Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: kendal on November 18, 2008, 04:01:25 pm
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Hi, I'am looking for a camera system for product photography in studio. at the moment I can not afford a digital back, so I have to build the system around my nikon D3 for the moment.
I tried the cambo X-2 in combination with a my nikon D3 and a schneider 80mm lens. - the image quality of the schneider lens is outstanding, but the handling, precision and quality of the cambo X-2 is not what I have expected and is not that great. very limited in movements (tilt/shift) and handling.
Now I'am thinking about a Sinar P camera in combination with my nikon D3 mounted with a just-together adapter (www.just-together.de). then later I can always upgrade to a digital back.
- what do you guys think about such a combination (Sinar P with DSLR)?
- are there any limitations, drawbacks when used with a DSLR (movements, crop factor ...)?
- where is the differnce between sinar p2, sinar p3, sinar f3, sinar x
- would the sinar P be a good investment to build a good product photography camera system?
thanks, and sorry for my "english"
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I If i were you Id look at the Cambo Ultima 35 with the nikon mounting system.
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Hi, I'am looking for a camera system for product photography in studio. at the moment I can not afford a digital back, so I have to build the system around my nikon D3 for the moment.
I tried the cambo X-2 in combination with a my nikon D3 and a schneider 80mm lens. - the image quality of the schneider lens is outstanding, but the handling, precision and quality of the cambo X-2 is not what I have expected and is not that great. very limited in movements (tilt/shift) and handling.
Now I'am thinking about a Sinar P camera in combination with my nikon D3 mounted with a just-together adapter (www.just-together.de). then later I can always upgrade to a digital back.
- what do you guys think about such a combination (Sinar P with DSLR)?
- are there any limitations, drawbacks when used with a DSLR (movements, crop factor ...)?
- where is the differnce between sinar p2, sinar p3, sinar f3, sinar x
- would the sinar P be a good investment to build a good product photography camera system?
thanks, and sorry for my "english"
Your big drawback is the crop factor lack of wide but for products that should not be a problem
Also you will not be able to get some lenses to focus to infinity because of the mirror box fouling the rear element of the lens - you would need to research it but again only really applicable to wide lenses
I think using the D3 on a P would be great because of the fantastic live view on the the camera - better than any digiback by miles
If you got a sliding back and were able to take three shots together you would have DB quality for still life images without the cost of buying a DB
Of course there would be extra workflow stitching three pics together
Stitching works great on a view camera because the stationary lens meens there are no stitching errors unlike spinning a camera on a tripod and trying to stitch
A P2 is 54 size, A P3 is 645 size with finer gearing for more accurate focus and movements
I think the focus is fine with a P2 - although shooting on a digiback with slow shit liveview* (Sinar 54LV) is a right pain
I think an X is half of a P2 and Half of an F2
P for Proper F for flimsy - son dont bother with that
As you can get a P2 for nearly nothing now that is the way to go in my opinion - and it has more room for big movements
I dont know if you get colour shifts with big movements you would have to test
or you could buy an 85PC lens
(by the way I own a P2 and a sinar 54LV and a D3 ! )
The product you are investigating does not seem to have a sliding back - I think you really need to have a sliging back so you can make two or three shots to get the most from a sinar
SMM
*Before TH jumps to the defence of Sinar Live view it might work fine with fancy electronic shutters but the workflow is terrible with copal shutters which have to be manually stopped up and down and then 'cocked'
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You can use the camera's rear movements for stitching.
@morgan have you tested the P3 with a sliding adapter? or the P2 with the Cambo sliding for sinar? I'm looking at getting something soon and cant really test anything before buying.
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Hi, I'am looking for a camera system for product photography in studio. at the moment I can not afford a digital back, so I have to build the system around my nikon D3 for the moment.
I tried the cambo X-2 in combination with a my nikon D3 and a schneider 80mm lens. - the image quality of the schneider lens is outstanding, but the handling, precision and quality of the cambo X-2 is not what I have expected and is not that great. very limited in movements (tilt/shift) and handling.
Now I'am thinking about a Sinar P camera in combination with my nikon D3 mounted with a just-together adapter (www.just-together.de). then later I can always upgrade to a digital back.
