Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Nick-T on March 03, 2009, 03:17:36 pm
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I've noticed twice in the last few days people making statements along the lines of "I hate Hasselblad and the way they have to use software to fix up their crap lenses".
I have also noticed that the people making these statements appear not to have had any personal experience with these lenses.
Well Hasselblad have provided some sample RAW images for you guys to look at, plus they have changed their terms (at long last) so that you can download the software (Phocus) without having to own a back, you do have to register for the download but again need not be an owner.
There are 4 images available on the site:
#1 An interior (ambient light by the look of it) with the 28mm. Now to me the sharpness looks amazing but perhaps an architectural expert could chime in. The distortion correction also looks very good to me but again I'd love to hear comments from the experts.
#2 A pretty girl shot in studio with the 120 macro, actually quite similar to the shot that Niel Snape posted (that I felt had some processing/ exposure flaws).
#3 Another pretty girl (hurrah!) with maybe some flash fill shot with the zoom.
#4 finally a night time shot of the London eye done with the 35mm.
Downloads are here:
http://hasselblad.com/downloads/images.aspx (http://hasselblad.com/downloads/images.aspx)
about 240 MB worth.
Download Phocus as well:
http://hasselblad.com/service--support/tec...-downloads.aspx (http://hasselblad.com/service--support/technical-support/software-downloads.aspx)
Then point Phocus at the folder of images you downloaded.
Toggle the lens corrections on and off (on all images), you'll see the most difference with the 28mm distortion correction.
I look forward to feedback.
Nick-T
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There are 4 images available on the site:
#1 An interior (ambient light by the look of it) with the 28mm. Now to me the sharpness looks amazing but perhaps an architectural expert could chime in. The distortion correction also looks very good to me but again I'd love to hear comments from the experts.
#2 A pretty girl shot in studio with the 120 macro, actually quite similar to the shot that Niel Snape posted (that I felt had some processing/ exposure flaws).
#3 Another pretty girl (hurrah!) with maybe some flash fill shot with the zoom.
#4 finally a night time shot of the London eye done with the 35mm.
Interesting images. Nice detail and colour in the portraits. The London Eye 35mm shot looks a little soft and distorted in the corners, but then, I don't know what the circumstances were, so it is hard to determine if it is reasonable. Also unfortunately, the 28mm image was taken with the H3DII-31, which has only a 44x33mm sensor, so it is impossible to evaluate the corners of the lens from this shot. The largest aperture used was f/8, and that was one portrait, taken with the 50-110 zoom, so it is not possible to evaluate the characteristics of the out-of-focus blur either. Are there more samples somewhere?
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Interesting images. Nice detail and colour in the portraits. The London Eye 35mm shot looks a little soft and distorted in the corners, but then, I don't know what the circumstances were, so it is hard to determine if it is reasonable. Also unfortunately, the 28mm image was taken with the H3DII-31, which has only a 44x33mm sensor, so it is impossible to evaluate the corners of the lens from this shot. The largest aperture used was f/8, and that was one portrait, taken with the 50-110 zoom, so it is not possible to evaluate the characteristics of the out-of-focus blur either. Are there more samples somewhere?
Good points Carsten, not sure if they plan on putting up more images, I'll see if I can find out.
Nick-T
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the problem is to be free to use the software that WE want
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the problem is to be free to use the software that WE want
Good point.
However, most of the comments imply that Hasselblad uses the software to fix a bad design.
There can be no perfect lens. Physics won't let you make one. Given that, the folks at Hasselblad decided that if they concentrate on the things which cannot be corrected in software and then let the software concentrate on the things which can be corrected in software, they can come closer to having a perfect lens than they could otherwise.
In other words, they use software to complete a good design.
People who actually use the lens seem to be quite happy with it.
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the problem is to be free to use the software that WE want
Erick,
I understand your intent, and it's certainly a valid point, but please change the pronoun.
I shoot with Phocus most days on location, and for what I do, it's perfect.
Now if they could only get the 35 to perform at the edges the way the 28 does.....
