Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: EricWHiss on March 15, 2009, 01:15:35 am
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Hi,
Just picked up an ixpress 384 multishot back for a pretty decent deal this week. But I can't seem to find any information on it - not even the manuals from the Hasselblad site. I guess 2003/2004 was so long ago in digital time space that there's no need to keep information up on the internet? I want it for art reproduction jobs and also for macro work where I think the 16shot mode might be an advantage and its a whole lot cheaper than a new p65+ !!! I know Ixpressraf here on the forum has shot several of these backs for a while but want to overload him with all my questions (but I'll know I'll have a few... :-) ). Just wondering if anyone here is still shooting an ixpress multishot back? I'm going to fit it to my Rollei 6008 AF.
Further questions are why don't they make the 16 shot backs anymore and why not very many multishot backs at all? Are they that difficult to work with? I hope not!
Eric
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Hi Eric, when I was out to buy a digital back over a year ago, I was precisely hoping to find an Ixpress 384C to use, but at the time, the prices were either out of my budget, or else, there weren't really that many that I was able to find. I still don't have one, although someone was selling a 528C a little while back and that was very tempting! A few things key points I have learned about multishot is:
- You need a camera with an electronically controlled shutter to ensure that the exposure of each individual component multishot is the same duration.
- Vibration free places to take the shots in. I have read that if you're particularly unlucky, even passing trucks can affect your shots. So your tripod has to be good too, but I think most of us here use very sturdy tripods anyway.
- You will need a camera that allows you to take shot after shot without the mirror bouncing up and down. This means a view camera with electronic shutters, or cameras like the Hy6, AFi or Hasselblad H which allow you to raise the mirror once, shoot your multishots, then finally press to lower the mirror right at the end. Cameras that bounce the mirror up and down in between shots (like my Bronica) may move the camera slightly and misalign shots and therefore are unsuitable, if what I have read is correct.
- To get a copy of any manuals, you might have to contact someone like David Grover directly - I was not able to even get the Ixpress C manual except through either another user who already had one, or through an Hasselblad agent.
Hope this helps.
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I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think multishot backs are not made anymore because the pixel size has become so small that moving the chip by half a pixel to create a 16 shot capture is pretty hard. Or maybe the gap between the pixels is now too small, or something like that. I think pixel size has something to do with it, and the limitations of the technology. Of course I could be completely wrong 4 shot backs still exist (sinar), so big movements of one pixel width must still be possible, but if I understand the process correctly a 16 shot capture moved the chip by less than the width of one pixel to increase resolution.
Ben
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Well, it's a question of practicality and convenience, isn't it? Multishot was a really big deal during the time of the Sinarback 43 and 44, the Eyelike backs and the Ixpress 384/528 because 22megapix was the top end and if you needed something higher resolution, you could do multishot. Currently the Sinar eMotion 75H is still multishot, Hasselblad markets their current H3DII-39 MS model and you can still buy the older Hasselblad CF39MS digital back, if I'm not mistaken, eventhough they don't seem to mention it anymore. Nowadays people can get the resolution in a single shot with a 50mp or 60mp back, so eventhough the multishot will still deliver better colour resolution, perhaps many people think it's not worth the bother?
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I would think the biggest advantage may be that there would be no moire in the multi shot mode. I am sure there are many people on this forum who would swear by them for shooting still life, especially fabrics.
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The CF39MS albeit 'older' is still a current model. I believe Hasselblad is investigating to bring multishot to 50 & 60MP backs as well. I certainly hope that will include a CF version.
If I am not mistaken there is a manual in a download section on the Hasselblad site (maybe I have one in my doc's somewhere if you cannot find it, I will look).
The back itself is really so straightforward that a manual is hardly needed.
I used the 384 and now 39MS, indeed with fabrics it is truly fantastic and save me hours of post on moire and leaves my clients stunned by the sheer quality and detail. Moire is virtually totally gone (in really rare occasions I still get some). Images also appear sharper with nicer colors.
What is really nice, when you have to extract something (making it freestanding in post) it is a lot easier because of the clean shadows and colors!
