Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Alex MacPherson on December 28, 2008, 10:28:46 pm
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I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .
What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?
I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.
Somewhere between those?
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I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .
What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?
I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.
Somewhere between those?
a fair price for the one who is selling or an absurd low price due to the never seen economical difficulties that a big great country brought to the world???
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I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .
What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?
I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.
Somewhere between those?
I sold a P21+ recently for $6500, so I'd say the market is somewhere around there. Mine was low actuations with about a year and half of value added warranty.
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6500$ looks a realistic price now.
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I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .
What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?
I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.
Somewhere between those?
6500 for a P30 I think is a Joke..
I'll Buy everyone you can find for that price..:+]
If you can get a good P30 for 6500.. Buy it right away..:+]
Snook
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6500 for a P30 I think is a Joke..
I'll Buy everyone you can find for that price..:+]
If you can get a good P30 for 6500.. Buy it right away..:+]
Snook
Snook is absolutely correct. These are foolishly low prices most likely due to economic hardship of the seller. If you can get either of those for that low of a price then you should jump on it. Today a P21+ with a 1 year warranty would go for $8990 and above 9K for anything with a value added warranty. These 2 prices are if you purchased through a reputable dealer that will then provide tech and product support. One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser. This could add $399 in cost to you later.
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Snook is absolutely correct. These are foolishly low prices most likely due to economic hardship of the seller. If you can get either of those for that low of a price then you should jump on it. Today a P21+ with a 1 year warranty would go for $8990 and above 9K for anything with a value added warranty. These 2 prices are if you purchased through a reputable dealer that will then provide tech and product support. One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser. This could add $399 in cost to you later.
How much would it cost to have the P21+ compatible with a Contax 645?
Thanks!
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Snook is absolutely correct. These are foolishly low prices most likely due to economic hardship of the seller. If you can get either of those for that low of a price then you should jump on it. Today a P21+ with a 1 year warranty would go for $8990 and above 9K for anything with a value added warranty. These 2 prices are if you purchased through a reputable dealer that will then provide tech and product support. One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser. This could add $399 in cost to you later.
Dave, I love you but you and Snook are both incorrect. The P30 for $6500 that was mentioned was advertised on this forum and I bought it. I don't think there was too much of a stampede to get it, so I think that's market value, and considering that last year I could get a refurb P30 from a dealer for $10K, $6500 from an end user this year I don't think should surprise anybody. There has been another used P30 H listed on ebay five times in a row with a buy it now of $7500 which has never sold. I have offered the seller $6500 each time and he has declined it, but I think we can safely say that the market value of a used P30 is below $7500, since no one has bought it for that over a period of five listings, and ebay is the biggest market there is for used gear.
The P21+ that I sold went for $6500 on this forum to another forum member after I lowered the price $500/week starting at $9000. I think we can safely say that $6500 is also the market for a P21+. If you think it's below market, the buyer has decided medium format is not for him and has relisted it for sale on this forum and on ebay, you could buy it and resell it higher if it were actually below market. However if it were actually below market I would have done that already myself
Current market value for used Phase backs, based on prices I personally have paid or received in the last few months:
P21+, value added $6500
P30, $6500
P30+, $11,500
P30+, value added $12,500
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Dave, I love you but you and Snook are both incorrect. The P30 for $6500 that was mentioned was advertised on this forum and I bought it. I don't think there was too much of a stampede to get it, so I think that's market value, and considering that last year I could get a refurb P30 from a dealer for $10K, $6500 from an end user this year I don't think should surprise anybody. There has been another used P30 H listed on ebay five times in a row with a buy it now of $7500 which has never sold. I have offered the seller $6500 each time and he has declined it, but I think we can safely say that the market value of a used P30 is below $7500, since no one has bought it for that over a period of five listings, and ebay is the biggest market there is for used gear.
The P21+ that I sold went for $6500 on this forum to another forum member after I lowered the price $500/week starting at $9000. I think we can safely say that $6500 is also the market for a P21+. If you think it's below market, the buyer has decided medium format is not for him and has relisted it for sale on this forum and on ebay, you could buy it and resell it higher if it were actually below market. However if it were actually below market I would have done that already myself
Current market value for used Phase backs, based on prices I personally have paid or received in the last few months:
P21+, value added $6500
P30, $6500
P31+, $11,500
P31+, value added $12,500
Anton is correct. The selling price for these backs has dropped dramatically. This is why I have decided to make the move to MFDB .
I have been doing my research and have seen so far:
P30 $6500
P20 $4100
P21+ $6250
P21+ $5600 (currently listed in the for sale area: I'd buy it but I need H mount)
I was going to buy the P30 that Anton bought but I was too slow on the trigger.
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Current market value for used Phase backs, based on prices I personally have paid or received in the last few months:
P21+, value added $6500
P30, $6500
P31+, $11,500
P31+, value added $12,500
Could you edit your posting to clarify? A P31+ does not exist and I know you know your stuff so it must have been a mistype.
Used gear from an individual will often be less expensive, but always represents a bigger gamble/certainty and less support than from a dealer. Pick your poison.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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Anton is correct. The selling price for these backs has dropped dramatically. This is why I have decided to make the move to MFDB .
I have been doing my research and have seen so far:
P30 $6500
P20 $4100
P21+ $6250
P21+ $5600 (currently listed in the for sale area: I'd buy it but I need H mount)
I was going to buy the P30 that Anton bought but I was too slow on the trigger.
The upside to these back prices is if you've been renting, you can buy a quality medium format back for less than a few weeks rental.
The downside is if you paid retail you'd think you just bought a house in Vegas in 2007.
I've thought about selling my backs because they get less and less use, but in the end, I can't buy them for what I'd sell them for and once again, why rent when you can own?
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Could you edit your posting to clarify? A P31+ does not exist and I know you know your stuff so it must have been a mistype.
