Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: photo4 on March 05, 2009, 08:54:24 pm
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Hi,
I am now currently using H1 with P45 and looking to upgrade to P65+. The problem I have is that my dealer whom I bought the P25, and subsequently upgraded to P45, is charging me a lot for the upgrade to P65+. My question, therefore, is whether I have to o the upgrade with my original dealer or can I go to any Phase One distributor (obviosuly to somewhere they charge less)? If so, can someone recommend me a place where the cost can be minimized.
Greatly appreciate it.
Rgds,
Ed
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Hi,
I am now currently using H1 with P45 and looking to upgrade to P65+. The problem I have is that my dealer whom I bought the P25, and subsequently upgraded to P45, is charging me a lot for the upgrade to P65+. My question, therefore, is whether I have to o the upgrade with my original dealer or can I go to any Phase One distributor (obviosuly to somewhere they charge less)? If so, can someone recommend me a place where the cost can be minimized.
Greatly appreciate it.
Rgds,
Ed
What is the upgrade price the dealer is quoting you?
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What is the upgrade price the dealer is quoting you?
And better yet, what kind of business are you in that you feel like you'll see a "used 7-series BMW difference" between a P45 and a P65...? Where do you think you'll see the major benefits in upgrading?
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Hi,
I am now currently using H1 with P45 and looking to upgrade to P65+. The problem I have is that my dealer whom I bought the P25, and subsequently upgraded to P45, is charging me a lot for the upgrade to P65+. My question, therefore, is whether I have to o the upgrade with my original dealer or can I go to any Phase One distributor (obviosuly to somewhere they charge less)? If so, can someone recommend me a place where the cost can be minimized.
Greatly appreciate it.
Rgds,
Ed
Ah, sounds like the drug dealer pricing model.
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I wait with bated breath as well: how much was the quoted upgrade price?
Anyone else feel free to chime in as well...
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I wait with bated breath as well: how much was the quoted upgrade price?
Anyone else feel free to chime in as well...
Hi,
Not certain on the P45 but to upgrade our P45+ to 65+
$17k USD
US South west area
D
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Prices will be fairly consistent across dealers. I don't think it will move from "7-series" to "3-series" (though I prefer MB myself!
These are small production, hand made devices with very high sensor costs. The offer of upgrades strikes me as a bargain in itself. Also, the $17k is for the value added. If you don't need the 3yr coverage, it can be 2-3k cheaper.
I am waiting for the P65+ with Sensor+ from Capture Integration. I had a chance to test the P65+ and it was impressive. I have the P45+ and would NOT have done it for the extra pixels, but the sensor+ and the other (higher frame rate) are well worth it to me, although I am just a 'very serious' amateur' (maybe 20k images a year). Michael says the overall technology is a step up, and with all the ALpa, Contax and Hasselblad I have accummulated so the 17k is a relatively small investment to stay 'state of the art'
BTW, where can you get a used 7 series for 17k?
Victor
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Prices will be fairly consistent across dealers. I don't think it will move from "7-series" to "3-series" (though I prefer MB myself!
These are small production, hand made devices with very high sensor costs. The offer of upgrades strikes me as a bargain in itself. Also, the $17k is for the value added. If you don't need the 3yr coverage, it can be 2-3k cheaper.
I am waiting for the P65+ with Sensor+ from Capture Integration. I had a chance to test the P65+ and it was impressive. I have the P45+ and would NOT have done it for the extra pixels, but the sensor+ and the other (higher frame rate) are well worth it to me, although I am just a 'very serious' amateur' (maybe 20k images a year). Michael says the overall technology is a step up, and with all the ALpa, Contax and Hasselblad I have accummulated so the 17k is a relatively small investment to stay 'state of the art'
BTW, where can you get a used 7 series for 17k?
Victor
I am curious whether anyone has recently traded in their P45 to P65+. If so, how much did you pay?
Hope to hear from you.
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I am curious whether anyone has recently traded in their P45 to P65+. If so, how much did you pay?
Hope to hear from you.
I was flew home to US in Jan and from LA - > NYC -> TX, they all considered my CF39=P45 for the purpose of P65+ trade-in (upgrade) @ USD19K. A P45+ => P65+ @ USD14k. I flew home dejected!
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£10,810 including VAT = $16,463 at current rates, London for 45+ to 65+ without the value added coverage...
