Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: jing q on February 17, 2009, 10:53:04 am
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http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/t...persync_fpsync/ (http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/hypersync_fpsync/)
Does this mean that my Mamiya AFd just got alot more useful???
Do we still need leaf shutters??
even if it improves the 1/125 flash sync to just 1/250 it's still infinitely more useful
I can't wait to get more information on this
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No, these devices are for Canon cameras.
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if you got to rob's site, there are some tests with different cameras/formats and wireless systems....the smaller the sensor, the better this works (obviously)...but even the 5DII only gets a 1/3 or maybe 2/3 of a stop faster sync speed....so i don't think 1/250 will be possible....but anything helps.....
there is the other part of the hyperspeed sync that might work better.....the one where the shutter uses the flashlight as it is dying, so the light is a lot weaker and there obviously some major issues with consistency (output and color)....but the sync speeds might get all the way to 1/1000 with this.....i think with some newer higher end studio systems this shoudl be an option....something to look into.....
this could be so much better if this technology was built into the packs or heads! in that case the PW would not have to anticipate or guess.....i think that would be a real step up.....
either way...a brilliant solution....amazing nobody had come up with that earlier.....
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if you got to rob's site, there are some tests with different cameras/formats and wireless systems....the smaller the sensor, the better this works (obviously)...but even the 5DII only gets a 1/3 or maybe 2/3 of a stop faster sync speed....so i don't think 1/250 will be possible....but anything helps.....
there is the other part of the hyperspeed sync that might work better.....the one where the shutter uses the flashlight as it is dying, so the light is a lot weaker and there obviously some major issues with consistency (output and color)....but the sync speeds might get all the way to 1/1000 with this.....i think with some newer higher end studio systems this shoudl be an option....something to look into.....
this could be so much better if this technology was built into the packs or heads! in that case the PW would not have to anticipate or guess.....i think that would be a real step up.....
either way...a brilliant solution....amazing nobody had come up with that earlier.....
i actually used to experiment with the Multimax this way: I'd set a delay on the strobe for a fraction of a second, so that the flash syncs with a faster shutter speed that would usually result in a black frame.
but this was very dependent on the flash duration of the pack which changed at different power settings of course.
Big problem here is that I'm using profoto packs which have a pretty short flash duration, so the delay has to be much more accurate than with other packs...
yes it's great that such technology is available now. my canon just got alot more attractive to use.
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So ... how is a flash sync of 1/500 help Canon users? As far as I know the maximum flash sync on a Canon is 1/250 on the 1Ds MkIII.
This might be useful for medium format users... but these are not made for medium format.
I don't get it.
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So ... how is a flash sync of 1/500 help Canon users? As far as I know the maximum flash sync on a Canon is 1/250 on the 1Ds MkIII.
This might be useful for medium format users... but these are not made for medium format.
I don't get it.
well I shoot outdoors with ambient and strobe lighting.
having the 1/500s option is a big help.
esp for reducing ghosting
edit:I just reread your statement....
it allows Canon users to override the 1/250th flash sync speed and flash sync at 1/500th of a second!
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well I shoot outdoors with ambient and strobe lighting.
having the 1/500s option is a big help.
esp for reducing ghosting
edit:I just reread your statement....
it allows Canon users to override the 1/250th flash sync speed and flash sync at 1/500th of a second!
not sure if im understanding this, i how will they will get 500th second out a focal plane shutter (with a powerpack). i thought the shutter didnt completely open at higher than 250th of a sec. sure if the powerpack has a low flash duration itself, but any modern flash would cause the shutter to "caught" in the exposure.
i know how the canon flash units work, but arnt pw saying that you can get that performance out of packs.
unless, canons shutters really are open completely at 500th of a sec, but rate them at 250th to make up for slow syncing flash?
paul
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That's pretty much what I'm thinking of too.
Can I get the 1/500 sync speed on my backup camera, canon 5d, with my elinchrom ranger with a heads?
If so, on all power settings?
If so, the hassy is gonna have to rest a little bit more on the coming shoots :-)
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I may be mistaken but the Flash triggering device has nothing to do with whether the/a camera can sync higher or not.
Can some one prove or state otherwise.
What the heck would the pocket wizard device have to do with the in camera curtain....???
I think most in here are dreaming or wishful thinking but it aint going to happen. It would certainly make mamiya think twice about producing a new leafshutter lens.
Don't think it is as simple as you al are stating here..:+}
Hope I am wrong.
Snook
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Go read the review and explanation at Rob Galbraith's site.