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I compare my 28mm Hasselblad to the Schneider and Rodenstock lenses I use on different format cameras. The Hasselblad lens with DAC corrections performs very well. It is amusing to read people's biases against so called digital corrections - but at the same time be users of digital backs..very funny actually. The anti-Hasselblad sentiment is loud - but doesn't bother people who own and use this stuff very much. The reality is that it isnt easy to make a 28 covering a 645 format both Hasselblad and Mamiya are to be congratulated for delivering their solutions.
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Thanks for the hint Nick,
last time with hasselblad for me was still with flex, but I was really curious how far phocus has come, so I dl'd it and gave it a quick try. Very nice actually, reminds me a little of the good ole c1 3 (rip)
Here's a (quick) first feedback from a fashion shooters perspective ( I actually don't care a lot about those corrections, but the ca one comes in handy)
1. When I apply a custom profile to the image the dark background of the viewer changes it's color accordingly. Very annoying bug.
2. I would really need custom target colors in levels an also in curves for the white and black point in each channel (this is where c1 3 shines and c1 4 and LR stink)
3. Negative vignetting would be much appreciated
Unfortunately the sample files don't show moirée and unfortunately they are all shot at base iso, but at least something to play with :-)
cheers,
martin
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1. When I apply a custom profile to the image the dark background of the viewer changes it's color accordingly. Very annoying bug.
I've just sent that off to the team, I've never felt the need to use a different input profile so never noticed it before.
2. I would really need custom target colors in levels an also in curves for the white and black point in each channel (this is where c1 3 shines and c1 4 and LR stink)
do you mean for example being able to load a levels adjustment that takes pure white to 254,252,254 or something? If so then you can do this in curves or levels by creating a preset.
3. Negative vignetting would be much appreciated
Yep that would be neat I'll ask for it to go on the wish list.
Unfortunately the sample files don't show moirée and unfortunately they are all shot at base iso, but at least something to play with :-)
True! The moire filter is amazing and should be shown off but I guess it would be hard to persuade someone from marketing that you wanted to host a file with Moire in it..
Nick-T
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It is amusing to read people's biases against so called digital corrections - but at the same time be users of digital backs..very funny actually.
That is a fatuous relationship you are trying to create there between two unrelated things that happen to have the same word in them.
The reality is that it isnt easy to make a 28 covering a 645 format both Hasselblad and Mamiya are to be congratulated for delivering their solutions.
Well, not Hasselblad because it won't cover 645.
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It's actually funny we are talking about the 28mm
it's probably one of the most important focal lengths for me on the P30+ or the H3D-31 (with their respective 28)
The first time I had a chance to demo the Hasselblad 28 I have to honestly say I was very seriously impressed.
I know a technical camera + something like a Rodenstock can offer better IQ, but some peoples (clients) shooting style, such as myself; it's just not convenient.
Possible, but not convenient.
so I do treasure the 28 when the job calls for it.
and this is only my feeling but I don't care if it's in lens, in software or little aliens in my hard drive "fixing" the faults of the lens, as long as the Raw convertor spits out a proper tiff, I'm good with it.
am
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That is a fatuous relationship you are trying to create there between two unrelated things that happen to have the same word in them.
Well, not Hasselblad because it won't cover 645.
Fatuous is your second comment - I dont care about a 10% crop.
My first comment is right on the money. As soon as you put a digi back on your camera - you are in the hands of mathematics as far as what you see on screen. . I dont see a problem with it - because unlike most who post on here..i can add. So if people dont mind their raw processed file being an outcome of some clever math - why do they mind the same logic applied to lens development? If they do mind - idont care - the proof is always in the print.
Now if you want to say - but you cant use the 28mm fron blad to shoot film - well it wasnt made to shoot film with was it?
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Interesting images. Nice detail and colour in the portraits. The London Eye 35mm shot looks a little soft and distorted in the corners, but then, I don't know what the circumstances were, so it is hard to determine if it is reasonable. Also unfortunately, the 28mm image was taken with the H3DII-31, which has only a 44x33mm sensor, so it is impossible to evaluate the corners of the lens from this shot. The largest aperture used was f/8, and that was one portrait, taken with the 50-110 zoom, so it is not possible to evaluate the characteristics of the out-of-focus blur either. Are there more samples somewhere?
