Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: hobbsr on January 09, 2009, 07:37:04 am
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Hi All,
Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:
1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?
2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources
I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.
The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!
As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?
thanks in advance
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Why not get a used Mamiya 645 AFD system? It'll cost you less and you don't have to worry about the system being dead.
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I like the Contax system, but there are a few drawbacks: very slow flash sync, and some parts are already impossible to find with no new parts being made any more. I also believe there are no viewfinder options.
I wouldn't worry about finding parts for the Rollei. It is quite a popular system in Europe, with many used bodies available. The lenses will hold value too because they work with the Sinar Hy6/Leaf AFi. This also means you have an easy upgrade path to this new platform.
At the end of the day, you have to like using the system, and no-one else can answer that for you. If you do opt for the ROllei, there is a great battery upgrade which is cheap and makes a huge difference. See http://www.graham-mitchell.com/blog/?p=72 (http://www.graham-mitchell.com/blog/?p=72)
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Hi All,
Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:
1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?
2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources
I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.
The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!
As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?
thanks in advance
I think Graham is right you are the only one that can decide this. However, if you are thinking about getting or renting a digital back in the future the Contax is much easier to get a digital back for.
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I like the Rolleis but preferred the Contax in the end. For me the Contax body handled better and I love their lenses and when you compare the price, they're real bargains, gifts actually. I don't see Contax as a dead system when they have such a complete glass line up and accessories available, add to that the possibility of using Hassy glass and you're covered. Not much to worry about servicing, for one Contax was built like a tank, 2nd at these prices and the abundance of parts on e-bay, you can always replace a body if you can't get it fixed.
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If you do opt for the ROllei, there is a great battery upgrade which is cheap and makes a huge difference. See http://www.foto-z.com/blog/?p=72 (http://www.foto-z.com/blog/?p=72)
Hello Graham, did you manage to find a charger for your upgraded battery? And how does this work? Do you care to post a Jpeg of the setup, I mean the battery in the charger. Just can't figure out, how this is suppossed to work with the battery you build?
Thanks in advance,
Heinrich
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If I was still shooting film, it'd be a no contest: Contax. I did own and use one for 6+ years and, like a Mac, the user interface was fantastic. I know you're not considering it, but the Mamiya 645, to me, is a toy in comparison. I don't have experience with the Rollei, but I know the glass is supposed to be outstanding. I was never dissatisfied with the glass on the Contax however. As stated already, the system may be dead, but there are tons of used, pristine condition bodies and accessories everywhere. Buy two extra bodies for say $1400 if you're worried. I believe they made waist level finders, but they are hard to find, if you were interested.
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I looked at the contax before buying the Rollei. The contax has a tiny viewfinder and neither one has a really fast AF. I really like my rollei now.
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Hello Graham, did you manage to find a charger for your upgraded battery? And how does this work? Do you care to post a Jpeg of the setup, I mean the battery in the charger. Just can't figure out, how this is suppossed to work with the battery you build?
Thanks in advance,
Heinrich
Hi Heinrich, there are several battery chargers on the market which can be customized to charge all sorts of battery packs. I happen to use a Maha C777-PlusII, but any charger capable of charging NiMH cells should work. The original Rollei charger is only designed for NiCd cells.
I don't have a point and shoot unfortunately or I'd be hapy to take a quick snapshot. I can show you the charger however. There are sliding pins which can be aligned to fit the right contacts on the battery.
(http://shashinki.com/shop/images/MAHA-c777plus2.jpg)
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Here's my thoughts:
I used them both for many years. When recently deciding to get back into medium format, I opted to go for the Contax. Here's my reasons:
(1) AF is slow on both cameras, but it's more accurate on the Contax (less hunting).
(2) Because my work doesn't often require high speed flash sync, the focal plane shutter of the Contax (1/4000th) is more useful to me than the top shutter speed of Rollei PQS lenses (1/1000th) for outdoor shooting. When I'm shooting in the studio with strobes, the Contax's 125th flash sync is fine with me.