Used gear from an individual will often be less expensive, but always represents a bigger gamble/certainty and less support than from a dealer. Pick your poison.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
Sorry, yes I meant P30+ rather than P31+ in both instances. I'm not one of these "medium format is dead" or "Canon is just as good" types, obviously. But I do see a big challenge for medium format back makers this year, not from Hasselblad or Canon or Nikon, but from all the guys who bought from them last year or the year before. A lot of those people don't have the business or the finances to justify the purchase, and changes in the economy have forced them to look at that, cut bait, and put the backs up for sale. I've been buying backs with 2-3K actuations- I bought one H1 body with only 5 actuations! It's a complete buyers market, and most of the gear is practically new. Consequently prices have dropped through the floor on used gear. The used market is the big competition that medium format manufacturers and dealers will face this year. There is no replacement for the P30+ and they are readily available now used. The P65+ is expensive but has some compelling new features and I'll be buying at some point, but at the same time for most people the P65+ at $40K is up against $16-18K used P45+'s, usually with a warranty which transfers, and sometimes with cameras thrown in to boot. That's a tough sell.
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whats the cheapest a used H mount p45 around? i assume these will be quite affordable when the 65+ ships.
paul
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Sorry, yes I meant P30+ rather than P31+ in both instances. I'm not one of these "medium format is dead" or "Canon is just as good" types, obviously. But I do see a big challenge for medium format back makers this year, not from Hasselblad or Canon or Nikon, but from all the guys who bought from them last year or the year before. A lot of those people don't have the business or the finances to justify the purchase, and changes in the economy have forced them to look at that, cut bait, and put the backs up for sale. I've been buying backs with 2-3K actuations- I bought one H1 body with only 5 actuations! It's a complete buyers market, and most of the gear is practically new. Consequently prices have dropped through the floor on used gear. The used market is the big competition that medium format manufacturers and dealers will face this year. There is no replacement for the P30+ and they are readily available now used. The P65+ is expensive but has some compelling new features and I'll be buying at some point, but at the same time for most people the P65+ at $40K is up against $16-18K used P45+'s, usually with a warranty which transfers, and sometimes with cameras thrown in to boot. That's a tough sell.
I think the same things could be said for anyone selling homes (foreclosed properties are cheap), cars (flooded market of used cars and unsold 2008 models), or in general anything at all.
2009 will be a challenge for everyone. The recipe for success is the same as ever: focus on customer service, probe new markets, find ways to differentiate yourself (in this case from used gear) and give your customers value they can't find elsewhere. We are offering some of the best available training and setup on new backs for customers who are new to medium format, and getting creative on upgrades/trade-ins for customers who are moving up within the medium format world. The Value Added Warranty on new Phase One products are arguable the strongest warranty in the industry. And for those that are sitting on cash great deals are being had both individual-to-individual and at dealerships (car, boat, and digital back dealerships alike).
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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A lot of those people don't have the business or the finances to justify the purchase, and changes in the economy have forced them to look at that, cut bait, and put the backs up for sale.
Anton my man, this is the point that I was making. That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct. In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate". There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back. For Phase One DB's specifically....
1) What is the warranty left?
2) Classic or Value Added?
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?
So yes, deals can be found out there. But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.
Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board. We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner. We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.
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It was 4500 count, no warranty, classic, no free swap, no c1 pro, old firmware, but working flawlessly and sold because of economic hardship... and probably more backs will be sold by others dealing with this economic DEPRESSION. Have sold half my lenses as well.
Furthermore, there were five interested buyers.. so the market is not dead... I think I may have underpriced due to panic.
Anton my man, this is the point that I was making. That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct. In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate". There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back. For Phase One DB's specifically....
1) What is the warranty left?
2) Classic or Value Added?
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?
So yes, deals can be found out there. But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.
Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board. We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner. We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.
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It depends, if you are looking for a quick buy of MFDB or a good deal.
I bought my Sinarback 54M some months ago for $5200 including delivery.
In my opinion a good deal today for a 22 mega pixels back with a preview screen (can shoot un-tethered) is $5000-$5900.
I think P21+ has less mega pixels, I think it worth $4000-$4500 if it can make a very long exposures and that is important to you, otherwise I would buy a 22 megapixels back.
If you are a seller, then it's a different story.
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Anton my man, this is the point that I was making. That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct. In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate". There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back. For Phase One DB's specifically....
1) What is the warranty left?
2) Classic or Value Added?
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?
So yes, deals can be found out there. But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.
Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board. We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner. We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.
Just to be clear, I'm all about the dealer and in no way meant to cut into any dealers business. I'm in a position where I have enough warranty contracts that I'm pretty much covered on support when I need it. So my buying position is different from that of someone who doesn't currently own a back and is looking to buy their first one. I get the value added on all my new backs, and am willing to pay a premium for it on used ones, so I get your point above.
I went to Wikipedia to educate myself a bit on market value and came up with the following:
Market value is a concept distinct from market price, which is “the price at which one can transact”, while market value is “the true underlying value” according to theoretical standards. The concept is most commonly invoked in inefficient markets or disequilibrium situations where prevailing market prices are not reflective of true underlying market value. For market price to equal market value, the market must be informationally efficient and rational expectations must prevail. Market value is also distinct from fair value in that fair value depends on the parties involved, while market value does not.
I think I am talking about either market price or fair value, while you are talking about market value. I've been on both sides of the transaction in the last few months, and it seems to me that what matters is the price I can get a buyer to pay (if I'm selling) or what price I'm willing to pay (if I'm buying). If there's an abstract market value greater than that, it does me no good if I can't get a buyer who'll pay it. I thought $9K was a reasonable market value for my P21+, especially considering what I paid for it the year before and how little I'd used it, but the market thought otherwise. Likewise at $8500, $8000, $7500, and $7000. I got nibbles and feints but nobody who would pony up any cash until $6500. So maybe I sold below market value, but at market price. In any case, I think by the time the economy had recovered to the point that there were more buyers for an item of that dollar amount, technology would have marched on the point that there would be less buyers for a P21+, so I doubt I would have gotten any higher price by waiting.
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Technology marches on. The P21+ back is an 18MP back.
Today the 5Dmkii is 21MP and $3K.
Now I and most people here know that there is a big difference between the image quality between the two;
in the back of most peoples' minds they are thinking "it's only 18MP".
I shoot fashion/beauty. I want the richness and color that comes with a MFDB and the ability to make crops and still get a large image. When I
shoot macro beauty with what I have now... there is a limit to how large the print can be if I do any cropping. I don't need speed and I never
shoot above ISO 100.
I am still on a budget. I just want the most bang for my buck. I lucked into getting a Hasselblad H1 for peanuts ...from some rich person who
bought it and never used it aside from the odd birthday party.