Have a look at post #9
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry229627 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28651&st=0&p=229627&#entry229627)
I think the London Eye shot is about 10 seconds? (Check Meta data). My colleague and I shot it from a bouncy bridge (if it is the portrait framed image) so we were amazed to get anything! The main purpose of that shot was to examine the noise levels compared to a 1DSMkII. So you could take a peek into the shadows or play around with the exposure comp. to see what detail is lurking there.
Best,
David
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PS. And thanks to Nick for beating me to it.
As he mentioned, Phocus is now free to download without product registration. It is a full version, no restrictions.
The interior, as Nick assumes, is shot with Ambient light. There were some others in the series that were a mix of flash and ambient. My colleague and I were very nervous here as the glassware dated from the mid 1800's and we are not known for our sure-footedness.
Best,
David
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Downloads are here:
http://hasselblad.com/downloads/images.aspx (http://hasselblad.com/downloads/images.aspx)
about 240 MB worth.
Download Phocus as well:
http://hasselblad.com/service--support/tec...-downloads.aspx (http://hasselblad.com/service--support/technical-support/software-downloads.aspx)
Please note if you don't have a login for Hasselblad.com, create one by clicking on the 'Product Registration' link at the top of the web page. You do NOT need a Hasselblad product to do that!
David
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do you mean for example being able to load a levels adjustment that takes pure white to 254,252,254 or something? If so then you can do this in curves or levels by creating a preset.
I think you mean it the other way round, as i can't find what I am looking for... But please correct me if I am wrong, because this is a feature I use all the time...
see the attached pics:
phocus doesn't support it at all
[attachment=11887:phocus.jpg]
and in C1 v3 it is like this, this is what I need :-)
[attachment=11888:c1_3.jpg]
C1 4 allows it only on the whole rgb, not in the individual channels, which is why I still use C1 v3
[attachment=11889:c1_4.jpg]
thanks for listening,
martin
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Ok Martin, Understood.
I agree that is quite a useful feature and will enquire.
You can set your threshold points on the Hlight/Shadow warning but I understand what your asking for is a little different and equally useful.
Best,
David
EDIT -> This option is already planned at some point in the future for Phocus.
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Nick Nick Nick...
Are you still beating Hassy's drum for them....? Why...?
As you know I and another Brit photographer here in NYC stuck to Hasselblad 2 yrs ago about how bad their backs were for interior shots on 3 sec exposures, we compared the backs with Phase backs and voila' there was the problem, the quality of the filer over the back...
Needless to say Hassy changed the filter when the H3D-II came out (good for them to Listen).
However... going back to your initial thread I was the one being honest about Hassy's lack of help and I have plenty of experience with H and V systems.
The problems are still there, even if you get a dedcent rep to look after you.
1. A $220 battery grip that still doesn't last a full mornings hard shooting (doing a catalog with two models)
2. Free Phocus.. whoopee it STILL doesn't work and you STILL need to upgrade your 'puters video card to a very high end unit ($300 minimum) not free then, unless you have all day to wait for thumbs.
3. The 28mm lens... relies too much of software to correct it FACT... sure you can tweak the final images but last time i looked we were photographers not computer tweakers, it's just one more step in the way, like the 3fff file system and not being able to open a file in ANY industry standard software... Some agencies like to work with a photographer and play with a raw file... 'err Nick... I can't open this Hassy RAW in photoshop dude... WTF...?'
Not very professional really.
I haven't even got time to go one about the closed back system but just take a look at the threads on the Yahoo hasselblad group... ouch... very scary..
No camera is perfect or ever will be but a so called 'highest, biggest, best' available with such a fab pedigree and costing so much should be....
It just isn't
Simple workflow using Phase One or Leaf on an H2 or a Mamiya or a Contax
Click... image(s) fed to Capture One-Lightroom-Leaf... first file tweaked... saved preset and applied to each new file coming in.... Job fiished client happy, wants his/her DVD.
