Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on October 03, 2008, 01:31:59 am
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If that case of equipment got stolen from your hotel room tomorrow, and the wife let you use the insurance money for something other than a new kitchen, what would you buy ?
Edmund
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AFi system
I now use a 645AFD/III for location work and a RZ67ProII for studio work, the AFi combines those two quality wise.
You get better image quality and WLFs from the RZ and a large part of the portibility of the 645AFD/III.
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you should add the second hand camera options. i would probably just get what i have now, h1/2 with a digital back- probably phase.
paul
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I know that the two companies have signed a cooperation agreement. Nevertheless, you could have split and made 2 distinct choices with the Leaf and Sinar brands: although the 2 cameras (AFi and Hy6) have basically the same functions, the backs these 2 companies are proposing are quite different.
Thierry
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The poll is not clear. The heading asks about the 'body', in which case the Hy6 and AFi should be together.
Then the poll question is about the whole 'system'.
I went with the heading, and voted on my ideal camera body.
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Truly I hope sinar Digital Back division could really merge with Leaf, to reduce R&D costs for both hardware and software, therefore make them more competitive in the market. And Rollei hy6 should just be Rollei hy6, call it afi or sinar hy6 just makes confusion, let alone the lost of Rollei's "bling" effect.
The poll is not clear. The heading asks about the 'body', in which case the Hy6 and AFi should be together.
Then the poll question is about the whole 'system'.
I went with the heading, and voted on my ideal camera body.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You get better image quality and WLFs from the RZ and a large part of the portibility of the 645AFD/III.
What are WLFs?
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Dustblue,
The name "Rollei" does not exist/is not permitted for the MF cameras and accessories. If at all, then it is "Rolleiflex", and this ONLY for cameras being sold by F&H.
BUT: the Hy6 is a Jenoptik camera/project, with F&H being the contracted manufacturer for Jenoptik. Therefore named differently, with reasons and rights.
This has been explained a hundred times, in the last 2 years. I don't think there can be any confusion.
Best regards,
Thierry
Truly I hope sinar Digital Back division could really merge with Leaf, to reduce R&D costs for both hardware and software, therefore make them more competitive in the market. And Rollei hy6 should just be Rollei hy6, call it afi or sinar hy6 just makes confusion, let alone the lost of Rollei's "bling" effect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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WLF - Waist Level (View)Finder
Dustblue,
The name "Rollei" does not exist/is not permitted for the MF cameras and accessories. If at all, then it is "Rolleiflex", and this ONLY for cameras being sold by F&H.
BUT: the Hy6 is a Jenoptik camera/project, with F&H being the contracted manufacturer for Jenoptik. Therefore named differently, with reasons and rights.
This has been explained a hundred times, in the last 2 years. I don't think there can be any confusion.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Option was not there but I would buy another Contax 645 system, I just love this camera and its associated lenses. I'll probably remain with Leaf for DB unless the the S2 was out at the time.
david
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Yea sure, all of us here know it, but remember not all photographers go to forums. Some of them even don't use computers. One of my friend decided to buy leaf afi about one year ago, when he asked for my opinion I recommended sinar hy6 to him. You know what? He didn't know it EXIST at all!
I just give out my suggestion, I hope the hy6 system could share more space in this market because I like it, and sinar too.
So take it easy, Thierry, all photogs here bitching about sinar or leaf of hassie of phase, not for killing them, but making them better.
Dustblue,
The name "Rollei" does not exist/is not permitted for the MF cameras and accessories. If at all, then it is "Rolleiflex", and this ONLY for cameras being sold by F&H.
BUT: the Hy6 is a Jenoptik camera/project, with F&H being the contracted manufacturer for Jenoptik. Therefore named differently, with reasons and rights.
This has been explained a hundred times, in the last 2 years. I don't think there can be any confusion.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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don't worry, Dustblue, am taking it easy. I simply have to correct, when the brand "Rollei" is named. I know there is no bad intention from you, otherwise I would have reacted more "strongly"!
Kidding!
best regards,
Thierry
Yea sure, all of us here know it, but remember not all photographers go to forums. Some of them even don't use computers. One of my friend decided to buy leaf afi about one year ago, when he asked for my opinion I recommended sinar hy6 to him. You know what? He didn't know it EXIST at all!
I just give out my suggestion, I hope the hy6 system could share more space in this market because I like it, and sinar too.
