Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Easton on January 23, 2009, 08:08:57 am
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Hi!
This forum is where the big pros in the industry seem to conglomerate. I'm hoping you could help a newbie out!
I have read most of the past ZD threads, and some of our issues seem to be quite common (or at least similar).
My finances are tight (i'm 25 so i'm obviously very poor!) and i'm dealing with gear that is worth a fortune to me. So I want to deal with this as carefully and armed with as much knowledge as possible.
And here begins the ZD dilemmas - bare in mind that ALL of these issues occurred within a ONE WEEK shoot!:
- Corrupt CF-Write Issues
This occurs maybe once every 100 exposures. The camera would take the shot and the back would write to the card (red light on) indefinitely (red light never goes off). It will continue writing to the card (and thus not allow further pictures to be taken) for another half hour or so until the battery is completely drained and the back goes off.
Once this happens replacing a new battery will restart the camera and it's ready to take more shots.... however the last file looks like this:
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC0251.jpg)
A relatively minor issue I can maybe live with - because you know it's rooted and you can therefore take action.
- Weird Purple Lines coming out from the left side of highlights
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC0288.jpg)
This occurs very frequently, in fact I'd say it happens more often than not. You think the 5D Mark II black dot issue was bad? This is a complete nightmare! I had to retouch them out before delivering the images to my client.
- Purple Fringes/blooms coming out of the sky
This seems related to the previous issue, again it's coming out towards the left of the highlights.... or is it really bad CA?
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC03901_purple.jpg)
shutter speed was 1/4 second.
- And I don't even know what to call this one...
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC0201.jpg)
Pretty self explanatory, the image just comes out in black and white... and purple (gee, this camera loves purple don't it)
The ENTIRE series of images shot for those setup came out like this. But the shutter speed was long (around 10seconds at ISO 50) but I have NOT been able to repeat this since.
- There is also an issue where the two (body and back) seem to fail to communicate randomly. I happens relatively frequently (at least a few times whenever I take the camera out for some shots) and the back would be awake and ready but the body would complain that the dback isn't ready.
Although it's a simple solution (just open the battery compartment and reclose it, then reset the camera body) it's been the MOST pain in the arse issue of them all.
For one of the shots we rigged the camera up to the car, and the driver was going to do some high speed drift/oversteering around a corner. I pocket wizard'ed up the camera and always tested it.
It happened on MANY occasions where the camera simply wouldn't fire at the heavy-choreographed setup. Piss off the driver ("Sorry - could you do that again? Didn't get the shot") and simply embaressing.
This all happened on my FIRST commercial photoshoot. Although the shoot went undeniably well and the client was ecstatic. The results do not reflect the challenges I had to face during that week.
I was so glad that I brought my Canon 1Ds Mark II along, it worked flawlessly without failure, and thats why the "action rig shots" were then taken with the Canon from then on.
Now the questions:
1: Are these issues built into the ZD design, and i'm expected live with them. Or do I have a lemon?
2: In my situation what would you do? Ask for a new ZD back (although if they did it'd be replaced with a double buffer version, because mine is not)? Ask a Phase One (or other brand) back and then you cover the cost difference? Would that be fair to ask, and what if they won't?
I am considering an upgrade to a Phase One back, even something as simple as a refurbished P21. I'm satisfied with the ZD's image quality but it's the reliability that i'm struggling with.
I have shown these problems to the dealer where I purchased the equipment from (Mamiya AFDIII + ZD + 80mm kit) and I have supplied them a CD of these RAW files for them to inspect. They've told me that they're evaluating the problems and looking for solutions.
I'll be honest - I want a different back!! (Sorry if that sounds childish!)
They are a Mamiya/Phase One dealer, if they won't help me, then I would resort to going to another dealer and looking into a Leaf Aptus refurbished. Unfortunately in Australia we are very short on options with dealers to go to.
3: Are these issues exclusive to the Mamiya, or will they be found in other brand backs as well? i.e if I want reliability - leave MFDB's
4: Is it wrong for me to think that, considering this is designed for high-end paid professional photography, that this is gobsmackingly unacceptable?
I should also note that this is my SECOND ZD back, I had it swapped with a replacement within a week after I purchased the system as there were OTHER problems with that back. I don't know if that back would have these issues as well because I didn't even test it far or long enough to find out!
I am not complaining about the slow buffer, frame rate or LCD screen. I knew what I was getting into when purchasing this back, but i wasn't expecting these reliability issues.
*Also, if there's something i've said/done/asked thats stupid - please pardon my newbie-ness!
THANKS for your help in advance. I'm sorry the thread is so long but you can probably tell i'm very concerned at the moment!