We're talking about studio/location strobes here, NOT speedlights. The high-speed sync option uses the new PW to trigger the flash slightly *before* the shutter opens. Then the shutter is open during the "tail" of the flash duration, when it acts something like a continuous light. Needless to say, how well it works depends entirely on the model of flash one uses, as well as which Canon camera.
Go see the review. It's quite comprehensive.
http://tinyurl.com/cfr2um (http://tinyurl.com/cfr2um)
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http://radiopopper.com/blog/?p=69 (http://radiopopper.com/blog/?p=69)
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not sure if im understanding this, i how will they will get 500th second out a focal plane shutter (with a powerpack). i thought the shutter didnt completely open at higher than 250th of a sec. sure if the powerpack has a low flash duration itself, but any modern flash would cause the shutter to "caught" in the exposure.
i know how the canon flash units work, but arnt pw saying that you can get that performance out of packs.
unless, canons shutters really are open completely at 500th of a sec, but rate them at 250th to make up for slow syncing flash?
paul
huh?
if the shutter isn't fully open then how does it actually capture an image?
closed shutter = no image
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after reading robGs tests, its not very exciting news.
looks like you need a slow flash duration (no 10,000th sec with a bron), and its only going to give you 250th sec. i get 250th sec with a hard wired sync .
i thought it sounded too good to be true.. or at least true with a 1dsmk3.
paul
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after reading robGs tests, its not very exciting news.
looks like you need a slow flash duration (no 10,000th sec with a bron), and its only going to give you 250th sec. i get 250th sec with a hard wired sync .
i thought it sounded too good to be true.. or at least true with a 1dsmk3.
paul
I get 320/th somtimes with my 1DsMII with only a slight blackness to the edge which I take of by compositing a little further out...:+}
Sounds like BS to me!
Marketing BS in any case..
I do like the lower profile of the unit and do not know why PW did not redesign the stupid thing a long time ago.
Snook
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huh?
if the shutter isn't fully open then how does it actually capture an image?
closed shutter = no image
heres my explanation of focal plane shutters (please correct me if anyone knows this better)
on a focal plane shutter, there are two curtains, it starts with the first curtain opening, then follows with the second curtain closing.
at lower shutter speeds, the first curtain opens completely before the second curtain starts to close.
these are the usual "flash sync" speeds. but at higher speeds, the second curtain actually starts closing before the first has opened completely.
this is how you get the shutter caught by the flash. you will get a dark band(the shutter) at the bottom of a horizontal shot (on a newish nikon or canon).
on real fast speeds, ie 1000 sec, the second curtain follows the first curtain so close, you effectively have a thin strip of the "opening" flying across the frame.
this, with ambient light doesnt cause any problems, it just turns into a small, fast exposure. but with flash, especially with a really fast duration- faster than the shutter speed, theres no way to expose the frame with the complete journey of the shutter across the frame, so the shutter itself gets exposed.
canon speed lights work differently though (as far as i understand), they flash multiple times very quickly during the exposure, so therefore effectively covers the shutters journey across the frame.
paul
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I get 320/th somtimes with my 1DsMII with only a slight blackness to the edge which I take of by compositing a little further out...:+}
Sounds like BS to me!
Marketing BS in any case..
I do like the lower profile of the unit and do not know why PW did not redesign the stupid thing a long time ago.
Snook
is this with a PW? i was doing a test shoot yesterday with my brons and using PW plus. i could only get 200th sec, and some days when shooting light bgs (so the dark band can be seen), only 125. pretty stink, when PW claim 250th flash sync with focal plane shutters!
when i use the sync cord to trigger, i get a full 250th sec sync.
paul
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the problem with wireless sync is the delay after one hits the shutter, and when the pack actually receives the signal to "pop flash NOW".....most flash duration is much shorter then 1/250 of a sec....
so these new triggers simply time it so you maximise the time available for the full frame exposure....which will be different for every camera, flash and combination.....
obviously the smaller the sensor, the high the sync speed.....
these units don't work on MF cameras at all, probably due to digital timing control.....
don't forget: the nikons, canons can sync up to 1/8000 with their system flashes!
looking at rob's review one can expect about 1/3 to 2/3 realistc improvement after testing and some adjustments....not bad at all IMO.....
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actually I still can't figure out why there isn't a possibility of relying on the back to set the X-sync rather than relying on the shutter.
on the old Nikon D70 I could flash sync up to 1/2000th of a second (the maximum shutter speed) even though it wasn't officially supported.
