Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: claskin on November 09, 2008, 06:10:51 pm
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Sometime last week or perhaps the last 7-10 days, Canon announced to their retailers that the retail price of the 5D II will be increased in Canada by $300. The cameras have yet to land in Canada. My retailer had 200+ orders for the 5DII. They, as well as all other Canon dealers in Canada, were told to cancel all orders for the camera and re-order them at the increased price. Rather than take the high road and simply accept all orders at the originally advertised price (BTW the original price was not a tentative price; it was the MSRP), then set a cutoff date where new orders would be at the new price, Canon took this annoying and arrogant stand. Unfortunately I have too much invested in Canon glass and like others, will have to live with this. Morally I would prefer to unload it all and move to Nikon. Great product and to the best of my dealer's knowledge, Nikon has never done such a move. Of course I'm venting but I do have little choice. For those who think they might avoid this by buying in the US, apparently the same is or will happen there as well. Of course I would be delighted to be wrong, but I have been told otherwise. Lastly for those who believe that this is really the dealer's decision, I was shown the original Canon announcement to dealers.
You know after this rant, I really don't feel any better. However, when I'm king....:-)
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I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.
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I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.
Me neither. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it.
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I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.
I sure do understand it and agree with the sentiment.
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So, when a car mfr. starts producing a highly-sought new model, and the 'price' jumps way up...?
Or when Nike charge hundreds of dollars for -tennis shoes-...?
Or a million other things that define 'free market'...?
Maybe you can have the luminescent "O" pass a law that prices meet your expectations?!
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I understand the pain, but what do you expect?
The Yen just got 15-20% stronger compared to most other currencies, 40% stronger compared to the Euro.
Canon is still producing mostly in Japan, and considering the pretty low margin they must be making on the 5DII considering its retail price, it isn't very surprising that they decide to adjust the price upwards.
Nikon will probably also have to do the same with the D700 and D3 that are still produced in Japan, the other bodies being produced in Thailand will probably be less affected.
This story is a direct consequence of the sub-prime loan disaster and shows through a real world example how crazy investement practises can influence our daily lifes, even for those of us who have been utterly careful with our financial moves.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.
"My retailer had 200+ orders for the 5DII. They, as well as all other Canon dealers in Canada, were told to cancel all orders for the camera and re-order them at the increased price."
Maybe "rude" or "bait and switch" might be more accurate than "arrogant". Personally, I think all three apply.
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Nikon will probably also have to do the same with the D700 and D3 that are still produced in Japan, the other bodies being produced in Thailand will probably be less affected.
I'm not going to speculate about how these companies handle currency exchange rates, especially since they have many markets and many places they have to spend their money, but I believe they do some hedging and use sophisticated financial instruments to cover their butts. Nonetheless, I would be upset too if I ordered a Nikon camera from a dealer for the MSRP, paid them for it or put a deposit on it, and then was told the price had been raised -- a lot of people feel like they have made a commitment to buy the camera and often will lose their deposit if they back out of the deal because they decide they can buy the camera for less somewhere else or if the price had been reduced, that principle goes both ways inasmuch as the seller should likewise be obliged to honor the agreed upon transaction.
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The Yen just got 15-20% stronger compared to most other currencies, 40% stronger compared to the Euro.
Canon is still producing mostly in Japan, and considering the pretty low margin they must be making on the 5DII considering its retail price, it isn't very surprising that they decide to adjust the price upwards
Gimme the tissue, please!
But before, perhaps think of the past three years: the Canadian dollar was high months long, then higher months long, then even higher. It took Canon years and much complaints plus much direct imports from the US to adjust the prices of certain products with special refunds, which compensated only in part for the exchange rate difference.
Furthermore, it seesm to elude your (and others') attention, that this is a retroactive change.
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Furthermore, it seesm to elude your (and others') attention, that this is a retroactive change.
Not really, nobody has actually bought a camera yet if I am not mistaken? It is not as if they went knocking on buyers doors asking them for an additional 300 C$ for a camera they bought last week, right?
I am not familiar enough with the trade regulations of Canada to know whether this current move is legal or not. It appears for sure not to be an elegant decision and one that is not very customer centric.
I am not saying that I applaud Canon for doing this, just that I understand why they might want to take such a decision.
Any Canon customer un-happy about this is obviously free to lobby to try have them change their mind, contact a consumer representative association and try to make a case strong enough that media get interested, start a legal action or select a different equipment supplier.