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May I please ask if you are using a UV filter?
tom
Hi!
This forum is where the big pros in the industry seem to conglomerate. I'm hoping you could help a newbie out!
I have read most of the past ZD threads, and some of our issues seem to be quite common (or at least similar).
My finances are tight (i'm 25 so i'm obviously very poor!) and i'm dealing with gear that is worth a fortune to me. So I want to deal with this as carefully and armed with as much knowledge as possible.
And here begins the ZD dilemmas - bare in mind that ALL of these issues occurred within a ONE WEEK shoot!:
- Corrupt CF-Write Issues
This occurs maybe once every 100 exposures. The camera would take the shot and the back would write to the card (red light on) indefinitely (red light never goes off). It will continue writing to the card (and thus not allow further pictures to be taken) for another half hour or so until the battery is completely drained and the back goes off.
Once this happens replacing a new battery will restart the camera and it's ready to take more shots.... however the last file looks like this:
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC0251.jpg)
A relatively minor issue I can maybe live with - because you know it's rooted and you can therefore take action.
- Weird Purple Lines coming out from the left side of highlights
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC0288.jpg)
This occurs very frequently, in fact I'd say it happens more often than not. You think the 5D Mark II black dot issue was bad? This is a complete nightmare! I had to retouch them out before delivering the images to my client.
- Purple Fringes/blooms coming out of the sky
This seems related to the previous issue, again it's coming out towards the left of the highlights.... or is it really bad CA?
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC03901_purple.jpg)
shutter speed was 1/4 second.
- And I don't even know what to call this one...
(http://www.eastonchang.com/landscape/MMFC0201.jpg)
Pretty self explanatory, the image just comes out in black and white... and purple (gee, this camera loves purple don't it)
The ENTIRE series of images shot for those setup came out like this. But the shutter speed was long (around 10seconds at ISO 50) but I have NOT been able to repeat this since.
- There is also an issue where the two (body and back) seem to fail to communicate randomly. I happens relatively frequently (at least a few times whenever I take the camera out for some shots) and the back would be awake and ready but the body would complain that the dback isn't ready.
Although it's a simple solution (just open the battery compartment and reclose it, then reset the camera body) it's been the MOST pain in the arse issue of them all.
For one of the shots we rigged the camera up to the car, and the driver was going to do some high speed drift/oversteering around a corner. I pocket wizard'ed up the camera and always tested it.
It happened on MANY occasions where the camera simply wouldn't fire at the heavy-choreographed setup. Piss off the driver ("Sorry - could you do that again? Didn't get the shot") and simply embaressing.
This all happened on my FIRST commercial photoshoot. Although the shoot went undeniably well and the client was ecstatic. The results do not reflect the challenges I had to face during that week.
I was so glad that I brought my Canon 1Ds Mark II along, it worked flawlessly without failure, and thats why the "action rig shots" were then taken with the Canon from then on.
Now the questions:
1: Are these issues built into the ZD design, and i'm expected live with them. Or do I have a lemon?
2: In my situation what would you do? Ask for a new ZD back (although if they did it'd be replaced with a double buffer version, because mine is not)? Ask a Phase One (or other brand) back and then you cover the cost difference? Would that be fair to ask, and what if they won't?
I am considering an upgrade to a Phase One back, even something as simple as a refurbished P21. I'm satisfied with the ZD's image quality but it's the reliability that i'm struggling with.
I have shown these problems to the dealer where I purchased the equipment from (Mamiya AFDIII + ZD + 80mm kit) and I have supplied them a CD of these RAW files for them to inspect. They've told me that they're evaluating the problems and looking for solutions.
I'll be honest - I want a different back!! (Sorry if that sounds childish!)
They are a Mamiya/Phase One dealer, if they won't help me, then I would resort to going to another dealer and looking into a Leaf Aptus refurbished. Unfortunately in Australia we are very short on options with dealers to go to.
3: Are these issues exclusive to the Mamiya, or will they be found in other brand backs as well? i.e if I want reliability - leave MFDB's
4: Is it wrong for me to think that, considering this is designed for high-end paid professional photography, that this is gobsmackingly unacceptable?
I should also note that this is my SECOND ZD back, I had it swapped with a replacement within a week after I purchased the system as there were OTHER problems with that back. I don't know if that back would have these issues as well because I didn't even test it far or long enough to find out!
I am not complaining about the slow buffer, frame rate or LCD screen. I knew what I was getting into when purchasing this back, but i wasn't expecting these reliability issues.
*Also, if there's something i've said/done/asked thats stupid - please pardon my newbie-ness!