I believe the exposure was dependent on the sensor rather than the shutter.
Why can't this be done with a DB? If the DB is the one that sets the exposure, takes an image for 1/1000th of a second then doesn't record any more than that.
Would need close integration with the camera but these days the camera companies and DB makers are working closely. I'm sure a firmware update can make it happen.
there was some talk about needing to take a black frame blah blah but if some MFDB company could figure it out and work in tandem with the camera company to develop a solution that would be a BIG selling point.
Mamiya! how about it. So we will stop bitching about your horrendous flash sync capabilities.
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actually I still can't figure out why there isn't a possibility of relying on the back to set the X-sync rather than relying on the shutter.
on the old Nikon D70 I could flash sync up to 1/2000th of a second (the maximum shutter speed) even though it wasn't officially supported.
I believe the exposure was dependent on the sensor rather than the shutter.
Why can't this be done with a DB? If the DB is the one that sets the exposure, takes an image for 1/1000th of a second then doesn't record any more than that.
Would need close integration with the camera but these days the camera companies and DB makers are working closely. I'm sure a firmware update can make it happen.
there was some talk about needing to take a black frame blah blah but if some MFDB company could figure it out and work in tandem with the camera company to develop a solution that would be a BIG selling point.
Mamiya! how about it. So we will stop bitching about your horrendous flash sync capabilities.
the nikon (and canon) can only work at that sync by using their own brand flashes. the high sync flashes work by flashing a few times really quickly, like strobe effect, to cover the curtain travel. it wont work with fast studio flash units.
paul
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the nikon (and canon) can only work at that sync by using their own brand flashes. the high sync flashes work by flashing a few times really quickly, like strobe effect, to cover the curtain travel. it wont work with fast studio flash units.
paul
paul, no this is not true.
I shot with 2 Elinchrom 600s monoblocs with a D70 at 1/1000th of a second before.
It worked. After that I couldn't find another dslr that did the same trick. If you can find a friend with a d70 you can give it a shot
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is this with a PW? i was doing a test shoot yesterday with my brons and using PW plus. i could only get 200th sec, and some days when shooting light bgs (so the dark band can be seen), only 125. pretty stink, when PW claim 250th flash sync with focal plane shutters!
when i use the sync cord to trigger, i get a full 250th sec sync.
paul
You need to know I shoot with the Pocket wizard MAX which supposedly has a higher flash rating.
I get 250th and sometimes clean 320 with Canon and Profoto 7A and acutes
Snook
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Gabriel, posting at DPR, worked out a hypersync method using a Sony A700 and A900, obtaining syncs from 1/250 to 1/8000 sec:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...0308&page=1 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1037&thread=30850308&page=1)
His work has been verified by others with several flash units including Quantums, Interfit, Elinchrom, Broncolor (this unit with 1/250 for the flash duration setting on powerpack) and Profoto (this unit with 1/750 for the flash duration setting on powerpack).
David Kilpatrick at PhotoClubAlpha had ideas as to why some flashes worked and other may not:
http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/viewto...f=10&t=1881 (http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1881)
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paul, no this is not true.
I shot with 2 Elinchrom 600s monoblocs with a D70 at 1/1000th of a second before.
It worked. After that I couldn't find another dslr that did the same trick. If you can find a friend with a d70 you can give it a shot
thats cool. i was just saying how i understood how things work. not sure how the d70 can do that, unless the flash duration covers the whole shutter cycle of the d70.
paul
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You need to know I shoot with the Pocket wizard MAX which supposedly has a higher flash rating.
I get 250th and sometimes clean 320 with Canon and Profoto 7A and acutes
Snook
pw claims 250th for the plus, but i havnt managed that. but i do use the h1 up to 800th and can hardly notice any drop off (i loose maybe 1/4 stop).
paul
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Gabriel, posting at DPR, worked out a hypersync method using a Sony A700 and A900, obtaining syncs from 1/250 to 1/8000 sec:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...0308&page=1 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1037&thread=30850308&page=1)
His work has been verified by others with several flash units including Quantums, Interfit, Elinchrom, Broncolor (this unit with 1/250 for the flash duration setting on powerpack) and Profoto (this unit with 1/750 for the flash duration setting on powerpack).
