whine over here, about using the Phase back and their excellent software. I've yet to find one Digital Tech that knows and uses Phocus software in advertising jobs in New York. I'm sure they're out there, maybe a few in Los Angeles. But it does make you wonder -- all those Techs out there using Capture One, when there's money on the table and the pressure on, and almost a total shun of Phocus. It just tells you something. So no -- no regrets in going with the Phase solution.
I am glad you were only joking. I am glad that you are also happy with the $495 Hartblei or the hand selected better versions ..! -
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I am glad you were only joking. I am glad that you are also happy with the $495 Hartblei or the hand selected better versions ..! -
I was looking for some old stock photos to try to show the difference between the Vodka Hartblei, and the HTS Hasselblad unit. I found an old photo of Fred Sanford and his junker pickup truck to illustrate the Hartblei, and then tried to find a James Bond special-edition BMW to illustrate the HTS, but then I saw something shiny out the window, and got distracted. But you get my point.
That's why I don't fully understand Phase One getting so chummy with Mamiya -- it's like some Supermodel hitting on that Steve Forty-Year-Old-Virgin guy. Phase has such a sterling reputation, and then they choose Sammy The Schlub to go to the Ball with. Does not make sense, in terms of branding. But I guess when Sammy is the only girl left in the bar, you just do a couple of shots of Jack, grit your teeth, reach for the paper bag, straighten your collar, and then try out your best Pick Up line to get her in the car with you. The bar's about the close and there's no one else left in the room.
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I was looking for some old stock photos to try to show the difference between the Vodka Hartblei, and the HTS Hasselblad unit. I found an old photo of Fred Sanford and his junker pickup truck to illustrate the Hartblei, and then tried to find a James Bond special-edition BMW to illustrate the HTS, but then I saw something shiny out the window, and got distracted. But you get my point.
That's why I don't fully understand Phase One getting so chummy with Mamiya -- it's like some Supermodel hitting on that Steve Thirty-Year-Old-Virgin guy. Phase has such a sterling reputation, and then they choose Sammy The Schlub to go to the Ball with. Does not make sense, in terms of branding. But I guess when Sammy is the only girl left in the bar, you just do a couple of shots of Jack, grit your teeth, reach for the paper bag, straighten your collar, and then try out your best Pick Up line to get her in the car with you. The bar's about the close and there's no one left in the room.
Simple story too many back makers...surviving on high margins paid for by a long running high growth economic era of unprecedented proportions. All manufacturers are boutique companies running on the smell of an oily rag competing against 35mm land where to be frank apart from niche areas - there is no competitive advantage in the tech. Pro photographers are the worst people to listen to regarding setting company strategy. Hasselblad is 'lucky' they actually committed resources to the Fujiblad line of lenses and bodies when they could afford to do so - compared to all the otheres - and I own and use all of them - it is by far the best line up of product. Of course not pefect.
Now economic outlook is changed and consolidation in the industry will be forced. We will be lucky to end up with three manufacturers in the end.
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I was looking for some old stock photos to try to show the difference between the Vodka Hartblei, and the HTS Hasselblad unit. I found an old photo of Fred Sanford and his junker pickup truck to illustrate the Hartblei, and then tried to find a James Bond special-edition BMW to illustrate the HTS, but then I saw something shiny out the window, and got distracted. But you get my point.
That's why I don't fully understand Phase One getting so chummy with Mamiya -- it's like some Supermodel hitting on that Steve Forty-Year-Old-Virgin guy. Phase has such a sterling reputation, and then they choose Sammy The Schlub to go to the Ball with. Does not make sense, in terms of branding. But I guess when Sammy is the only girl left in the bar, you just do a couple of shots of Jack, grit your teeth, reach for the paper bag, straighten your collar, and then try out your best Pick Up line to get her in the car with you. The bar's about the close and there's no one else left in the room.
Mark Tucker would love this.
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If I were Hasselblad I wouldn't spend one second worrying about users who have piggy backed on the Hasselblad body and lens system whilst using someone else's back. The sheer arrogance of the notion that Hasselblad R&D should also incorporate what non Hasselblad patchwork quilt workflows may or may not need is of course totally ridiculous. I
I don't want to get too distracted from the "how good/useful is it?" theme but don't forget that many people bought into the H system when Hasselblad was marketing it as an open digital platform for backs including Phase One and we are now stuck with a foot in each of two different camps. So talk of "piggy backing" is a bit inaccurate in my book.