My goal is to try to get a MFDB for around the same as a Canon 1Ds Mk III
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My goal is to try to get a MFDB for around the same as a Canon 1Ds Mk III
I don't know what the dealer situation is around where you live, but the Sinar eMotion 54 LV has recently dropped in price, and ought to be around that price. It is a 22MP back with 36x48mm size, and user-exchangeable adapters. Now, your dealer network might add a fee on that to push the price out of your range, or you might have no dealer around you who sells Sinar at all, but it would be worth considering.
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I don't know what the dealer situation is around where you live, but the Sinar eMotion 54 LV has recently dropped in price, and ought to be around that price. It is a 22MP back with 36x48mm size, and user-exchangeable adapters. Now, your dealer network might add a fee on that to push the price out of your range, or you might have no dealer around you who sells Sinar at all, but it would be worth considering.
A like new Sinar eMotion 54 LV was sold Dec-15-08 on eBay for $6,538.21 (32 bids, GBP 4,480.99 started from GBP 1.00).
It's the best 22MP, still in production, digital back today in my opinion, may worth that price (today), if can be found for a $6K in such condition it's a steal deal.
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Anton my man, this is the point that I was making. That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct. In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate". There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back. For Phase One DB's specifically....
1) What is the warranty left?
2) Classic or Value Added?
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?
So yes, deals can be found out there. But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.
Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board. We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner. We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.
I agree with you.
If you add most of the above points to the 7500$ ebay value for a p30 back, you will end well above the price that a dealer is asking for a reconditioned back with the warranty and support included.
Buying a 7500$ p30 back without warranty and support, would be like buying a Nikon D3x or equivalent Canon for 7500$, without warranty, support, with a few thousands captures already made, old batteries and no software. I wonder who would think that is a good deal.
7500$ is still a considerable amount of money, for buying something that may run in trouble of becoming a paper weight and not being covered.
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$4,499.95 Item number: 350147031713
This BUY IT NOW is for a Hasselblad Imacon Ixpress Digital Back Model 384. It is in Excellent+ condition with hardly any signs of wear! This fantastic digital back offers multishot functionality for extra versatility in the studio. With the 384C the professional photographer can shoot single shot, 4 shot or Hasselblad\'s patented 4*Res, producing beautiful files up to 384MB in size. It comes with the Ixpress Image Bank with a storage capacity of up to 1150 high-resolution images and power for up to 8 hours of constant shooting.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-Imacon-Ixpr...%3A1|240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-Imacon-Ixpress-Digital-Back-384-58490-BIN_W0QQitemZ350147031713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Camera_Accessories?hash=item350147031713&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
Edited to add: shutterblade is a very reputable seller. I bought from him a 45-90 Contax 645 lens, it was a good deal.
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I agree with you.
If you add most of the above points to the 7500$ ebay value for a p30 back, you will end well above the price that a dealer is asking for a reconditioned back with the warranty and support included.
Buying a 7500$ p30 back without warranty and support, would be like buying a Nikon D3x or equivalent Canon for 7500$, without warranty, support, with a few thousands captures already made, old batteries and no software. I wonder who would think that is a good deal.
7500$ is still a considerable amount of money, for buying something that may run in trouble of becoming a paper weight and not being covered.
How often do these things go wrong and how much is repair? If I buy a 2nd hand pro DSLR there is little likelyhood that anything other than perhaps the shutter will need replacing and that only if it has a high shot count, for a MFDB with a fraction of the moving parts, once it's working does the added cost really equal the potential cost of repair? Are these very expensive machines that unreliable, that bad a bet 2nd hand? What exactly wears out on these backs through use? Honest question.
I once went into a store selling grey market with a store warranty. I didn't trust them particularly (had a bad experience with them) and told them so. The guy laughed and said, what's the most you would have to spend on getting a lens repaired, because we're still cheaper after that repair than you would get the lens new elsewhere and you still get a warranty whether you trust it or not. Was food for thought at the time!
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How often do these things go wrong and how much is repair? If I buy a 2nd hand pro DSLR there is little likelyhood that anything other than perhaps the shutter will need replacing and that only if it has a high shot count, for a MFDB with a fraction of the moving parts, once it's working does the added cost really equal the potential cost of repair? Are these very expensive machines that unreliable, that bad a bet 2nd hand? What exactly wears out on these backs through use? Honest question.
I once went into a store selling grey market with a store warranty. I didn't trust them particularly (had a bad experience with them) and told them so. The guy laughed and said, what's the most you would have to spend on getting a lens repaired, because we're still cheaper after that repair than you would get the lens new elsewhere and you still get a warranty whether you trust it or not. Was food for thought at the time!
I have bought 2nd hand backs (as well as new) over the last 6 years and most of the time nothing goes wrong. This year I have had my first break down (a newly bought back!). A processor board needed replacement which set me back 3K USD (the back was already out of warranty by several months ). I have owned about 10 different backs and none of them ever had any problem.
It was a bad year anyway with also a H body breaking down I guess I have had my bad year of repairs and after 10 years of no failures with any piece of gear I guess this had to happen sooner or later.
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all that make sens to a point... but today if I will to buy a "new" ZD back in Canada with one year warranty... the price is set at $12000 almost TWICE as much as the previous version.... Little steep... and actually completely stupid.
Though I can still buy a Demo Kodak DCS at $9000 - better deal no?
so sure I'd rather 10 times buy something from ebay even without warranty and take a small risk to have a break down... So far in Canada not too many option. The official dealer prices make no sens.
I don't even talk about the phase prices.
that is the price we Can. have to pay for a monopoly
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I have bought 2nd hand backs (as well as new) over the last 6 years and most of the time nothing goes wrong. This year I have had my first break down (a newly bought back!). A processor board needed replacement which set me back 3K USD (the back was already out of warranty by several months ). I have owned about 10 different backs and none of them ever had any problem.
It was a bad year anyway with also a H body breaking down I guess I have had my bad year of repairs and after 10 years of no failures with any piece of gear I guess this had to happen sooner or later.
Then it seems like these DB makers are right to charge what they charge, since those backs never fail.