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£10,810 including VAT = $16,463 at current rates, London for 45+ to 65+ without the value added coverage...
Global price "fixing"?! Naaah.... Apple does it... likewise with BigMac (all on par with one another). Howver, I find Cheeseburge in Norway 20Kron very cheap - considering a local call is 10Kron!
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The "list" price to go from P45+ to P65+ is $14,990. There may be some variation from dealer to dealer, but not much. There is no "price fixing", meaning Phase One does not apply any pressure on any dealer to sell at a certain price. Every dealer has their cost, knows the list price and can discount whatever amount they are comfortable with.
Steve Hendrix
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The "list" price to go from P45+ to P65+ is $14,990.
...and, if you sold your P45+ and and bought an H4D-60, you would be paying two or three times the money to change?
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Two very good friends did this upgrade from the P45 to P65 plus and really end of day it is worth the upgrade . Sensor Plus, Much better ISO by a long shot in full res. . Faster shooting, No two cable release for wakeup. Also bottom line they did NOT do it for the extra 21mpx either. It was more about function and capability. I went from the P30+ to the P40+ and it was not about more mpx either although very welcomed it was about these new Dalsa sensors , speed, better ISO and less moire. The price Steve quoted is about right on the money from the 45 to 65 and your also more than anything giving your system more useful life and resale value. The upgrades are very hard to pass on. My system now is worth much more than it was with the P30+ with the trade in. Even over and above what I paid because the trade in's come in with a heavy user value for your existing back and no way in hell your going to sell your back on the open market for what the trade value is given. Honestly it is a smart move if you are staying in that same system, Phase and hassy are not stupid folks they want you in there system so they give nice value on those trade ups at least I know Phase does. Hassy I just don't follow very closely.
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...and, if you sold your P45+ and and bought an H4D-60, you would be paying two or three times the money to change?
Well P45+ used/demo units are selling in the $16K-$17K range from a dealer, lower from end user to end user. Since you receive $25K credit on a P65+ upgrade, trading in a P45+ rather than selling it nets you an extra $8K - $9K.
Steve Hendrix
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Two very good friends did this upgrade from the P45 to P65 plus and really end of day it is worth the upgrade . Sensor Plus, Much better ISO by a long shot in full res. . Faster shooting, No two cable release for wakeup. Also bottom line they did NOT do it for the extra 21mpx either. It was more about function and capability. I went from the P30+ to the P40+ and it was not about more mpx either although very welcomed it was about these new Dalsa sensors , speed, better ISO and less moire. The price Steve quoted is about right on the money from the 45 to 65 and your also more than anything giving your system more useful life and resale value. The upgrades are very hard to pass on. My system now is worth much more than it was with the P30+ with the trade in. Even over and above what I paid because the trade in's come in with a heavy user value for your existing back and no way in hell your going to sell your back on the open market for what the trade value is given. Honestly it is a smart move if you are staying in that same system, Phase and hassy are not stupid folks they want you in there system so they give nice value on those trade ups at least I know Phase does. Hassy I just don't follow very closely.
Thanks. In that case, is it worth it just to trade in from P45 to P45+? If so, anyone has experience and can advise the cost?
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Thanks. In that case, is it worth it just to trade in from P45 to P45+? If so, anyone has experience and can advise the cost?
I would say no to be honest. Both of these backs have taken a nose dive let's say in the open market because of the new backs out today like the P40+ and P65+ . There is very little gain in going from a 45 to 45+ whereas the pro's on upgrading to the 65+ far more outweigh it.
Here let's use a example i just saw this in the buy and sell a P30 for sale 5500 what is the most you can get on a P30+ in the open market maybe 6500 or 7500 . Trade in value on a P30+ to a bigger back can be as high as 9500 to 10500 depending on what dealer and phase maybe offering at the time. Don't hold me to these exact numbers but a general ballpark. So in this case you are going to get far more for a trade in than the open market on a P30+ or even a P30. The idea here is you will always do better trading up within your system. You will take a bath selling your own gear in most case here. You may have paid 12k for your P30 several years ago now the value is 5500 you lost in that time the deprecation of about 6500 to go sell in the open market and that same p30 could maybe bring you 8k in a trade up instead so your saving to trade up maybe 2500 or more than selling it yourself. If your staying in the same system obviously your best deal will always be trading up , Phase and Hassy will make sure of that because it is designed to keep you in the system so your trade value will always be user valued. If your getting out of the system entirely than your on your own and looking at a bigger overall lose. In Phase case your best bet is trading up you get more value for what you have and obviously it discounts the cost of the new system right off the bat not counting what other savings maybe with a dealer or a Phase promotion. Which one just past which I forget the particulars but there was some very nice extra benefits to buying a DF and P65+. Obviously check with your dealer or Phase site for these promo's they throw around.