Tony
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I am one of those described below and I'm not piggy backing on any camera system. I've been a very long time Hasselblad user, loved my 503CS and the Hassy Flex Body. When I shifted to digital I bought the Phase one P25, then 45, then 45+ along with the excellent Hasselblad H2 system and lenses. I am stuck in each camp loyal to both companies and their products and at the mercy of corporate decisions. I turned down the chance to sell my Hasselblad system to opt for the new Phase One system of camera and lenses. So I love my Phase back along with my H2 system and remain (happily) stuck with both companies as long as my discontinued H2 and a back up H2 body lasts. Such is the life. Eleanor
many people bought into the H system when Hasselblad was marketing it as an open digital platform for backs including Phase One and we are now stuck with a foot in each of two different camps. So talk of "piggy backing" is a bit inaccurate in my book.
Tony
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As a new member I should introduce myself, I shoot a range of commercial subjects, based in Leeds, England.
I hired the HTS adapter for a couple of days to test with my H1 and a couple of Phase backs (P25+, P45+). I was interested mainly in how useful it was in the studio so didn't really test shifts with architectural and interior subjects. I'm not sure how useful the 35mm lens is in this context given the adapter magnifies 1.5x.
The adapter worked fine once the H1 was upgraded to the latest firmware and I was able to confirm it was useable for me with the 80mm including with extension tubes, although this restricts the useable image circle. The limitations I found were that the maximum tilt was not suffiicient to get the plane of focus laid flat when shooting close in and obviously the shift and tilt can't be at 90 deg. to each other.
The images processed fine in C1 4.6.3 with a lens cast correction. Attached is a quick test of a (worn and dusty) watch with the P25+, 80mm plus extension, f16, tilt with rotation, soft look sharpening in C1. Quick and dirty removal of a reflector in PS, plus curves tweak.
Tony May
www.tonymayimages.com
[attachment=12547:Tilt_6291.jpg]
Tony,
Welcome! How much tilt did you need to get this? Am I looking at downsized image or a crop? I am trying to figure out to what extend the HTS could replace use of my X-act2. I just noticed I probably missed your post but Eleanors post kicked the thread right up
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Tony,
Welcome! How much tilt did you need to get this? Am I looking at downsized image or a crop? I am trying to figure out to what extend the HTS could replace use of my X-act2. I just noticed I probably missed your post but Eleanors post kicked the thread right up
Hi Ray
I have my HTS finally and am loving it, seems like every shot needs it now. What did you want to know?
Nick-T
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I would like to know whether I can sell my X-act2 or put it into the moth balls
I love using the X-act but in many cases it is simply a bit of overkill where I just need that bit of tilt. I assume there is enough tilt available to extend DoF to get larger items from a bit more distance into adequate focus (stuff up to tables and such). I wonder if there is enough tilt to get it for smaller items as well. Would the HTS be sufficient to get most of a stack of rings in focus?
Is the focus plane easy enough to see and follow?
If the HTS is much easier in use, I will definitely only use the X-act in cases where I want to toy around or when someone wants something special and doesn' mind paying for it
I am afraid I can already feel the pain in my wallet. (please don't get me excited about the new zoom too or start mentioning a CF60MS ).
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I would like to know whether I can sell my X-act2 or put it into the moth balls
I love using the X-act but in many cases it is simply a bit of overkill where I just need that bit of tilt. I assume there is enough tilt available to extend DoF to get larger items from a bit more distance into adequate focus (stuff up to tables and such). I wonder if there is enough tilt to get it for smaller items as well. Would the HTS be sufficient to get most of a stack of rings in focus?
Is the focus plane easy enough to see and follow?
If the HTS is much easier in use, I will definitely only use the X-act in cases where I want to toy around or when someone wants something special and doesn' mind paying for it
I am afraid I can already feel the pain in my wallet. (please don't get me excited about the new zoom too or start mentioning a CF60MS ).
Well the X-act is a lovely piece of kit.. Do you need rear movements? Are you ok with tilt and shift being in the same plane?
I've got some jewellery to do this week so I'll be better able to answer the ring question. So far there is plenty enough tilt for me but I'm still finding my way with it. I find it pretty easy to use and focus with the viewfinder. The distortion corrections are amazing (I know I go on about them) but I did a test with a big tilt/shift shooting a grid and it snapped right back in, get a demo! Oh and wait 'til you see the screen on the 60
Nick-T
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sssttttt.....