Indeed 16shot was kind of a hassle. On occassion it was nice to use but in many cases it was very difficult to get to good results. Sure if it would be available on the 39 I would sometimes try to use it
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The 384c and 528c still remain the most affordable ultra high quality back's on the market. Unlike Dustback i often used microstep on my 384c without any problems. I must admit that my camrea was mounted on a sturdy camera stand, a big FOBA to be exact and that i am working on streetlevel, in a low traffic street, but even traffic didn't make much of a difference. Rollei and hasselblad H are my preferred platforms for microstep. When only doing multishot, i even used my trusty Fuji GX680 and contax 645 without any problems.
I never understood why these back's are so under appreciated, they are multi/microstep and can be used on location in one shot mode withouth a computer, just as any other one shot back.
Greetz, ixpressraf
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I used a 384C for over a year and now use a CF 39MS. I've used the CF 39MS with a Mamiya 645 AFD, Hasselblad H2F, and with a technical camera/electronic shutter combo.
The 384C worked well on the Mamiya, with the mirror locked up and at least six seconds between exposures. I also used the 384C with a 4X5 view camera and a Rodenstock digital lens mounted in a press shutter (the optical quality of Rodenstock and Scheider digital lenses are the best). I used an electro-mechanical device from Kapture Group to trigger the press shutter. That setup worked great for 4-shot but was a little fussy with 16-shot. I think your best bet, especially if budget is a factor, would be to mount the 384C on a Mamiya AFD or a Hasselblad H1. I've used both the Mamiya 120 macro and the 80 macro for copy work. They are outstanding lenses and are affordable on the used market.
A solid copystand, tripod, or camera stand is essential. Concrete floors are better than wood.
Another thing to remember if you are going to be getting into 4-shot and 16-shot is that it is imperative to have color-accurate strobes. I naively started out with Alien Bee strobes and learned early on that they aren't suitable for multi-shot work. The Elinchrom Digital RX series and Broncolor are excellent, with the latter being the best. One thing I'll say about 16-shot photography is that it is hard on strobes.
The image quality of a CF 39MS file is sharper and yields better color than a single-shot 50 or 60 mp back.
Many museums and art repro businesses still use Sinar 54H backs (excellent 4-shot/16-shot back), which are 22mp. They only work tethered to a computer and only run on Macs.
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I agree on the strobes. I use Elinchrom RX as well and they work great with multishot.
I have great results with the H and Digiflex II (I still love this ancient brick-like piece of equipment).
I know several people in here are thinking of buying a 384 and can tell, the newer CF39 yields larger files of pretty much the same quality. It is also a bit handier because it doesn't need to be tethered always (for 4-shot it does).
When used tethered I found the 384 actually a much better experience than the CF39MS. The wire is thin and doesn't get in the way, the ball-connection of the wire to the back is pure genius.
I bought my back from Ipressraf, I know he is trying to sell 2 more for a while now. I agree it is weird these backs seem so unpopular. I think that might be because they are fairly unknown.
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hi Eric,
it is indeed very difficult to achieve a perfect 16-shot mode with sensors around 30 MPx or more: the slightest vibration/movement, even unnoticeable, does affect the result. So it is very unlikely that a 16-shot mode will be available with sensors going up in resolution.
However, I find a 16-shot file (even a 4-shot) from a 22 MPx back still being the nec plus ultra concerning IQ, in all terms (color reproduction, details, contrast, modulation, etc ...) and by far, in the contrary to what is sometimes suggested or found by others, included the recent 60 MPx file I have got to be able to see recently on the site of a dealer. This provided one makes use of the best lenses.
Best regards,
Thierry
Further questions are why don't they make the 16 shot backs anymore and why not very many multishot backs at all? Are they that difficult to work with? I hope not!
Eric
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However, I find a 16-shot file (even a 4-shot) from a 22 MPx back still being the nec plus ultra concerning IQ, in all terms (color reproduction, details, contrast, modulation, etc ...) and by far, in the contrary to what is sometimes suggested or found by others, included the recent 60 MPx file I have got to be able to see recently on the site of a dealer. This provided one makes use of the best lenses.
Thierry, the 4- and 16-shot backs are not always practical, obviously, especially the 16-shot, but I was wondering if a 4-shot 22MP back would be usable with an MSI Wind netbook with Mac OS X installed. This would seem some kind of compromise between portability and image quality. Do you know anyone who has done this? Clearly, the machine is quite slow, but if it would work, one could use such a back away from the studio without carrying much more than a normal portable back.
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Everyone who sees quality of a 4 shot states that it surpasses all other back's but still people are not interested to buy such a back.
