Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: bellimages on October 15, 2008, 09:55:58 am

Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: bellimages on October 15, 2008, 09:55:58 am
First off, I have to say that the roll-out of the new MacBooks and MacBookPros were pretty lack-luster for me -- very disappointing. Other than the "product design" advancements (eg: new trackpad, one-piece aluminum shell, LED powered screens), there wasn't much to impress me. I hoped for a new generation of processors (they kept the Intel Core Duo processor).

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, Apple realizes that there is a lot more money to be made in the consumer market, than the pro line. With that said, Apple has always taken pride in offering professional products for us graphic artists, videographers, and photographers. But I'm feeling left out of their strategic plan. The lack of a major update in the MacPro line illustrates my frustration. And these new Cinema Displays (with glossy screens) make me wonder where they are going. Are they going to supply us (professionals) with products that meet our need?

Hopefully this will all shake out in the next year or so. But, I feel a LOT of frustration, since I've been waiting for over 2 years to update my studio computer/display. I use three MacPros at work ... so I get by. But using my old G4 at home is painful -- very very slow by today's standards. Even though I need a new computer and display, I will hold out longer. AArggggggg

In the meantime, does anyone on here have a contact at Apple? I think that it would be good to pass along our feelings and comments/suggestions. I love Apple, but personally feel that it would be useful to know where they are going in the professional line.

Jan Bell

Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on October 15, 2008, 10:31:14 am
Hi Jan,

I completely agree with you.

I'm in Brazil, and here it's harder to keep up with top notch pro gear, because taxes and the currency difference makes it harder to get the high end stuff. You eventually do, but only after some years in the work. For a starter pro photographer, the white macbook was a great acquisition. I always felt the FW800 port to be missing, but I use the FW400 a lot. Now, they took out the FW400, which is understandable, but didn't replace by a FW800, which was expected. The low end macbook got more expensive ( am talking about the new one ) with graphic board improvements, LED displays, but not much than that. Without any FW port, how am I supposed to use my FW card reader?

Anyway, it means I would possibly upgrade to the MacBook Pro. But it's not really much Pro. For a Pro notebook, I would expect at least 2 FW800 ports ( one on a MFB for instance, another on an external HD, for example), improvements on CPU, and so on.  I hope Apple will listen up, and provide a good, pro line notebook followup, updating the line to add a FW800 port on the MacBook... or another one on the MacBook Pro. And CPU upgrades. At least that. You can't do everything wireless, it's just too slow on a real shooting studio enviroment where you have to move Gb and Gb of photos fast.

I think the same kind of debate might be going on at professional music forums, and other pro forums around the world.

I hope the followup, or the 17" mbp upgrade will solve that... but apple should rethink what's consumer and what's pro in their line. And who are the professionals they're targeting.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: bellimages on October 15, 2008, 10:47:46 am
Good point about the Firewire ports. Replacing your card reader is a relatively small investment. But, replacing my six 160GB firewire hard drives is another matter (they are FW400). Hopefully there will be an adapter available at some point. Otherwise they are useless. Arrrrrgggggggggg
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: michael on October 15, 2008, 11:29:34 am
Just for the sake of clarity Firewire 800 is backwards compatible with Firewire 400. All you need is an inexpensive cable with a 400 connector on one end and an 800 connector on the other.

Michael

Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on October 15, 2008, 03:11:01 pm
I'm lucky on that point, because both my external HD and card reader are dualFW ( 400 and 800 interfaces ). The problem is zero FW ports on the macbook and only one on the pro. Why not upgrade from 400 to 800 simply? Why just remove the 400? My camcorder, for example, which I don't use for work fortunatly, but I'd not like to have to replace just because apple doesn't like FW400, is FW only.

The place I am now, is waiting to see if Apple will actually do something about it ( I would expect better CPU as well, it's not only the FW issue ). If not, it's comparing in performance and all to the windows counterparts. I would be much happier if Apple did allow an unlocked MacOS you could install on any notebook, instead of using MacOS as a way to lock you into a hardware that isn't so cutting edge anymore. On the features page you have "Inside the new MacBook Pro is the latest Intel Core 2 Duo processor running at speeds up to 2.8GHz", but the actual models are 2.4 and 2.53, being the 2.8 optional, but you can't buy it from the apple site. Also, no options for matte screens as in previous models, which people tend to prefer to work on image processing.

Apple Insider is already mongering rumors about the 17inch MBP. Let's see. If it also sports the 2.4Ghz CPU, instead of a 2.8, I'll be disapointed. Dual FW800 and a few other neat things, would be very welcome, instead of making it just a bigger version of the 15" one, for people with extra money to show off the apple logo, instead of a desktop replacement pro machine. Fingers crossed here.

There's always a bunch of disappointments when there are upgrades, but I'm usually on the cheerful part. I think the new notes have great features, but I think with a bit more effort, apple could have gone all the way and made for really high performance notebooks. My hopes are still that all this will be unleashed on the 17" model, and the 17" model won't be discontinued.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: GregW on October 15, 2008, 03:26:23 pm
It's a shame the FW port has gone from the MB but I think we should be more positive.

There are many FW devices out there, but increasingly fewer new FW devices are released. Most new consumer video cameras don't support it. Sony one of the original members of the FW group has dropped it. Vista doesn't support FW 800. Pro video cameras like the Red One support Compact Flash cards and have eSATA as well as FW interfaces.  

Medium Format Digital Camera Back users do have a problem because many rely on FW's ability to deliver power when their cameras are tethered. This is an issue, all-be-it for a relatively small number of people.

FW is a legacy interface. In my 20 plus years of Mac ownership I've learnt, sometimes to my cost that Apple don't do legacy. When USB 3 comes along it will be quite hard to justify FW at all.

With all of that in mind, I think it's great Apple still offer a laptop with FW.

I was a glossy skeptic, that was until I was forced to replace my beloved 12" PB G4 with a MBA. It's not my main machine but the display calibrates well, has more dynamic range than a matte display which makes it great for editing the odd image on the road with Adobe's Lightroom.

People should really try a glossy LED before commenting. You CANT extrapolate from the iMac or Macbook glossy displays.

One final point about glossy displays. According to Jobs and Apples's internal market research they sell very well in to the professional market. The reason.
Clients like them.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on October 15, 2008, 03:29:54 pm
Quote from: michael
Just for the sake of clarity Firewire 800 is backwards compatible with Firewire 400. All you need is an inexpensive cable with a 400 connector on one end and an 800 connector on the other.

Michael
Yup, the Sandisk FW Extreme Card reader is like that. It even comes with both cables.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on October 15, 2008, 03:36:38 pm
Quote from: GregW
It's a shame the FW port has gone from the MB but I think we should be more positive.

