Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: lcastric on December 07, 2008, 11:49:04 am
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I am very disappointed with the print quality of the 3100z where reds are involved. This is a big problem with South West landscape photography.
Has anyone had success with work arounds? or beating on HP for a fix for the 3100z, not shelling out for the 3200z!
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The best solution we have found is to use the Advanced Profiling Solution from HP. This adds serious horsepower to the onboard profiling solution inherent in the Z solution. Next print with Qimage. This solved the problem for us, we are able to match our Silver Halide photo prints with the inkjet canvas product we produce. The reds are on the edge sometimes but nowhere near the problem we had before. Cheapest and easiest solution out there, trust me we have bled the blood on this solution.
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I have found Monaco Profiler profiles with the perceptual rendering saturation cranked up to the 40-50 range to offer the best results. I found this to be better than the HP APS system when I compared them using firmware v5.
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For me the biggest consideration was using papers that are friendly to the Vivera inkset in the Z. HP papers are optimized with special coatings but several other brands work well too.
What papers are you disappointed with the reds?
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For me the biggest consideration was using papers that are friendly to the Vivera inkset in the Z. HP papers are optimized with special coatings but several other brands work well too.
What papers are you disappointed with the reds?
Thanks for your reply. I've had severe problems with Breathing Color's Chromata White, Epson Semi Matte and Enhanced Matte. Can you tell me what HP papers you like and the other brand names? Thanks.
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The best solution we have found is to use the Advanced Profiling Solution from HP. This adds serious horsepower to the onboard profiling solution inherent in the Z solution. Next print with Qimage. This solved the problem for us, we are able to match our Silver Halide photo prints with the inkjet canvas product we produce. The reds are on the edge sometimes but nowhere near the problem we had before. Cheapest and easiest solution out there, trust me we have bled the blood on this solution.
Thanks for your reply. Is your method just a straight forward application of the APS? Thanks.
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Papers I use that I'd recommend are:
- HP Premium Instant-Dry Satin
- HP Pro High-Gloss Contract Proofing Paper
- HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art
- HP Matte Litho-Realistic Paper
- HP Pro Satin
- Moab Entrada
- Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin
I also use Epson Enhanced Matte or whatever they're calling it these days but my use of it has waned since acquiring the HP Matte Litho-Realistic.
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I am very disappointed with the print quality of the 3100z where reds are involved. This is a big problem with South West landscape photography.
Has anyone had success with work arounds? or beating on HP for a fix for the 3100z, not shelling out for the 3200z!
For what it's worth, I've been quite satisfied with reds from the plain vanilla Z3100 (no APS), at least on satin/semigloss type papers. HP's professional satin is quite good for reds, and I actually used quite a bit of Epson's premium luster because it was relatively inexpensive, but had a similar color gamut.
HP's newer Baryte satin fine art paper actually produces a really good red/orange gamut on the Z3100, though this paper is just a bit too thin and will cockle/buckle under the inkload if you produce a very dark print with lots of shadow areas. For fall color or red rock images it's very nice.
It's fair to say that red gamut with the Z3100 on matte papers is not that great, comparing unfavorably to my older Epson 7600 in shadow areas at least. HP's version of Hahnemüle smooth fine art using the 'canned' profile produces a red which is...adequate at best. Using the on-board spectro, my profile yielded a visibly inferior red saturation. On the other hand, I get a perfectly acceptable red on Hahnemüle photo rag satin, which is a unique paper that displays a semi-satin sheen in the inked areas after printing.
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For what it's worth, I've been quite satisfied with reds from the plain vanilla Z3100 (no APS), at least on satin/semigloss type papers.
When I've made prints of the same evaluation image on all three printers (HP Z3100, Epson K3, Canon x100) on several photo/RC papers I consistently found the Z3100 to have disappointing reds relative to the other printers. The reds aren't bad in comparison to mate papers but not as good as the other printers on the same photo/RC papers. It's a good thing they are taking care of this with the Z3200.
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When I've made prints of the same evaluation image on all three printers (HP Z3100, Epson K3, Canon x100) on several photo/RC papers I consistently found the Z3100 to have disappointing reds relative to the other printers. The reds aren't bad in comparison to mate papers but not as good as the other printers on the same photo/RC papers. It's a good thing they are taking care of this with the Z3200.
Exactly, the Z3200 was designed to address this. The issues is most noticeable on matte papers, and perhaps even more on non-HP papers. On the gloss/luster papers I've never had any issues. The profile certainly makes a big difference as does rendering intent, these differences seem to be more dramatic with the Z3100 than with 8 color Epsons. Make sure you have the latest firmware and with some papers you will need to experiment with media type settings during the profiling process. All of the above suggestions should help you see improvements.