So take it easy, Thierry, all photogs here bitching about sinar or leaf of hassie of phase, not for killing them, but making them better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226564\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Let the dust settle and consider buying used as there is a consistent flow of used digital backs coming to market. These units where the high priced darlings of MF companies now available at huge markdowns.
The software that drives the digital back is just as important as the back itself. My first back was Leaf Aptus and although the file was very nice, the capture software was very unstable and unfinished. Its gotten much better now!
I then moved to Phase was because they offered a complete solution from a solid digital back to a pro software even though I prefer the Leaf life.
Sinar offers perhaps that most versatile solution allowing to you to use it in multiple camera platforms, but they have a weak presence in the US with an invisible rental base.
In addition, a file that one could process in multiple RAW converters(ACR, Raw Developer, etc) with ease is a great option allow for workflow ease and different looks.
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Sinar offers perhaps that most versatile solution allowing to you to use it in multiple camera platforms, but they have a weak presence in the US with an invisible rental base.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hope Sinar's presence in the US and their rental base will truly improve and change for better...
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don't worry, Dustblue, am taking it easy. I simply have to correct, when the brand "Rollei" is named. I know there is no bad intention from you, otherwise I would have reacted more "strongly"!
Kidding!
best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226569\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
I know that she changed her name when she got married but her maiden name was just sooo.. much prettier.
Some may call her HY6, some may call her Dolores but to me she will always be Rollei.
Andre
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OK, accepted, but only because it's you, Andre!
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I know that she changed her name when she got married but her maiden name was just sooo.. much prettier.
Some may call her HY6, some may call her Dolores but to me she will always be Rollei.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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OK, accepted, but only because it's you, Andre!
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow that is great. Thanks Thierry.
Since you are so understanding than maybe.... I will marry into Your Sinar family.
Andre
PS
She will have to change her name again!
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Let's see what can be done: may be a special "Andre Napier" edition.
Thierry
Wow that is great. Thanks Thierry.
Since you are so understanding than maybe.... I will marry into Your Sinar family.
Andre
PS
She will have to change her name again!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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P45+, Cambo RS 1000, and lenes more lenes did I mention more lenes? don't forget the Phase 645 and all the lenes that went with that - 28, 35, 75-150 and a 300.
Told wife we need to eat out more any way
don
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Let's see what can be done: may be a special "Andre Napier" edition.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is a marketing genious at work!!!! I can see the waiting list for this black beauty.
Now I have to run and make some money for the black paint.
Andre
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Thierry how about that black colour, is that happening anytime soon?
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From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.
Edmund
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I'm very happy with my Sinar Hy6/75LVr combo.
I even like the color scheme!
However I'm looking forward to their 35 mm lens and the wide sensor to fully optimize the lenses.
Andre,if you want a name change for your Sinar/Leaf Hy6/Afi ,all you have to do replace the viewfinders with the Rolleiflex ones.
Cheers,
Willem.
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From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.
Edmund
Edmund,
These type of polls are kind of like what you do if you won the lottery.
It's different when it comes time to really write the check.
I do think all of medium format needs to think hard about pricing, but when push comes to shove and it's time to get to work, I'd probably buy just what I've got now, including the Contax, as I know it works, I know the software, I know it's stable and unless anything really remarkable comes out, I wouldn't do anything different.
I do think that Phase hurt themself by being late on V4 pro. Not that you can't work with 3.78, it's still the most stable and usable tethering software I've tried but there is just some good faith lost when something as important as software is late and until now, Phase had that as a major plus.
JR
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James,
I agree with you. In fact, I think the results of the poll reflects the perception of quality people now have of the MF solutions presently manufactured. That's exactly what you mean by "What you'd buy if you win the lottery". And perception of quality is exactly what first time buyers use as a criterion. I think Phase would be up there at the front of the poll if their technology were perceived as superior. Sic transit gloria mundi.
Edmund
Edmund,
These type of polls are kind of like what you do if you won the lottery.
It's different when it comes time to really write the check.
I do think all of medium format needs to think hard about pricing, but when push comes to shove and it's time to get to work, I'd probably buy just what I've got now, including the Contax, as I know it works, I know the software, I know it's stable and unless anything really remarkable comes out, I wouldn't do anything different.
I do think that Phase hurt themself by being late on V4 pro. Not that you can't work with 3.78, it's still the most stable and usable tethering software I've tried but there is just some good faith lost when something as important as software is late and until now, Phase had that as a major plus.