(3) The used prices for most Rollei lenses are significantly higher than for Contax lenses. I put together my Contax system (body, battery grip, 80mm, 45mm, 120mm, and 140mm lenses) for less than $4000 from Keh.com. The fact that you can now buy the 120mm used for around $1000 is crazy. It's absolutely one of the best lenses I've ever used for any camera.
(4) For shooting portraits, I prefer the rendering of the Contax Zeiss lenses over either the Zeiss or Schneider lenses for Rollei. There's no question that some of the Rollei lenses -- especially the Schneiders -- are sharper than the Contax lenses (other than the 120mm) in the sense that they resolve more information. But resolution isn't the same as "look." I just prefer the look of the Contax lenses for shooting people.
(5) I can use my Hasselblad 110mm f2.0 FE lens on the Contax via an adapter.
(6) I owned both the Rollei and the Contax at the same time for a couple of years. Looking back thru my photos from that period, it's clear that I made noticeably better images with the Contax. That could be for a variety of reasons, not all of which are related to which is a "better' camera in terms of objective image quality (size, weight, "feel," etc).
All that said, I loved shooting with that big square waist level finder on the Rollei. (Contax does have a waist level finder, but it's hard to find now. And of course it's only really useful when shooting horizontally). And you certainly can't fault the Rollei glass; objectively, it's extremely good.
EDIT: with regard to repairs and service, the last I heard, this company does Contax repairs:
http://tocad.com/service.html (http://tocad.com/service.html)
One disturbing part, however, is this quote from their website:
" Contax N Digital, RTS III, U4R, I4R, SL300R T* and TVS Digital cameras and 645 lenses are sent to Contax Japan for estimate, approval and repair. This process can take up to 90 days. An estimate is provided free of cost even in the event the unit is not approved for repair."
Obviously, waiting "up to 90 days" isn't an option for a working pro. In which case, I'd suggest just buying backups to the critical parts of the system because they're so inexpensive now.
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I guess this is another opportunity to chime in on Contax, and on the lens side. I have every 645 Contax lens there is, and am moving from P45+ to P65+. So far I see no degradation due to glass. Also use many Hassey 500 lenses (including a fine 50mm 2.8 I got from Graham! :-)
As I watch issues here about quality and QC of a certain 28mm lens, and recent poor examples in another forum on a recent TS 45mm (rhymes with 'I'll see ya'), it just reinforces my decision a year ago to stay with Contax.
There's a lot of 'life' in this reported 'dead' system
reminds me of a certain Mark Twain quote!
regrads
Victor
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I guess this is another opportunity to chime in on Contax, and on the lens side. I have every 645 Contax lens there is, and am moving from P45+ to P65+. So far I see no degradation due to glass. Also use many Hassey 500 lenses (including a fine 50mm 2.8 I got from Graham! :-)
I also really enjoy my Contax 645, but I have hit one of those little problems which drive it home that the system is no longer supported by its manufacturer: my mirror lockup button doesn't work. I can still use the 2s-timer-mirror lockup, which is probably what I would use anyway, but it does bother me. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Is there a contact somewhere I can polish to revive it?
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Under the title of "that's what makes horse races...."
I'm chiming in on the Rollei side. I must agree for a DSLR, the Contax is appealing. The AF probably works better, and the camera has some great lenses, and a nice feel.
But the Rollei gives a lot more operational options, and with the WLF, one can really hand hold it at lower shutter speeds. Those Schneider lenses are really amazing - no edge drop off, no distortion, and both resolution and creaminess.
I once rented the Contax for a weekend, took it out to go shoot, and found all that weight on the right hand wrist... and it went back in the case, not to come out again. Somehow, we just didn't become good friends, altho with the best of intentions.
With the Rollei, its been a pal for about 15 years, altho I must say the best combo for me was the 6003 with the skinny film back, and WLF. THe lightest of the bunch, and smaller too. Otherwise they can get kind of big.
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I also really enjoy my Contax 645, but I have hit one of those little problems which drive it home that the system is no longer supported by its manufacturer: my mirror lockup button doesn't work. I can still use the 2s-timer-mirror lockup, which is probably what I would use anyway, but it does bother me. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Is there a contact somewhere I can polish to revive it?
where is the mirror lockup? I have always used to 2s time!