- what do you guys think about such a combination (Sinar P with DSLR)?
- are there any limitations, drawbacks when used with a DSLR (movements, crop factor ...)?
- where is the differnce between sinar p2, sinar p3, sinar f3, sinar x
- would the sinar P be a good investment to build a good product photography camera system?
thanks, and sorry for my "english"
Hi,
The live view function will make scheimpflugin on a Sinar P2 much easier than it would be thru the viewfinder of your Nikon. The limitation of tilts and shifts are probably due to the mirror box and not because the X2 has limited movements. Try to see if it's the mirror box shadowing and limiting your movements rather than the X2.
Sinar P2 is the best camera ever and definetely a good investment and can be had second hand for peanuts. I just traded my HC 80mm lens for a full Sinar P2 system in very very nice condition. Ask around your fellow photographers for used deals.
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Hi,
The live view function will make scheimpflugin on a Sinar P2 much easier than it would be thru the viewfinder of your Nikon. The limitation of tilts and shifts are probably due to the mirror box and not because the X2 has limited movements. Try to see if it's the mirror box shadowing and limiting your movements rather than the X2.
Sinar P2 is the best camera ever and definetely a good investment and can be had second hand for peanuts. I just traded my HC 80mm lens for a full Sinar P2 system in very very nice condition. Ask around your fellow photographers for used deals.
I have great live view function on my Nikon D3. What about the slow shit liveview* (Sinar 54LV) Morgan_Moore mentioned?
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I have great live view function on my Nikon D3. What about the slow shit liveview* (Sinar 54LV) Morgan_Moore mentioned?
What do you use our D3 live view for?
Do you have the LC shutter for your Sinar 54LV? Maybe that would help?
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Quick snappshot of the Sinar-X, which is basically identical to the P2, but the geared movements don't click when you reach the "0" position.
In the front is the bellows and front standard from the F series. At the back is the Linhof sliding adaptor and an Aptus 65 with cables connecting to a Rollei shutter and Rollei ControlS. And in the background you can just see the NEC 30" Spectraview, a gem of a monitor.
Notice that I use the Sinar turned 90 degrees. This is something that doesn't occur to many people, and depends on what you are shooting, it's very convenient. The camera is fitted to a geared studio stand.
Edward
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Edward,
I like to use the camera this way sometimes too. One remark: you are loosing the "yawfreeness" by turning the camera by 90°.
One question: is the Linhof sliding adapter image plane in the tilt and swing axis of the camera, or do you have to compensate focusing when tilting/swinging?
Best regards,
Thierry
Quick snappshot of the Sinar-X, which is basically identical to the P2, but the geared movements don't click when you reach the "0" position.
In the front is the bellows and front standard from the F series. At the back is the Linhof sliding adaptor and an Aptus 65 with cables connecting to a Rollei shutter and Rollei ControlS. And in the background you can just see the NEC 30" Spectraview, a gem of a monitor.
Notice that I use the Sinar turned 90 degrees. This is something that doesn't occur to many people, and depends on what you are shooting, it's very convenient. The camera is fitted to a geared studio stand.
Edward
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Notice that I use the Sinar turned 90 degrees. This is something that doesn't occur to many people, and depends on what you are shooting, it's very convenient. The camera is fitted to a geared studio stand.
Edward
But DON'T try this if you do not have a solid studio stand. If you use a tripod, there's a good chance that it will come crashing down!
Kumar
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Edward,
I like to use the camera this way sometimes too. One remark: you are loosing the "yawfreeness" by turning the camera by 90°.
One question: is the Linhof sliding adapter image plane in the tilt and swing axis of the camera, or do you have to compensate focusing when tilting/swinging?
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I seem to remember that the plane of focus is the same (or very close) as with the normal film ground glass. But the tilt/swing axis which in the Sinar has never been in the middle of the ground glass, it is designed and placed for 5x4 format and not placed where it should be for a small sensor size. However, in practice I still find Sinar to be very quick at setting your tilts/swings, I adapted from film to digital very quickly in terms of using the camera, but then I am used to it, I bought and used my first Sinar P about 20 years ago and it's still working, although now I have it as a spare. The old teflon gearing does wear after a while, and the original central rail grip was not very good, it couldn't hold the camera weight very well, but a modern Sinar grip will fit the old P, as everything is still interchangeable.