JR
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James,
I agree with you. In fact, I think the results of the poll reflects the perception of quality people now have of the MF solutions presently manufactured. That's exactly what you mean by "What you'd buy if you win the lottery". And perception of quality is exactly what first time buyers use as a criterion. I think Phase would be up there at the front of the poll if their technology were perceived as superior. Sic transit gloria mundi.
Edmund
When you work day in and day out Phase is probably considered the most stable and not just by the owners, who tend to be brand loyal, but just about every rental house will have the same opinion.
I'm not pushing phase, they have thier own set of issues, (let's not talk about lcds) and the functionality of the back menu is fairly non intuitive, especially now in the world on iphones and ipod touches where you visually just punch in what you see.
In fact that little nikon d-90 is much more intuitive than any medium format back I've used, just checking focus is push and watch.
Still, your poll reflects buying a back and camera from the same company and also combines Leaf and Sinar into one brand, which I am not sure is the case. You also list a mythical Nikon MX and until we see it, knows that it tethers, etc. etc., it's just a thought.
It also doesn't take into account if rentals are available or for that matter how we really use these things.
I'd bet, and I don't know the numbers that Leaf and Phase probably still sell as many backs in H-mounts as they do their own new cameras, (I don't have any evidence of this).
But let's be realistic, nearly all of medium format is missing something.
Phase is waiting on leaf shutter lenses, the HY6 needs a 35mm wide angle, Hasselblad has been very slow on their software and still can't get the same functions out of the Kodak sensors that Phase had two years ago.
The new Sinar seems very interesting, but as far as I'm concerned all of these new annoucements from photokina are just vaporware until they actually get on the shelf and get proven in use, so if I was buying today, I'd just do a P30 or a p30+ find some more Contax gear and get on with my life.
Actually, if I was going to add to your poll I would have a spot for would you buy a medium format back again, because I see a lot of people I know put their backs on the for sale section of this forum. Even to take it further I would make it price dependent, price non dependent.
I think that would change the numbers also.
JR
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James,
Again I have to agree with what you say. What is more I have a feeling that a lot of people here are going to pick up a 5DII to tryout, and suddenly realize they shot their campaigns with it ... There's nothing more dangerous to an established heavyweight technology than an agile toy -
Edmund
When you work day in and day out Phase is probably considered the most stable and not just by the owners, who tend to be brand loyal, but just about every rental house will have the same opinion.
I'm not pushing phase, they have thier own set of issues, (let's not talk about lcds) and the functionality of the back menu is fairly non intuitive, especially now in the world on iphones and ipod touches where you visually just punch in what you see.
In fact that little nikon d-90 is much more intuitive than any medium format back I've used, just checking focus is push and watch.
Still, your poll reflects buying a back and camera from the same company and also combines Leaf and Sinar into one brand, which I am not sure is the case. You also list a mythical Nikon MX and until we see it, knows that it tethers, etc. etc., it's just a thought.
It also doesn't take into account if rentals are available or for that matter how we really use these things.
I'd bet, and I don't know the numbers that Leaf and Phase probably still sell as many backs in H-mounts as they do their own new cameras, (I don't have any evidence of this).
But let's be realistic, nearly all of medium format is missing something.
Phase is waiting on leaf shutter lenses, the HY6 needs a 35mm wide angle, Hasselblad has been very slow on their software and still can't get the same functions out of the Kodak sensors that Phase had two years ago.
The new Sinar seems very interesting, but as far as I'm concerned all of these new annoucements from photokina are just vaporware until they actually get on the shelf and get proven in use, so if I was buying today, I'd just do a P30 or a p30+ find some more Contax gear and get on with my life.
Actually, if I was going to add to your poll I would have a spot for would you buy a medium format back again, because I see a lot of people I know put their backs on the for sale section of this forum. Even to take it further I would make it price dependent, price non dependent.
I think that would change the numbers also.
JR
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I shoot on a H3D 22 - I like it, but I think I'd love to go mam 645 - just on sheer cost of the lenses. I only own the 80, rent everything else. I like the H3 body more than the Mam, but I want a zoom, a wide, extended and I dont want to take out a second mortgage on my life. so maybe a mam645 w/ a CF22 or even P25. I dotn need 1/800 leaf shutter lenses either presently (if ever??)
I thought the body/lens integration would be significant for me but it isnt. Phocus is a bust, no ISO bump, runs lame, doesnt run on my laptop. Flex is great, solid, but clunky. I use lightroom 95% of the time anyhow.
problem is, ya see, the market on used DBs/leased DBs has had the bottom fall out, so I dont think it'd be possible to trade and move over...kinda sh*tty situation to be in right now
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James,
No vaporware with the Sinar Hy6 65: the first demo units are being delivered to distributors, as promised and announced.