There are many FW devices out there, but increasingly fewer new FW devices are released. Most new consumer video cameras don't support it. Sony one of the original members of the FW group has dropped it. Vista doesn't support FW 800. Pro video cameras like the Red One support Compact Flash cards and have eSATA as well as FW interfaces.  

Medium Format Digital Camera Back users do have a problem because many rely on FW's ability to deliver power when their cameras are tethered. This is an issue, all-be-it for a relatively small number of people.

Agreed, but maybe not right now. Still lots of FW gear running around in studios and workplaces. At least for the "pro" lineup, you could forget about the FW400... but give another FW800, or an eSATA interface instead. I'd be jumping happy to have an eSATA interface on the mbp.

Quote from: GregW
People should really try a glossy LED before commenting. You CANT extrapolate from the iMac or Macbook glossy displays.

One final point about glossy displays. According to Jobs and Apples's internal market research they sell very well in to the professional market. The reason.
Clients like them.

I'm not complaining about the LED displays, I'm actually quite happy Apple did this move, because it's far superior choice. Glossy Vs Matte, glossy is sometimes hard depending on where you are having to work at. I'm also very happy Apple turned the macbooks into "green" notebooks.

Anyway, I'm on the list to see what the new 17" models will show. Apple Insider said they were just not yet announced due to internal problems and bugs, but will be soon. Fingers crossed here.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: bellimages on October 15, 2008, 05:28:28 pm
We all have to keep in mind that Firewire devices can be daisy chained (meaning you connect device 1 to the computer; then device 2 to 1, and 3 to 2, and 4 to 3 ... and so on). Therefore, only one port is necessary on a computer.

One "cosmetic" comment on the new MacBooks and MacBookPros -- I really dislike the new dark keys. They take me back to the original TiBook (the first Apple Laptop -- the Titanium Powerbook). The silver keys on the most recent Apple laptops are sooooo elegant.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: GregW on October 15, 2008, 05:40:15 pm
Quote from: bellimages
I really dislike the new dark keys. They take me back to the original TiBook (the first Apple Laptop -- the Titanium Powerbook). The silver keys on the most recent Apple laptops are sooooo elegant.

Surely, you are forgetting the Portable:

   

I think it's fair to say things have improved since the good old days  
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on October 17, 2008, 08:37:39 am
Correction: you CAN order the 2.8Ghz 15" models. It will cost US$300,00 extra, and the way to do is a bit tricky. You have to select the 2.53Ghz model on the Apple Store, THEN select the 2.8Ghz CPU option.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: sergio on October 17, 2008, 04:45:02 pm
Though I like the OS, I find the Mac hardware to be of dubious quality. I can attest my old Dell notebook was way sturdier than my macbook. Problem is Windows is crap. I wonder if there is another platform that actually works and can take PS and LR for the PCs. I don't need fancy graphics, buttons or anything else. Just stability, speed, robustness and security.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 17, 2008, 06:26:47 pm
Quote from: bellimages
As someone mentioned in an earlier post, Apple realizes that there is a lot more money to be made in the consumer market, than the pro line. With that said, Apple has always taken pride in offering professional products for us graphic artists, videographers, and photographers. But I'm feeling left out of their strategic plan. The lack of a major update in the MacPro line illustrates my frustration. And these new Cinema Displays (with glossy screens) make me wonder where they are going. Are they going to supply us (professionals) with products that meet our need?
Profit is Apple's main, sorry only concern. Pros are not profitable enough it seems as they are fussy and are not willing to put up with crap if it affects their work and they all want different things. Now Apple make more money form music/phones..and have dropped computer from their name they have become just another electronics firm and the people who kept their business alive are simply not important anymore. Apple is intent on streamlining its production line with as little variation as possible so as to minimise costs as much as possible. My feeling with Apple gear as a whole is that it seems cheap in design terms, due to compromises made to cut costs and subsequent lack of choice, yet their stuff still costs a fortune.
I've now been looking at PC laptops again and the variety of choice is great, you can basically get exactly what you need, rather than what Apple deign to let you have.
PC Laptops vary from 9-20" in size, they come with a choice of screens surfaces, a variety of resolutions, two hard drives, BluRay, Wacom pads, quad core chips, 16G of memory, a delete key, back button, decent sized keyboards even on small laptops, a screen you can actually tilt back far enough to use on lap with knees up, or when standing at desk...etc.
The only thing the PCs lack is Apple's new trackpad, where Apple goes from the clunky pads of old to stunningly good.

But Apple make nothing that comes even close to this machine, 13" Pro laptop (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644570897) which is very close to what I need. So looks like I'll be buying a PC laptop now.

The problem with alienating the core base is that once they lose the pro lustre, consumer sales will also fall. People like to buy cheap versions of expensive/professional brands, but  if pros lose faith in Apple, then they will lose a lot of their attraction to the wannabees.

And like Sergio, I also question their quality. My new MacPro is remarkbly unreliable, my 3 year old 13" Vaio laptop simply works. Looks like I'll be sticking a faster HD in it and keep it going a bit longer. It can run CS4 OK, so not too bad for a old boy.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: juicy on October 17, 2008, 06:47:36 pm
Product bashing is too easy. Still I have to say that I have somewhat lost my faith when it comes to Apple. All but one of my friends with Apple laptops have had problems and all kinds of reliability issues. Support has been poor. One of my friends fought over a year with Apple  to get her macbook changed after several repairs failed to get the machine working. Then she bought another one it failed too. After 2 repair attempts she got a new machine which has been perfect so far but this just goes to show there are batches of machines that should never have left the factory. She lost months of usage time in this process.
Jobs' job is to make money but the methods are bad from consumers perspective. Cutting costs by using crappy components will result in inferior products that no professional can use. Pros need to turn elsewhere.

J
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 18, 2008, 03:48:39 am
Hi,

My experience with FW was a positive one and with USB mostly negative. I really think that portables should have some decent interface for hooking up hard disks, so I'm really with Jessica on the need of FW800 or eSATA. I'm still using Tiger and USB on my iMac/Tiger combo is slow while FW is fast (10 MByte/s vs. 60 MByte/s).

I absolutely agree with Jessica. I also feel bad about the attitude that now that we have a new technology (like USB 3.0) old technology (like FW) is not needed. My experience is that new technology is seldom reliable especially if a certain Redmond based company has been involved in it's development or specification. Users have investment in technology that works, methods that are proven. We also need to keep in mind that some businesses are more sensitive to costs than others. Not every one on this planet is living in a high income/high expenditure situation. I guess that for some people earning their money with hard work on a smaller scale investing in a new computer can be bad enough but also upgrading storage is additional cost.

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: JessicaLuchesi
Agreed, but maybe not right now. Still lots of FW gear running around in studios and workplaces. At least for the "pro" lineup, you could forget about the FW400... but give another FW800, or an eSATA interface instead. I'd be jumping happy to have an eSATA interface on the mbp.