When i put pencil to paper going from the P30+ to P40+ and figuring out all the Pro's and con's to upgrading and with the thought of staying with Phase than it all made perfect sense to move up and hold my resale value on my system for one than the extra benefits of the P40+ over the P30+ which may not seem like much but the devalued P30+ now it made perfect sense to get as much out of it on trading up. Plus i get the benefit of the P40+ at a much discounted price with the trade in value. Obviously you have to do what makes the most perfect sense for your situation. But i do encourage folks to actually do pencil to paper and do the math and what these newer backs will do in use and see what makes the most logical sense to you and your pocket. End of day i made a great choice as I really really like my P40+ and I just don't say that very easily. I am very picky on gear and what works for me.
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Hi,
I am now currently using H1 with P45 and looking to upgrade to P65+. The problem I have is that my dealer whom I bought the P25, and subsequently upgraded to P45, is charging me a lot for the upgrade to P65+. My question, therefore, is whether I have to o the upgrade with my original dealer or can I go to any Phase One distributor (obviosuly to somewhere they charge less)? If so, can someone recommend me a place where the cost can be minimized.
Greatly appreciate it.
Rgds,
Ed
HI Ed,
Phase dealers have a set upgrade pricing path from Phase One so there shouldn't be much difference in pricing from dealer to dealer. Unless you are paying cash the other way to offset the cost is using Section 179 of the tax code through leasing. 2010 allows for 100% depreciation. I can send you the information.
Chris Benes
Digital Fusion
310-253-9008 ext 154
Phase One for Southern California
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Doing taxes right now today and that Section 179 is a freaking gift from God himself. LOL
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More than the cost from dealer to dealer is the value of the service they provide. I switched from my local dealer to Capture Integration because of their fantastic support.
Paul
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Just for the record - in case anyone's interested - last P45+ sold privately on eBay (with some Value Added Warranty remaining) went for $13.5k; last P45+ from a dealer went on eBay for $12.5k. Both looked in great condiditon.
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More than the cost from dealer to dealer is the value of the service they provide. I switched from my local dealer to Capture Integration because of their fantastic support.
Paul
Must be something about that air over there in Atlanta.
Edmund
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Doing taxes right now today and that Section 179 is a freaking gift from God himself. LOL
Remember: "Tax effective accounting" IS NOT "tax avoidance" BUT the latter can deemed the former quite effectively as "avoidance". Huh?
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Remember: "Tax effective accounting" IS NOT "tax avoidance" BUT the latter can deemed the former quite effectively as "avoidance". Huh?
I like to call it lowering the nut. LOL
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Well P45+ used/demo units are selling in the $16K-$17K range from a dealer, lower from end user to end user. Since you receive $25K credit on a P65+ upgrade, trading in a P45+ rather than selling it nets you an extra $8K - $9K.
I am positive digital upgrades will never stop, but it would be nice to see a little more sanity in the way they are performed.
I 've always thought it was s shame to just chuck a still good digital camera or back to upgrade to the next and I think RED is on to something.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/14/red-one...rade-next-week/ (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/14/red-one-getting-mysterium-x-sensor-upgrade-next-week/)
A $5,750 sensor upgrade that gives a 400 iso base sensitivity without having to throw out anything, (but the sensor).
When you think about what your $40,000 digital back is worth used on today's market which is less than 1/2 price, or the cost of upgrading to the p65 at $17,500, you have to wonder why?
I know how much I've made off my Phase backs, Canon cameras and lenses and know that today they are still as viable as they were 12 months ago and since they're still working, still in use and no client is asking me for more in the still photography image area, for me the next step up is better motion capture.
Comparing the total costs of systems to a p65+ at $50,000 to a complete RED including 5 prime lenses, viewfinders, lcds, rods and mounting that can come in workable and ready to shoot at $51,000 to $55,000, the price of the still camera world doesn't make sense to me.
I guess it depends on what you do and what you plan to do, but I look at a camera as not how much I can take off my taxes but how much I can add to my repertoire and billing.