THANKS for your help in advance. I'm sorry the thread is so long but you can probably tell i'm very concerned at the moment!
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May I please ask if you are using a UV filter?
Could I ask you *not* to quote a huge post, just to add one line? The context is just above...
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May I please ask if you are using a UV filter?
tom
No UV filters, but some of the "motion" shots are using Neutral Density filters to cut sunlight. In particular the shot where it's just black/white/purple.
Polarizers may have been used.
The shot with the purple fringes near the sky, and the horizontal lines near the highlights though happen with/without any filters.
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Hard to really pinpoint what is exactly happening and I think most of us would guess at different issues and mostly likely be pretty close. But I had a Zd for couple months before getting a Phase P25 plus and never ran into anything like this. It seems to me it is the electronics to the sensor itself that may have some sort of short or something, reason being there is no real consistency in the bad images and than you get good ones also. I would not play around with this and not sure who your dealer is on this but I would not be happy at all. Not sure of your circumstances on how long you had it or if it was new or used but i would first send some images to Mamiya and see if there is a known issue and than get your money back , get it fixed or move onto a Phase P21 Plus back. First the Phase will not give you battery issues and is much more durable in the field and frankly having one they just flat out work all the time. For commercial use i just would move up which is exactly what I did myself. At the end of the day the ZD is nice but also has some limitations and some of those reasons battery, ISO limits, speed , LCD and such are the very reasons i moved up myself and very happy with that decision. I have never lost a image due to the back or body itself and for commercial shooting you need that dependability. Simple answer find a way to move up , you will ultimately be happier in the end.
I should add some things could be a corrupt card but looking at all the issues i can't see it being everything here.
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I've had a ZD and AFDII almost a year and never had a purple problem. I see other people talk about a purple problem though. Out of thousands of shots I only had one or two corrupted ones.
On every camera I have I format the card in camera first. It helps with Canon, I don't know if it helps with ZD. The ZD won't give me an accurate shots remaining if I don't format in the camera.
I have a lot of lockups, perhaps one in a hundred without changing lenses or anything else. Sometimes it just goes away, sometimes I need to remove batteries. People wonder why I didn't take the picture when I should have. When I change lenses I remove the batteries.
I like to focus then recompose with a half press, if I wait too long before a full press the camera won't take the picture.
Bill
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hi easton,
1: you defenately have a defective zd back.
2: I would certainly ask for a new back, or/and - if you can do it without loosing much money - move to a different brand. if you have to stay with mamiya, I would move at least to a zd camera (not the back) at least you don´t get the connection problems between back and the body you describt here.
3: I have never seen anything like this on my zd camera - it´s simply a defective unit and certainly not accceptable from any brand. make sure that back goes back to mamiya.
I am using a zd since over two years and apart from the slight frontfocus and the wobbely firewire-connection (I usualy don´t thether and never autofocus) it performed flawless during that time.
so i am quite happy with my zd and it´s image quality. I do find it to be overly sensitive to mix artificial light and the resulting green and magenta casts. and the 10-15 sec. exposure limits can be annoying.
just on my last commercial shoot yesterday I had to put the zd away because of the colorshifts and resort to my 5D (and suffer the consequences today at postprocessing the 5D-files. )
from a different perspective: that first image looks quite cool, perhaps your back has artistic ambitions. I would consider to keep using the back and making those images my trademark .
I wish you good luck dealing with your dealer and mamiya
stefan
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Hi!
This forum is where the big pros in the industry seem to conglomerate. I'm hoping you could help a newbie out!
Easton,
First, it's congregrate
Search for Anders_HK posts (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=ac73e3e34ea4219336f2a938fc86ad11&search_in=posts&result_type=posts) for his experience with the ZD.
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isn't it "congregate", Billy?
Cheers,
Thierry
First, it's congregrate
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You're correct, Thierry.
: Billy is forced to resign from Spelling Police in shame :
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Easton, go for PhaseOne, Like Guy said, just find the way to get a Phase back... I own a P45+ and I'm 24 years old... I don't have much money too, but I tested the two back side by side a Phase it's an other dimension, it's better from all points of view, it's not just the pixels or 1/3 stop more dynamic range, It's the structure, the built quality, the workflow, the long exposure and more more. The only problem I have is in the exif files, when I change the lens the back doesn't recognize the lens, it says 1mm lens or no lens, so every time I change the lens I have to chenage the mode in the camera, for exemple from M to P, then the back knows wich lens I'm using. But never, NEVER, problems like yours...
Did I say that I love my P45+?
my best
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I think any current owner of a back will say buy this buy that, and in some ways I am doing the same, but here's my simple take.