I'm not complaining about the LED displays, I'm actually quite happy Apple did this move, because it's far superior choice. Glossy Vs Matte, glossy is sometimes hard depending on where you are having to work at. I'm also very happy Apple turned the macbooks into "green" notebooks.

Anyway, I'm on the list to see what the new 17" models will show. Apple Insider said they were just not yet announced due to internal problems and bugs, but will be soon. Fingers crossed here.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: Greg Whitaker on October 18, 2008, 11:15:10 am
So can anyone tell me now why one should choose Mac over Windows machines for professional photography? Vista is 64 bit, so is CS4, Mac is not. New Macbooks no longer offer FW 400, and only glossy screens, not to mention that if you want to run mac, you have one choice of manufacturer for the machine you run it on, not my idea of a great structure for the professional. I have been digital for 2 years, earning my living with  location people photography in the advertising and editorial markets for 20 years. I shoot with both Canon 1DS2 M3 and PHase one P45+ (processed as 16bit) and never have a problem with file size, color compatability, workflow or processing speed. My custom laptop usually outperforms the Macs that my freelance digi-techs use.  The only drawback to windows that I see is the otherwise computer illiterate professional art directors, art buyers and designers with whom I work who are still worried that somehow they won't be able to use my files because they were "windows generated". About once or twice a year I will hear from a designer or AD that the images I provided were off in color, only to find that they are not viewing the images on a calibrated monitor, once the images go into a production machine they say "Oh, nevermind". I guess that I don't really think I need to conform to a once necessary standard due to outdated conventional wisdom. Am i missing something? The cool looking cases or clever TV advertising? Guess I never worried enough about being cool or trendy. I am about due to upgrade some hardware though, so I'd honestly like to know, I've asked several of the folks I work with on a regular basis, and stil no decent answer except the preference to the Mac OS and perceptions that I've mentioned above.
W
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: juicy on October 18, 2008, 12:29:46 pm
Quote from: Greg Whitaker
So can anyone tell me now why one should choose Mac over Windows machines for professional photography? Vista is 64 bit, so is CS4, Mac is not. New Macbooks no longer offer FW 400, and only glossy screens, not to mention that if you want to run mac, you have one choice of manufacturer for the machine you run it on, not my idea of a great structure for the professional. I have been digital for 2 years, earning my living with  location people photography in the advertising and editorial markets for 20 years. I shoot with both Canon 1DS2 M3 and PHase one P45+ (processed as 16bit) and never have a problem with file size, color compatability, workflow or processing speed. My custom laptop usually outperforms the Macs that my freelance digi-techs use.  The only drawback to windows that I see is the otherwise computer illiterate professional art directors, art buyers and designers with whom I work who are still worried that somehow they won't be able to use my files because they were "windows generated". About once or twice a year I will hear from a designer or AD that the images I provided were off in color, only to find that they are not viewing the images on a calibrated monitor, once the images go into a production machine they say "Oh, nevermind". I guess that I don't really think I need to conform to a once necessary standard due to outdated conventional wisdom. Am i missing something? The cool looking cases or clever TV advertising? Guess I never worried enough about being cool or trendy. I am about due to upgrade some hardware though, so I'd honestly like to know, I've asked several of the folks I work with on a regular basis, and stil no decent answer except the preference to the Mac OS and perceptions that I've mentioned above.
W


Hi,
Check out this thread: speed (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28581)
J
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 18, 2008, 06:39:23 pm
Quote from: Greg Whitaker
So can anyone tell me now why one should choose Mac over Windows machines for professional photography?
There is no reason. Unless you need to use Software that is Mac only. I use both and contrary to marketing BS, the Mac certainly does not just work and due to the sheer uselessnes of Finder, I find OSX a much clumsier and slower OS.  The other surprising thing, I find it less consistent in behaviour and also awful to use with multiple monitors. I do my Mac File mangement using my PCs over the network, much easier and quicker.
PC version of CS4 is not only faster but has a better UI too. Sure Macs may be pretty, but that doesn't make up for at times, truely crappy design and looks are far more important than usability in the Apple world.
And if you want a laptop, Apple's choice is laughably awful, compared what is available to run Windows software.


Historically, some of the first programmes to be used by people in the creative industry were Mac only, hence their popularity in this area. Not because they were any better for 'photography'.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 18, 2008, 09:59:57 pm
Well,

The Mac works. That's a good reason. Let's just connect two displays to a Mac, color calibration works on both. Simple as that. On the PC it's a mess. As far as I understand it may work and there are better and worse solutions.

I have used Windows for many years and still use it at work, I'm a software engineer by profession with about 28 years of experience of computer using different operating systems, so I'm not computer illiterate I guess.

I have no experience with either Vista or Mac OS-X.5, I'm still on XP and Tiger. At home, for my photographic work I switched to Mac and never looked back. I would guess is that is what we see in the business, people are OS agnostic but they try Mac OS X and send the PC to pasture.

There are benefits to having a single vendor. Apple can select components that work together and support them from the operating system. On a PC you can switch everything, which of course gives freedom, but the price is that you need to install drivers for all hardware you add. There is much less guarantee on the PC that things work well together, that's the price of freedom.

To be more specific I can give a simple example:

I bought the ColorMunki from X-rite, run the installation script and that was that. I plugged in an external monitor into my iMac and now the calibration dialog pops up on both. I need to physically move the Color Munki between the screens, but that's it. To install the Color Munki on the XP I needed to download new version of the code, install another version of .Net. I think installation took about two hours. Now I have a problem with the PC it's used for multimedia so it is connected to an LCD TV and a projector. They need different calibrations.

What needs to be done is that you would download "Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet for Windows XP", and install it. In order of installing it you need to install another version of .Net and maybe other programs. So you spend another couple of hours in front of the computer. To add insult to injury Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet for Windows XP is a piece of crap, at least if intended as a gamut loader. The idea is that you generate a profile and change name on it, then with Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet for Windows XP you can install, make it default and apply it. Problem is that it's messy, undocumented and you are never sure what you get.

I finished up calibrating the projector, and adjusting the LCD TV using it's controls to look decent.

Now, why do I have a PC as a multimedia machine? There are some good reasons. I can add different cards, multiple hard disks and it's much cheaper. I could use Linux, which was my favorite OS until the need of color calibration forced med to switch to Windows. Setting it up was a painful experience, though. Installing Windows was not really easy, than I needed to upgrade BIOS, even if I only had the computer for a couple of days. Video was boggling down CPU and was hacky. After some research I found out that my Graphics Card vendor (ATI) had new drivers downloaded another 30-40 MByte from the internet and finally got it working. Most applications and especially video still ignore color management and installed color profiles, so getting colors right is still not easy.

Now I feel it's perfectly OK for any people to use any OS of their choice, but my personal experience with Windows is bad. May be that Vista is a great improvement but I won't any longer touch any product from Microsoft voluntarily any more.