Victor
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where is the mirror lockup? I have always used to 2s time!
Victor
The little black flush button in front of the dial with the 2s timer. Pressing it is meant to make the mirror go up, but mine doesn't. I have tried pushing with a thin object, reasonably hard, as it is not easy to push, but it just doesn't work.
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What I like about the Rollei is how many different lenses and accessories are still available. I really make use of the remote shutter for example, and a lot of their macro stuff. It's certainly a personal thing and I think some will like the contax better and some the rollei. But at least you can still buy new 6008 AF and even their TLR. Service in the US is pretty quick.
I never use the AF so can't blame that for any bad pictures. Today I was shooting with polaroids with the polaroid back just for fun. What's great is that a lot of the MF solutions allow for quick change between film and MFDB.
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Here's another vote for Contax being an excellent deal. I have two bodies, two prism finders and a waist level finder. When one of the bodies develops a problem, I will most likely buy another body, as they are by far a better bargain than Contax lens shades or other bits that are less plentiful. I think that you can still buy anything you need for them, but a few odds and ends are scarce enough that they fetch a higher price. I really like the ergonomics and build quality, but the best part is the Zeiss glass in front.
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I have used both the 6008AF and Contax 645 systems. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. I think it comes down to whether you are mainly shooting studio or indoor and need the leaf shutter lenses for higher flash sync, or whether you want a wider range of shutter speeds (up to 1/4000 with the Contax) at the expense of a slower flash.
The 6008 system was always bulkier and heavier when I needed to travel. It is the price you pay to have the larger (and brighter) 6x6 format. I was also not happy with the proprietary battery system of the 6008. You must lug around a large and bulky (and slow) charger for these special Rollei batteries. On the other hand, the Contax batteries use easily found 2CR5, or with the optional vertical grip standard AA batteries. This can be a real life saver when you need batteries immediately, especially on location.
The Contax has a wider range of AF lenses, including a 35mm and a 45-90 zoom. The widest AF lens for the 6008 is 50mm, and the Rollei 60-140 is much larger and heavier. I never found the Rollei zoom lens to be practical in this respect, at least for me. I also like the option of using Hasselblad V glass with the Contax system. If you need any tilt/shift capability in the future, you will be limited with the Rollei 6008 to the very expensive 55 PCS lens (over USD8000 new). The probability of finding this lens (and many other Rollei items) on the used market is often more difficult than finding any Contax accessory. With the Contax, you can use a Hasselblad PC-Mutar, or the Super-Rotator lenses from Hartblei, at much less cost.
I wouldn't worry to much about the "deadness" of the contax. The build quality is outstanding, and can take a lot of abuse. It is typically cheaper to just purchase replacement bodies on ebay and elsewhere when needed. And, Rollei service can be slow and expensive when out of the warranty period, especially for non-European countries. As an example. it took two months to have my Rollei 110 lens to be CLA'ed in Germany.
Overall, I would recommend the less expensive Contax 645 system, and putting your money towards the best MFDB you can afford. If you also shoot film, you can use the excellent vacuum 220 film back for the Contax, which pulls the film absolutely flat for edge to edge sharpness, and can make a real difference since film will be slightly curled when shot on the 6008AF.
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Hi All,
Thanks so much for the valuable insights, i just wanted to add a couple of points:
1. My main application will be to shoot portraits and use for parts of a wedding day again people related. So I wanted good AF and to handhold the system.
2. I also would like to understand everyones view on building a system to last many many years what would be the important parts to make sure I have spares? is the main thing to have a spare body which of course I would get or is it equally important for the prisms and lens and backs? Any insights to the main elements that go first on electronic systems such as the Contax would be great to help build the shopping list.
Regards
PS I think that there should still be 5 years on the clock for support of Contax, I wish that someone could buy the brand usage and bring this system back as mentioned somewhere it is too good a system to send to the history pages.
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Hi All,
Thanks so much for the valuable insights, i just wanted to add a couple of points:
1. My main application will be to shoot portraits and use for parts of a wedding day again people related. So I wanted good AF and to handhold the system.