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When I've made prints of the same evaluation image on all three printers (HP Z3100, Epson K3, Canon x100) on several photo/RC papers I consistently found the Z3100 to have disappointing reds relative to the other printers. The reds aren't bad in comparison to mate papers but not as good as the other printers on the same photo/RC papers. It's a good thing they are taking care of this with the Z3200.
This is highly dependent on the specific paper and profile you are talking about. Using an HP Z3100 with HP's Baryte satin paper and either HP's canned profile or the profile generated with the on-board spectro, I get screaming neon orange/red saturation that beats anything I ever got from an Epson 7600, and matches the best result I get from an Epson 2400 on premium luster paper. Dark maroon reds in shadow areas can't quite match the K3 printers. On the other hand, Z3100 reds on any matte paper I've tried are quite clearly not in the same league as the equivalent Epson output on a similar surface.
It's all in what you like to photograph and print. The Z3100 produces greens, blues and cyans that are hands down better than anything you'll get from an equivalent Epson K3 printer. The newer Epson 'vivid magenta' inkset closes the gap, but still doesn't do quite as good a job on a cobalt blue sky with neutral clouds, at least in my hands. Individual skill and experience with the specific hardware/paper/inkset/profile combination has a lot to do with the final result.
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This is highly dependent on the specific paper and profile you are talking about.
Right. What I'm saying is that if I profile all three printers the same way on the same paper and compare the results (including a print made using the Z3100's profile) the Z3100 prints have consistently inferior reds wither it's on Hahnemuhle Baryta, Fine Art Pearl, Epson Premium Luster, Photo Rag etc. Z3100 owners often say "it's not bad on these papers" but one really has to do a fair side-by-side comparison to realize what one is missing.
All three brands have their advantages and disadvantages but the reds have clearly been a weakness for the z3100, relative to the competition. HP has denied it, claimed to have fixed it and then silently acknowledged the problem by releasing a new inkset with better reds.
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... the Z3100 prints have consistently inferior reds wither it's on Hahnemuhle Baryta, Fine Art Pearl, Epson Premium Luster, Photo Rag etc.
No doubt, Scott. For many of us the reds aren't a serious problem though and I think the reds may be helped a bit by papers with coatings optimized for the Z3100 such as the HP papers. Not perfect for sure but perhaps acceptable in some circumstances.
If I was doing art reproductions I'd not be using the Z3100 for work that had critical reds. For the work I print its good enough when I chose paper thoughtfully.
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After a year and a half of using the Z3100 (44 inch model), I've only had one instance with a print containing a poor looking red and that was shortly after I installed the printer, using Premier Photo Luster paper. I don't know what I did to resolve the problem, it seemed to take care of itself by my calibrating everything with each new roll of paper, and making sure I had all the updates to firmware/software installed. I've tested the same image since and it seems to do fine now. I've no complaints.
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After a year and a half of using the Z3100 (44 inch model), I've only had one instance with a print containing a poor looking red and that was shortly after I installed the printer, using Premier Photo Luster paper. I don't know what I did to resolve the problem, it seemed to take care of itself by my calibrating everything with each new roll of paper, and making sure I had all the updates to firmware/software installed. I've tested the same image since and it seems to do fine now. I've no complaints.
Me too - No red problems yet - at all. after 10 months using Z3100 ( 24" model, no APS); my reds match my screen appearance very closely. That said - I use primarily one paper - Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin, and occasionally Cranes Silver Rag. Also, my color work may not be the most highly saturated out there. But, based on my work - I would not even know about the red problem, unless I read about it.
Howard
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Me too - No red problems yet - at all.
Are you working with images with very saturated reds? Are you comparing prints to prints from other printers? If you answer "no" to either question you either don't have a demand for better reds or may not realize what you're missing. Cheers if you're getting great prints and are happy with them.
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Are you working with images with very saturated reds? Are you comparing prints to prints from other printers? If you answer "no" to either question you either don't have a demand for better reds or may not realize what you're missing. Cheers if you're getting great prints and are happy with them.
Scott did you read my complete post? I said that I was getting a very close screen match - what's not to be happy with? Are you suggesting that I should be happier with prints that are more saturated than my soft proofs? or are coming out of the printer with a different red than on my screens? so that I would have to reduce the saturation in my Photoshop files? Or change the Hue? Accuracy is what satisfies me. I assume, from the agrieved posts, some peoples work have reds that are not matching - different work - different reds.
Howard
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So are you working with AdobeRGB 255,0,0 reds or 200,50,50 reds? If you aren't working with very saturated reds to begin with then you might not see the problem that so many people have struggled with, relative to other printers.