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: Greg Whitaker
So can anyone tell me now why one should choose Mac over Windows machines for professional photography? Vista is 64 bit, so is CS4, Mac is not. New Macbooks no longer offer FW 400, and only glossy screens, not to mention that if you want to run mac, you have one choice of manufacturer for the machine you run it on, not my idea of a great structure for the professional. I have been digital for 2 years, earning my living with  location people photography in the advertising and editorial markets for 20 years. I shoot with both Canon 1DS2 M3 and PHase one P45+ (processed as 16bit) and never have a problem with file size, color compatability, workflow or processing speed. My custom laptop usually outperforms the Macs that my freelance digi-techs use.  The only drawback to windows that I see is the otherwise computer illiterate professional art directors, art buyers and designers with whom I work who are still worried that somehow they won't be able to use my files because they were "windows generated". About once or twice a year I will hear from a designer or AD that the images I provided were off in color, only to find that they are not viewing the images on a calibrated monitor, once the images go into a production machine they say "Oh, nevermind". I guess that I don't really think I need to conform to a once necessary standard due to outdated conventional wisdom. Am i missing something? The cool looking cases or clever TV advertising? Guess I never worried enough about being cool or trendy. I am about due to upgrade some hardware though, so I'd honestly like to know, I've asked several of the folks I work with on a regular basis, and stil no decent answer except the preference to the Mac OS and perceptions that I've mentioned above.
W
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: The View on October 18, 2008, 11:06:38 pm
Quote from: jjj
The problem with alienating the core base is that once they lose the pro lustre, consumer sales will also fall. People like to buy cheap versions of expensive/professional brands, but  if pros lose faith in Apple, then they will lose a lot of their attraction to the wannabees.

And like Sergio, I also question their quality. My new MacPro is remarkbly unreliable, my 3 year old 13" Vaio laptop simply works. Looks like I'll be sticking a faster HD in it and keep it going a bit longer. It can run CS4 OK, so not too bad for a old boy.

I have not heard of the MacPro being unreliable. Maybe you should give yours to a check-up.

I also love the OS and its reliability and I cannot imagine working on a PC (I had one, thank you, never again).

Generally, Mac computers are on the top end from what is on the market. They work reliably, and you don't have to constantly install codes and security software and drivers, etc.

And the customer service is unbeatable. If I have a problem with my Mac and it's still within warranty, I just drop it off, and there is no haggling about what is to fix.

The fact that Apple has had mass market success does not mean that its high end machines are less high end now.

It is actually more astonishing that mass market success can be had with such well designed goods like the iPod or the iPhone and the MacBook.

Compared to that, I don't like the aesthetics (or the lack of it) of windows equipment (including the software interfaces).

Creative people like that Apple combination of reliability and esthetics and good performance and ease of use, and they are willing to pay premium for that.

And I don't need to choose between half a dozen keyboards and screen surfaces. And if I don't like the glossy 24" display, I go buy an Eizo or a NEC. Which also work seamlessly on a Mac.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: The View on October 18, 2008, 11:17:48 pm
Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Well,

There are benefits to having a single vendor. Apple can select components that work together and support them from the operating system. On a PC you can switch everything, which of course gives freedom, but the price is that you need to install drivers for all hardware you add. There is much less guarantee on the PC that things work well together, that's the price of freedom.

To be more specific I can give a simple example:

I bought the ColorMunki from X-rite, run the installation script and that was that. I plugged in an external monitor into my iMac and now the calibration dialog pops up on both. I need to physically move the Color Munki between the screens, but that's it. To install the Color Munki on the XP I needed to download new version of the code, install another version of .Net. I think installation took about two hours. Now I have a problem with the PC it's used for multimedia so it is connected to an LCD TV and a projector. They need different calibrations.

What needs to be done is that you would download "Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet for Windows XP", and install it. In order of installing it you need to install another version of .Net and maybe other programs. So you spend another couple of hours in front of the computer. To add insult to injury Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet for Windows XP is a piece of crap, at least if intended as a gamut loader. The idea is that you generate a profile and change name on it, then with Microsoft Color Control Panel Applet for Windows XP you can install, make it default and apply it. Problem is that it's messy, undocumented and you are never sure what you get.


Best regards
Erik

Big point for the Mac's reliability.

Those horror stories from components not working together are usually PC stories.

Even though CS4 users will have a speed advantage for the next 1 1/2 to 2 years for extremely large files, that's not a reason for me to say goodbye to reliability, good customer service, and beautiful machines.

I also prefer the Mac aesthetics of what you see on the screen to what I see on a PC screen.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jani on October 19, 2008, 05:05:08 am
Quote from: The View
Generally, Mac computers are on the top end from what is on the market. They work reliably, and you don't have to constantly install codes and security software and drivers, etc.
That's because Apple are such slobs that they're really bad and slow at releasing security and bug fixes.

They're way behind the top of the class in time to fix real problems.

Of course, regular users don't know that, because they don't pay attention to vulnerability reports, or check the date of the report compared to the date of the fix.

Microsoft used to be worst in class, but have improved a bit. Unfortunately for them, they have fundamental security problems in their products which will take ages to fix properly, so even after a couple of years with half-decent speed from vulnerability report to fix, they still have a tremendous amount of work to do.

Oh, this is turning into a rant about corporate software manufacturers arrogance, so I think I'll just stop right here!
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: bellimages on October 20, 2008, 05:38:30 pm
Well said ... and I'm totally with you. Apple's design is world class -- both aesthetically and in terms of durability. I am a designer, so good design is important to me. In the case of a computer, hardware design and the interface design are both critical. Neither of these categories being met very well on the PC side. At Apple, they work, rework if necessary, and continue to work until they get it right. Steve (Jobs) isn't content until things are as perfect as humanly possible.

I just yearn to have a clue what their strategic plan is .... so that I can plan accordingly. Big surprises aren't important to me (what you see at their product release events).


Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2008, 07:04:10 pm
Quote from: The View
I have not heard of the MacPro being unreliable. Maybe you should give yours to a check-up.
It been in several time. And one major problem I had was caused by the idiots with the genius t-shirt screwing up my computer, putting memory in wrong slots. I problem I sorted.  Not to mention when the business chap emailed me to askd how my Mac was doing and after being taken aback when I listed all the issues including his incompetent staff, he suggested I use Vista!!! Another Genius said he never used a new OS version until at least revision/bug fix/service pack 4 or 5. Now if the guys fixing the machines don't trust the software.....

Quote
I also love the OS and its reliability and I cannot imagine working on a PC (I had one, thank you, never again).
Leopard is about to have it's 6th batch of bug fixes. I know people who stay with Tiger as leopard is so crap.