2. I also would like to understand everyones view on building a system to last many many years what would be the important parts to make sure I have spares? is the main thing to have a spare body which of course I would get or is it equally important for the prisms and lens and backs? Any insights to the main elements that go first on electronic systems such as the Contax would be great to help build the shopping list.
Regards
PS I think that there should still be 5 years on the clock for support of Contax, I wish that someone could buy the brand usage and bring this system back as mentioned somewhere it is too good a system to send to the history pages.
1. For event / people shooting, I would recommend getting the Contax flash bracket. I find that the ergonomics of hand holding the system are perfect with this bracket, at least for me. This way, you can use either a prism or a waist level finder with your flash. This bracket has integrated flash cable that attaches nicely to the side of the camera body. I have never seen a prism fail, although I have seen the flash shoe on top of a prism fail. So, having a flash bracket serves double duty as a backup flash shoe as well. The vertical hand grip should also be considered, but it is not a necessity as it does add weight which takes its toll during a long day of hand held shooting.
2. It is rare for a Contax lens to fail (I have never seen one fail), especially since there is no internal leaf shutter. So, I would say it is more important to have a spare body than a spare lens. As mentioned above, I would recommend a flash bracket as opposed to a spare prism. Having multiple film backs is nice, and they are inexpensive, so you should pick up a few of these as well, not so much because of failure, which again is rare, but to have various film types preloaded and ready to go.
As for a shopping list, based on your people shooting desires, I would recommend two bodies, 45, 80, 140 lenses, one prism, one flash bracket, some film backs, an optional vertical battery grip, and some flash equipment of your liking. This is a typical minimal wedding setup that would today cost under USD6000 (depending on flash sophistication). I also know one pro wedding shooter that does an entire wedding with the 45-90 zoom, so lens selection involves some personal choice. The three primes above are the fastest and a more traditional lineup.
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I have both Contax and Hasselblad V, none of these are going to be a dead system. But I do see a big benefit to have two bodies for any of these two systems. It can be used as the back-up.
I believe a lot of people read Hasselblad V as "Carl Zeiss". In this sense, you can see Contax 645 as the 645-AF Hasselbadl V, more even so than the Fuji-Blad H. Its impossible not to fall in love with it, if you ever tried it.
Rollei 6008AF and the new comer Hy6 may not have the equal image quality as the Contax 645 if you use it in the 645 or sub-645 format. It has to compromise to get the possibility of 6x6 format.
But this is exactly its potential benefit. If, in the near future, there is ever a full frame 6x6 digital back, you'll be glad to have the native 6x6.
For he same price, you might be able to get the Mamiya 645. This is definitely going to be a long live system. Not sure how's the image quality, it's Mamiya, but most review show it's on par with Hasselblad H but much cheaper.
Hi All,
Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:
1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?
2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources
I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.
The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!
As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?
thanks in advance
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Hi All,
Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:
1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?
2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources
I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.
The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!
As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?
thanks in advance
I use both system for awhile before setting digitally on Contax 645, and later also with H3D. The Contax 645 is a compact system and much lighter to operate, and excellent optics. I fthe question is between the Contax 645 and Hy6 then may be it would be a much tougher call but to me base on today's most common sensor size, I will go for Contax 645, but if I started new, I will settle with Hy6. I have 3 Contax 645 body and still using the one I bought back in 1998, can't count many exposures already, and all the lenses work perfectly from day one until now. I still can get some new 645 body and lenses (except the 120/4 APO-Makro) from HK, and could not care more about service because it has proved to be a very robust system.
Hy6 is a totally different equation and I think 6008 series Rollei is more or less as old as Contax 645 and probably require more service and less digital back to support. If I were 6008 user, I would move to Hy6 but keep all the lenses, but between Contax 645 and Rollei 6008, I will go for Contax 645.
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I use both system for awhile before setting digitally on Contax 645, and later also with H3D. The Contax 645 is a compact system and much lighter to operate, and excellent optics. I fthe question is between the Contax 645 and Hy6 then may be it would be a much tougher call but to me base on today's most common sensor size, I will go for Contax 645, but if I started new, I will settle with Hy6. I have 3 Contax 645 body and still using the one I bought back in 1998, can't count many exposures already, and all the lenses work perfectly from day one until now. I still can get some new 645 body and lenses (except the 120/4 APO-Makro) from HK, and could not care more about service because it has proved to be a very robust system.