Notice that I still use a glass focusing screen, I find the instant visual feedback much quicker for setting up composition, tilts and focus than the Live View, although I always quickly use Live View to fine tune the focus prior to shooting.
I don't encourage people to use Sinar view cameras for digital, please please, don't buy them, as they may start to go up in price and then no more bargains!
Edward
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Thierry,
I seem to remember that the plane of focus is the same (or very close) as with the normal film ground glass. But the tilt/swing axis which in the Sinar has never been in the middle of the ground glass, it is designed and placed for 5x4 format and not placed where it should be for a small sensor size. However, in practice I still find Sinar to be very quick at setting your tilts/swings, I adapted from film to digital very quickly in terms of using the camera, but then I am used to it, I bought and used my first Sinar P about 20 years ago and it's still working, although now I have it as a spare. The old teflon gearing does wear after a while, and the original central rail grip was not very good, it couldn't hold the camera weight very well, but a modern Sinar grip will fit the old P, as everything is still interchangeable.
Yes, right, the tilt and swing axis on the Sinar p models are asymmetric axis (lower doted line for H and right dotted line for V axis on the ground glas).
Sinar had a carrier frame to get the back exactly in he tilt and swing axis. If you don't have it, it needs some re-focus in-between each change of tilt/swing, not more complicated than this, and it is still quick and precise.
The old grip tends to get worn out when used and over the years, by tightening it: the little blockers can however be changed and it "feels" and holds then as new. However the rail clamp 2 is much better and more convenient to use.
I don't encourage people to use Sinar view cameras for digital, please please, don't buy them, as they may start to go up in price and then no more bargains!
Edward
That's not nice!
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I don't encourage people to use Sinar view cameras for digital, please please, don't buy them, as they may start to go up in price and then no more bargains!
Edward
Don't worry I just agreed with a friend to take over his X-Act2. So no price-pressure from this side
I do know where to find you with questions about how to get to the desired focal plane quickly. Which is my main concern at this moment having minimal experience with view type cameras which needs to be compensated initially with lots of experience with trial & error combined with a relentless determination and desire to get great results.
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Don't worry I just agreed with a friend to take over his X-Act2. So no price-pressure from this side
I do know where to find you with questions about how to get to the desired focal plane quickly. Which is my main concern at this moment having minimal experience with view type cameras which needs to be compensated initially with lots of experience with trial & error combined with a relentless determination and desire to get great results.
That's alright, you don't know what you are missing!
I remember when I started to use a 5x4, I bought a book which taught you all the movements, with illustrations of what they did to the image.
Then it went on to talk about the Scheimpflug principle, which seemed like a miracle of optical science and sounds good when you want to impress the neophyte with something that you don't quite understand anyway.
I remember thinking, bloody hell, I will never learn all this, it's just too technical for my little brain.
But perseverance, my friend, gets you where you want to be in the end.
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so if I understand this right - with a sinar p & DSLR combination I get better precission but will still be limited in movements because of the mirror box and will have the lens crop factor.
- how "bad" is the live view of the Sinar 54LV compared to the nikon D3?
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That's alright, you don't know what you are missing!
I remember when I started to use a 5x4, I bought a book which taught you all the movements, with illustrations of what they did to the image.
Then it went on to talk about the Scheimpflug principle, which seemed like a miracle of optical science and sounds good when you want to impress the neophyte with something that you don't quite understand anyway.
I remember thinking, bloody hell, I will never learn all this, it's just too technical for my little brain.
But perseverance, my friend, gets you where you want to be in the end.
As far as I have been promised the X-Act2 should be sort of a miniP2 which suits me fine (at this stage anyway).
I know a lot of the theory and optical science (even when most of it is gathered in the last century), It is just that practice has taught me by now that it sometimes seems to defy theory leaving me totally numbed about what just happened . Anyway, I am really looking forward to a bunch of new 'learning experiences'.