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So are you working with AdobeRGB 255,0,0 reds or 200,50,50 reds? If you aren't working with very saturated reds to begin with then you might not see the problem that so many people have struggled with, relative to other printers.
Scott -
Well, you do have a point - at 255,0,0 red I get the Photoshop gamut warning - so I am probably closer to working, usually within the 255,50,50 limits. But then again for my work -that is plenty red enough ... now, if I start to specialize in tropical reef fish, or neon sign photos, or whatever - I may have to pony up for the new Z3200.
Howard
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Comparing to other printers is a test of relativity. I agree with Howard here, what is important is that they closely match your monitor soft proof. Now, if I had my old epson sitting here and noticed the two didn't match each other, it would probably drive me nuts.
Scott did you read my complete post? I said that I was getting a very close screen match - what's not to be happy with? Are you suggesting that I should be happier with prints that are more saturated than my soft proofs? or are coming out of the printer with a different red than on my screens? so that I would have to reduce the saturation in my Photoshop files? Or change the Hue? Accuracy is what satisfies me. I assume, from the agrieved posts, some peoples work have reds that are not matching - different work - different reds.
Howard
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Comparing to other printers is a test of relativity. I agree with Howard here, what is important is that they closely match your monitor soft proof.
Right, and if you had all three brand of printers in front of you and were dealing with lots of saturated red content, the Z3100 might drive you nuts. This is/was good feedback for prospective buyers.
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Just as a visual example - here is a crop from an image containing what I consider to be a fairly saturated red. This reproduces very precisely on my Z3100 on photo-type papers. The most saturated things in my photos tend to be like this... and I consider even this to be a little over the top for my taste
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A few days ago I printed an art reproduction (edition of 60 reproductions). It was the second part of the job, what I want to say is: I did the first prints in april this year (with a profile made with the non APS machine) and now I had the profile made with APS software.
And - guess what? The red with APS were worse than with the non APS profile! Reprofiled again and fortunately hat the old profile from april to compare with. Reprinted with the old profile... and bummer, the old look came back.
This on HP Hahnemühle Textured FAP.
The reds were less saturated, more brown, and simply did not "jump into someones eye" like before.
So, its not the printer, its the software. I thought I would get better print quality in the reds when using the APS. Wrong thought.
So, you guys from HP: would you please do your job and work out a better color rendering for the 3100?
Best,
Clem
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So, its not the printer, its the software.
Exactly! The driver's separation parameters call for transitioning to almost all red ink when approaching 255,0,0. If you do a nozzle check you can see that the red ink is really a lame orange. Epson gets better reds by mixing magenta and yellow. Canon iPF printers do an excellent job balancing magenta, yellow and red ink to get a saturated red with impressive smoothness.
When the Zseries came out I noticed that I could get better reds with a few RIPs than I could with the driver and it's because of the differences in separation parameters. StudioPrint for example gives one the ability to calibrate and profile with and without the lame orange ink so one can compare the results. Very enlightening. It's too bad HP's engineers didn't find this feedback enlightening, wouldn't admit to a red gamut problem, later claimed to have fixed the red gamut problem with a firmware update (which did help some but not enough) and then eventually replaced their inkset with a real red ink.
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I have a 3100, APS, and get terrible reds on HP PhotoLitho. I get great reds on Canvas (various MFG's). I do ok with Moab Entrada.
I can take the same roll of HP PhotoLitho, walk across the room and put it on a 6 color HP5000 with UV Inks, and get a great red. Go figure.
Trying to get any help at all from Hp on any of the printers (I own 4 HP's) is worse than getting teeth pulled. I've given up at this point, and have just placed an order for a 60" Canon 9100 12 color. Maybe they can support what they sell.
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Exactly! The driver's separation parameters call for transitioning to almost all red ink when approaching 255,0,0. If you do a nozzle check you can see that the red ink is really a lame orange. Epson gets better reds by mixing magenta and yellow. Canon iPF printers do an excellent job balancing magenta, yellow and red ink to get a saturated red with impressive smoothness.
When the Zseries came out I noticed that I could get better reds with a few RIPs than I could with the driver and it's because of the differences in separation parameters. StudioPrint for example gives one the ability to calibrate and profile with and without the lame orange ink so one can compare the results. Very enlightening. It's too bad HP's engineers didn't find this feedback enlightening, wouldn't admit to a red gamut problem, later claimed to have fixed the red gamut problem with a firmware update (which did help some but not enough) and then eventually replaced their inkset with a real red ink.
Scott,
I'm curious if this is something than might be partially mitigated in softproofing or by editing the profile? I know its not a fix to the problem....
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Scott,I'm curious if this is something than might be partially mitigated in softproofing or by editing the profile? I know its not a fix to the problem....