Hy6 is a totally different equation and I think 6008 series Rollei is more or less as old as Contax 645 and probably require more service and less digital back to support. If I were 6008 user, I would move to Hy6 but keep all the lenses, but between Contax 645 and Rollei 6008, I will go for Contax 645.
One thing that gets lost in most of these disccusions of cameras is regardless of the camera format, in medium format your always shooting slightly less than even a 645. You might like the contrast range of a mamiya 6x7 or the tactile feel of a Rollei 6008 but regardless of the size camera once you go digital it's always smaller than 645.
I don't have almost any experience with the Rollei, other than once with film and it's a nice camera, kind of strange with the proprietary batteries and the lenses I've seen in the states, even used are very expensive, but if I was really going this direction I'd look at a Sinarhy6 or Leaf rather than an 6008 because from what I understand the digital back choices on the Rollei are limited.
I do have a lot of experience with the Contax cameras and they strong never really break unless it's user error and are one of the few "pre proprietary" cameras that have a digital interface so you don't have to mess with sync cords and of course you never worry about firmware upgrades because there is no new firmware upgrades.
Up to a few years ago you could find a Contax system in rental everywhere, but there are less and less as time goes by, though I've yet to be in a medium to large city where there wasn't a complete system for sale somewhere. In fact buying a Contax is probably as easy as buying any new system and usually a lot less expensive. It has a great self timer for mirror up, the focus is good as long as there is enough light in the room, the body and lenses are bullet proof.
The lenses are sharp, at least as sharp as I've ever needed and in fact a little too sharp for some things I shoot, though in digital moving sliders can change the sharpness quickly.
The only issues with reliability are to keep the prism off the body when traveling as the rails that connect the prism to the body are somewhat fragile and if they take a shock will break and make connection sporatic. The other is to always cover the shutter as it's very easy to stick a thumb through the exposed shutter if the back is not attached.
The only drawbacks to the camera are the lens, prism and body contacts should be polished clean as they must connect securely and the primsm reduces the ground glass view so the with a 90 degree prism the view is perceived smaller than a new Nikon, Canon or Hasselblad H. The upside is unlike the Nikons and Canons what you see on the ground glass is the same look and depth of field as what you see on the file and unlike the H system the prism is true and doesn't artificially bend the view so what you see is what you get.
With the waist level finder the ground glass view is quite large, but with either the prism or the waist level finder you can focus manually.
If you shoot a lot of horizontals even the inflated used price of $700 for the waist level finder is worth it and since the rest of the contax prices are so under valued that $700 is not really an issue. If you shoot a lot of verticals the the right angle grip is a must and no new medium format camera has a right angle grip (today).
Really if I was going to start again and buy a new medium format system the only thing that would interest me beyond the contax is the Rollei HY6 "if" it accepted all digital backs and "if" you could rotate the back "and" the image area would black out to your exact framing, but since the HY6 is not an open platform if I had to have Leaf shutter lenses then I'd go with an older H1-2 Hasselblad, though for non hasselblad backs, that system is just as dead as the Contax, though like the Contax there is a lot of product in used so finding something is not that difficult. Actually I'd go with the Fuji version of the H system because it's black and not locked out like the later versions of the Hasselblad.
I've looked at the new Phase/mamiya and it's a step up from where it was but compared to the Contax it still feels like a toy and the fact the prism doesn't remove, it requires firmware updates at the factory, the prices have gone up considerably and the lenses and accessories are still "to come", I don't really see the point of that system until it's in it's finished version.
There is already talk of the new Phase tilt shift that has the same softness as the old Harteblie tilt shift which probably was to be expected, though not at a 500% price increase.
So back to the original thread. I think the 6008 is a nice system though before I'd make the investment in lenses I would do a great deal of research about how the various digital backs attach to it and operate, because as of today, every maker has a digital back for the Contax.