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I think this can help you :
Phase One P20 Digital Back for Mamiya 645AFD 3200 $ from Calumetphoto (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-P20-Digital-Back-for-Mamiya-645AFD_W0QQitemZ250344103105QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item250344103105&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
Phase One P45 Digital Back for Hasselblad H Series US $8,400.00 Calumetphoto (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-P45-Digital-Back-for-Hasselblad-H-Series_W0QQitemZ220331073938QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item220331073938&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
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I think this can help you :
Phase One P20 Digital Back for Mamiya 645AFD 3200 $ from Calumetphoto (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-P20-Digital-Back-for-Mamiya-645AFD_W0QQitemZ250344103105QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item250344103105&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
Phase One P45 Digital Back for Hasselblad H Series US $8,400.00 Calumetphoto (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-P45-Digital-Back-for-Hasselblad-H-Series_W0QQitemZ220331073938QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item220331073938&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
There was another p45 for Hasselblad from Calumet which went for 10500$ the same day. It is more or less what I paid for my P30 like new with almost zero captures, all the stickers still on, live view upgrade, new model battery charger, all the frills than comes with a purchase of a new Phase back, and all the warranties. yet, I do not think those from calumet have any software. warranty and support. well, maybe 3 months. who needs that anyway. right?
I have to say that when I saw that p45 going for 10 grands it made me wonder about my purchase a little.
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Software for all the DBs is free, and available for download at the manufacturer's site by simply registering the back in your name. Does C1Pro add any functionality when used only with PhaseOne backs? If you don't need it for any other cameras, what's the reason to buy it??
Kumar
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I think this can help you :
Phase One P20 Digital Back for Mamiya 645AFD 3200 $ from Calumetphoto (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-P20-Digital-Back-for-Mamiya-645AFD_W0QQitemZ250344103105QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item250344103105&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
Phase One P45 Digital Back for Hasselblad H Series US $8,400.00 Calumetphoto (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-P45-Digital-Back-for-Hasselblad-H-Series_W0QQitemZ220331073938QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item220331073938&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
both are sold
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$4,499.95 Item number: 350147031713
This BUY IT NOW is for a Hasselblad Imacon Ixpress Digital Back Model 384. It is in Excellent+ condition with hardly any signs of wear! This fantastic digital back offers multishot functionality for extra versatility in the studio. With the 384C the professional photographer can shoot single shot, 4 shot or Hasselblad\'s patented 4*Res, producing beautiful files up to 384MB in size. It comes with the Ixpress Image Bank with a storage capacity of up to 1150 high-resolution images and power for up to 8 hours of constant shooting.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-Imacon-Ixpr...%3A1|240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-Imacon-Ixpress-Digital-Back-384-58490-BIN_W0QQitemZ350147031713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Camera_Accessories?hash=item350147031713&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
Edited to add: shutterblade is a very reputable seller. I bought from him a 45-90 Contax 645 lens, it was a good deal.
Much too slow for fashion photography (http://www.paopu.net/spiffyshiz/site/SNAIL.gif)
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A like new Sinar eMotion 54 LV was sold Dec-15-08 on eBay for $6,538.21 (32 bids, GBP 4,480.99 started from GBP 1.00).
It's the best 22MP, still in production, digital back today in my opinion, may worth that price (today), if can be found for a $6K in such condition it's a steal deal.
THAT is what I am looking for ... a sweet deal like that
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THAT is what I am looking for ... a sweet deal like that
Unless you buy one of these backs out of the trunk of some guys car at the airport, or from a catalog house under the bridge that is still running old G4's your probably better off saving 3 grand and going used, warranty or not.
Haven't you seen the Phase One videos. Heck they cook their backs on a George Forman Grill and drive a car over them or something like that, so unless you leave it outside in the rain, it's probably going to be OK.
It all depends on what type of service you need. If your new to digital capture, or don't know the workings of the system, then yes a good dealer can be worth the extra expense.
Honestly the value added thing somewhat bothers me. I don't mind paying for service, I don't mind paying a premium for a an extended warranty, but at the costs of most of these items 2 years minimum should be standard and once again, if you drop it, it's going to be on you anyway.
Personally I know CI is a good dealer and will stand behind their service, but I'm not that wild about Phase's system of the dealer is the first line of defense. I would much rather go straight to the maker or the distributor's tech service and get a resolve. Filing a support claim with a dealer, then waiting for Phase to respond to them, who must in turn respond to you is just another delay that nobody has time for.
I recently had a new Canon take a heavy bump and go into repair. It was fixed same day at cost to me and since it was my fault I just accepted the costs. Yes it's under warranty but warranty shouldn't cover my mistake, just product defects.
Breaking stuff then paying to fix it is just part of running your own business.
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An Ixpress V96C ebay-ed for $7500 about 10 months ago, and now ebay-ed for ~$4500. 40% down.
A 22MP MFDB costed ~$19000 10 months ago now costs ~$9000 from any rental store. For ebay, $7500 should be a reasonable price.
It could be expected in another 10 months, any 22MP untethered MFDG sfor ~$4500 should be a common sense.
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Are Leaf Valeo 22wi any good?
The price seems right. How fast do they shoot? I think I saw 1.2s per capture.
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Are Leaf Valeo 22wi any good?
The price seems right. How fast do they shoot? I think I saw 1.2s per capture.
A Valeo22wi can only be used tethered or with a digital magazine. Not the most ideal solution if you want to be totally free in your movements. It doesn't have a screen though you can use it with an Ipaq and get a preview on it but beware many people have experienced problems with the reliability/stability of the Bluetooth connection. If those don't bother you a Valeo is a great back (I used a Valeo11 & Valeo17).
I suggest you look for either an Aptus17 or 22 in that case. Both are fantastic backs (I used to use an A17).
If speed is a real issue to you I suggest saving for the 54s. By far the fastest back you can get if I am not mistaken (I sometimes still dream of that one ).
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A Valeo22wi can only be used tethered or with a digital magazine. Not the most ideal solution if you want to be totally free in your movements. It doesn't have a screen though you can use it with an Ipaq and get a preview on it but beware many people have experienced problems with the reliability/stability of the Bluetooth connection. If those don't bother you a Valeo is a great back (I used a Valeo11 & Valeo17).
I suggest you look for either an Aptus17 or 22 in that case. Both are fantastic backs (I used to use an A17).