As far as the last option goes, I am not sure that Nikon or Sony would act different. There is a level of economic turmoil beyond which some decisions are impossible to avoid and now appears to be such a time. I don't like it either.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Me neither. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it.
You just demonstrated what the first person mentioned - arrogance. This is funny and sad also - that people here have no clue about customer loyalty, and don't care to look into the possibility either.
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In the U.S., at least, if a retailer offers a consumer a camera at a given price, and the consumer accepts the offer as evidenced by paying a deposit (especially a non-refundable deposit), a contract is formed. The retailer breaches the contract and is subject to a lawsuit if that retailer fails to deliver the camera at the agreed-upon price within the agreed-upon timeframe.
The same would hold true as between a camera manufacturer and the retailer, subject to the terms of the manufacturer's "dealer contract." Somewhere that contract probably says "prices subject to change without notice" or something to that effect. Details not spelled out in a commercial contract of that nature may be found in the Uniform Commercial Code ("UCC") in the U.S.
(This is not legal advice, rather merely a comment made during an educational exchange.)
Bruce
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I've seen too the numbers complaining about the price hike, but to be honest, I don't really see how people couldn't expect this to happen.
Canon are being made out to be the villain by a lot of people, but there has to be a sense of reality check in regards to the market the way it is.
First of all, Canon, may have listed a RRP, but there's no reason Canon CAN'T increase the price, and chances are there'll be a note of such conditions on their website, in their release documentation etc. I can't think of one company in the world that doesn't at least cover this concept in anything they releas a price for.
Secondly I believe that retailers have also played a part in the 'suggestion' of cancelling orders and relisting them (Bait and switch). Not likely... Canon would have received orders from their customers (the retailers), and have absolutely no connection with the customer of the retailers. Canons only honor is to their direct customer. They may SUGGEST all they want, but it's not an expressed opinion of the company... Unprofessional for sure, but not official... And in this case, I really doubt Canon would have suggested so. Any order received by the retailer from their customer is purely at their own risk, and it lies solely with them.
Check also, half the retail places (maybe not some of the small ones though, as it's often fly under radar territory, or never been an issue in the past) will have a condition of preorder with something along the lines of the price may change, and doesn't guarentee you the said item in the next shipment, only when available for your shipment.
Don't get me wrong, it's crappy, and you feel ripped... but realistically, with the market as slack as it is right now, I'd be counting blessings that it isn't worse.
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The price hike in Canada is to a new CDN$3099.99. That, by current currency exchange rate (1.18 @Nov. 10th) is US$2626.
So I don't understand what this fuss is all about ?
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The pre-order price in the UK for the 5D2 is £2300. Approximately 4250 Canadian Dollars.
Forgive me if I don't fall weeping at sobbing to the ground at your terrible plight.
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You just demonstrated what the first person mentioned - arrogance. This is funny and sad also - that people here have no clue about customer loyalty, and don't care to look into the possibility either.
I'm sure Canon did, and decided that the negative impact on customer loyalty is lower than the positive impact of the price increase. It's not arrogance, it's business.
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I'm sure Canon did, and decided that the negative impact on customer loyalty is lower than the positive impact of the price increase. It's not arrogance, it's business.
No, that is wrong. Canon's decision regarding the price is business, but their decision not to get off of their butts and have some PR person offer a plausible explanation and apology is in fact arrogance.
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Are we missing the boat here, the issue is that if they quoted a price and orders were taken that price needs to be honoured. Anyone ordering after the price change or who did not make a down payment would be subject to the new price. That is the issue. Canon should be honouring the pre-ordered camera price with a down payment.
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Are we missing the boat here, the issue is that if they quoted a price and orders were taken that price needs to be honoured. Anyone ordering after the price change or who did not make a down payment would be subject to the new price. That is the issue. Canon should be honouring the pre-ordered camera price with a down payment.
No, we're not... Pre-orders aren't taken by Canon... Pre-orders are taken by retailers... It's not a blame game on Canon, it's on your retailer.