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Dustback,
there is no other camera than the p/p2/p3 having asymmetrical axis allowing for a 2-point Scheimpflug setting.
You can get your plane of sharpness with ANY view camera, but it will be longer and less precise. The optical rules are quite clear and common to analog and digital: all can be explained, without wishing to seem pretending.
Best regards,
Thierry
As far as I have been promised the X-Act2 should be sort of a miniP2 which suits me fine (at this stage anyway).
I know a lot of the theory and optical science (even when most of it is gathered in the last century), It is just that practice has taught me by now that it sometimes seems to defy theory leaving me totally numbed about what just happened . Anyway, I am really looking forward to a bunch of new 'learning experiences'.
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Dustback,
there is no other camera than the p/p2/p3 having asymmetrical axis allowing for a 2-point Scheimpflug setting.
You can get your plane of sharpness with ANY view camera, but it will be longer and less precise. The optical rules are quite clear and common to analog and digital: all can be explained, without wishing to seem pretending.
Best regards,
Thierry
No problem. It is in most cases that I made a wrong assumption as it later turns out. It doesn't lessen me being stupidified at that moment in time though.
A 2-point Scheimpflug setting. Would you care to elaborate on that?
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with the p serie you can use the 2 tilt and swing axis to set a Scheimpflug sharpness plane with only 2 movements/settings on the camera:
1. Focus on the H axis (for a tilt) on a point being in your desired plane of sharpness: this is the lower dotted line on the ground-glass of a p/p2/p3.
2. Then tilt until your desired plane becomes sharp
That's it.
at the same time of tilting, your 1st point set in focus REMAINS sharp, simply because it lies ON your tilt axis (= no focus difference when moving around this axis)
For the swing movement it is the same, except that you focus on the right dotted line (V axis).
the combined tilt AND swing needs then 4 steps (sometimes even only 3, when the 1st focus point lies in the intersection of the H and V axis).
All you have to do after that, is to calculate your f-stop (depth-of-field scale) for the desired depth of field.
I hope this is understandable: it is much easier to demonstrate on the camera.
Best regards,
Thierry
A 2-point Scheimpflug setting. Would you care to elaborate on that?
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It sounds fairly straightforward, it also sounds like it solves a problem that I had with the few times I used movements, eg. having 1 point sharp, tilting, losing the sharpness and having to start all over again. This I found very frustrating and made it difficult to get to desired results with consistency.
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yes, that is exactly the point and where the p models make it so easy, fast and precise.
Having to re-focus each time, then re-tilt (or re-swing) is not very efficient and kind of guess-working, without methodical approach. And definitively not as precise.
Best regards,
Thierry
it also sounds like it solves a problem that I had with the few times I used movements, eg. having 1 point sharp, tilting, losing the sharpness and having to start all over again. This I found very frustrating and made it difficult to get to desired results with consistency.
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so if I understand this right - with a sinar p & DSLR combination I get better precission but will still be limited in movements because of the mirror box and will have the lens crop factor.
- how "bad" is the live view of the Sinar 54LV compared to the nikon D3?
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Dear Kendal,
Right, concerning plane of sharpness settings and focusing.
I am not sure about the mirror box issue, but yes, the crop factor is an issue to consider/live with.
I don't know the live view on a Nikon D3, but the one on the eMotion 54 LV works fine, as long as you don't have too much light (saturation of the sensor).
Best reggrads,
Thierry
so if I understand this right - with a sinar p & DSLR combination I get better precission but will still be limited in movements because of the mirror box and will have the lens crop factor.
- how "bad" is the live view of the Sinar 54LV compared to the nikon D3?
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You can use the camera's rear movements for stitching.
@morgan have you tested the P3 with a sliding adapter? or the P2 with the Cambo sliding for sinar? I'm looking at getting something soon and cant really test anything before buying.
I have a P2 (from the 70s ?) with a linhof sliding adapter and a phase H1 mount on my sinar/H1 54LV
I have not tried a p3 because they are way more expensive (being newer)
I would imagine that the P3 is too small to use the sliding adapter for stitching
to me the beauty of a 54 camera is I can make my 22mp back into 44mp for still life and have a 12.9 'look'
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How bad is the live view ?