BC
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I am positive digital upgrades will never stop, but it would be nice to see a little more sanity in the way they are performed.
I 've always thought it was s shame to just chuck a still good digital camera or back to upgrade to the next and I think RED is on to something.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/14/red-one...rade-next-week/ (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/14/red-one-getting-mysterium-x-sensor-upgrade-next-week/)
A $5,750 sensor upgrade that gives a 400 iso base sensitivity without having to throw out anything, (but the sensor).
When you think about what your $40,000 digital back is worth used on today's market which is less than 1/2 price, or the cost of upgrading to the p65 at $17,500, you have to wonder why?
I know how much I've made off my Phase backs, Canon cameras and lenses and know that today they are still as viable as they were 12 months ago and since they're still working, still in use and no client is asking me for more in the still photography image area, for me the next step up is better motion capture.
Comparing the total costs of systems to a p65+ at $50,000 to a complete RED including 5 prime lenses, viewfinders, lcds, rods and mounting that can come in workable and ready to shoot at $51,000 to $55,000, the price of the still camera world doesn't make sense to me.
I guess it depends on what you do and what you plan to do, but I look at a camera as not how much I can take off my taxes but how much I can add to my repertoire and billing.
BC
Looks like your perfect camera is just around the corner, B (no price yet, but I guess it'll be competitive):
BRONTAX (http://www.camerondavidson.com/blog/2010/04/01/new-brontax-medium-format-digital-system)
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I am positive digital upgrades will never stop, but it would be nice to see a little more sanity in the way they are performed.
I 've always thought it was s shame to just chuck a still good digital camera or back to upgrade to the next and I think RED is on to something.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/14/red-one...rade-next-week/ (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/14/red-one-getting-mysterium-x-sensor-upgrade-next-week/)
A $5,750 sensor upgrade that gives a 400 iso base sensitivity without having to throw out anything, (but the sensor).
When you think about what your $40,000 digital back is worth used on today's market which is less than 1/2 price, or the cost of upgrading to the p65 at $17,500, you have to wonder why?
I know how much I've made off my Phase backs, Canon cameras and lenses and know that today they are still as viable as they were 12 months ago and since they're still working, still in use and no client is asking me for more in the still photography image area, for me the next step up is better motion capture.
Comparing the total costs of systems to a p65+ at $50,000 to a complete RED including 5 prime lenses, viewfinders, lcds, rods and mounting that can come in workable and ready to shoot at $51,000 to $55,000, the price of the still camera world doesn't make sense to me.
I guess it depends on what you do and what you plan to do, but I look at a camera as not how much I can take off my taxes but how much I can add to my repertoire and billing.
BC
I did all three so that helped a great deal. Thank you very much
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Remember: "Tax effective accounting" IS NOT "tax avoidance" BUT the latter can deemed the former quite effectively as "avoidance". Huh?
I don't know the small print of leasing in other Countries but here in the UK, leasing has been pushed as the best tax efficient means to acquire new equipment. Its increase in popularity is due more to tightening of laws to benefit the consumer on traditional HP agreements. Leasing does have advantages here in the UK, not always as great as the salesman would have you believe. Leasing does have one huge drawback, you have no entitlement to the equipment, what you have is an agreement to pay x amount of money per month. You will find the leasing company is within it's rights to take back the equipment if you default on payments but you will still owe the remainder of the lease. So if you find yourself in a position where you can not pay the lease, you could lose the equipment and ability to earn with it and be left with the debt. Just something to keep in mind, I would rather HP and own the equipment, plus if you do default the equipment after a certain period is yours so you could sell it to claw back some money to pay the loan company. No body intends to be in a position of not being able to pay, things do change and circumstances are not always within your control.
Kevin.
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Hi,
I am now currently using H1 with P45 and looking to upgrade to P65+. The problem I have is that my dealer whom I bought the P25, and subsequently upgraded to P45, is charging me a lot for the upgrade to P65+. My question, therefore, is whether I have to o the upgrade with my original dealer or can I go to any Phase One distributor (obviosuly to somewhere they charge less)? If so, can someone recommend me a place where the cost can be minimized.
Greatly appreciate it.
Rgds,
Ed
If you do upgrade to a P65+, be careful about a firmware update on the H1. The people at Phase One are telling me that the lastest H firmware (9.5.0) is not compatible with the P65+.