If speed is a real issue to you I suggest saving for the 54s. By far the fastest back you can get if I am not mistaken (I sometimes still dream of that one ).
i sold my valeo 22 for $3400usd the other day. its a really good back, its the tethering that gets to you. if you shoot studio all the time, i think a valeo would be perfect- fast shooting, quick- stable previews with lc11.2.
i have an aptus 22 now, and its almost identical in shoot speed and file. but now i can take it out without a laptop.
paul
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I think I'm going to have to buy a spare P21 as a backup at these prices. The P21 is a really great back, especially for editorial. I've had one for about 3 years now and it still makes me smile.
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Software for all the DBs is free, and available for download at the manufacturer's site by simply registering the back in your name. Does C1Pro add any functionality when used only with PhaseOne backs? If you don't need it for any other cameras, what's the reason to buy it??
Kumar
Kumar, C1 DB comes free and is easily/readily available to the public. There is no difference between C1 Pro and C1 DB when using a digital back. However, Capture One DB will not work with Canon/Nikon/Leica files.
Since many (most?) Phase owners have both a Phase One back and a Canon/Nikon/Leica. Having C1 Pro means you can use the same program to process all of your images (and tether to your Canons) and keep a more coherent workflow.
If you have zero interest in Nikon/Canon/Leica then C1 DB = C1 Pro.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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Kumar, C1 DB comes free and is easily/readily available to the public. There is no difference between C1 Pro and C1 DB when using a digital back. However, Capture One DB will not work with Canon/Nikon/Leica files.
Since many (most?) Phase owners have both a Phase One back and a Canon/Nikon/Leica. Having C1 Pro means you can use the same program to process all of your images (and tether to your Canons) and keep a more coherent workflow.
If you have zero interest in Nikon/Canon/Leica then C1 DB = C1 Pro.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
So if someone who got the DB version what to get the C1 pro has to buy from "scratch"?
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Haven't you seen the Phase One videos. Heck they cook their backs on a George Forman Grill and drive a car over them or something like that, so unless you leave it outside in the rain, it's probably going to be OK.
If you're going to leave the back in the rain, please use the Port Covers we sell. (fancy name for rubber stoppers which cover the firewire, sync, and multiport ports.
Kidding, mostly.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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So if someone who got the DB version what to get the C1 pro has to buy from "scratch"?
That's correct. There is no "upgrade" price from DB since it is free and publicly available.
You would need to buy a normal copy of C1 Pro for $300. One of the many gotchya's we've been talking about when discussing private-seller versus dealer-assisted used purchases, especially if you are relatively new to medium format or to Phase One.
Doug
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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Kumar, C1 DB comes free and is easily/readily available to the public. There is no difference between C1 Pro and C1 DB when using a digital back. However, Capture One DB will not work with Canon/Nikon/Leica files.
Since many (most?) Phase owners have both a Phase One back and a Canon/Nikon/Leica. Having C1 Pro means you can use the same program to process all of your images (and tether to your Canons) and keep a more coherent workflow.
If you have zero interest in Nikon/Canon/Leica then C1 DB = C1 Pro.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
Doug,
That's the gotcha I was talking about. Perhaps Dave could amend his post, where he says "One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser. This could add $399 in cost to you later." and in a later post when he asks "Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?" If a transfer of the license is possible an enduser could deal with PhaseOne directly. If the software with the back is the DB version, it does not matter, since it's free.
Kumar
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Honestly the value added thing somewhat bothers me. I don't mind paying for service, I don't mind paying a premium for a an extended warranty, but at the costs of most of these items 2 years minimum should be standard and once again, if you drop it, it's going to be on you anyway.
The real reasons to buy the valued added warranty are for the loaner and for the platform swap option. If it's out of warranty I think the minimum repair charge is $2500. I've had a power button stop working on one back and a firewire port go out on another, but other than that no problems with any Phase backs. I got a loaner in both cases same day, and each one was in Denmark a week at least. Since the dealers make a lot (most?) of their money from the value added, you can usually work a better deal on a back with a value added warranty than a classic warranty, so in the end the value added comes out to less than the $3000.
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Doug,
That's the gotcha I was talking about. Perhaps Dave could amend his post, where he says "One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser. This could add $399 in cost to you later." and in a later post when he asks "Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?" If a transfer of the license is possible an enduser could deal with PhaseOne directly. If the software with the back is the DB version, it does not matter, since it's free.
Kumar
See this is the kind of "seems simple, but isn't" that can catch you off guard (and frequently catches people off guard; i know because I take those calls).
The copy of C1 Pro included with a Value Added P1 Digital Back, once activated by someone, is technically (TOS in the software agreement) not allowed to be "transferred" to someone else. Now in practice there is nothing stopping one from having the seller change the password linked to the activation and then giving that password to the buyer. However, in practice buyers don't generally know to ask these things, and sellers who wouldn't even know how to change the password linked to that activation even if they wanted to. I can tell you that I've personally taken at least 10 calls this year from buyers of private-seller digital backs which were originally purchased with a Value Added Warranty asking how they could activate their copy of C1 Pro that they assumed was included when they purchased it.
Also, there are still quite a few people using Capture One 3.7 DB (for any number of reasons including the inability to run 4.5 Pro on OSX 10.4 or on a Power PC). With 3.7 DB you DO need a license which is given to the original buyer (whereas with 4.5 DB you do not need a license).
There are six versions of Capture One still being used (4.5 Pro, 4.5, 4.5 DB, 3.7 Pro, 3.7 LE, 3.7 DB) and varying upgrade policies and activation methods. It sounds pretty complicated (more than it really is), and if you're new to MFD there are many things like this which are simply much more efficient to work through with a dealer than to research on your own. It's not that you can't easily find the answer to questions by googling, it's that there are questions you should ask a private seller that you don't even know you need to ask.
I would say it is similar to buying a house without a real estate agent. Yes you can do it on your own, and nominally you might be able to save money since there is no middle man. But unless you've bought several homes in the past and unless you are very thorough you're likely to end up missing something (software, upgrade privileges, missing accessories, worn out batteries/accessories, warranty, repair history, special features like Live View, platform-swap privileges etc etc) that could easily erase that price gap. Just as one of a zillion examples: a seller who only shoots landscapes may not know that their flash sync port or firewire port are non-functional. Plus, if you go through a dealer and there is a problem that they are slow to fix then you can hold their feet to the fire on a forum like this.