Best regards,
Thierry
The new Sinar seems very interesting, but as far as I'm concerned all of these new annoucements from photokina are just vaporware until they actually get on the shelf and get proven in use, so if I was buying today, I'd just do a P30 or a p30+ find some more Contax gear and get on with my life.
JR
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If that case of equipment got stolen from your hotel room tomorrow, and the wife let you use the insurance money for something other than a new kitchen, what would you buy ?
Edmund
Quite a tough question, for the removable digital capture, I would go to Sinar system because the same back goes on varies platform, which is indeed flexible. The lens choice, if counted by what is available from 6008/Hy6, to the large format lenses, is without doubt the largest selection ever in photography offering, and also count Alpa 12 as part of system - although that also include Phase and Other back (may be not H3 series back because it is not really that portable).
The S2 is another offering that, to me, it is likely a large size point & shoot type of camera of medium format quality (suppose it deliver what it said to deliver and I have no doubt), it will works the way today medium format digital back users take 1Ds 1/2/3 or 5D as back up, because it is really portable. Especially the S2 is claimed to be weather and moisture proof. I think the digital back offer the choice of adapting the device to a varies technical platform that camera such as typical SLR type camera cannot match - especially when you consider the camera like ArTec, you really do not need to up-grade to higher megapixels back to get giga pixels picture, it allow you to attach lens of lager image circle and all you need to do is to stitch the captures - may be more useful for landscape, architecture and interior, but for studio production, it has its value as well.
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No vaporware with the Sinar Hy6 65: the first demo units are being delivered to distributors, as promised and announced.
Where can you rent one in the United States today?
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Where can you rent one in the United States today?
Where can you buy on in the United States today?
What is the U.S. List price?
Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable? (enough to bet an imporant project on it).
Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?
If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?
How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?
Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?
Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?
Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?
Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?
Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?
Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?
JR
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From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.
Edmund
Yes, I'm surprised by this too, Edmund. Not sure it means anything in the real world, though but it is interesting.
Thierry- I tend to agree with James. Products aren't real until one can take one home. I have no doubts that the 65R is on its way, but I don't think we can call it 'done' just yet.
-Brad
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edmund,
i certainly agree that there shouldnt be a vote cameras which dont exist, from which noone ever has seen a frame, no price exists or even noone knows if they even will hit the market. i wouldnt see that the leica and more the nikon are in this respect comparable to the 65back from sinar. the nikon is pure speculation and the leica exist as prototype without specs and prices, so its hard to understand why they are in the poll and even harder how one can seriously vote for them. the spirit from sinar is ready, with all specs and prices and is on the way to the dealers, so its really a different thing.
further i dont see much sense why you have put sinar and leaf together. you havent done this with leica phase ( and you are right that you havent done so ) , they announced partnership too.
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Where can you buy on in the United States today?
What is the U.S. List price?
Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable? (enough to bet an imporant project on it).
Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?
If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?
How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?
Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?
Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?
Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?
Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?
Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?
Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?
JR
That really does say it all!!!!!!!!
Murray
ps Theirry - please pass that on
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(I am personally sick of this whole concept where the testing has to be done by the clients - after they have spend their money. At this level of professionalism (and price level) products have to fully work as advertised in the environment where they are supposed to be used. Why do I have to agree to a disclaimer that says "software is supplied 'as is' and no warranties are made that it will work" in order to be able to use very expensive, professional equipment?)
I was talking to a friend who consults for the steel industry. He says that at these prices, he would be expected to give a performance guarantee.
Kumar
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Hmm... looks like a great result for the Leafy Sinars.
Only problem is, most of us aren't starting from a clean sheet of paper. I'm sitting here looking a two AFD/II bodies and a dozen Mamiya lenses... and its my backup camera.
This means that Phase's strategy seems a pretty good one to me.
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Where can you buy on in the United States today?
What is the U.S. List price?
Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable? (enough to bet an imporant project on it).
Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?
If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?
How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?
Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?
Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?
Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?
Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?
Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?
Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?
JR
I'm interested in the s65r, I'd appreciate a thorough report/review of each point James has made.
Cheers
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I'm interested in the s65r, I'd appreciate a thorough report/review of each point James has made.
Cheers
I would add to this - does the camera focus correctly under the conditions I expect to use it ?