An Aptus 22 uses the same sensor and puts the ZD back to shame. My Aptus 22 has been flawless for a year and a half. Leaf Capture has helped to make it even a tiny bit better in tethering (already rock solid tethering).
You can find used Aptus 22 backs in H and Mamiya mounts almost several times a month here in the for sale section, ebay and other places. They can be had for somewhere in the $6-7K I'm sure. Basically what a ZD back costs and a hell of a lot better.
I know Mamiya has tried hard with the ZD but I don't see them continuing with newer versions and updates may taper off next few years for the current model.
If you're having this much trouble with the back, get something else for your client/paid work that is hassle free.
my two cent
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my two cent
DITTO
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I'm not going to tell you which back to buy. I will tell you what I feel the problem is though. I believe that most filter companies have been caught sleeping with digital. I know that ND and almost every polarizer I have ever tried has a colour cast and if used in conjunction they create wonky results.(http://durstonphoto.com/photos/test/RDP_20080405_01686.jpg) This image is a B&W polarizer and a Heliopan polarizer combined.
I know with my B&W 110 ND3.0 I get a weird magenta/yellow shift even though B&W swear the filter is neutral. I know years ago the old Kodak Wratten ND 3.0 was like 40y.
So I would think it is the non neutral filtration along with perhaps a first batch (bad magenta blotch) ZD back.
As far as the left trailing streak, I saw the same thing in a Hasselblad H3dII back a couple of months ago. When I told the rep about it and sent him the file he said it was a bad batch of AA filters and that they were about to swap them all out with new ones. So, maybe the AA filter on yours is also giving you grief.
Either way, I second everyone else and agree that no matter your age or how many jobs you have under your belt, if you want a replacement or your money back you should get it. Good luck.
Your images are great BTW
rob
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Easton,
First, it's congregrate
Search for Anders_HK posts (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=ac73e3e34ea4219336f2a938fc86ad11&search_in=posts&result_type=posts) for his experience with the ZD.
I knew I would have said something wrong!
It sounds like my ZD has a myriad of separate issues, electronic/sensor and built-in design faults. But you all seem to agree that I should be able to get a refund or an opportunity to trade up to another back.
michele, you have my dream back! But thanks for the words of confidence with the Phase One.
I don't think my dilemma is so much which brand to move to, as they all seem a heck more reliable than my ZD. It's just a matter of trading up with the minimal loss/cost as possible.
I bought the back brand new (part of the Mamiya AFDIII + 80mm kit) from my local authorized dealer.
I have owned the back for 6 months, I could not show these images/issues to the dealer earlier because the images/car/shoot was embargoed up until recently.
Thanks for all your help! I will write more soon but i've uploaded some more (RAW) samples of issues here:
http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/ (http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/)
The "purple fringing" off bright areas seem to happen at any shutter speed with any lens without any filters.
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bill your experiences with the back sounds familiar to me as well, but it also seems to confirm I have a defective back.
I'm sorry if I haven't directly replied everyone as I'm on the run and posting on the mobile, but I wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and feedback!
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I had the ZD camera for 2.5 years & had very few problems with it ( sold it last month). With the new 5DII camera coming out along with cameras from Sony & Nikon I felt the 22 mp MFD backs have a limited shelf life. The Aptus 22 is an excellent back though & has way better SW than the Mamiya. I just saw one on eBay today starting at $5000.00 USD.
Denis
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I knew I would have said something wrong!
It sounds like my ZD has a myriad of separate issues, electronic/sensor and built-in design faults. But you all seem to agree that I should be able to get a refund or an opportunity to trade up to another back.
michele, you have my dream back! But thanks for the words of confidence with the Phase One.
I don't think my dilemma is so much which brand to move to, as they all seem a heck more reliable than my ZD. It's just a matter of trading up with the minimal loss/cost as possible.
I bought the back brand new (part of the Mamiya AFDIII + 80mm kit) from my local authorized dealer.
I have owned the back for 6 months, I could not show these images/issues to the dealer earlier because the images/car/shoot was embargoed up until recently.
Thanks for all your help! I will write more soon but i've uploaded some more (RAW) samples of issues here:
http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/ (http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/)
The "purple fringing" off bright areas seem to happen at any shutter speed with any lens without any filters.
I really don't care which brand of back you buy as someone pointed that out but any above the level of the ZD will work and you did mention Phase p21 plus which is a good back and having a Mamiya body does make some sense but Leaf would also be a nice choice. The ZD is very nice but to me it is a entry level into MF and i did like it very much myself but after a month or so I realized as a working Pro the limitations of it was something I need to make a upgrade on. Good luck , hope this all works out .