Click.. DVD burning RAW's/Tiff's (was that 8 or 16 bit sir/Ma'am?)
Hassy workflow using Flex or Phocus
Click... image(s) fed to Phocus........................wait......... there you go... apply tweak..... oh... somethings wrong... colours all off... (ah yes Phocus has problems with certain worksations and colour profiles..sorry)...... job 25% done... still waiting for 19% of images to show up on the screen... battery goes flat... new battery... first 5 images all wrong... need to reset exposure settings again with battery change..(sorry).... Job eventually finished around midnight... client wants DNG's .. ok.... wait...... err sorry can I drop them off tomorrow my 'puter will need 1 or 2 or 3 hrs to convert everything to DNG... 'ok just give me the raw's..... err ok... sorry but you cannot read the RAW's... even in Photoshop...!
err sorry... lost client....
S
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I think you mean it the other way round, as i can't find what I am looking for... But please correct me if I am wrong, because this is a feature I use all the time...
see the attached pics:
phocus doesn't support it at all
[attachment=11887:phocus.jpg]
and in C1 v3 it is like this, this is what I need :-)
[attachment=11888:c1_3.jpg]
C1 4 allows it only on the whole rgb, not in the individual channels, which is why I still use C1 v3
[attachment=11889:c1_4.jpg]
thanks for listening,
martin
Hi Martin
I think phocus CAN do what you want, see screenshots:
[attachment=11912:Picture_2.png]
[attachment=11911:Picture_3.png]
[attachment=11910:Picture_4.png]
[attachment=11909:Picture_6.png]
Nick-T
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Hi Nick,
I am sorry, but it can't. I need it the other way round! Your method puts for example the lights from 245 to 255. I want to put them from 255 to 245, which results in grey whites and grey blacks. This is especially helpful in the channels, for example you can have your shadows blue and your highlights yellow. Anybody remebers how polaroid 669 looks or Kodak EPR pulled half a stop?
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I find Photoshop a much better tool for stuff like that. I use Phocus merely to get the highest quality fairly flat Tiff/PSD everything else is done in PS. I do want to have the f-stop scales on the histogram (like Flexcolor), so I can see how far of I am from clipping.
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Hi Dustbak,
if you don't have a client lookin over your shoulder and at the eizo all day, wanting to see what it will look like, your approach might be fine...
In my situation it is essential to get the look as close as possible to the one I have in mind during shooting, every new capture has to look like it is supposed to be. No, yeah I will do that later in PS, that's just not an option if your client wants to have a hd with like 200-500 tiffs at the end of the day.
cheers
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That is correct, but unless you are now using the export on capture function in Phocus you are not going to be able to deliver a HD with 200-500tiffs at the end of the day. If you do happen to use that and carry around the necessary processing power you could also process a droplet or action to get to the final stage. I have even asked on more than one occasion to be able to invoke an action or droplet upon exporting FFF/3FR files just for this purpose.
On location I have always a client looking over my shoulder and if need be I can show them how it will eventually turn out (more or less). For most that is satisfactory.
Anyway, there are about a kazilion ways of doing it and everybody has its own preferences. I don't let my client walk out with a HD filled with Tiffs. I mostly process in the evening/night and have it available on my FTP server in the morning.
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Of course I could us an action in ps but why should I? Why should i make things even more complicated, more time consuming (and still it won't show up on my screen every time i press the button...) Just because such a simple thing is not implemented in the software? And why is it not possible to deliever 500 tiffs in the evening? is phocus that slow? In the studio I normally use two computers, one for tethering and one for editing and developing, never had a problem.
Whatever, I shouldn't have started this anyways, but Mr. Grover, if you are still listening, it would be a nice "pro" feature to have in phocus, think about it.
I like to shoot with he h2, and maybe someday when phase is gone or if just can't find any h2s anymore, then an H3,4,5 might be the camera for me. At the moment it just isn't. just for me and my way of working.
cheers