Quote
Generally, Mac computers are on the top end from what is on the market. They work reliably, and you don't have to constantly install codes and security software and drivers, etc.
Complete BS. Most apple users I know have had problems and the lack of drivers is due to the lack of kit that can be used. The eSATA PCI card for my etternal drives has never worked and the manufacturer doesn't give a crap as it ignores emails. So I have 4TBs of drives that now cost half what I paid for them doing nothing. Go here for an article by a big Apple fan who has reliability issues Charles Arthur - The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/24/it.apple). And the Mac forums are full of problems and issues with various bits of kit.


Quote
And the customer service is unbeatable. If I have a problem with my Mac and it's still within warranty, I just drop it off, and there is no haggling about what is to fix.
So they don't just work then if you've had problems. Besides, you do the same thing with a PC, yet often the venor collects machine from you and does so for more than one year. Also I did have to haggle about what to fix as the muppets didn't know what they were doing. nd I have to book a time to drop machine in as they are so busy fixing issues.
If Apple stuff was really that good why do they have shorter guarantees than many PC sellers?


Quote
Compared to that, I don't like the aesthetics (or the lack of it) of windows equipment (including the software interfaces).
How do you explain Finder then? Worst fucking programme I've ever had to use. Simplistic, fiddly, plain awkward and very under powered. I also had a nice Aluminium case when Apple still had it's ghastly plastic boxes.

Quote
Creative people like that Apple combination of reliability and esthetics and good performance and ease of use, and they are willing to pay premium for that.
No it's just that Apple computers ran the first creative software programmes and for a while had the entire creative market. Not any more.


Quote
And I don't need to choose between half a dozen keyboards and screen surfaces. And if I don't like the glossy 24" display, I go buy an Eizo or a NEC. Which also work seamlessly on a Mac.
As they do on a PC. I want a wireles keybord for my Mac, the only Apple version is dreadful. How is a lack of options a good thing. The lack of options is a cost cutting exercise, not a customer service benefit, Apple strikes me as being cheap in its attitude.  How about if Canon now only offered two cameras, one that was OKish and one that was pants, but as you had 10 Canon lenses you couldn't actually afford to change to say Nikon.
Oh and my 'calibrated' dual monitors on my Mac, don't just match each other. And if I want to completely crash my Mac, I just unplug my phone. Other times I simply breathe in and then out and it falls over. I just discovered that I cannot move folders in Finder without giving my password as permissions are screwed up, again! At least Finder hasn't lost any hard drives for last couple of days and the Boot Camp Assistant  app suddenly works after completely refusing for ages, as apparently my hardware wasn't good enough.
Most unreliable piece of computer crap I've ever bought.
</rant>
This is a screenshot of redraw issues I had before 10.5/4 bug fix sorted the graphics problems
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3247/2535868573_bccfb5b143.jpg)
Finder still screws up text when in Thumbnail mode.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2008, 07:07:50 pm
Quote from: The View
Big point for the Mac's reliability.

Those horror stories from components not working together are usually PC stories.
Lots of PC are home made, so no comparison really. Would you compare a kit car to an Audi? And my Mac is he most unreliable computer yet, including home builds.

Quote
Even though CS4 users will have a speed advantage for the next 1 1/2 to 2 years for extremely large files, that's not a reason for me to say goodbye to reliability, good customer service, and beautiful machines.
If only.

Quote
I also prefer the Mac aesthetics of what you see on the screen to what I see on a PC screen.
Style over substance. Function comes a poor second to form with Apple kit.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 20, 2008, 07:17:18 pm
Quote from: bellimages
Well said ... and I'm totally with you. Apple's design is world class -- both aesthetically and in terms of durability. I am a designer, so good design is important to me. In the case of a computer, hardware design and the interface design are both critical. Neither of these categories being met very well on the PC side. At Apple, they work, rework if necessary, and continue to work until they get it right. Steve (Jobs) isn't content until things are as perfect as humanly possible.
So how come their ergonomics are so often dreadful, Finder so useless and their dual monitor implementation so pathetic and clumsy?
Apple stuff is designed to suit one person and one person only.  The rest of us have to put up with what Jobs dictates. Or not. I've been looking at PC laptops since Tuesday, what an amazing choice, bigger, smaller, more cores, more memory, higher res screens, better storage, more features, a choice of screens finishes, a choice of more functional keyboards, a choice of connectors.....choice to suit my various needs. Now that is customer service, giving the customer what they want/need.
PCs are anything but perfect, but at least I get to choose something that suits my needs better.

Now my rant is over!!
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: GregW on October 21, 2008, 11:20:52 am
Quote from: jjj
Now Apple make more money form music/phones..and have dropped computer from their name they have become just another electronics firm and the people who kept their business alive are simply not important anymore.

I'm afraid this is wholly incorrect and misleading.

Net sales for the Macintosh unit (Laptops and desktops) are about the same as the iPod, iPhone and iTunes businesses combined. Apple's 34% gross margin is derived from the Mac unit, which makes significantly more profit in absolute terms.

Source: Apple Q308 Form 10-Q, and media conference (http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/10/107/107357/items/301504/AAPL_10Q_Q3FY08.pdf)

Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: budjames on October 21, 2008, 08:59:22 pm
I love the PC guys stating that you can get exactly what you need. I agree, however, you also get Windows.

I think that the idea of a streamlined product line is makes good sense. Good for quality control, good for the distributors and best of all, good for us users.

In our house, I have a MBP Pro 15" (which I'm trading in for a new MBP 15"), a MacPro 8-core and a MacBook for my daughter. When my 11 yr old son outgrows his PC games, I'll get him a Mac too. My tech support issues have gone from something wrong each week, to only a few incidents in almost 2 years. I no longer have to reinstall Windows OS because something got hit by a bug. I don't have to buy flakey antivirus software and pay an annual subscription to keep 4 computers up to date.

As most former PC, now Mac users know, it's the cost of total ownership and not the price of the computer that matters. For those of you who cannot afford a new MBP to get firewire port, I suggest that you buy a used MBP and then you will get two, a FW400 and a FW800. You will still be getting a more usable computer than any PC-laptop. Or, save a little longer and "splurge" on a new MBP. The initial pain in the pocketbook is temporary and a small price to pay for a few years of a very cool, productive and trouble-free computer use.

I am now stepping off of the soapbox. Have a great night all.

Cheers,
Bud James
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jani on October 22, 2008, 04:38:53 am
Quote from: budjames
I love the PC guys stating that you can get exactly what you need. I agree, however, you also get Windows.
Hack Attack : Install Leopard on your PC in 3 easy steps! (http://dailyapps.net/2007/10/hack-attack-install-leopard-on-your-pc-in-3-easy-steps/)

Enjoy.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 22, 2008, 11:09:24 am
Quote from: budjames
I love the PC guys stating that you can get exactly what you need. I agree, however, you also get Windows.
Which is better in many ways than OSX. As OSX is better than Windows in other ways.
I use both and always miss aspects of the other which ever OS I use. But if I had to choose one, PC would win due to the near useless and very clumsy Finder which slows down my file mangement so much, I now use my PC to move files around on the Mac and the dreadful multimonitor behaviour.
What I find most odd about OSX is how clumsy and inconsistent it is.

Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 22, 2008, 11:33:35 pm
Quote from: GregW
I'm afraid this is wholly incorrect and misleading....
Au Contraire.

Quote
....Net sales for the Macintosh unit (Laptops and desktops) are about the same as the iPod, iPhone and iTunes businesses combined. Apple's 34% gross margin is derived from the Mac unit, which makes significantly more profit in absolute terms.

Source: Apple Q308 Form 10-Q, and media conference (http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/10/107/107357/items/301504/AAPL_10Q_Q3FY08.pdf)
Some more up to date info - "The iPhone Accounted for 39% of Apple Revenue in Q4 2008" So unless iTunes and the iPod only account for 10% of revenue - very unlikely, the Mac unit will be less than the those 3 items combined.
It seems that Laptops + desktops made up $3.6 Billion and the iPod and Music made up $2.5Billion of Apple's revenue.  So as I said computing has become a minority part of their business. And why they dropped the name computer a while back to reflect their changing priorities. The iPhone business has grown by an astonishing amount. Not bad for a flawed first effort!
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: giles on October 23, 2008, 05:24:45 pm
Quote
I also love the OS and its reliability and I cannot imagine working on a PC (I had one, thank you, never again).
My Vista machine is more stable than my OS X machine.  Naturally, this is anecdotal evidence only, but I've had to use the big red switch twice on the OS X machine in the last 24 hours.  In a week or two I'll reinstall it and see if I can narrow down the problem to some particular software component, but of course if it's a hardware problem I'm hosed, see later.

Quote
Generally, Mac computers are on the top end from what is on the market. They work reliably, and you don't have to constantly install codes and security software and drivers, etc.
Jani answered that one.

Quote
And the customer service is unbeatable. If I have a problem with my Mac and it's still within warranty, I just drop it off, and there is no haggling about what is to fix.
Not in Australia, you don't.  You drop it off (if you can get them to accept that there's a fault, which last time took me a month of arguing with the state service manager of their largest (oursourced) service centre) and wait a couple of weeks after which it might be fixed.  (Problem?  The well known dark stripes on the first LED MacBook Pro, which Apple have never admitted.  Yes, my screen was replaced.  No, the new one isn't completely free of the problem either.) And AppleCare doesn't offer next day on site service or anything, you know, like, competitive, with the market.  If I used an OS X machine professionally, I'd have already switched to Windows.

Quote
The fact that Apple has had mass market success does not mean that its high end machines are less high end now.
I saw a comment in the trade press saying that Apple loves consumers but doesn't like customers.  Witness their extremely grudging admission that their machines too are affected by the bad Nvidia chips, and an extension (of one whole year) of warranty for the machines affected.  That may be enough for me to consider buying another Apple machine, but I'll need to see non-gloss screens, have my own OS X installations stable before doing so, and locate an alternate service centre first.

Quote
It is actually more astonishing that mass market success can be had with such well designed goods like the iPod or the iPhone and the MacBook.
Taking over the mp3 player market with the iPod was very well done.  I think the jury's out on the iPhone, although it's certainly popular.  The MacBook's just another notebook PC; I've used better and worse.  They're all made in the same factories, to more or less the same price points, none of them are especially reliable, and if your vendor doesn't care to support what they sell, it's very tempting to move on to the next vendor.

Apple's only assets in the PC market are "cool" factor (bzzt), OS X (nicer than Windows, yes), and that Adobe still have Mac and PC versions of some of their products and make it really painful to switch platforms.  If I were Adobe I'd be extracting a large payment from Apple for not making all Adobe's product licenses cross platform as Lightroom is.

Giles (also fearing he's ranting, and wishes Apple would listen)
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 23, 2008, 07:29:26 pm
Quote from: giles
Apple's only assets in the PC market are "cool" factor (bzzt), OS X (nicer than Windows, yes), and that Adobe still have Mac and PC versions of some of their products and make it really painful to switch platforms.  If I were Adobe I'd be extracting a large payment from Apple for not making all Adobe's product licenses cross platform as Lightroom is.
Much as I've criticised Apple above, this is an Adobe decision, nothing to do with Apple.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: bellimages on October 23, 2008, 08:10:02 pm
Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

My experience with FW was a positive one and with USB mostly negative. I really think that portables should have some decent interface for hooking up hard disks, so I'm really with Jessica on the need of FW800 or eSATA. I'm still using Tiger and USB on my iMac/Tiger combo is slow while FW is fast (10 MByte/s vs. 60 MByte/s).

I absolutely agree with Jessica. I also feel bad about the attitude that now that we have a new technology (like USB 3.0) old technology (like FW) is not needed. My experience is that new technology is seldom reliable especially if a certain Redmond based company has been involved in it's development or specification. Users have investment in technology that works, methods that are proven. We also need to keep in mind that some businesses are more sensitive to costs than others. Not every one on this planet is living in a high income/high expenditure situation. I guess that for some people earning their money with hard work on a smaller scale investing in a new computer can be bad enough but also upgrading storage is additional cost.

Best regards
Erik



We all have to realize that at some point, all technology will be left behind. I'm sure that there are a handful of guys wishing that the SCSI ports were still on their computer (Jaz drive days).
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: giles on October 23, 2008, 09:27:23 pm
Quote from: jjj
Much as I've criticised Apple above, this is an Adobe decision, nothing to do with Apple.
Sure -- I didn't intend to suggest otherwise.  But with Apple's switch of strategy (Carbon and Cocoa) delaying Adobe's 64 bit products on OS X and Adobe's licensing policies helping tie customers unhappy about that delay to Apple, if I were Adobe, I'd be looking at what was in it for me.

I'd like Adobe to wake up and smell the coffee and be PC/Mac agnostic with their licensing, but I'm not holding my breath, like I'm not holding my breath for Adobe to adjust their international pricing.

I'll shut up now.

Giles
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: GregW on October 24, 2008, 07:07:51 am
Quote from: jjj
Au Contraire.

Some more up to date info - "The iPhone Accounted for 39% of Apple Revenue in Q4 2008" So unless iTunes and the iPod only account for 10% of revenue - very unlikely, the Mac unit will be less than the those 3 items combined.
It seems that Laptops + desktops made up $3.6 Billion and the iPod and Music made up $2.5Billion of Apple's revenue.  So as I said computing has become a minority part of their business. And why they dropped the name computer a while back to reflect their changing priorities. The iPhone business has grown by an astonishing amount. Not bad for a flawed first effort!

You missed my fundamental point. Revenue growth is important but revenue does not equal profit at Apple. iPhone, iPod and music revenues are high due to volume but profit is relatively low - compared to mac - because of the pricing constraints in those markets. Even if you look at the non GAAP numbers - those including  deferred subscription income - the profit level per unit will still be relatively low.