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I started this thread knowing that it would be a controversial issue. There are more important issues but let me clarify my point and the use of the word, "arrogant". Firstly, I agree that this is business and based upon economic pressures plus currency exchange rates, prices will go up and down. I understand completely. My point is, that when the Canadian dollar was flying high, Canon did not lower their prices in line with the currency exchange. They enjoyed a windfall profit simply based on the exchange rates. Again, their decision and if you don't want to buy their product, don't. I agree. With the Canadian dollar falling, and the yen flying, of course they need to adjust the foreign currency pricing. Many orders were placed with the original pricing. I submit that they should honour the orders placed by dealers then place a cutoff date when the new pricing will start. I see this as simply good business practice. This is exactly how my organization practices (we are somewhat less of a business entity than Canon, Inc.)
I find it arrogant (definition of my use to follow) that Canon told their Canadian dealer network that they were canceling their orders and the dealers must replace the orders in line with the new pricing.
(arrogant: I am so good that I can do whatever I wish to do and people will simply have to live with it).
To the responders of this thread:
1) individuals do not order directly from Canon; dealers do. Canon canceled the orders from their dealer network. The point remains that Canon chose the "low road" in their business decision. So pre-orders are not the dealers fault per se, orders to the vendor by their "customers" i.e. the dealers, is business as usual.
2) I am sorry that Canon pricing is higher in other countries. My point had nothing to do with the price in Canada; it had to do with how the increase was implemented.
3) "...so don't buy [the camera]...". As I said, my choice is to sell my Canon glass at a great loss or buy the camera. I guess I could show Canon that I will dump all of their gear, eat a loss of thousands and now buy Nikon. Do you think that will really show them? Like I said originally, I will not cut off my nose to spite my face. I will have to eat this increase and live with it. Again, it is the implementation of the price increase.
So my friends, I started this thread to make a point. I expected nothing to come of it and I will buy the 5DII. I really have little choice. If Canon priced it originally at $3099, I still would have ordered it. If they would have then retroactively canceled the orders to accommodate a price increase, I still would object to the way they do business. One last point, faced with a rise in the yen several years ago, Nikon honoured their pre-orders "to date" then all orders from a specific date forward were subject to a price increase. That is what I call the high road and the way I do and will continue to do business.
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I'm not going to speculate about how these companies handle currency exchange rates, especially since they have many markets and many places they have to spend their money, but I believe they do some hedging and use sophisticated financial instruments to cover their butts. Nonetheless, I would be upset too if I ordered a Nikon camera from a dealer for the MSRP, paid them for it or put a deposit on it, and then was told the price had been raised -- a lot of people feel like they have made a commitment to buy the camera and often will lose their deposit if they back out of the deal because they decide they can buy the camera for less somewhere else or if the price had been reduced, that principle goes both ways inasmuch as the seller should likewise be obliged to honor the agreed upon transaction.
My experience in the past has to do with automobiles, but similar circumstances. Usually when a new model is announced and someone puts down a deposit they get the model at the price which was announced first. If there is an increase it is passed on to later buyers. First buyers in many cases are those who pre-purchase a model which will be very popular and are in essence, speculators. They buy early to make a profit or to be the "first on the block" to have something new and put one over on their neighbors or afficionados of certain brands. Yes, I'm with the OP on this one. Shame on Canon.
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Look, as far as I understand, after accepting the order, Canon ( or the retailer ) should be legally bound to taking the agreed contract price for the product. I mean... I fully understand the changes in world commerce, and companies having to pay higher interest rates to keep up their financial health with banks loans and changes in production cost simply for currency exchange rate changes and so on. They COULD have done a "from now on, due to the international crisis, we'll be forced to increase our product pricing", but you'd have to know the full price the moment you order. After you ordered, I feel they should be obliged to honor their word and advertisement. Say, if when your ordered, your order receipt says "$500", and they charge "$600", I would go for a lawsuit to have them honor the price I bound myself to pay, when ordering. Unless you signed a contract saying the prices are subject to changes and so on, and you agreed with that.
I think it's not worth the hassle to debate with your retailer, but it's worth taking your receipt with the price, and the receipt for the charged price, and enter a class lawsuit with all photographers who feel this isn't fair, to change price after the purchase is done. Maybe you're up for a refund and you'll be teaching Canon a lesson.
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but there are no orders, there are only pre-orders, which is essentially no more than a glorified wait-list: the store promises that if you are number 13 on that list, the 13th camera will be offered to you. If you buy, then there is a purchase, but if you don't agree with the price, you are not forced to buy.