Well it is tethered only for a start - so no use on location without an uber crew I cant afford
With copal lenses - rubbish workflow stopping up and down etc- updates in black and white about once a week tethered to my mac
Actually the zoom facility is really good but the experience is NOTHING like the nikon live view
It may be partly my mac which is not 'blinged to the max' that causes the slow view
To be honest I havent really played with it as I found just taking a shot and adjusting faster (that was actually with the H1 tethered not the sinar)
S
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How bad is the live view ?
Well it is tethered only for a start - so no use on location without an uber crew I cant afford
With copal lenses - rubbish workflow stopping up and down etc- updates in black and white about once a week tethered to my mac
Actually the zoom facility is really good but the experience is NOTHING like the nikon live view
It may be partly my mac which is not 'blinged to the max' that causes the slow view
To be honest I havent really played with it as I found just taking a shot and adjusting faster (that was actually with the H1 tethered not the sinar)
S
mhhhh .... sounds not very good
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mhhhh .... sounds not very good
hello ,
thsinar wrote :
"there is no other camera than the p/p2/p3 having asymmetrical axis allowing for a 2-point Scheimpflug setting"
What about the next camera :
- arca with orbix mechanism
- cambo master pc
- cambo ultima 4x5 ,
do they have the same asymmetrical axis ?
i think so
regards
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With the P3 can you attach standard copal digital lenses on a flat and or recessed board?
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hello ,
thsinar wrote :
"there is no other camera than the p/p2/p3 having asymmetrical axis allowing for a 2-point Scheimpflug setting"
What about the next camera :
- arca with orbix mechanism
- cambo master pc
- cambo ultima 4x5 ,
do they have the same asymmetrical axis ?
i think so
regards
Don't forget the Linhof 679 (who is'nt worst !)
PdF
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the ultima 45d and 23d work this way. I can set a focus point and tilt on axis.
The ultimas and the sinar p's are the best view cameras out there. I have not had a chance to use the linof but id say it ranks up there for sure.
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hello ,
What about the next camera :
- arca with orbix mechanism
- cambo master pc
- cambo ultima 4x5 ,
do they have the same asymmetrical axis ?
i think so
regards
Not at all the same as the asymmetrical axis on the p serie cameras. The p cameras have the axis (both, H AND V) built this way and they remain asymmetrical in any case.
- the orbix allows for the axis to be centered, so far I know.
- Cambo Master PC: the H axis can be set asymmetrically by shifting the image plane (like some other cameras), but how complicated this is, and so many steps more for setting the plane and then re-framing at the end of the tilting process and loosing the sharpness again (re-focus necessary). As for the V axis: it remains centered.
It takes 2 steps with a p/p2/p3 without having to change anything.
- Cambo Ultima 4x5: same as above, the axis are not built asymmetrical. You can adjust the rotational axis of the rear standard to be aligned with the chip/film plane.
All in all, more steps to come to a result which is achieved by only 2 single movements on the p/p2 and P3 cameras: focus, then tilt (or swing), ultimately calculate your depth-of-field.
I cannot imagine how it could be easier and faster.
Best regards,
Thierry
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@ Thierry Can you tell me if the P3 can take standard lens panels so copal shutter lenses can be used
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Dear Rick,
The Sinar p3 uses 100mm lens plates and we have the so-called CPL lenses to fit it (with Copal shutter).
Otherwise, almost all Copal lenses can be mounted on a 100mm p3 plate.
Best regards,
Thierry
@ Thierry Can you tell me if the P3 can take standard lens panels so copal shutter lenses can be used
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Thierry, The movable chip-plane adjustment is set to correct for horizontal and vertical. Maybe Im misunderstanding how this differs from the sinar p's.
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Yes, I understand this, but the axis are (mechanically) not built asymmetrical.
I would have to show you physically, on the camera, to explain the differences on the p cameras.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, The movable chip-plane adjustment is set to correct for horizontal and vertical. Maybe Im misunderstanding how this differs from the sinar p's.