The fiscal Q4 numbers were not available when I made my post. That said I'd still prefer to look at 3 quarters rather than just 1. In this case it's particularly important as this was a distorted quarter. iPhone 3G has been ramped up in a big way but with increased competition Apple have made it clear that it's unlikely these initial numbers will represent the sustained trend.  This is particularly likely as iPhone is now in all of the major markets and the useful life of the phone is about 24 months. Additionaly Apple saw a significant slow down in Mac sales as people defered their purchases, knowing new models were on the way. Apple also lost sales due to a change in education budget changes which they expect to get back.

Yes iPhone and iPod are very important to Apple, they grow the top line but Macs are still the most important generator of profit and cash at Apple. Unless there is a massive drop in sales this will continue to be the case for some time.

The broader point here is simple. Has the iPod and iPhone diverted Apples attention away from the Mac. Yes it probably has, Leopard is a good example of this. I still believe that the outcome would have been much the same, i.e. dropping FW and switching to glossy screens.  Apple may have had a history of interacting with the digital professional but that changed in 1992 when Quark went windows. It's a very long time since Apple designed hardware specifically for the digital imaging professional.  I've said this on a few occasions. Apple were never as good as people remember and Microsoft are not as bad as people think.

The reality is a simple one. For the professional, a camera system, computer or display is a tool and not a religion. I seriously doubt the lack of FW port on a MB or a glossy screen will impact the result. A glossy screen doesn't a bad photographer or a bad image.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 25, 2008, 12:16:10 am
Quote from: GregW
I've said this on a few occasions. Apple were never as good as people remember and Microsoft are not as bad as people think.
Gosh such heresy, you will burn in the hell that are the MacRumours forums for that sensible comment!  

Quote
The reality is a simple one. For the professional, a camera system, computer or display is a tool and not a religion. I seriously doubt the lack of FW port on a MB or a glossy screen will impact the result. A glossy screen doesn't a bad photographer or a bad image.
Just because someone gets paid for taking pictures does not always make them more rational about their tools. Most people use the same tool as they always have, simply as they are used to it and as change may also incur a cost. I've used both OSes, I've changed camera brands, I've changed software in favour of better software on numerous occasions but that is unusual behaviour, not the norm.
 But the current designs will affect whether or not some people will buy a new Mac laptop. The current laptop choice is insultingly awful and I'm looking at Hackinstosh/EFi solutions at present to get one that suits my needs, if I want to continue using OSX whilst mobile. Otherwise I'll simply use Windows.

I do understand the difference betewteen revenue and profit and Computers usually have low profit margins.
As for the iPhone revenue - a lot of it comes from the phone companies using it, very profitable and apparently the manufacturing costs make the device itself more way profitable than the computer stuff. The iPhone is runing at 58% manufacturing profit and even though Apple have the highest margins in the computer industry, the Macs will come nowhere near that figure.
Apple is now a consumer business and their original core business [the professional creative industry] is becoming increasingly marginalised. And if they can make more money that way, i.e. going down the consumer path, it'll only increase further. Apple products just seem more and more like they were designed primarily to cut manufacturing costs, not to benefit end consumer. Much cheaper to have one type of screen, one size mouse, one keyboard design, than to give consumer's choice.
Apple's rennaisance over last few years is down to appealing to the non-professionals and from a business point of view, it's a very good one. For them.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on October 25, 2008, 05:36:51 pm
One quick question... if you could install MacOS X on any computer, like you would with Windows, would you seriously stick to Apple Hardware? Honestly, I agree about OSX, I wouldn't swap it for windows either, and I have been a windows user for years, I simply think things are easier on MacOS and I waste less time working against the OS... but would you keep buying apple hardware, if you could install OS X on any off-the shelve notebook with a Core2 Duo processor?
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: The View on October 25, 2008, 09:51:59 pm
Quote from: JessicaLuchesi
One quick question... if you could install MacOS X on any computer, like you would with Windows, would you seriously stick to Apple Hardware? Honestly, I agree about OSX, I wouldn't swap it for windows either, and I have been a windows user for years, I simply think things are easier on MacOS and I waste less time working against the OS... but would you keep buying apple hardware, if you could install OS X on any off-the shelve notebook with a Core2 Duo processor?

Macs used to be much, much more expensive (which is why first computer was a PC), but since Mac went Intel, that has considerably narrowed.

Sure, you see those offers for a Windows computer with a big hard drive and a lot of Ram for under 1000$, but what kind of video card does it have? How's the front side bus? Motherboard? There are some really cheap and not so great components out there for Windows computers, and while it looks good for a purchase (less expense) it looks worse for owning. A friend of mine bought one of those special offer PCs with good numbers on the paper, and the thing was so bad always had to exchange some parts, set up all software again, look for new drivers (including the one that finally drove him to going berserk, so he tossed the thing).

You get what you pay for, and if you want a good computer, you have to spend a good deal of money for both Macs AND PCs.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 25, 2008, 10:04:29 pm
Quote from: The View
Sure, you see those offers for a Windows computer with a big hard drive and a lot of Ram for under 1000$, but what kind of video card does it have? How's the front side bus? Motherboard? There are some really cheap and not so great components out there for Windows computers, and while it looks good for a purchase (less expense) it looks worse for owning. A friend of mine bought one of those special offer PCs with good numbers on the paper, and the thing was so bad always had to exchange some parts, set up all software again, look for new drivers (including the one that finally drove him to going berserk, so he tossed the thing).
Apple has crappy out of date video cards in their machines and in the laptops buggy ones!
Of course you can buy a crap PC, as anyone can put one together, but lots of decent stuff out there too.

Quote
You get what you pay for, and if you want a good computer, you have to spend a good deal of money for both Macs AND PCs.
As Apple have by far the highest profit margin in the industry, you will always get a really good PC for less and probably with a 3yr on site warrantee too. An area where Apple show how little faith they have in their kit.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jani on October 27, 2008, 09:52:53 am
Quote from: JessicaLuchesi
One quick question... if you could install MacOS X on any computer, like you would with Windows, would you seriously stick to Apple Hardware? Honestly, I agree about OSX, I wouldn't swap it for windows either, and I have been a windows user for years, I simply think things are easier on MacOS and I waste less time working against the OS... but would you keep buying apple hardware, if you could install OS X on any off-the shelve notebook with a Core2 Duo processor?
Your question remains a hypothetical one, because Apple currently doesn't develop MacOS X for other than a very limited set of hardware configurations, and they don't appear to have any intentions of competing with Microsoft.

But as I noted earlier in this discussion, you can install MacOS X on other hardware than that provided you from Apple itself.

If you like the OS but don't care much for the rest of the stuff Apple puts there, you can use Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)) (briefly and inaccurately: the open source base for MacOS X).