Edmund
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James,
- I have published the prices, even in US$, shortly before Photokina: the prices in the US should be about the same, here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27940 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27940)
Contact anyone of SBI's Sales Manager:
SINAR BRON IMAGING REGIONAL SALES MANAGERS
MARK MATHER
mmather@sinarbron.com
CA, ID, NV, OR, WA
(661) 252-9460 (OFFICE)
(661) 252-9470 (FAX)
JIM REED
jreed@sinarbron.com
NJ, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK CITY
(917) 402-7550 (OFFICE)
(866) 498-4951 (FAX)
MIKE FLUITT
mfluitt@sinarbron.com
AR, KS, LA, MO, OK, TX
(972) 841-2360 (OFFICE)
DAVE MCRITCHIE
dmcritchie@sinarbron.com
CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, NH, PA, RI, UPSTATE NY, VA, VT, WASHINGTON DC, WV
(603) 867-1813 (OFFICE)
(603) 965-0328 (FAX)
- The software works, with this camera, but fact is, that it does not even need it anymore. Remember, this camera system and back produces on-board DNG's and JPG's.
- The software does run tethered, so far without any noticeable problem from what I have seen.
- Speed of capture: I haven't tried it myself, but should be a little slower (possibly 1.5 - 2.0 sec.) than the capture rate (1 fps), depending on the Mac configuration.
- 900 pixel JPGs: as explained, they are produced on-board (un-tethered), with different choices of resolution.
- renaming, background processing, dual window editing: all this has been informed already, and the answer is yes.
- dual window/multiple windows: you can "layout" your Exposure windows/plugins as you wish, on 2 monitors, if needed. As for picking up the calibration: this is one I have to check.
- DNG compatibility: this has been answered already as well. The answer is yes.
- Display: the display shows the captured image until it is in the Mac/PC (yes, there is also a PC version with the very same functions as the Mac version).
- jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues: not yet, as far as I am concerned.
- Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed: yes, it does so (except for older lenses).
Best regards,
Thierry
Where can you buy on in the United States today?
What is the U.S. List price?
Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable? (enough to bet an imporant project on it).
Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?
If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?
How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?
Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?
Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?
Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?
Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?
Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?
Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?
JR
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For me Hasselblad is the best system on the market right now.
With H3DII-39 I don't have any problems that i have with older model of H system. Amazing lenses with central shutter. HCD 28 is perfect. HC 2.2./100mm is my favorite lens.
HTS 1.5 works very nice. We can use 28,35,50,80,100 also with extension tube. (DAC work- it;s something) 80% of tabletop photography we can do with HTS 1.5.
If you need more adv system - you can buy arca or linhof wiht HR lenses and att digital unit via sliding adapter. You don't need computer if you don't want. It;s simple - att battery grip to adapter and go.
In Phocus 1.1 you have white calibration tool - also you can change setings of your HR lenses directly form Phocus. Ver 1.1 is much much faster that 1.0.1 Guys from Denmark do great job.
Right now you will not have any problems with upgrading firmware, phocus will do everything.
Working tethered to your computer is very very fast.
But somebody tell that is close system... My question is : who care about it? if you get in this system everything what you want Nikon and Canon are close system too. They droping the price too. Is it something wrong?
I think that no. Phase, Leaf , Sinar in my opinion don't have full range of accesories (viewfinders,lenses etc.) and their prices are too high. I don't think that they product are bad. They don't have "complete system".
If you use phase, sinar or leaf, and you are happy with it. Everything is ok. Because it is only your tool. Best tool for me is Hasselblad.
Sorry guys for my english
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Now that is a nice comprehensive checklist of the usual things a pro who puts his job at stake with the camera/workflow he uses needs to know! I suggest to the Jenoptik people that they print it big and hang it in their testlab for everybody involved to look at, every day, before any new announcement is being made. (I am personally sick of this whole concept where the testing has to be done by the clients - after they have spend their money. At this level of professionalism (and price level) products have to fully work as advertised in the environment where they are supposed to be used. Why do I have to agree to a disclaimer that says "software is supplied 'as is' and no warranties are made that it will work" in order to be able to use very expensive, professional equipment?)
I could/should have added to this but it was late.
1. Does tethering work up to 30' without a powerered firewire repeater?
2. Does the camera/back self power in tethering, i.e. for problematic mac's with limited firewire power or working pc.
3. Does the software require special graphics cards, i.e. will it work with a macbook pro, 24" I-mac, etc.
4. Does the back have the ability to shoot jpgs or raw/jpegs to the cf card simutaneuously when tethering.
5. Can you set color, tone, (your film look in the software) and then embed that into the back for non tethered shooting, so if you go from tethering to portable you have the same look?