Look, as far as I understand, after accepting the order, Canon ( or the retailer ) should be legally bound to taking the agreed contract price for the product. I mean... I fully understand the changes in world commerce, and companies having to pay higher interest rates to keep up their financial health with banks loans and changes in production cost simply for currency exchange rate changes and so on. They COULD have done a "from now on, due to the international crisis, we'll be forced to increase our product pricing", but you'd have to know the full price the moment you order. After you ordered, I feel they should be obliged to honor their word and advertisement. Say, if when your ordered, your order receipt says "$500", and they charge "$600", I would go for a lawsuit to have them honor the price I bound myself to pay, when ordering. Unless you signed a contract saying the prices are subject to changes and so on, and you agreed with that.
I think it's not worth the hassle to debate with your retailer, but it's worth taking your receipt with the price, and the receipt for the charged price, and enter a class lawsuit with all photographers who feel this isn't fair, to change price after the purchase is done. Maybe you're up for a refund and you'll be teaching Canon a lesson.
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but there are no orders, there are only pre-orders, which is essentially no more than a glorified wait-list: the store promises that if you are number 13 on that list, the 13th camera will be offered to you. If you buy, then there is a purchase, but if you don't agree with the price, you are not forced to buy.
Exactly, and I would not do business where a pre-order required a full purchase-price deposit.
The shop I contract for usually requires a couple hundred dollars to put you in line, which is refundable if the purchase is not implemented. When the equipment shows up, the customer is contacted and told they have a limited time to come collect it before losing their turn.
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After a week of consideration I have decided to let my wallet talk and cancel my order, it was not a decision I took lightly. Two factors moved me in the direction neither was sufficient by it self but combined made me change my mind. The first one that really started all this was the Remembrance Day, I read the history of how POWs were used by Japanese companies as slave labour and that they were never compensated. The companies refused to admit what they had done. I have no proof that Canons predecessor was involved but it was a common practice. There are very few survivors left and records are very sketchy and in Japanese. The Army turned the POWs over to the companies with the agreement that the companies would pay the prisoners, they never did pay them and they were used as slave labour. The second factor was that Canon has made some recent blunders MKIII focusing and the debate about the 50D IQ, do I want to gable $3K on a camera that may not deliver. I know that one order is not going to make a difference to Canon but it will make a difference to me and that is what is important.
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So my friends, I started this thread to make a point. I expected nothing to come of it and I will buy the 5DII. I really have little choice.
I disagree. You have the choice of not purchasing the camera, or at least delaying the purchase.
As for the discussion thread, everybody seems to be making their points based on guesswork and whispering game information.
From the information I've been able to find, Canon Canada had not committed to the price of CDN 2799 for the body, it was a projected suggested retail price. However, several retailers may have allowed pre-orders without pricing caveats. Apparently, Vistek is one such retailer.
There's a blog for people who feel snubbed here, and I suggest that those of you who do feel that Canon and/or your retailer have done something wrong, should read the information provided here:
http://stoppriceincrease.blogspot.com/ (http://stoppriceincrease.blogspot.com/)
(Disclaimer: I do not know the author of this blog, nor can I attest to the veracity of the claims therein.)
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...I read the history of how POWs were used by Japanese companies as slave labour and that they were never compensated. The companies refused to admit what they had done. I have no proof that Canons predecessor was involved but it was a common practice.
While your sentiments are commendable, they would apply to all companies -- not just Japanese companies. For instance, in principle this issue applies to German companies too; and since much of the wealth of the world was (and still is) acquired by slave labor, and theft of land and resources from indigenous peoples -- this means there are not many good guys, or easy ways to avoid the bad guys.
The second factor was that Canon has made some recent blunders MKIII focusing and the debate about the 50D IQ, do I want to gamble $3K on a camera that may not deliver. I know that one order is not going to make a difference to Canon but it will make a difference to me and that is what is important.
Perhaps $300 more puts you over your personal risk/benefit threshold, but I do not see how anything else changed in regards to the gamble you were ready to bet on before the price was adjusted.
I do think this is more a retailer issue than a manufacturer issue. If you made a deposit then you made it to the retailer, so it is the retailer that is bound to honor the transaction if that deposit was non-refundable, if it was refundable then I would just let it go (instead of starting a blog as someone did).
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I disagree. You have the choice of not purchasing the camera, or at least delaying the purchase.
As for the discussion thread, everybody seems to be making their points based on guesswork and whispering game information.
From the information I've been able to find, Canon Canada had not committed to the price of CDN 2799 for the body, it was a projected suggested retail price. However, several retailers may have allowed pre-orders without pricing caveats. Apparently, Vistek is one such retailer.