I have two 528c and one 384c of wich a 528c and a 384c are up for sale but no respons( eric ans myself chat often about these things but aside of him......).
Do people really believe the crapp that a d2x or other comes near a back in image quality???
A year ago or so, everybody wass sure that a 5d was no match for a back. Now that the 5dmk2 arrived wich is according to several people only marginally better then its predecessor everything turned the other way. Besides the multishot capability of the 528 and 384c back's they can also easely be used on location since they have a rear display for viewing the image. They only need to be connected to a computer or laptop for shooting multi and microstep.
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Carsten,
I cannot tell you whether your exact configuration will work but I do know you can use the 528/384 use the image bank and have a screen. The only thing is that you are carrying around a 80's sized walkman (or a small brick). The magazine provides storage and power. Personally I like the feeling of freedom of CF but I never mind working tethered if I can.
For 4 shot you will need to attach the magazine to the notebook via firewire, not sure whether the battery on the digital magazine will help but maybe Raf or David can fill in here. I thought it did but to be frank I never paid attention to that. A pity many small notebooks don't carry firewire
You would not be able to use Phocus with that but Flexcolor is much less of a burden on a system. I am pretty sure you can get away with that on fairly minimal spec's.
Not sure how it works with Sinar multishot back. Do they have an imagebank solution?
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The MSI Wind is a PC netbook. You'd need to use OSx86. But there's no Firewire port - not even the PC type 4-pin port. So no connection. With the battery on the Image Bank, the Imacons will tether properly to a PC notebook, using a 6-pin to 4-pin Firewire cable.
Sinar used to make the CyberKit, a pretty good ImageBank and dedicated computer/monitor rolled into one for older Sinarbacks like the 23, 43 nad 44. I think it was also usable with the early 54. Pity they discontinued it.
Cheers,
Kumar
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I believe only the HP Mini-Note series have an ExpressCard slot and therefore the possibility of adding a Firewire port to a netbook, but watch out, the early HP Mini Notes used a VIA C7 CPU which in my experience is simply not fast enough and won't run OSx86. In any case even running XP, several Firewire ExpressCards I tested wouldn't supply power. Not a big deal with the Ixpress backs but problematic for any other back.
On another note though, I used FlexColor for some time on my first generation Mac mini which had only a 1.42GHz PowerPC and 3F conversion to JPEG took about 2mins 45sec each. I now have Mac OS X running on a dual core Atom N330 desktop board @ 1.6GHz and FlexColor spits out a converted 3F file every 32 seconds. That's a massive 5x speedup. In comparison my Core 2 Duo @ 2.4GHz does one every 8 seconds. Not too shabby for the Atom processor.
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Hi all,
I buy a iXpress 384C last week, and I have some questions for people how use this back.
The back comes whit a Mamiya 645 Adapter, but I do not have this camera, and I´ll like to know if I can use this back in the 4 shoots mode whit a Hasselblad 553 ELX, in this case I have to find and adapter for the V cameras.
When you make a 4 shoot picture across the FlexColor HOW do I do to have the 190Mb file?? I see that the file is the same that the 1 shoot, I mean, do I have to do something special in the post procces??
And muy last question.... ANY place where to find the User Manuel for the 384??
Thanks in advance
Best
Efra
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Hi all,
I buy a iXpress 384C last week, and I have some questions for people how use this back.
The back comes whit a Mamiya 645 Adapter, but I do not have this camera, and I´ll like to know if I can use this back in the 4 shoots mode whit a Hasselblad 553 ELX, in this case I have to find and adapter for the V cameras.
When you make a 4 shoot picture across the FlexColor HOW do I do to have the 190Mb file?? I see that the file is the same that the 1 shoot, I mean, do I have to do something special in the post procces??
And muy last question.... ANY place where to find the User Manuel for the 384??
Thanks in advance
Best
Efra
4-shot is the same Mb file as a one-shot. 16-shot 16bit files are 384Mb. You can use this back with a Hasselblad 553 ELX. You will, however need the right adapter plate. The 384C is a great back and will produce stunning images.
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Thanks, now I have less question to solve
Any place where to find the user manual?
Thanks again
Best
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Hi Efra,
I can e-mail you a copy of the ixpress c manual...