Just a few months ago we sold a used back to a customer who took a jewelers magnifying loupe to the CCD filter and noticed a very very small nick outside of the photosensitive area of the sensor (i.e. it could not effect the final image). The gentlemen was very nice and easy to deal with, and when he insisted that he receive another back we found him another back with which he was happy. A good dealer can and will do that because we genuinely want our customers to be happy and because our long term success depends on our reputation.
Anyway, I'm as biased as can be because
1) my salary comes from a dealer and
2) I end up dealing with the mess/anger/frustration left behind by botched private sales when the buyer ends up without software, or with two batteries that barely hold any charge, or a broken component, or a scratch on a CCD. We get a call like that at least once a month. It's not pleasant. Sure there is PayPal buyer protection, or you could sue the seller or whatever, but how much of a PITA will that end up being? Trust me, chatting with a friendly dealer is much more fun than filling out PayPal buyer protection forms :-).
-- End shameless plug for buying from dealers --
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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Hey Doug,
I wasn't messing with you You've helped me enough for me to do that!! I was just asking about the software part. I personally have found Ulf at PhaseOne to be extremely responsive. I got an activation key for 3.7DB from him without a hassle within a few minutes even though I bought the back directly from another user.
Cheers,
Kumar
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Last closed auction for P-21 + at ebay . com
Happy New Year
Ended: Dec-28-08 20:29:43 PST
PHASE ONE P21+ DIGTAL CAMERA BACK FOR HASSELBLAD H1/H2 US $6,250.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/PHASE-ONE-P21-DIGTAL-CAMERA-BACK-FOR-HASSELBLAD-H1-H2_W0QQitemZ290279536647QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item290279536647&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
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The real reasons to buy the valued added warranty are for the loaner and for the platform swap option. If it's out of warranty I think the minimum repair charge is $2500. I've had a power button stop working on one back and a firewire port go out on another, but other than that no problems with any Phase backs. I got a loaner in both cases same day, and each one was in Denmark a week at least. Since the dealers make a lot (most?) of their money from the value added, you can usually work a better deal on a back with a value added warranty than a classic warranty, so in the end the value added comes out to less than the $3000.
When I first read your reply, I think yea, that makes senses. Why not spend $3,000 for what amounts to an extended warranty when repairs are $2,500 minimum.
Then I think hold it. Why is a stuck button cost $2,500 to fix, heck Canon will replace a 1ds Mark III sensor in 3 hours for that price, in fact Canon will sell your a new 21mpx 5d2 camera for close to that price.
The loaner system makes sense if you shoot in NY, your dealer is based across town and you use a popular mount like an H-system and happen to catch the dealer on the day they have one in stock. For the rest of us, like in Cooter, Mo. waiting for an overnight shipment might as well be two weeks, or two years because by then I've lost a lot more than $3,000 waiting for a replacement, then again I would never shoot any project without a comparable backup so the loaner thing really doesn't gain much traction.
Like you I've had few issues with the phase backs I have owned, except I find the firewire port is always a little loose and flaky feeling, but overall it's a solid piece of equipment.
I understand dealers have overhead, have to make money and I have nothing against the free market system, or even their role. If an extra $3,000 is worth it to you then it is, plain and simple.
If you need the dealer support, hand holding, instruction or help then go for it.
Still, $2,500 minimum for any repair? I think that needs a deep rethink on a lot of levels.
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When I first read your reply, I think yea, that makes senses. Why not spend $3,000 for what amounts to an extended warranty when repairs are $2,500 minimum.
Then I think hold it. Why is a stuck button cost $2,500 to fix, heck Canon will replace a 1ds Mark III sensor in 3 hours for that price, in fact Canon will sell your a new 21mpx 5d2 camera for close to that price.
The loaner system makes sense if you shoot in NY, your dealer is based across town and you use a popular mount like an H-system and happen to catch the dealer on the day they have one in stock. For the rest of us, like in Cooter, Mo. waiting for an overnight shipment might as well be two weeks, or two years because by then I've lost a lot more than $3,000 waiting for a replacement, then again I would never shoot any project without a comparable backup so the loaner thing really doesn't gain much traction.
Like you I've had few issues with the phase backs I have owned, except I find the firewire port is always a little loose and flaky feeling, but overall it's a solid piece of equipment.
I understand dealers have overhead, have to make money and I have nothing against the free market system, or even their role. If an extra $3,000 is worth it to you then it is, plain and simple.
If you need the dealer support, hand holding, instruction or help then go for it.
Still, $2,500 minimum for any repair? I think that needs a deep rethink on a lot of levels.
You know, with the ways things are I would have thought Phase One would have encouraged people to use their backs, but $2500 minimum for any repair ? Come on guys you've just frightened me off of any Phase back. While we're at it, what is the minimum repair cost for any of the other back makers?
I've always thought the MFDB industry behaved like the car industry and look what's happening to that at the moment . Classic and Value added Warranties, upgrade charges, promises of a better model next year, inflated prices and control of the second hand market. Software licences etc. etc. I think I'll stick to my new Nikon for the time being, it works straight out of the box, no worries or hassles.
Pete
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I am maybe going to sell my : P45 - Hasselblad H1 - HC 80mm - Hc 35mm - HC 210mm - film and polaroid Back (I am in France / Germany)
but I have not idea how much I can ask for it ?
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Ended: Dec-31-08 17:56:06 PST
Hasselblad H1 645 AF kit + Leaf Valeo 22Wi Digital back (22MP) seller Adorama Winning bid: US $5,995.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H1-645-AF-kit-Leaf-Valeo-22Wi-Digital-back_W0QQitemZ270321950136QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item270321950136&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
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You know, with the ways things are I would have thought Phase One would have encouraged people to use their backs, but $2500 minimum for any repair ? Come on guys you've just frightened me off of any Phase back. While we're at it, what is the minimum repair cost for any of the other back makers?
I've always thought the MFDB industry behaved like the car industry and look what's happening to that at the moment . Classic and Value added Warranties, upgrade charges, promises of a better model next year, inflated prices and control of the second hand market. Software licences etc. etc. I think I'll stick to my new Nikon for the time being, it works straight out of the box, no worries or hassles.
Pete
This may not be the exact answer, but thsi along with others should give you a good idea. I dropped my Hasselblad H on concrete floor, jammed the barrel of the lens into camera. Could not focus nor could remove the lens. Barrel was bent, FedEx to HasselbladUSA under $400 they FedEx back to me in three days. I thought it was reasonable, as they said Camera was OK, but replaced the barrel of the lens.