One can certainly use soft proofing to simulate the disappointing reds. RGB driver profiles don't contain separation parameters for one to tweak so no - if you are using the driver you are stuck with it's built in separation parameters.
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Im really discusted with the whole Z3200 thing.
There is an option to purge the inks - and even if not that then you can change the lines and the print head and there is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON that this chromatic red can't be made available for the z3100 owners.
I am _NOT_ buying another Z printer - newer model or whatever ... but I might go out and get a different brand
Z3100 owners should really band together and b!t%h and complain about this.
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One can certainly use soft proofing to simulate the disappointing reds. RGB driver profiles don't contain separation parameters for one to tweak so no - if you are using the driver you are stuck with it's built in separation parameters.
Actually, what I was thinking of is perhaps during softproofing a deep red area (255,0,0 - your example) we might be able to mitigate the problem using selective colors or something to add some magenta and yellow. Would this help?
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Actually, what I was thinking of is perhaps during softproofing a deep red area (255,0,0 - your example) we might be able to mitigate the problem using selective colors or something to add some magenta and yellow. Would this help?
No because RGB 255,0,0 is as red as it gets just as CMYK 0,100,100,0 is as magenta and yellow as it gets. The *device* red is being restricted because of the driver's built in separation parameters that we can't override without switching to a RIP.
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Im really discusted with the whole Z3200 thing.
There is an option to purge the inks - and even if not that then you can change the lines and the print head and there is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON that this chromatic red can't be made available for the z3100 owners.
I am _NOT_ buying another Z printer - newer model or whatever ... but I might go out and get a different brand
Z3100 owners should really band together and b!t%h and complain about this.
I can't say as I agree. Each generation of inkjets has its own dithering algorithms and crossover points set into hardware/firmware, with little margin for drastic alteration like a completely new ink color. All of the current large format inkjets have their strengths and weaknesses. I worked with Epsons for years, and struggled to get decent results way back when from the original pigment ink printer, the 2000P. Anyone who printed with one of them can tell you about the horrific metamerism and weak blacks it produced. By the first generation 'ultrachrome' printers (2200/7600/9600) you could get quite good color prints on rag paper, but neutral black & white remained a real can of worms and the black ink swap just made me crazy. Epson's K3 printers were better, the vivid magenta K3 better yet...but still with the black swap thing! I do a lot of black & white on various papers, and this is a deal-breaker for me.
Nowadays we have some real choices, and what's best depends on what your own images need. I have the original Z3100 without APS, and my Epsons have all been gathering dust since I bought it. On the right paper, I get very good reds and oranges out of it. Could I get more red saturation out of an Epson 7880? No doubt. But blues/greens are just fantastic from the Z3100; I get cobalt blue skies that really look right, something I could never get from the Epsons I used, and green foliage is perfect. And for all my black & white work, there's nothing better. HP's Vivera black/grey inks are markedly more neutral than Epson's K3 of any flavor, the d-max on matte/rag papers is visibly darker, and...no more black swapping! Moreover, I couldn't be happier with the built-in spectro. The profiles it yields for 3rd party papers have consistently met my needs.
So I guess if I were printing predominantly neon fall color shots or lots of red rock Western landscapes, one of the newer Epsons would be the first choice. But unless I was willing to spend an additional $1,000 for a 7900, I'd still be stuck with black swapping. Hmmph.
Anyway, I'd rather be making some really beautiful prints than obsessing about the last 2% of inkset red gamut. Too much like pixel-peeping with new D-SLR's.
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I have a 3100, APS, and get terrible reds on HP PhotoLitho. I get great reds on Canvas (various MFG's). I do ok with Moab Entrada.
Marc, Thanks for your comment. I'm having big time reds problems on Breathing Color's Chromata White. What Canvases work well for you? Thanks.
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Marc, Thanks for your comment. I'm having big time reds problems on Breathing Color's Chromata White. What Canvases work well for you? Thanks.
I've just run a 1/2 dozen rolls of Intellicoat Torino that came with the purchase of a business I bought out. I was surprised how well the reds printed. You might want to pick up a small roll and try it. I profiled it with the APS.
Also ran some IJT waterproof canvas. Not sure of the number, but it printed very well also.
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I've just run a 1/2 dozen rolls of Intellicoat Torino that came with the purchase of a business I bought out. I was surprised how well the reds printed. You might want to pick up a small roll and try it. I profiled it with the APS.
Also ran some IJT waterproof canvas. Not sure of the number, but it printed very well also.
The Torino 17M, I use it most of the time. Dries fast too. The only comment I got on a list is that it has OBA's. That's correct. Intelicoat's coatings are good though. I have an affordable 190 grams dual coated paper from Intelicoat that is equal in image quality to EEM but a nicer paper. OBA's too though.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)