The upside of the Contax, except for leaf shutter lenses which I rarely use, is if you want to get into medium format with a quality camera it's probably the best priced and easiest to source of any medium format camera including many of the new systems. It's surely one of the most full featured systems around and accepts a lot of differrent lenses through adpaters.
If you must have higher flash sync speed then it's not an option.
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I have two 645 bodies (one is the spare), and the 35, 45, 80, 120, 140 and 210 plus the 1.4x extender. I have a phase 30+ back. All camera parts were purchased used.
The system has never failed. The quality, especially with the 80mm which is very inexpensive on ebay etcetera, is excellent. The price/quality ratio is unbeatable.
Like many quality film-based systems, they will hang in there...there is so much product in the used system that running low on parts will take a long time, I am sure. That's why I decided to buy this system.
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One other thing to consider is that the 6x6 format of the rollei will give a different look compared to a 645 format due to the larger magnification factor of the bigger image circle on the 6x6. This will also mean less DOF for a given amount of light. You might say the backs are the same size so how could there be a difference, but there is because of the lenses. Ergonomics are also a factor and hopefully one would have a chance to try the different cameras before making a decision. I really like the detachable handle grip for the rollei. I think this gives me extra stability in shooting and is comfortable to hand the camera down by my side when I'm not actively shooting. This makes a big difference to me.
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i still have my contax together with 35/45/55/80/140+210mm lenses and waistlevel finder and prism.
its a great system and market prices are too cheap to sell it, so i hold it ( wanted to sell because i am not a collectionist and i also have the sinar m ).
this means too that if you search in ebay you can get a whole system as mine under 8000$.
this is a great moment for buying 2. hand gear because many people are frightened for the economy
and also many switch to 35mm since the new 21/25mp digi-slrs. but this might be the same for lenses for the 6008 so one can get a hy6 too
and add 2.hand lenses, which is the most expensive in such system.
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I had a Rollei 6002 for a time, I liked it because I came from a Rollei TLR background, I also like the square format, the Mamiya was mentioned as an alternative, I had a couple of these, but only for a few months, each picture felt like it could be the last one before the camera fell apart. I'm sure they were built by people that previously had built Windmills, the technology felt the same. The best MF I ever used and still have is the Pentax 67, 6x7 makes 645 look more like 35mm, I never really took to 645. If for fun I had a pile of money sloshing around, I would go for the wide tele and standard Rolleiflex TLR's. When I think back to my first job we covered everything with TLR Rollei's from Passport pictures to offshore marine, interiors, weddings and aerials. Needless to say if I had a choice between the 6008 and Contax, for the 6x6 format, waist level viewfinder and handling the the Rollei would get my vote, I also liked the pre-loadable film inserts my Rollei had, I presume the 6008 still takes these.
Kevin.
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the rollei lenses are not that expensive second hand, especially the non-AF. for my AFI I got a 50mm pq for €450, a 120mm macro pq for €700, a 150mm pqs for €500. and there are quite a lot of them around. how much do you pay for contax's equivalent?
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the rollei lenses are not that expensive second hand, especially the non-AF. for my AFI I got a 50mm pq for €450, a 120mm macro pq for €700, a 150mm pqs for €500. and there are quite a lot of them around. how much do you pay for contax's equivalent?
more ....
but they are af.
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more ....
but they are af.
But not that much more. I picked up my 120 Macro in perfect condition for $1800CAN. Shipping to Europe and VAT added to that, but it was still quite a nice deal, and it really is perfect. The macro 120 isn't AF, though. My 35/3.5 I picked up for $1400US, also perfect, with box and papers. I am not sure there is another 35mm lens as good in any 645 system, possibly except Rollei.
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I'm not such a fan of Rollei myself * , mostly because of the pricing and the fact that there are nearly identical options available if you're only shooting film. After all, a camera is basically a lens, a box, and some sort of focusing and/or aperture mechanism in between.
My favorite for the money is the Mamiya, but it's pricey. The budget winner is the Pentax 645N. It's new enough to get parts for, is dead-simple to use, and the optics are decent enough to where only the most anal will really care. Especially if it's in relation to 35mm/what you were shooting before. Oh, and it's inexpensive, used.