6. Does the software require online activation (God I hate this as I own a lot of computers, including backup, but NEVER run the software more than on two computers at once, so with Phase I own two liscenses).
7. Does the firmware upgrades come from the software or the firmware and if so, if a firmware upgrade has a glitch, i.e. bad green color previews, lines in the frame, half black frames, centerfold, wonky grey balance settings (I've seen em all) can you go back to a previous version so you can keep working?
8. Are the previews in the software smooth and film like or hard and crunchy, think C-1 3.78 for the hard and crunch, think EOS utility for nice and smooth and film like.
9. Does the software retstart quickly. If the firewire cord is pulled out during working is it a 1 minute restart of software or a 10, 15 minute troubleshooting session of restarting computers, drives, etc.
10. Can you rename on the fly?
Now this and the other list is off the top of my head and this comes from experience of having everything happen as above and how to work around it.
The thing is the Phase and C-1 do most of the good things I've mentioned and a few of the bad, (the previews and sometimes some firewire issues), though at least the back powers itself.
I would suggest strongly that your new camera/back has previews still in the back for review or at least hold the last frame until you start shooting again, so the photogrpaher doesn't have to run over to the computer station to check the last frame.
Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000. I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.
This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format. NO more excuses. Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent. If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them. Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy. Also paint it black.
No more excuses.
JR
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I tested the MF cameras from a well known company at Photokina. I tried imaging a person, with studio flash, and the camera had a serious focus offset. I was given another camera sample, same problem. The rep agreed there was an issue, due to the "firmware". I now understand why a well-known photographer who is often heard from on the forums prefers to use an obsolete camera on the theory that it is well-matured.
Edmund
I could/should have added to this but it was late.
1. Does tethering work up to 30' without a powerered firewire repeater?
2. Does the camera/back self power in tethering, i.e. for problematic mac's with limited firewire power or working pc.
3. Does the software require special graphics cards, i.e. will it work with a macbook pro, 24" I-mac, etc.
4. Does the back have the ability to shoot jpgs or raw/jpegs to the cf card simutaneuously when tethering.
5. Can you set color, tone, (your film look in the software) and then embed that into the back for non tethered shooting, so if you go from tethering to portable you have the same look?
6. Does the software require online activation (God I hate this as I own a lot of computers, including backup, but NEVER run the software more than on two computers at once, so with Phase I own two liscenses).
7. Does the firmware upgrades come from the software or the firmware and if so, if a firmware upgrade has a glitch, i.e. bad green color previews, lines in the frame, half black frames, centerfold, wonky grey balance settings (I've seen em all) can you go back to a previous version so you can keep working?
8. Are the previews in the software smooth and film like or hard and crunchy, think C-1 3.78 for the hard and crunch, think EOS utility for nice and smooth and film like.
9. Does the software retstart quickly. If the firewire cord is pulled out during working is it a 1 minute restart of software or a 10, 15 minute troubleshooting session of restarting computers, drives, etc.
10. Can you rename on the fly?
Now this and the other list is off the top of my head and this comes from experience of having everything happen as above and how to work around it.
The thing is the Phase and C-1 do most of the good things I've mentioned and a few of the bad, (the previews and sometimes some firewire issues), though at least the back powers itself.
I would suggest strongly that your new camera/back has previews still in the back for review or at least hold the last frame until you start shooting again, so the photogrpaher doesn't have to run over to the computer station to check the last frame.
Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000. I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.
This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format. NO more excuses. Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent. If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them. Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy. Also paint it black.
No more excuses.
JR
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Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000. I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.
This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format. NO more excuses. Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent. If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them. Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy. Also paint it black.
No more excuses.
Now you're getting somewhere, young man. Combine this second list with the first one, and xerox it for every person that calls a medium format dealer, and make them answer every question.
And you are correct -- when that silly little 5D2 starts shipping, the price comparisons are going to get really laughable -- $2500 versus tens of thousands.
My prediction: by next AnnouncaKina, there will be one MF company with a booth there, and it starts with an "H". Not that anyone will still be buying, but they simply have deeper pockets.
How many years have we asked for these answers? Very many. Yet they think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone.
I just hope there's not a bailout for MF companies. Some companies deserve to go under.
I am a medium format photographer, and hate 35. But when there's money on the table, you go with what works, and what's not going to give you fits.