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I used a ZD camera for 2 years before selling it recently in favour of a D3x (I still have my Mamiya lenses though).
I also was pleased with the ZD and never saw many of the issues you are describing, but I was mostyl shooting landascape.
I had some issues with corrupt cards, and could never really figure out why it happened, but I could identify some symptoms (like the image counts that stops changing,...) that enabled me to switch to another card as soon as it happened.
My current assessement of the D3x is that its image quality is superior in absolute terms to that of the ZD (detail, colors, DR and above all lack of artifacts). I am of course not speaking about the other aspects, because the D3x is so incredibly superior that the comparison doesn't even make sense.
Franckly speaking, I would not invest in MF these days on anothing with less than 39MP.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I knew I would have said something wrong!
It sounds like my ZD has a myriad of separate issues, electronic/sensor and built-in design faults. But you all seem to agree that I should be able to get a refund or an opportunity to trade up to another back.
michele, you have my dream back! But thanks for the words of confidence with the Phase One.
I don't think my dilemma is so much which brand to move to, as they all seem a heck more reliable than my ZD. It's just a matter of trading up with the minimal loss/cost as possible.
I bought the back brand new (part of the Mamiya AFDIII + 80mm kit) from my local authorized dealer.
I have owned the back for 6 months, I could not show these images/issues to the dealer earlier because the images/car/shoot was embargoed up until recently.
Thanks for all your help! I will write more soon but i've uploaded some more (RAW) samples of issues here:
http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/ (http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/)
The "purple fringing" off bright areas seem to happen at any shutter speed with any lens without any filters.
As I've posted before, I've gone through my share of issues with the ZD back. I loved it, when it worked. The files coming out of it were amazing. And then other times, they were just awful. Additionally, my first ZD back had am electronics issue. Long story short, I was able to work directly with MAC Group US (distributor of Mamiya in US) to exchange my first back for a replacement. When that second ZD back started exhibiting poor behavior as well, I pushed the issue, got a service manager involved and they helped me upgrade to the new DL28 setup (AFD III and Leaf Aptus II 6 Digital Back). It cost me a bit more but they were very attentive to my issues and cut me a very solid deal.
So, I'd say get in touch (or have your dealer do it) with MAC Group and push, push, push until you get a back you're happy with. Truth be told, I think they'd all wish that the ZD didn't exist, as it sounds as though they get headaches just thinking about them too.
Good luck and keep us posted.
-Josh
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Thanks everyone.
Yeah - the 5D Mark II will replace my 1Ds Mark II, and I think they'll be a narrow gap (or no gap at all!) between that and an Aptus 22.
I would like to use the Canon system for my editorial (bread and butter) work, and MFDB system for my personal work and commercial work where I'm in no rush to shoot by the hip.
Besides the horrendous issues, I am really enjoying the MFDB experience. I had a pretty gadgetry upbringing (Like a lot of new photographers these days, I have never touched film before, and I got into photography after the whole transition thing) and the feel and use of MFDB's is somehow inspiring me to go out and shoot more, work harder, and think more before I shoot. I guess thats just a weird thing going on in my deluded mine.
Based on the responses in this thread I think it's pretty clear now that my ZD is a lemon.
I'm going to forward the images to Mamiya Japan to confirm to my local dealer that the back is indeed buggered and ask for a replacement ZD back.
Then.. if they're willing to trade that new replacement back in, I will opt for a Phase One as it's the only other brand back they distribute at that store. And pay the cost difference.
If they won't trade it back (or the cost difference is unfair) - I will ebay the replacement ZD back and with that cash look towards other options.
The store i'm dealing with is the Australian Phase One/Mamiya dealer, if they don't look after me with this ZD issue than I can look at the "other" store which distributes Sinar and Leaf.
That is, the brand back I go with may end up being decided by the support of the dealer more than anything else. As far as I can tell (with the exception of the ZD) All the other brands will be far more reliable.
Easton-
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Hi Easton.
I know you are young and money is tight, but I think there is one important factor you should include when you choose gear.
Commercial clients are far harder to come by than money to buy equipment. It's a common mistake to make early in the career, buy equipment too cheap and consequently fail to deliver what the client is looking for. If the client is let down, they surely won't come back. Furthermore you need that successful first job to show to the next potential client.
Failure to deliver quality work will constantly send you back to zero, quality work will move your career forward. It only takes a few good clients and the cost of equipment becomes (virtually) irrelevant, as the clients and you career is easily worth the expense.
I know it's a catch 22 to get started, but I think that renting equipment or buying second hand, to get you going is a good way. Then as soon as you have a few paying clients, sink the salaries into upgrading you equipment. Buy only the most essential equipment and rent the bits you only need occasionally.