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Still, $2,500 minimum for any repair? I think that needs a deep rethink on a lot of levels.
If that is true, it is completely unfair way to make commerce.
If the "start" button of my BMW get stock (chances are it never will), first it will be in warranty for 4 years, 2nd they will be there to help me on a matter of 30 minutes, then if i'm out of warranty it will eventually cost few hundred dollars to repair, let's say maybe a thousand but that is a stretch even for BMW.
Charging a minimum tag of 2500$ for any repair, is completely out of this world. That makes me will to sell my Phase back before is out of warranty and go back to rental.
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I think that is completely unfair way to make commerce.
If the "start" button of my BMW get stock (chances are it never will), first it will be in warranty for 4 years, 2nd they will be there to help me on a matter of 30 minutes, then if i'm out of warranty it will eventually cost few hundred dollars to repair, let's say maybe a thousand but that is a stretch even for BMW.
Charging a minimum tag of 2500$ for any repair, is completely out of this world. That makes me will to sell my Phase back before is out of warranty and go back to rental.
Where does that $2500 minimum quote for repair work come from?
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Ended: Dec-31-08 17:56:06 PST
Hasselblad H1 645 AF kit + Leaf Valeo 22Wi Digital back (22MP) seller Adorama Winning bid: US $5,995.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H1-645-AF-kit-Leaf-Valeo-22Wi-Digital-back_W0QQitemZ270321950136QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item270321950136&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
I saw that but decided I wanted an lcd on the back
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Oh, I hate to post this.
I had a bid set up on this, then cancelled it. I am off on medical, just not up to using it enough to justify it. Plus I am in michigan - really a black hole right now
Leaf Aptus 75S Digital Camera Back for Hasselblad H $13,100 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250344410187)
Sold, from Calumet. Ebay ID 250344410187 (fixed link)
They have also been blowing out a lot of Profoto and Bron demo stuff at lowish prices.
Maybe just a glut on the market in some areas for a while.
Best,
Michael
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Oh, I hate to post this.
I had a bid set up on this, then cancelled it. I am off on medical, just not up to using it enough to justify it. Plus I am in michigan - really a black hole right now
[a href=\'index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\']Leaf Aptus 75S Digital Camera Back for Hasselblad H $13,100[/a]
From Calumet. They have also been blowing out a lot of Profoto and Bron demo stuff at lowish prices.
Maybe just a glut on the market in some areas for a while.
Best,
Michael
The link doesn't work? where's this located?
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The link doesn't work? where's this located?
i saw it on ebay- but its sold
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Where does that $2500 minimum quote for repair work come from?
The statement that Phase One charges a minimum of $2,500 is not correct. Repeat - not correct.
Phase One repair policy is that the cost of the repair is based on the actual parts and labor involved for that repair. And there is no minimum.
Not that digital back repairs aren't expensive - they are, it's an expensive product. But a $389 repair does not cost $2,500.
Please adjust your headsets accordingly.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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The statement that Phase One charges a minimum of $2,500 is not correct. Repeat - not correct.
Not that digital back repairs aren't expensive - they are, it's an expensive product. But a $389 repair does not cost $2,500.
Please adjust your headsets accordingly.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve,
Adjust them to what? I've heard this number before as have others, hence the reason the value added was preferable.
Roughly what is the average repair for a stuck button or replacement of a firewire port?
Where are the repairs done? Denmark, or other repair facilities?
Do value added repairs get priority?
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Steve,
Adjust them to what? I've heard this number before as have others, hence the reason the value added was preferable.
Roughly what is the average repair for a stuck button or replacement of a firewire port?
Where are the repairs done? Denmark, or other repair facilities?
Do value added repairs get priority?
There are standard set repair prices for out of warranty products that vary by model. I don't know if there are commoon sense exceptions for something that is a very low cost (like a stuck button). But a stuck button or firewire port replacement - while sounding relatively benign - can be a more expensive and complex repair than the terminology indicates.
Also, there is an annual extended warranty that is offered that costs $699 - $999 per year on an out of warranty product (depending on the product). This is less than the standard repair fee on any of the DB's.
Other than the owner receiving a replacement or loaner, there is no priority given to Value Add repairs over Classic. If anything, a classic repair might recive priority since that customer is without a loaner, although I dont know that this occurs. It is likely first come, first serve, but I don't know for sure.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Just a quick note that if you have a loaner and you, by great misfortune, have a problem with the loaner itself you will receive a second loaner.
Hope that makes sense. I've only had it happen to a customer once in 2008.
Just in case you were wondering.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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This might enlighten the dark secrets of pricing structures of warranties of Phase One backs. Me likey straight forward listed prices, Bravo.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-digital-back...%3A1%7C294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-digital-back-P20-P21-P25-P30-P45-P65_W0QQitemZ190277097975QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item190277097975&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)
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This might enlighten the dark secrets of pricing structures of warranties of Phase One backs. Me likey straight forward listed prices, Bravo.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-digital-back...%3A1%7C294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-digital-back-P20-P21-P25-P30-P45-P65_W0QQitemZ190277097975QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item190277097975&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)
I don't know what they are doing in the boardrooms of cameraland in January but I hope there giving their whole business model a rethink.
A year ago when home equity was going up 30% a year dropping an extra $15,000 to upgrade to a digital back, or buying a new $7,000 dslr was an easy thought, but today is different.
Today every purchase must count and I'm not buying anything that doesn't give me a clear advantage on what I shoot, what I invoice.
$2,500 for 3 years for a value added warranty might make sense for a $30,000 item, but since p21+'s are now selling lightly used at 6 grand, 31/39mpx backs are selling for under 12k, even $700 a year seems harsh considering a MAC warranty on a new $8,000 D3x is just $300 for three years.
I find the whole professional equipment makers business model frustrating. At the end of 2008 I was going to buy $24,000 in broncolor HMI's. I called one Sinar-Bron dealer that couldn't get any information (actually couldn't even find what was currently offered) and finally called the largest Sinar-Bron NY dealer that had information and experience with the Broncolor HMI's but virtually nothing in stock. His response was it should ship in 2 to 4 weeks, but Sinar-Bron closes for the holidays and most of January so he can't promise anything anytime, so I passed. I just knew that writing the check and having a box arrive with 1/4 of the order wasn't going to do anything but require 20 phone calls chasing down the equipment.