I think you're going to like this once you get it all connected. The good thing is the adapter plates are still easy to find for lots of camera makes and the multi-shot is not hard to use and it makes a huge improvement in quality. I now have a 528c instead of the 384 that I posted about in this old topic. I used this last week for a art reproduction shoot just last week in a gallery and the multi-shot and micro-step gave me a big advantage over my phase back. This forum has been a great resource for information regarding the ixpress backs and the hasselbladdigital users forum is also a great resource.
Eric
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how exactly does a multishot back work differently from the common digital backs made by Hasselblad, Phase, etc?
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A multishot back contains an additional module that will move the sensor by 1 pixel in multishot mode (0,5pixel in microstep mode). it will make something like a 'referenceshot' followed by 4 shots (in which the sensor moves). Each color will be recorded separately and green twice (RGBG not sure in what specific order, I never took the effort to investigate that). This way there is no Bayer demosaicing necessary. The results will be, better colors, better sharpness and no artefacts that are typical with the Bayer method.
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A multishot back contains an additional module that will move the sensor by 1 pixel in multishot mode (0,5pixel in microstep mode). it will make something like a 'referenceshot' followed by 4 shots (in which the sensor moves). Each color will be recorded separately and green twice (RGBG not sure in what specific order, I never took the effort to investigate that). This way there is no Bayer demosaicing necessary. The results will be, better colors, better sharpness and no artefacts that are typical with the Bayer method.
sounds like great technology, but shouldn't this be standard on MF DB, or is the technology to expensive to make?
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so far,
the only way to have PERFECT registration(from 4 or 16 shots) is to have the camera clamped down TIGHT to a studio stand or very stable tripod.
being able to shoot hand-held in 4-shot or 16-shot is utterly impossible.
the reasoning for not being able to get the best color accuracy out of single shot backs is because sensors aren't like film(film has multiple layers), where as sensors have different photosites which are sensitive to the primary colors (R,G,
EXCEPT the foveon sensors, which are layered designs.
so, each pixel is only able to capture its corresponding color from the spectrum(R=R, etc.)
moving the sensor itself by 1 pixel(multi-shot) or by 0.5pixel(micro-step), you get the ability for each "photo site" to record each color at each pixel
then the software merges all the files together to form a single file.
-Dan
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sounds like great technology, but shouldn't this be standard on MF DB, or is the technology to expensive to make?
this is why a lot of people who shoot product, automotive(from what I've found) and STATIC objects use the sinar M-S backs.
-Dan
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this is why a lot of people who shoot product, automotive(from what I've found) and STATIC objects use the sinar M-S backs.
-Dan
The Ixpress backs (and I'm pretty sure the Sinars) do shoot single shot as well. It's good practise to always capture a single shot in case something moves in the shot. A fairly common approach would be for example shooting a model in a roomset, the room is captured as a multi-shot (no moire!) and then a bunch of singles are shot and the chosen frame layer masked in.
Nick-T
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Hi, do any know is the 384C Can be mounted on a RZ67 whit motro to shoot in multi shoot mode??
I know the multishot need a motorized camera, I already have the RZ67 but not the winder, but if that work I´ll look for one.
Best
Efra
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Hi, do any know is the 384C Can be mounted on a RZ67 whit motro to shoot in multi shoot mode??
I know the multishot need a motorized camera, I already have the RZ67 but not the winder, but if that work I´ll look for one.
To make multi-shot work, you need to check 2 things:
( a ) your lens must have an electronically controlled shutter to ensure that in each of the 4- or 16- multishots, each exposure duration is consistent, or very very similar to each other. If they vary more than a certain tolerance allowed for by the software, the multishot won't work.
( b ) check your RZ67 - for multishot to work well, you cannot afford any vibration that will knock the camera out of register from shot-to-shot. The mirror-lockup function must lock the mirror up, allow the 4 or 16 individual shots to be taken, then allowed to swing down AFTER all 4 or 16 shots have been exposed. If you find that the mirror bounces up and down between shots even with mirror lockup, then that is no use.
E.g., on the Bronica SQ-Ai, even if I select continuous mirror-lockup, the mirror still bounces up and down between shots, which renders it useless for multishot. Cameras like the Sinar Hy6 / Leaf AFi, the Mamiya 645 AFD series and the Hasselblad H3D all allow you to select mirror up, allow a whole series of shots to be taken while the mirror remains up and only swings back down again when you press the mirror lockup button again (or some similar procedure).
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Ok, I´ll check all that things.
Thank you for the infoshutay.
Best
Efra1