I like using rear movements over front movement anytime but I think I can learn to live with using them less. In many cases I only need tilt or shift but when I have to do front movement I will use shift as well especially in the same plane to get my items back into my finder
Please, let me know about the jewelry shoot. This is typically the kind of thing that I had in mind.
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How much tilt did you need to get this? Am I looking at downsized image or a crop?
Hi
From memory and a few notes, I think this used the maximum tilt of around 10 degrees and the HTS unit was rotated a little. Its a crop of about 60% height and 90% width of the full frame. It was shot at f16 on an 80mm lens with a 26mm (I think) extension tube. Although I didn't have it very long and I don't consider myself an expert user of movements, I seemed to run out of tilt at close focusing distances with subjects laid horizontal - hence f16 rather than any larger aperture.
Hope this helps
Tony
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Nick, what lenses are you using with your HTS...anything besides the 28? Have you done any serious pixel peeping comparing a shot done with and without the HTS to see what the compromises are at say 100%? /Thanks, eleanor
Hi Ray
I have my HTS finally and am loving it, seems like every shot needs it now. What did you want to know?
Nick-T
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Nick, what lenses are you using with your HTS...anything besides the 28? Have you done any serious pixel peeping comparing a shot done with and without the HTS to see what the compromises are at say 100%? /Thanks, eleanor
Hi Eleanor I'm mostly using it in studio with the 80MM at the moment. And no I'm not a hard core pixel peeper, so far results look fine, I'll see if I can find the time to do some before and afters.
Nick-T
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I've been patiently waiting for someone to address the question in my original post for this thread:
"DOF capabilities for landscape work?"
I shoot landscape - used to shoot 4x5 and made extensive use of Tilt to increase my DOF far beyond just stopping down.
The Tilt feature of the 4x5, along with an occasional use of Rise, is what I'm trying to replicate in the digital world.
I was hoping the HTS would allow me to make use of the expensive lenses I have for my H3DII-39, rather than going the Arca Rm3D route requiring a whole new investment in lenses, let alone having to remove my digital back from the H3DII body.
Thus, back to the original question - anyone use the HTS in Landscape shots to increase DOF successfully?
Jack
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I've been patiently waiting for someone to address the question in my original post for this thread:
"DOF capabilities for landscape work?"
I shoot landscape - used to shoot 4x5 and made extensive use of Tilt to increase my DOF far beyond just stopping down.
The Tilt feature of the 4x5, along with an occasional use of Rise, is what I'm trying to replicate in the digital world.
I was hoping the HTS would allow me to make use of the expensive lenses I have for my H3DII-39, rather than going the Arca Rm3D route requiring a whole new investment in lenses, let alone having to remove my digital back from the H3DII body.
Thus, back to the original question - anyone use the HTS in Landscape shots to increase DOF successfully?
Jack
Hi Jack,
A few degrees tilt can make a lot of difference but it does depend hugely on the kind of DOF increase you are after. Yes, you could manipulate the DOF to essentially increase it front to back. but at the risk of losing focus if you had any objects at infinity at the top of the frame. (ie tall trees maybe?)
Really the only way to satisfy your needs is to get hold of an HTS for a few days and see if it works in the field for you.
David
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Really the only way to satisfy your needs is to get hold of an HTS for a few days and see if it works in the field for you.
Mr G:
Can you confirm this for me?
I use an H2 with Phase back. So that means, the widest lens I can use is the 35mm? Not the 28?
So if I stick on a 35, and then mount the HTS with 1.5, then that means that my widest lens then is about a 50mm, (which is a 35 multiplied times 1.5)?
And, I lose autofocus with the HTS? Is there focus confirmation light or anything in the viewfinder, when using the HTS, even with autofocus disabled?
Do you see it that way?
Thanks.
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I use the HTS with my H2 and P45+ back using 35,50,80, and 100 lenses). Quality is excellent..I"m impressed. Focus is another story and it takes a learning curve. Viewfinder is dimmed and there is no focus confirmation. You need good vision, eyepiece diopter set exactly and you will learn what kind of subject matter will be easiest to focus on. Objects with some contrast are best and if so, it is possible to focus in somewhat dim light. I have some sample images on the dpi forum that I uploaded. (am I allowed to mention another forum here??) Eleanor
Mr G:
Can you confirm this for me?
I use an H2 with Phase back. So that means, the widest lens I can use is the 35mm? Not the 28?