Car photography is a potentially very lucrative market, but also one where the clients are extremely aware of the technical quality of the work.
Going with a Phase One sounds like a good idea. I have owned one for 6 months and not had a problem or needed service, but I hear it is good if you should be unfortunate enough to need it.
Good luck.
Anders
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Easton, during the last year I did retouching for several photographers, they use Canon and Nikon, all top line cameras... I was convinced that between a Canon 1Ds mark III and a digital back wih 22 megapixels there weren't many differences... Now I'm entering in the business also as photographer and have been using a P45+ since the end of december. A new world, it's not just more pixels, beyond 22 megapixels it simply doesn't metter for my photos (i make many composities in photoshop), all the struggle I was forced on with photoshop now it's over, it all seem to be so easy.. almost no more sharpening mask to get a sharp image, so much deepness in the shadows and so much details in the lights.. Now when I use some curves and other stuff for adding colors I see much more smoothness, the selections are better because there is no blur to deal with... I saw you are pretty good with postproduction, You know what I mean... If you need just a purely shot, maybe a ZD it's ok, also a Canon or a Nikon are ok, but when you use a phase file... I'm sure also Leaf and sinar and Hasselblad are very good, I can only speak for Phase, was the only sistem I could afford; oh try the 5 backs with 30 seconds exposure.... tell me which is the winner. Of course all of us have his own style and needs, I use always 50ISO I don't care about 5 fps shutter I need 1 minut clean exposure....
Good luck
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I have a 5D2 and it is pretty neat but the ZD files have something special about them that I don't get from the 5D2. The Aptus might be better but I think you'll get a similar feeling with it compared to the ZD, at least a working ZD. But it is all subjective of course. And I always use ISO 50 on the ZD.
Bill
Yeah - the 5D Mark II will replace my 1Ds Mark II, and I think they'll be a narrow gap (or no gap at all!) between that and an Aptus 22.
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Thanks everyone.
Yeah - the 5D Mark II will replace my 1Ds Mark II, and I think they'll be a narrow gap (or no gap at all!) between that and an Aptus 22.
I would like to use the Canon system for my editorial (bread and butter) work, and MFDB system for my personal work and commercial work where I'm in no rush to shoot by the hip.
Besides the horrendous issues, I am really enjoying the MFDB experience. I had a pretty gadgetry upbringing (Like a lot of new photographers these days, I have never touched film before, and I got into photography after the whole transition thing) and the feel and use of MFDB's is somehow inspiring me to go out and shoot more, work harder, and think more before I shoot. I guess thats just a weird thing going on in my deluded mine.
Based on the responses in this thread I think it's pretty clear now that my ZD is a lemon.
I'm going to forward the images to Mamiya Japan to confirm to my local dealer that the back is indeed buggered and ask for a replacement ZD back.
Then.. if they're willing to trade that new replacement back in, I will opt for a Phase One as it's the only other brand back they distribute at that store. And pay the cost difference.
If they won't trade it back (or the cost difference is unfair) - I will ebay the replacement ZD back and with that cash look towards other options.
The store i'm dealing with is the Australian Phase One/Mamiya dealer, if they don't look after me with this ZD issue than I can look at the "other" store which distributes Sinar and Leaf.
That is, the brand back I go with may end up being decided by the support of the dealer more than anything else. As far as I can tell (with the exception of the ZD) All the other brands will be far more reliable.
Easton-
Seems like with this dealer you may have two choices to go since they sell Phase and Mamiya you already have the AFDIII which Phase and Mamiya package together anyway. You may be able to do what Josh did on the Mac side and simple exchange for the DL28 which looks to be a nice back from leaf or step up to a Phase back. You may in this process be able to snag a demo or refurbished unit and save some money also. Your best bet is work with your dealer and see what he can or cannot do, obviously this all depends on warranty and owner time and all that but I would start there than if that does not work out than go after the OEM for a solution. Seems if under warranty the worst case is they will replace the back or fix it and than you can sell it. That seems like the worst case and the best the ability to simply move up. The common theme here is the ZD is good but given your usage not good enough for commercial work and that was what led me also to move up. Remember these backs can last a long time if you get one that get's it done than your return will be there.