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Quick snappshot of the Sinar-X, which is basically identical to the P2, but the geared movements don't click when you reach the "0" position.
In the front is the bellows and front standard from the F series. At the back is the Linhof sliding adaptor and an Aptus 65 with cables connecting to a Rollei shutter and Rollei ControlS. And in the background you can just see the NEC 30" Spectraview, a gem of a monitor.
Notice that I use the Sinar turned 90 degrees. This is something that doesn't occur to many people, and depends on what you are shooting, it's very convenient. The camera is fitted to a geared studio stand.
Edward
Edward,
I am also shooting with the Sinar X and Aptus 75 combo.
Just curious, what is the advantage of having your camera on its side?
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Edward,
I am also shooting with the Sinar X and Aptus 75 combo.
Just curious, what is the advantage of having your camera on its side?
Space
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I wanted to add to this thread about the differences between the cameras p, p2, p3, X
The Sinar p is silver with black except for a very limited edition wich were made all black for the 30th anniversary of the company. ( I think they made 300). The p2 is all black and the X is the same, but has a red thumb wheel on the front and rear standard for the horizontal displacements.
As for the differences;
The p has hard plastic knobs for making your geared swings and tilts, using the same knob for swing and tilt with a separate lever to switch between the two. On the p2 the knobs were replaced by rubberised grip knobs and the swing and tilt movements have a separate knob for each. Also the p2 shipped with a metering ground glass and the new Rail Clamp 2 which encloses the base rail completely. The Sinar X camera is different from the p2 in the following ways; the two main differences are the detents on the p2 at zero position are not on the X and also there are less gears in the horizontal displacement. What this means (and why the thumb wheel is red) is that when you want to make a horizontal displacement you need tomove the thumb wheel the opposite direction - on the p, p2 and p3 you want to go left - you turn the thumb wheel left. The p3 is a smaller version of the p2 with silver accents on the knobs. The frames are smaller size and have been optimized to be "centered". The p, p2 and X can be upgraded to a p3 due to the modular design of the Sinar system.
Hope this helps!
Dave.
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I was under the impression from something that Thierry posted in the past that the actual gearing of a a P3 was no different than the gearing of a P2.
Am I mistaken?
I wanted to add to this thread about the differences between the cameras p, p2, p3, X
The Sinar p is silver with black except for a very limited edition wich were made all black for the 30th anniversary of the company. ( I think they made 300). The p2 is all black and the X is the same, but has a red thumb wheel on the front and rear standard for the horizontal displacements.
As for the differences;
The p has hard plastic knobs for making your geared swings and tilts, using the same knob for swing and tilt with a separate lever to switch between the two. On the p2 the knobs were replaced by rubberised grip knobs and the swing and tilt movements have a separate knob for each. Also the p2 shipped with a metering ground glass and the new Rail Clamp 2 which encloses the base rail completely. The Sinar X camera is different from the p2 in the following ways; the two main differences are the detents on the p2 at zero position are not on the X and also there are less gears in the horizontal displacement. What this means (and why the thumb wheel is red) is that when you want to make a horizontal displacement you need tomove the thumb wheel the opposite direction - on the p, p2 and p3 you want to go left - you turn the thumb wheel left. The p3 is a smaller version of the p2 with silver accents on the knobs. The frames are smaller size and have been optimized to be "centered". The p, p2 and X can be upgraded to a p3 due to the modular design of the Sinar system.
Hope this helps!
Dave.
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I was under the impression from something that Thierry posted in the past that the actual gearing of a a P3 was no different than the gearing of a P2.
Am I mistaken?
Mark,
No you are not mistaken. The gearing is the same in the p2 and p3. The difference is in where the center lines up in relation to the geared "bearer". With the p2, you need to make a small horizontal and vertical shift to center the digital chip in the same position. This does not really effect anything however as the p3 and Sinar Sliding Adapter 100 positions the imaging plane in the swing and tilt axis and so it remains on that axis no matter where it is positioned..
Like Thierry posted before, it is much easier to see this visually than try to describe it!
Dave.