* An exception to this is their TLRs. Simple and economical. Fantastic results. I can't really tell much difference between a 8000 series and their better TLRs in actual quality. Sure, the newer and fancier model has interchangeable lenses and a bunch of bells and goodies on it, plus maybe auto-focus, but the results are very close. One was made for professionals with a work flow to deal with and the other wasn't. The film doesn't seem to care much, though.
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I'm not such a fan of Rollei myself * , mostly because of the pricing and the fact that there are nearly identical options available if you're only shooting film. After all, a camera is basically a lens, a box, and some sort of focusing and/or aperture mechanism in between.
My favorite for the money is the Mamiya, but it's pricey. The budget winner is the Pentax 645N. It's new enough to get parts for, is dead-simple to use, and the optics are decent enough to where only the most anal will really care. Especially if it's in relation to 35mm/what you were shooting before. Oh, and it's inexpensive, used.
* An exception to this is their TLRs. Simple and economical. Fantastic results. I can't really tell much difference between a 8000 series and their better TLRs in actual quality. Sure, the newer and fancier model has interchangeable lenses and a bunch of bells and goodies on it, plus maybe auto-focus, but the results are very close. One was made for professionals with a work flow to deal with and the other wasn't. The film doesn't seem to care much, though.
I agree with you on the TLR's. Amazing cameras, and while developed years ago, still take great images. Rollei worked out all the "user" issues long ago, and these cameras are ergonomic and precise. The film loading is an issue - somewhat slow, to be sure. But even today, a scanned image from the TLR negative, and its hard to beat it.
With the 6000 series cameras, Rollei tried to make a conversion to the SLR setup, and until the 6003/8 series, didn't quite get it right. But as the third generation (SL66, then 6002/6, ending up at 6003/8), they got it pretty much spot on for a hybrid mech'l/elec camera. The 6003 is simpler, thinner back, removable handle, but almost all the other features. The 6008 really opens up to full professional use. But you can haul the simpler 6003 around and shoot on the street pretty readily. The lightness of the thinner back does make a difference, esp. with WLF. And you can add almost all the 6008 features onto it if you want.
The main features of the 6003/8 are the integration of all the activities into a pretty fast and flexible package. The metering is fully integrated, and while I never really felt a need for the motorized film transport, the film cassettes are just a delight: preload a couple of cassettes (they're cheap and easy) and you can change to new film roll in under 10 seconds easy. Also, I've never yet been able to beat the Rollei meter.
Each person has their own feel for a camera, but the Rollei seems to fall to hand pretty easily. While I wanted to like the Hassy 500's, I never felt at ease with them. Too many oddities, and things that just seem to need a special touch. Maybe others have different opinions.
Is a 6003/8 better than the Rollei TLR? If one likes changing lenses, or the ability to use wide angle, surely. The film loading is better, and the film flatness, one of the great unheralded strengths of this system, is superior as well. Film in the 6003/8 is just really really flat to the plate. That's one reason they are so sharp. The integration is great, and the ability to go from fully automatic, to partially auto, to fully manual is great too. For travelling, sometimes I'll take the TLR, because it is just that much smaller, and sometimes the 6003. Just depends on how much hand carrying will be done. You can haul a TLR around all day, but after a couple of hours, the 6003 is getting heavy.
With the autofocus 6008 AF, system wise, things got better but maybe not as good. Perhaps a bit too much was being asked of the system, and thus the Hy6 makes a lot of sense as the next iteration of the system. Again, the overall appraoch was repackaged, reengineered, and rethought in the Hy6 - now smaller, not much lighter, but the motor is now in the back, not the camera, so for a digital back, you aren't carrying that load. And the electronics are improved.
There are seemingly other options, but few have this level of integration and the ability to both travel light and then bulk up as a fully professional system. The Bronica, Fuji, or other SLR's have either more weight or less system integration (?), but each have their own purposes.
Of course, one has to buy into the Rollei world at the right time and in the right way. They offer packages that make a good deal of sense every once anda while, and then its wonderful. I don't know if they really believe in their asking prices for these new lenses, but most were gotten for around $2k, never more than $3k (new) for any lens, for about 5 of them.... But they aren't AF lenses either.