You are right -- No more excuses.
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Now you're getting somewhere, young man. Combine this second list with the first one, and xerox it for every person that calls a medium format dealer, and make them answer every question.
And you are correct -- when that silly little 5D2 starts shipping, the price comparisons are going to get really laughable -- $2500 versus tens of thousands.
My prediction: by next AnnouncaKina, there will be one MF company with a booth there, and it starts with an "H". Not that anyone will still be buying, but they simply have deeper pockets.
How many years have we asked for these answers? Very many. Yet they think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone.
I just hope there's not a bailout for MF companies. Some companies deserve to go under.
I am a medium format photographer, and hate 35. But when there's money on the table, you go with what works, and what's not going to give you fits.
You are right -- No more excuses.
I would take this one step further and print this list and on the bottom add a clause:
I (value added dealer) to hearby promise that of all the things me and my sales guys check off on this list actually work today. I (value added dealer) also heaby promise that any features, functions, hardware, software, firmware, that is promsed in the future will happen as per the manufacturers ship date. I (value added dealer) stand by these claims and if it doesn't happpen, the camera doesn't function as advertised, the next firmware turns everything green, purple, red, centerfolds, or produces half black frames, I (value added dealer) promise to to return the sales price in full.
Let's be realistic. If your $3,000 nikon shot runny green previews, or wouldn't work with a cf card, required a $5,000 desktop to tether, required a new video card to just run the software, or would jam every 200 frames requiring removal of the battery, you would return it.
Your right, we have been asking for much of this forever and honestly it's not because most of us buy these things for fun, or just to be cool looking. We buy them for work and whether your shooting a $500 portrait or a $285,000 advertising campaing, both hold equal importantce to the end user.
Now I would like to see annoucekina just go away because it makes to sense to me to annouce stuff that isn't selling the day you annouce it, or at least selling the next week. Good God, the makers have two years to get ready. That's a long time to plan for the big dance.
Theirry, you seem to be the defender of truth justice and everything Sinar and you answered most of my first questions, but the real question I have is when can you buy it? Saying dealers are getting demos means nothing. I would never demo a camera I couldn't buy on the day, period.
JR
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Amen, Ph.D. Edmund Ronald!
You must be taken very seriously, when spending your time to find a drink and afterwards complaining and criticizing that there was no beer offered, only coffee!
Thierry
I tested the MF cameras from a well known company at Photokina. I tried imaging a person, with studio flash, and the camera had a serious focus offset. I was given another camera sample, same problem. The rep agreed there was an issue, due to the "firmware". I now understand why a well-known photographer who is often heard from on the forums prefers to use an obsolete camera on the theory that it is well-matured.
Edmund
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Amen, Ph.D. Edmund Ronald!
You must be taken very seriously, when spending your time to find a drink and afterwards complaining and criticizing that there was no beer offered, only coffee!
Thierry
Thierry, I was very careful here, I didn't name the product. Do you really want me to name it ? There were witnesses.
I can understand that MF bodies have teething problems. The thing is, by the time they are almost solved, the successor is already announced. James is very smart, he shoots with his zombie living-dead Contax which cannot fall sick anymore because it is mummified and embalmed. The only way to kill a Contax is, I guess, an axe.
Edmund
PS - if you had found me a decent drink, as promised on this forum, I wouldn't have gone to test cameras. I would have been a happy drunk.
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Edmund,
I am WELL AWARE, that you didn't name it, and HOW CAREFUL you have been.
Again, AMEN to all you say!
As for the drink, I do not want to sound rude or not polite, and leave it to your judgment.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, I was very careful here, I didn't name the product. Do you really want me to name it ? There were witnesses.
I can understand that MF bodies have teething problems. The thing is, by the time they are almost solved, the successor is already announced. James is very smart, he shoots with his zombie living-dead Contax which cannot fall sick anymore because it is mummified and embalmed. The only way to kill a Contax is, I guess, an axe.
Edmund
PS - if you had found me a decent drink, as promised on this forum, I wouldn't have gone to test cameras. I would have been a happy drunk.
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When you buy a full system (meaning body, DB, viewfinder) the "value" added by the dealer is 45%. Lense they want to push (meaning common types) have an "added value" of 17%-20%, while other lenses (the ones a serious photog wants to have) have an "added value" of 25%. On the backs without a body there is an "added value" of 45%, while the cheapest model (the one to get starters into the system) has an All he has to do is moving boxes (not the ones on his shelves, but the ones he orders after I have called to buy something.)