What Apple does offer, is a reasonably well-configured and tested package of components. Sure, individual computers fail, but you avoid some of the problems of building your own hardware. (Not that this is unique to Apple...)
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: dkeyes on October 27, 2008, 02:33:20 pm
A better question might be: What computer company (electronics company) is focusing on professional artist/photographers?

Apple hasn't been for many years and I can't think of another company right off.
JJJ posted a link to a Sony laptop, has Sony ever focused on the high end any more than Apple? No. They've got tvs, cameras, games and even robots.

I think Apple needs a stripped down version of their product that you can order a la carte. I'm talking more than ram, a few video cards and hard drives. Different screens (matt, glossy), ports, drives (Blue ray), multi battery attachments, off-road/rugged versions. It's also telling that they have yet to update the MacPro desktop. It better be worth the wait. All that said, I've had fewer issues with my mac than I ever had with my PC. Also, the price difference between mac and pc, if you compare Apples to "apples", is very close. Much closer than it's ever been.

Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on October 27, 2008, 02:59:18 pm
Well, yes, my question is merely hypothetical. A "what if" kind of question.

I have been a Linux user, and have tried Darwin. MacOS is a very good, stable and well rounded software, and it's the main reason I stick to apple hardware, because it's the only one ( so far ) capable of running MacOS. But for example, IBM has release a notebook with the professional photographer in mind a while ago. Wouldn't it be great to just install MacOS into the best hardware you can find?

For me, for now, my choice will be to get the (EXTREMELY overpriced) 15" MacBook Pro, wih the 2.8Ghz processor. That's as close as "desktop replacement" as it goes for apple. I guess apple knows that, if they just open up their OS, it's not really the matter of competing against Microsoft, because they already do. But the simple fact that I guess their hardware sales would go down the drain.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jani on October 27, 2008, 07:29:13 pm
Quote from: JessicaLuchesi
For me, for now, my choice will be to get the (EXTREMELY overpriced) 15" MacBook Pro, wih the 2.8Ghz processor. That's as close as "desktop replacement" as it goes for apple. I guess apple knows that, if they just open up their OS, it's not really the matter of competing against Microsoft, because they already do. But the simple fact that I guess their hardware sales would go down the drain.
There's another simple fact, too:

Supporting a wide range of hardware options is far, far more expensive than just supporting a very limited set.

So not only do they risk losing hardware sales; they're also virtually guaranteed to have a very steep increase in expenses in their support apparatus.

I can see why they would hesitate in betting their financial edge on a risky venture.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 27, 2008, 08:08:32 pm
Quote from: dkeyes
A better question might be: What computer company (electronics company) is focusing on professional artist/photographers?
Apple hasn't been for many years and I can't think of another company right off.
Oddly enough Microsoft is!  
MS Pro Photo (http://www.microsoft.com/ProPhoto/)

Quote
JJJ posted a link to a Sony laptop, has Sony ever focused on the high end any more than Apple? No. They've got tvs, cameras, games and even robots.
Not sure how you equate the fact that Sony make a wide range of kit to not producing high end kit. They are a very,very big company.
Sony have been making higher end kit than Apple as well as lower end kit. Their broadcast equipment is very often seen on movie sets as well used to produce TV. So I'd say Sony is several notches above Apple in that respect when it comes to making serious gear. Not to mention they have a wide range of kit that suits many different user's needs, which to my mind is way more professionally biased than Apple's one size fits all. Bigger and more expensive does not equal professional.

Apple simply do not make kit that suits my professional needs for a laptop [small/light/powerful] as they now simply seem to be going after the consumer market, whilst cutting their costs at the expense of usability and yet increasing prices at same time.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: dkeyes on October 28, 2008, 12:59:18 pm
Quote from: jjj
Oddly enough Microsoft is!  
MS Pro Photo (http://www.microsoft.com/ProPhoto/)

Not sure how you equate the fact that Sony make a wide range of kit to not producing high end kit. They are a very,very big company.
Sony have been making higher end kit than Apple as well as lower end kit. Their broadcast equipment is very often seen on movie sets as well used to produce TV. So I'd say Sony is several notches above Apple in that respect when it comes to making serious gear. Not to mention they have a wide range of kit that suits many different user's needs, which to my mind is way more professionally biased than Apple's one size fits all. Bigger and more expensive does not equal professional.

Apple simply do not make kit that suits my professional needs for a laptop [small/light/powerful] as they now simply seem to be going after the consumer market, whilst cutting their costs at the expense of usability and yet increasing prices at same time.

My point was that Sony's focus (as a brand) was never the pro photog/designer or even the computer user, they were and still are in the entertainment/music business. Their core products being video, TV, games, music. Yes, they make hi-end versions of most of this stuff, but they have the resources to do that being so large. Like most companies, they've diversified to get as many users as possible, business users, etc. Apple is about design and experience which used to start at the hi-end/power user, including designers, scientists, etc. This trickled down to their consumer versions as you've mentioned. Now Apple is focused on entertainment and everyday household users which is too bad, I like Apple's design and interface better than most PC's. Unfortunately, everyone is becoming too diversified to please specific users, even Microsoft has Zune and Xbox/Games. Here is another entertainment device from Microsoft, their new Surface computer.  http://www.microsoft.com/surface/index.html (http://www.microsoft.com/surface/index.html)

I do think Sony is the closest thing to Apple when it comes to design, at least their TV's and VAIO laptops.
Title: Apple's Strategic plan for professional artists and photographers
Post by: jjj on October 28, 2008, 03:30:12 pm
Quote from: dkeyes
My point was that Sony's focus (as a brand) was never the pro photog/designer or even the computer user, they were and still are in the entertainment/music business.
Which does not stop them producing very good professional kit. So not sure what your point is!  Canon don't just make cameras you know, does that make their kit less professiona/good/focused as cameras are just a small part of their business?
Plus you seem to forget that Sony are also attempting to end the Canon/Nikon dominance of the camera market and seem to be doing a pretty good job of things so far.

 
Quote
Apple is about design and experience which used to start at the hi-end/power user, including designers, scientists, etc.
It simply happened that the original creative software was first designed for the Mac, as at the time PCs were way inferior to Macs. Hence the Mac became known as the creatives platform, as for a few short years you couldn't get some software for PCs and people kept using them once they'd started. And for many years not many people outside of the creativce industries used them.

Quote
Unfortunately, everyone is becoming too diversified to please specific users, even Microsoft has Zune and Xbox/Games.
Actually, Diversification is the only way to please specific users.


Quote
Here is another entertainment device from Microsoft, their new Surface computer.  http://www.microsoft.com/surface/index.html (http://www.microsoft.com/surface/index.html)
Just like Apple's new trackpad or the Wacom Cintiq is an entertainment device!! I think you've missed the point. It's an interface, not an entertainment device. So it may be brilliant for both work and play