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I don't know if they really believe in their asking prices for these new lenses, but I've never paid more than $3k for any lens of theirs, and have about 5 of them, 3 bought new.... But they aren't AF lenses either.
I know where you can get them a fair bit cheaper than $3k!
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=31155 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31155)
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I shoot both Contax 645 and Hy6 bodies on my Sinar e75LV back and like them both. The Hy6 is by far the more "sophisticated" camera and the ergonomics for hand held shooting can't be beaten. Notwithstanding it's advanced technology, etc. it has not displaced the Contax 645 for me. I love the simplicity of the Contax and the Zeiss and Hasselblad glass (with MAM-1 adapter) I shoot with it more than holds it's own with Rollei. While used Rollei prices are far below catalog pricing, they are still more expensive than the glass for the Contax kit... and bigger... and heavier. The Rollei 110 f/2 is twice the size of the Hasselblad equivalent.
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... and bigger... and heavier. The Rollei 110 f/2 is twice the size of the Hasselblad equivalent.
For comparison, filter size is B70 vs. 95mm
the extra diameter required for the leaf shutter.
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For comparison, filter size is B70 vs. 95mm
the extra diameter required for the leaf shutter.
That's interesting - I thought it had more to do with image circle since the actual optic elements are larger too?
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[quote name='David Klepacki' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:34 AM' post='251071']
1. For event / people shooting, I would recommend getting the Contax flash bracket. I find that the ergonomics of hand holding the system are perfect with this bracket, at least for me. This way, you can use either a prism or a waist level finder with your flash. This bracket has integrated flash cable that attaches nicely to the side of the camera body. I have never seen a prism fail, although I have seen the flash shoe on top of a prism fail. So, having a flash bracket serves double duty as a backup flash shoe as well. The vertical hand grip should also be considered, but it is not a necessity as it does add weight which takes its toll during a long day of hand held shooting.
Hi David,
I just bought a Contax 645 MSB-1 flash bracket that did not have set of instruction with it. I know where the flash sych cord goes, but what is the RCA plug cable? Where does it fit on to and to which part does it work on?
I will be using a Quantum Battery 1+ with the MCX cable that attaches to power the body. I was hoping that maybe the Quantum Battery 1+ with BOTH cable (for dflahs and body) will be sufficient enough to drive both the body AF mechanism and a flahs. Has anyone here have experience doing this?
Evan
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Hi Evan,
The coiled cord with the mini-jack enables the shutter button on the flash bracket. This part connects to the cable shutter port on the bottom right side of the camera grip. Or, if you are using the MP-1 vertical grip, then this port is at the rear of this grip near the bottom right.
The other cord with the 4-pin jack plugs into the similar type port on the left side of the camera body. This enables the flash shoe on the bracket.
An external battery, like the QB1+, serves another function, namely to supply power to everything, and so will connect to yet another port on the camera and/or flash.
David
Hi David,
I just bought a Contax 645 MSB-1 flash bracket that did not have set of instruction with it. I know where the flash sych cord goes, but what is the RCA plug cable? Where does it fit on to and to which part does it work on?
I will be using a Quantum Battery 1+ with the MCX cable that attaches to power the body. I was hoping that maybe the Quantum Battery 1+ with BOTH cable (for dflahs and body) will be sufficient enough to drive both the body AF mechanism and a flahs. Has anyone here have experience doing this?
Evan
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Hi Evan,
The coiled cord with the mini-jack enables the shutter button on the flash bracket. This part connects to the cable shutter port on the bottom right side of the camera grip. Or, if you are using the MP-1 vertical grip, then this port is at the rear of this grip near the bottom right.
The other cord with the 4-pin jack plugs into the similar type port on the left side of the camera body. This enables the flash shoe on the bracket.
An external battery, like the QB1+, serves another function, namely to supply power to everything, and so will connect to yet another port on the camera and/or flash.
David
David,
Thanks for explaining how the coil cord works. Now I understand how each of the cord works. Using the MSB-1 would be served best if a 2 flash system is required. I guess for a wedding either the MSB-1 or the MP-1 would work with the Quantum Battery 1+. Thanks for your help.
Evan