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Easton, during the last year I did retouching for several photographers, they use Canon and Nikon, all top line cameras... I was convinced that between a Canon 1Ds mark III and a digital back wih 22 megapixels there weren't many differences... Now I'm entering in the business also as photographer and have been using a P45+ since the end of december. A new world, it's not just more pixels, beyond 22 megapixels it simply doesn't metter for my photos (i make many composities in photoshop), all the struggle I was forced on with photoshop now it's over, it all seem to be so easy.. almost no more sharpening mask to get a sharp image, so much deepness in the shadows and so much details in the lights.. Now when I use some curves and other stuff for adding colors I see much more smoothness, the selections are better because there is no blur to deal with... I saw you are pretty good with postproduction, You know what I mean... If you need just a purely shot, maybe a ZD it's ok, also a Canon or a Nikon are ok, but when you use a phase file... I'm sure also Leaf and sinar and Hasselblad are very good, I can only speak for Phase, was the only sistem I could afford; oh try the 5 backs with 30 seconds exposure.... tell me which is the winner. Of course all of us have his own style and needs, I use always 50ISO I don't care about 5 fps shutter I need 1 minut clean exposure....
Good luck
Euh... who are you and what did you do with Michele? I still remember you as very sceptical about the usefulness of MFDB or even the differences between MFDB and 35mm.
Some excellent points from several people. The last thing you want during a shoot is not being able to rely upon your equipment. Even having doubts can distract you from being focussed to what really counts, getting the necessary shots.
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Yea I always shoot ISO 50 on the ZD, in fact I don't think i've ever shot above ISO 50 except during photographic tests. The way I saw it was that when you spend and compromise so much for quality, why throw it all away shooting at a higher ISO, use cheap glass or cheap filters in front of it.
Bill do you think the difference between the ZD and the 5D2 then might be the AA filter?
michele I do sort of know what you mean about the files. I do all of my own post production work as well and it's important to have a file that makes a good input for post production, and the ZD files do make a better starting point than my Canon 1Ds Mark II files. Detail seems to be retrieved a lot more easily and (seemingly) without the consequence of noise. Highlights come back well and the images are naturally sharp straight out the camera.
I don't feel like I need larger than 22 megapixel files, but the noiseless shadows and dynamic range is really important as I push my images to the limit in post.
I also don't care about 5fps frame rates, as thats the job of the Canon. But I do find myself using longer and longer exposures lately (30 seconds) and the ZD hates it.
Of course like you've all said - the most important thing at the end of the day is the back's reliability. It's useless if I don't have faith in it.
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Seems like with this dealer you may have two choices to go since they sell Phase and Mamiya you already have the AFDIII which Phase and Mamiya package together anyway. You may be able to do what Josh did on the Mac side and simple exchange for the DL28 which looks to be a nice back from leaf or step up to a Phase back. You may in this process be able to snag a demo or refurbished unit and save some money also. Your best bet is work with your dealer and see what he can or cannot do, obviously this all depends on warranty and owner time and all that but I would start there than if that does not work out than go after the OEM for a solution. Seems if under warranty the worst case is they will replace the back or fix it and than you can sell it. That seems like the worst case and the best the ability to simply move up. The common theme here is the ZD is good but given your usage not good enough for commercial work and that was what led me also to move up. Remember these backs can last a long time if you get one that get's it done than your return will be there.
I agree Guy, your post sums it up completely. Except I'm not sure if they can sell me the DL28 as it's Leaf (unless they can acquire it since they're Mamiya also?) and I thought the DL28 was exclusive to the USA?
But yes worst case scenario they should replace it with a new back in which case i'd sell it off. And use the dosh to buy another brand.
I would so love an Aptus II-6. The price is right and I wish it was available when I was MFDB shopping 6 months ago. But back then (at least here in Oz) there were very few affordable choices compared to whats available now.
Today (even looking just at Leaf and Phase One, which i've researched into the most so far) there are very affordable refurbished P's and the P21+. As well as refurbished Aptus's and the the new Aptus II-6.
My Mamiya is indeed still under warranty as I have only owned it for 6 months.
I also dislike how in Australia we basically only have one dealer for each of the brands, you simply can't shop around. Whereas in the USA it's a different story!
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Dustback... ehm, are you sure you are not mestaking? I mean, I have posted very little and few comments in those last 5 months, just asking for experiences on MFDB and maybe giving advices to someone, because I was searching informations due the possibility of buying a bac... How can you remember me? by the way, I have always been entusiastic about MDFB...
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Dustback... ehm, are you sure you are not mestaking? I mean, I have posted very little and few comments in those last 5 months, just asking for experiences on MFDB and maybe giving advices to someone, because I was searching informations due the possibility of buying a bac... How can you remember me? by the way, I have always been entusiastic about MDFB...