So if I stick on a 35, and then mount the HTS with 1.5, then that means that my widest lens then is about a 50mm, (which is a 35 multiplied times 1.5)?
And, I lose autofocus with the HTS? Is there focus confirmation light or anything in the viewfinder, when using the HTS, even with autofocus disabled?
Do you see it that way?
Thanks.
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I use the HTS with my H2 and P45+ back using 35,50,80, and 100 lenses). Quality is excellent..I"m impressed. Focus is another story and it takes a learning curve. Viewfinder is dimmed and there is no focus confirmation. You need good vision, eyepiece diopter set exactly and you will learn what kind of subject matter will be easiest to focus on. Objects with some contrast are best and if so, it is possible to focus in somewhat dim light. I have some sample images on the dpi forum that I uploaded. (am I allowed to mention another forum here??) Eleanor
Thank you. The HTS is becoming less and less appealing, the more I learn about it. Especially at $5200.00.
Although for a still life guy in a studio, or an architectural guy shooting tethered, (using a complete Hassie system with the 28), it might be a good solution.
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I looked at it for arch. work. I was really interested in the auto distortion correction and tilt/shift info in metadata.
Until I saw that:
28 X 1.5 = 42mm ≠ wide angle
tilt/shift metadata is not present in non-Hasselblad backs
Hassy HTS @ $5k+
Alpa + wides @ $10k+
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adds up to NO-GO for architecture
Conversely, after several months of constant use, the HTS works quite well for me and my style of shooting architecture. I use it consistently on every shoot and am glad to have it in my arsenal of tools. It has it's place.
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Conversely, after several months of constant use, the HTS works quite well for me and my style of shooting architecture. I use it consistently on every shoot and am glad to have it in my arsenal of tools. It has it's place.
I wondered, "Maybe with the HTS, you orient the body into Vertical, to get more coverage, and then pan left and right, and stitch"? If you're limited to the 35 (or 28) lens. But I'd hate the think that every frame I shot, I had to stitch later.
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But I'd hate the think that every frame I shot, I had to stitch later.
That's the nice thing about a tech camera - you see the entire image as a whole on the groundglass (or roughly in a finder) and then just shoot it in two pieces. Photoshops merger will stitch the two pieces very well. Have a coffee while Photoshop is doing it...
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But I'd hate the think that every frame I shot, I had to stitch later.
Large file do slow down even the fastest computers - do we have to invent a workflow that allows us to do each stage of the process on a different computer, on a giganet?
I suppose it would be easy to do raw on one computer, and PS on another... does anyone do that?
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The answer always seems to be: spend more money -- and you'll still have to compromise or buy yet another system for a particular purpose.
Anyway, I have been keenly interested in the HTS for jewelry and gems for paying projects.
For personal use, I would love to use it for landscapes, but with the 1.5 factor that pretty much means I'll be stitching.
I would likely never use the shift, and only want the tilt for DOF flexibility.
I'm left a little frustrated that nothing is ever just the way one would want it.
Nikon has three new PC-E lenses that are purportedly quite good. That sounds great for using tilt on landscapes, but I would rather not fuss with stitching unless I need a really large file so when I heard about the HTS I thought "this is great, at a time when so many are moving away from MF, I have a reason to go towards it."
But then the reality is that the HTS adds a 1.5 cropping factor to focal length -- which means your wide lenses won't be wide anymore.
Am I alone in thinking, well, if I'm going to be stitching anyway why not save the $30,000.00 and just do it with my Nikon?
Admittedly, I don't even know if it is possible, but since the HTS is actually a lens rather than just a mechanical device between lens and back, and has something like six elements, why not have the optical geniuses figure out a way to eliminate the cropping factor? Or is that a necessary evil to make the image circle large enough to keep the sensor covered whilst engaging the movements? I'm sure that it, but can't a guy dream?
And I understand that the economies of scale are small for this product and you want to charge $5K a pop to recoup your R&D expenses, but I'm sure you would sell many more if you split the shift and tilt and cut the price in half. Sure, some shooters may need both, but if they need both they can buy both and still be at the same outlay in costs, but for those of us who only need one or the other, you'll likely rope us in instead of relegating this to the rental market. Surely you'll make more money selling them to more than just the rental market and a few high-end commercial shooters? Alas, I'm sure the cost is in the optics so it will never happen. Pity.
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For personal use, I would love to use it for landscapes, but with the 1.5 factor that pretty much means I'll be stitching.
I would likely never use the shift, and only want the tilt for DOF flexibility.