I was also going to buy a D3x before Jan. 1 and found one locally, but at $8,000 you know that in 4 months there will be a D800x or something like that that will do the same thing (probably offer video) and go for 1/2 that price.
So I did buy a 5dII on an impulse, thinking I would make it a video camera, took it out of the box once, found out that on video mode you can't manually control anything (without 4 ND filters and an old Nikon to Canon lens convertor) so I put it back in the box. I'll either return it or sell it, because as it stands it offers very little that my current high def video cameras give me.
Deep down I'm rooting for RED. Though today there is nothing there that will actually replace my medium format and 35mm dslrs, at least they are taking in feedback and hopefully will offer something I can't do without, vs. something I sort of wish I had.
Now in reality had Canon or Nikon offered a 20mpx still camera that shot hdv with manual controls I would have spent $8,000 and never looked back. Had the Broncolors been in stock I would have done the same, but instead I'll put the money back under the mattress.
Regardless of the cost, or usability, I strongly suggest that any camera, light, grip company that sells anything, offer clarity. Nobody want's to be fooled, nobody wants to think that a stuck button could cost $1,000 to fix and rather than run that risk pay $2,500 up front for an insurance policy that only covers the manufacturers defects in the first place.
There are a lot of topics on this board that cover a lot of territory and it all comes down to costs. Carrying multiple camera systems on Air Bosnia is now a nightmare. I've had those arguments where I say it fits, they say it's overweight, I say it cost 30 grand, they say tough, I say get the manager. So when it comes down to what camera I carry on board it's usually the one that will cover the most territory.
I recently moved equipment around the world and in that process of 9 airlines my baggage overage was close to $6,000. So once again, when you put everything on the floor and start counting what you must have, vs. what you would like to take with you, which cameras go and which cameras are left behind.
Which cameras can you replace in Korea, or Iowa and which ones require a dozen phone calls trying to get a replacement.
Edit:
Now maybe I'm not the normal buyer, but I don't like to rent I'd rather own and know my own equipment. Given this I went into the end of the year looking for a tax benefit thinking I'd spend around $24,000 or more and ended up with just a 5dII that I'll probably return. From 24k to 3k to 0 is a heck of a drop.
What I don't understand is I would have thought that the manufacturers would be pushing product and service like crazy. Since I own 3 Nikons, 4 canons, 1 leica and two Phase backs you'd think I would be on some kind of e-mail list of "sell that guy something in December", rather than just getting the standard e-mail blast all the makers send out.
If Phase had offered an extended warranty on my digital backs that wasn't $2,500 each, I might have gone for it, especially since all it really covers is a makers defect not some kind of damage or loss, but none of those offers graced my in box.
If Canon sent out a note saying "hey sorry, we forgot to give you manual controls on the 5d2 and we'll fix it next week", I'd probably have bought even more Canon stuff.
If Nikon had made the D3x a killer Cam rather than an almost medium format camera, as mentioned that 8 grand would have been easier to spend.
You would think with the advent of these combination cameras that eventually will shoot cinema quality video and high detailed stills, Profoto, Elinchrome, Sinar-Bron, would offer some kind of daylight balanced continuous light that a still photographer is familiar with, a system that lets us use our current modifiers, but at last check, Sinar-Bron hasn't even updated their hmi section on their website and Profoto discontinued their HMI's.
The Phase P65+ seems interesting to me, but not because of the added megapixels, but because there was talk about some kind of pixel binning to go to higher iso, but since that original photokina announcement there has been no information to explain this, so my money stays in my wallet.
Maybe business in camerland is better than I thought.
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I just have to say, when i look back how much i invested for the past few years on my equipment, i don't feel good when i have to think about current value of
my computers, cameras, lighting... As a photographers we have to survive if camera makers want to sell something to us. I think that every day will be more difficult to justify investing in newest line of product, i really hope that im wrong
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I just have to say, when i look back how much i invested for the past few years on my equipment, i don't feel good when i have to think about current value of
my computers, cameras, lighting... As a photographers we have to survive if camera makers want to sell something to us. I think that every day will be more difficult to justify investing in newest line of product, i really hope that im wrong
I have found that is always more useful to buy equipment behind the cutting edge. I mean sure it is nice to have the latest and greatest... but
you always pay a large premium. This is especially true with computers and digital cameras.
I can never justify the price of getting the newest gear because I am getting good results with gear that was formerly cutting edge.
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I just have to say, when i look back how much i invested for the past few years on my equipment, i don't feel good when i have to think about current value of
my computers, cameras, lighting... As a photographers we have to survive if camera makers want to sell something to us. I think that every day will be more difficult to justify investing in newest line of product, i really hope that im wrong
A camera purchase now is literally a computer purchase- cameras are computers with lenses, and camera gear now devalues at computer rates. My rule with both computers and cameras is that if I don't realistically think I can make an item pay for itself and turn a profit within a year I don't buy it.
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You would think with the advent of these combination cameras that eventually will shoot cinema quality video and high detailed stills, Profoto, Elinchrome, Sinar-Bron, would offer some kind of daylight balanced continuous light that a still photographer is familiar with, a system that lets us use our current modifiers, but at last check, Sinar-Bron hasn't even updated their hmi section on their website and Profoto discontinued their HMI's.
I don't think any strobe manufacturer has ever been successful with continuous light sources have they? Drop that $24K if you want, but I think in pretty short order you'll be sitting with some discontinued and unsupported product.
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I don't think any strobe manufacturer has ever been successful with continuous light sources have they? Drop that $24K if you want, but I think in pretty short order you'll be sitting with some discontinued and unsupported product.
Well, that's why I didn't buy them because I couldn't talk to the manufacturer. Though I used the 1200 and 575's in Southeast Asia and they were tremdous, put out a lot of light, and smaller than profoto acute packs.
Now they use the same ballast for both wattage, 800 and 575 and use most Bron modifiiers, but it's the size, you can travel with them, vs. taking large arri's.
Still, profoto hasn't made hmi's in a while and the few that are out there are going for the same price used as new.
We can't say that about almost anything we buy in the camera world.
But in regards to the comment of having success with HMI's, most of the strobe manufacturer's never offered them when digital dslrs had moved to higher mpx and iso.