David Kilpatrick at PhotoClubAlpha had ideas as to why some flashes worked and other may not:
http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/viewto...f=10&t=1881 (http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1881)
i thought you would need to reduce the duration of a bron for it to work (duration can be dialed in on a bron grafit). but will it still be good for freezing action. i guess so at 8000th. i wonder what the power gets cut down to on the flash.
this is cool, i shots a lot of action, it would be nice to mix flash and ambient at a high shutter speed.
paul
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I was just at the WPPI show. The Mac Group rep mentioned the new PW when we ran into each other. Unfortunately, I never made it by the booth to check it out. He told me that it could do 1/500 on my 5D with my Profoto 7b strobe. If that's true, that's HUGE news! I'm going to give it a test - if it checks out, I may just sell my MFDB set up and go with the 5D MII. Same MP for a heck of a lot less money.
One of the main reasons I use MF is for the faster sync speed. Usually, I'm at 1/320 to balance strobes to daylight so this would work out very nicely. If true of course.
John
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This is my first post on the forum so I'd like to thank all of you for the information I've picked up here over the years.
I followed the link to dpr that was posted earlier and have adapted GB Software inc' s method with the Sony A900 on my Canon 5d.
I can get the Canon 5d to sync at 1/8000th of a sec with my bowens traveller packs & heads. See the exif in the following picture, this is a picture of one of the heads firing against a wall.
[attachment=11641:IMG_5166_LL.jpg]
The reason this seems to work is that the Bowens has quite a long flash duration, approx 1/700th of a sec.
I place a Canon 430 or 580 ex flash gun on to the hotshoe, set the flash to M and also to the high sync setting. I then connect the elinchrom skyport transmitter and the slave cell as illustrated and connect the skyport receiver to the bowens power pack.
[attachment=11642:IMG_5198_setup_1.jpg]
I fire the flash in the opposite direction as seen on the pic. Sorry it's a bit heath robinson with the elastic bands, I just needed something that would suffice for testing!
[attachment=11643:IMG_5203_setup_2.jpg]
At first I didn't think it was working and then realised that I needed to up the power on the packs. I found I needed between 1000-3000w depending on the shutter speed and aperture. I would imagine this set up would also work with other packs & heads with a slowish flash duration.
Adrian.
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wonderful, thanks!
I tested a D70 with Profoto Acute2 packs in the past and managed up to 1/500th of a second before I started losing some exposure value.
I'm going to try this method with my AFd and ProB2 packs.
I think there may be some variation in terms of the brand of flash used and also the brand of slave cell used.
Will be interesting to see what works.
What's interesting to me is that it seems to make alot more sense than the technical information the new pocketwizards seem to be saying which is to trigger the flash EARLIER than the shutter, whereas in this DIY method the flash is trigger slightly LATER so that it allows the shutter time to activate first.
This is my first post on the forum so I'd like to thank all of you for the information I've picked up here over the years.
I followed the link to dpr that was posted earlier and have adapted GB Software inc' s method with the Sony A900 on my Canon 5d.
I can get the Canon 5d to sync at 1/8000th of a sec with my bowens traveller packs & heads. See the exif in the following picture, this is a picture of one of the heads firing against a wall.
[attachment=11641:IMG_5166_LL.jpg]
The reason this seems to work is that the Bowens has quite a long flash duration, approx 1/700th of a sec.
I place a Canon 430 or 580 ex flash gun on to the hotshoe, set the flash to M and also to the high sync setting. I then connect the elinchrom skyport transmitter and the slave cell as illustrated and connect the skyport receiver to the bowens power pack.
[attachment=11642:IMG_5198_setup_1.jpg]
I fire the flash in the opposite direction as seen on the pic. Sorry it's a bit heath robinson with the elastic bands, I just needed something that would suffice for testing!
[attachment=11643:IMG_5203_setup_2.jpg]
At first I didn't think it was working and then realised that I needed to up the power on the packs. I found I needed between 1000-3000w depending on the shutter speed and aperture. I would imagine this set up would also work with other packs & heads with a slowish flash duration.
Adrian.
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wonderful, thanks!
What's interesting to me is that it seems to make alot more sense than the technical information the new pocketwizards seem to be saying which is to trigger the flash EARLIER than the shutter, whereas in this DIY method the flash is trigger slightly LATER so that it allows the shutter time to activate first.
i think i read that somewhere too. how does a PW trigger the flash before the shutter if you use the cameras shutter button?
i guess PW could control that if you used their product to also trigger the shutter of the camera.
the other day i was testing my shutter sync, and i couldnt get the PW to go over 200th on shutter sync, but when i plugged in the sync cord it was fine up to 250th. wouldnt the sync lead be quicker to trigger the flash than the PW? I need to do some serious testing to figure all this out. high sync on my mk3 is a very powerfull tool
paul