If you were going to stitch, shift enables you to "shift-and-stitch" instead of "pan-and-stitch" (if you have the spare image circle), so you lose no pixels through cropping after correcting the perspective, and you lose no res through distortion. You may want to shift in one direction and tilt in the other.
You might be able to use the HTS to shift-and-stitch and end up with the same image angle of view (as with the prime lens), but with more pixels.
I'm left a little frustrated that nothing is ever just the way one would want it.
Admittedly, I don't even know if it is possible, but since the HTS is actually a lens rather than just a mechanical device between lens and back, and has something like six elements, why not have the optical geniuses figure out a way to eliminate the cropping factor?
Or is that a necessary evil to make the image circle large enough to keep the sensor covered whilst engaging the movements? I'm sure that it, but can't a guy dream?
Yes, the "optical genii" that designed the lenses did not give the lenses enough image circle to allow for movements. presumable the HTS "lens angle of view" is the same, and the larger image circle results in a cropping factor. For macro this is not a problem, as image circle increases with extension.
Surely you'll make more money selling them to more than just the rental market and a few high-end commercial shooters?
The Digital Hasselblads are view-camera compatible (and would be more so if they enabled live view on the HD311-50), and you could theoretically hire a view camera and lenses to use with your Hasselblad DCU... but most people who go to the trouble of learning how to use a Medium Format Digital View Camera (MFDVC) would want one available all the time.
Most of the Hasselblad roll film lenses had more spare image circle, but not the wide angles that one would often use for architecture.
Hasselblad consequently made 2 view cameras for the V system.
Correction - I had said camera adaptors, but these are cameras: you put the film back on one end and the lens on the other.
One Camera the Arcbody is for architecture, for which you had to buy special lenses, and the other is the Flexbody, which you used with your normal V-system lenses.
I have a Flexbody and it works very well with the Macro-Planar 120 for product work. The Macro-Planar 120 is optimized for 1:1 to infinity, so it would not be ideal for jewelry.
I have a Sinar P3 and a Schneider Apo-digitar Macro 120, which is optimized for 3:1 to 1:3 or thereabouts, and a set of Zeiss Luminar lenses which can go up to 25:1 magnification.
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If you were going to stitch, shift enables you to "shift-and-stitch" instead of "pan-and-stitch" (if you have the spare image circle), so you lose no pixels through cropping after correcting the perspective, and you lose no res through distortion. You may want to shift in one direction and tilt in the other.
You might be able to use the HTS to shift-and-stitch and end up with the same image angle of view (as with the prime lens), but with more pixels.
Yes, the "optical genii" that designed the lenses did not give the lenses enough image circle to allow for movements. presumable the HTS "lens angle of view" is the same, and the larger image circle results in a cropping factor. For macro this is not a problem, as image circle increases with extension.
The Digital Hasselblads are view-camera compatible (and would be more so if they enabled live view on the HD311-50), and you could theoretically hire a view camera and lenses to use with your Hasselblad DCU... but most people who go to the trouble of learning how to use a Medium Format Digital View Camera (MFDVC) would want one available all the time.
Most of the Hasselblad roll film lenses had more spare image circle, but not the wide angles that one would often use for architecture.
Hasselblad consequently made 2 view camera adaptors for the V system, one for architecture (the Arcbody), for which you had to buy special lenses, and the Flexbody, which you used with your normal V-system lenses.
I have a Flexbody and it works very well with the Macro-Planar 120 for product work. The Macro-Planar 120 is optimized for 1:1 to infinity, so it would not be ideal for jewelry.
I have a Sinar P3 and a Schneider Apo-digitar Macro 120, which is optimized for 3:1 to 1:3 or thereabouts, and a set of Zeiss Luminar lenses which can go up to 25:1 magnification.
Great info Mr. Roadnight, and some good ideas I had not thought about due to lack of experience with LF movements -- thank you. However, I'm still left with the sentiment from my first line: "The answer always seems to be: spend more money -- and you'll still have to compromise or buy yet another system for a particular purpose" -- LOL!
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Great info Mr. Roadnight, and some good ideas I had not thought about due to lack of experience with LF movements -- thank you. However, I'm still left with the sentiment from my first line: "The answer always seems to be: spend more money -- and you'll still have to compromise or buy yet another system for a particular purpose" -- LOL!
I am sure there are professional photographers who only use one camera, some might only use one lens, but most of us think we need a range of tools to do a range of different jobs.