Ok, I thought it was you but I might be mistaken ofcourse. I do remember a lot but my memory isn't what it used to be 10 years ago, I do admit that. Sorry about that
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Ok, I thought it was you but I might be mistaken ofcourse. I do remember a lot but my memory isn't what it used to be 10 years ago, I do admit that. Sorry about that
Oh no problem in this forum we are more then 50.000 members... I respect many of the photographers that post here, and of course you are one of them
My best
Michele
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I agree Guy, your post sums it up completely. Except I'm not sure if they can sell me the DL28 as it's Leaf (unless they can acquire it since they're Mamiya also?) and I thought the DL28 was exclusive to the USA?
But yes worst case scenario they should replace it with a new back in which case i'd sell it off. And use the dosh to buy another brand.
I would so love an Aptus II-6. The price is right and I wish it was available when I was MFDB shopping 6 months ago. But back then (at least here in Oz) there were very few affordable choices compared to whats available now.
Today (even looking just at Leaf and Phase One, which i've researched into the most so far) there are very affordable refurbished P's and the P21+. As well as refurbished Aptus's and the the new Aptus II-6.
My Mamiya is indeed still under warranty as I have only owned it for 6 months.
I also dislike how in Australia we basically only have one dealer for each of the brands, you simply can't shop around. Whereas in the USA it's a different story!
Yes the DL28 maybe only a USA option , that I am not sure of and it comes from the MAC group as Josh was able to do that with them. I have the P25 plus which is a 22mpx back and seriously after testing it against the P45 and the new p65 plus i am right in there with the big boys. To me it is the jump over the 35mm curve that counts and in MF 22 mpx is plenty as many folks here shoot in this range. I would if you can is try the Leaf software and C1 and as a big part of the process , software is very important and if you dislike one than it will just make your life not much fun at all. So test them out and see what fits your workflow the best. I like C1 myself since I have been using it since the 1ds came out and that was a big part of my decision. I am pretty sure you can download the Leaf software to try , I know C1 has a 30 trial period that I think still exists today. Have to look into that but try things out and see what direction makes the most sense for you.
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I think that the AA filter has good bit to do with image quality, that might be one reason people like that little Leica. Also the large sensor. And there is better color quality in the Dalsa sensor. And the lack of micro lenses. Anyway, the list goes on and I don't know as much as other people.
Have you seen Frank's site? He has used the ZD and now uses the Aptus 22 and is an expert in image quality and very helpful.
http://www.doorhof.nl/blog/index.php (http://www.doorhof.nl/blog/index.php)
Bill
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Hi Easton,
I would suggest that you only buy equipment when you have a job for it. I am sure that car shoots must have a pretty high price tag! so when you get your next big shoot, hire or buy what you need for that shoot. I am sorry to hear about your ZD troubles. I have had my zd camera since they were launched(May 2007) and have not had a day's trouble. For the price I paid it was a great investment. Am busy shooting an annual report right now. Size of pics about A5 max. So to keep my bill reasonable I am using a 450d and I bought a 50mm 1.8 to do the portraits with (crappy build quality but outstanding quality). I have wanted a 50mm lens for portraits for a while but I waited till a biggish portrait job came around that would paid for it. Shots look great and, on that size zd (or anything else) will have made little difference! In the meantime your ZD(when its fixed) is a great route(and cheap) to build onto your portfolio and put some money in your pocket instead of the manufacturers!
Regards, Ivan
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I hate bumping threads but I figured this update is pretty important.
Mamiya confirmed the issues and replaced my back with a new one. They even tested it very carefully before sending it back to Australia. No more lemons!
I haven't picked it up from the dealer yet but this back is still going to go on ebay, as a new back with warranty remaining - because i'd like to upgrade now to a Phase One, Leaf or Sinar
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That is good news that Mamiya replaced it. Good luck on your next back
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I hate bumping threads but I figured this update is pretty important.
Mamiya confirmed the issues and replaced my back with a new one. They even tested it very carefully before sending it back to Australia. No more lemons!
I haven't picked it up from the dealer yet but this back is still going to go on ebay, as a new back with warranty remaining - because i'd like to upgrade now to a Phase One, Leaf or Sinar
Congrats on working things out. That 22mp sensor can create some great images...Good luck on the upgrade. Lot's of folks here (users, pros, and dealers) who seem to be honest and can provide good advice. Love my Leaf Aptus II 6, many users love their PhaseOne, Sinar, and Hasselblad backs too. With the economy the way it is, dealers might be able to provide you with a good deal in order to get you into their system. Enjoy.
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I feel your pain.
I had to sent the DL28 back to mamiya after one week. The Leaf back was fine. The mamiya was riddled with issues from super slow shutter lag to locking up every 1/2 hour to an hour.
It seems that their QA leaves little to be desired.