There's a blog for people who feel snubbed here, and I suggest that those of you who do feel that Canon and/or your retailer have done something wrong, should read the information provided here:
http://stoppriceincrease.blogspot.com/ (http://stoppriceincrease.blogspot.com/)
(Disclaimer: I do not know the author of this blog, nor can I attest to the veracity of the claims therein.)
1) I have little choice means: I am heavily committed to Canon glass and have sold my 1DsII. I am not willing to take the loss by selling the lenses and switching to Nikon, for example.
2) Point of clarification: The Canon Canada price was definitely NOT a projected price. It really was the selling price. The two major Canadian retailers, Vistek and Henry's, independently verified that statement. Moreover, I was shown the Canon announcement of the 5DII including the price that was sent to its dealers. It stated that the MSRP IS $2799 for the body only. If this was a projected price, then there would have been no reason for Canon to instruct its dealer network to cancel all orders and re-order at the new price.
Thank you for your thoughts and the link to the blog. I will now put this argument to rest.
Carl
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I don't know who financed the Japanese before or during the War, but the Germans got a lot of support from U.S. businesspeople like Ford and Rockefeller. The posts I see here saying the manufacturers aren't arrogant is absurd. Those mfr's are dealing in big money, and they care as much for you as they do for the flies buzzing around their offices.
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It stated that the MSRP IS $2799 for the body only.
Just one minor nit-pick:
MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
It's not a guaranteed price, it's not even the price point that most retailers sell their gear at.
If you somehow manage to get a binding court sentence through Canada's Supreme Court that says otherwise, it will have some interesting ramifications regarding pricing policy and statements.
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The difference between Germany and Japan is that Germany admitted wrong and paid a huge war debt, Japan did not it, was only recently that the Japanese government apologized for the war and that created problems internally in Japan. Japanese companies are in denial publicly regarding slave labour and have not admitted that they were wrong. Instead of complain I did something, I expressed an opinion and followed through with action. The intent of my statement was not to convince other people to do the same it was a personal choice I made regarding a company and the way it operates. I do not agree with them and they are not getting my money.
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Edit: comment removed.
Hmm.... about 2 seconds from posting a joke to regretting it. I think that's a record.
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Japanese companies are in denial publicly regarding slave labour and have not admitted that they were wrong.
You have completely gone off the rails here. Do I need to argue now that everyone is in denial (which they are) regarding injustices they have and continue to profit from? You even admitted you do not know specifically what Canon's role was in this, nor if that was any better or worse than Nikon's role or anybody else's role. I get exercised about Japan's role in WWII too, you can't seriously argue that "The Army turned the POWs over to the companies with the agreement that the companies would pay the prisoners..", that army was a brutal dictatorship that massacred its own people almost as mercilessly as it massacred others and that army didn't give a damn about POWs -- for instance, many American GI's were murdered and starved to death in the Philippines by the Japanese army (not by Japanese companies). My grandfather was killed by a kamikaze pilot in the 1944, but that doesn't stop me from thinking highly of the products made by the same company that made the airplane that killed my grandfather. China was the biggest victim of the Japanese, but I frankly despise the government that rules that country now much more than the current Japanese government; which of these two governments is causing more problems in Africa today? Yes, concern for justice in an unjust world is commendable; but injustices from WWII have nothing to do with how the price of a camera is determined or how much someone should have to sell it for.
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Edit: comment removed.
Hmm.... about 2 seconds from posting a joke to regretting it. I think that's a record.
Hmm - one of those "Are you sure you want to xyz?" ... "Yes" ... "Oh crap NOOOOooo" moments?
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Hmm - one of those "Are you sure you want to xyz?" ... "Yes" ... "Oh crap NOOOOooo" moments?
Since I work in a big corp. and attend meetings where we wring our hands trying to decide how to explain ....... to certain customers, then of course we do nothing, I know what people are experiencing. The only solution is to just yell louder. No joke.
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Just one minor nit-pick:
MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
It's not a guaranteed price, it's not even the price point that most retailers sell their gear at.
If you somehow manage to get a binding court sentence through Canada's Supreme Court that says otherwise, it will have some interesting ramifications regarding pricing policy and statements.
Point made. I have no intention in pursuing this legally. My pockets are not that deep! :-)
Regards,
Carl