Holy Moley - 45%??? No wonder these backs are so @%#&$ expensive.
Like the Ph.D., I was recently at a NY MF dealer, when he was showing me the new Mamiya kit with a 33mp back, the thing kept disconnecting itself from the computer. All I was thinking was, this guy has this camera day and night and still does not know how to keep it connected to a computer long enough for a demo? How is he going to provide me any Value Added Support then?? Indeed, I'll take the 45% V.A.S. tax and I promise never to ask you any questions ;-)
Meanwhile I recently shot some ads for some of the most expensive residences in the world (mile-high condo bldg in Dubai) with a 1Ds3, and they loved the files! No questions asked.
I have 3 5DIIs on order.
p.s. By the way Thierry, where can I get my hands on a Hy6 in NYC?
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I do agree to what James and Epd said here lately. Although I am sort off a happy man with my H3D II 39 I, my glass and the up-coming tilt shift adaptor, I still feel that MF companies are about to render themselves obsolete. Mainly because they are so busy in the breathtaking race for superlatives ("Full" / "First" / "Biggest" ...). If you run at high speed you can not hear what people are telling you.
Maybe the H company has now realized that following the common MF business rules will lead to a fumble (being a German therefore soccer fan I hope I spelled that correctly).
Anyway, with increasing quality on the 35mm side and more and more sophisticated software it may not take a long time until the MF industry will not longer be able to base their sales pitch on superior resolution etc.
The image below was shot with a Leica M8, 4 frames handheld, stitched with AutoPanoPro and developed in Lightroom. Stitching and LR took me 30 minutes, with Genuine Fractals I created a 40 x 123 inch file form the original 10 x 31 inch, printed it on canvas, mounted it and deliverd the picture to my client who has already some large prints shot with my Hasselblad gear.
They were "amazed" about the "little details".
/Frank
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Frank,
that was the "Netherlands" vs. "France", wasn't it?
You're touching my sensitivity: bad memories for me!
Thierry
PS: nice shot, though
They were "amazed" about the "little details".
/Frank
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Disclaimer:
I can assure you that none of our distributors/dealers has such margins, as mentioned below. I believe that EPd did not mean Sinar distributors/dealers with his post, but I wish to make it clear. And if some wonder, the manufacturer I represent does neither have these margins.
Best regards,
Thierry
PS: one can buy online from Sinar Germany, since a while. And quite some systems have been sold this way
Photokina is good for many things, really. One MF brand was kind enough to hand out price lists with both dealer prices and end user prices on it. When you buy a full system (meaning body, DB, viewfinder) the "value" added by the dealer is 45%. Lense they want to push (meaning common types) have an "added value" of 17%-20%, while other lenses (the ones a serious photog wants to have) have an "added value" of 25%. On the backs without a body there is an "added value" of 45%, while the cheapest model (the one to get starters into the system) has an "added value" of 33%. Dealers can get a discount on full systems and backs, not on lenses. When a dealer sells you the "added value" of extended warranty he gets 50% of the deal. For all these "added values" I would expect a dealer to run errands for me. In reality I have NEVER needed any dealer support other than a standard warranty repair for which he had to take in my equipment and send it on to the factory. Usually the dealer was even reluctant to do that for me. I do not need a spoken manual from my dealer (I can read) and I do not need a cup of coffee, since coffee makes me shake. Most of the time when I want to buy something I just call my dealer and have it send to me. All he has to do is moving boxes (not the ones on his shelves, but the ones he orders after I have called to buy something.)
I would strongly suggest to Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad and PhaseOne to offer two options to buy their stuff: 1. from a dealer, with added value, or 2. directly from the factory with no personal support on user level. Buyers would just have to send in for warranty repairs themselves and download manuals and firmware updates on their own. I often buy from an online computer shop that has it very clearly in their rules: "we can carry such low prices because we do not offer any support, other than factory warranty". For me this has worked very well. I've had a few warranty issues with them and they handled it just great. But I never called them to ask how to use the stuff I bought from them.
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Frank,
that was the "Netherlands" vs. "France", wasn't it?
You're touching my sensitivity: bad memories for me!
Thierry
PS: nice shot, though
Yes it was. I have been there with the client mentioned above ... and he (the CEO) is french. Strange enough he still wanted to have this image hanging at his office wall
(for those who do not follow European soccer: France lost this game)
/F
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PS: one can buy online from Sinar Germany, since a while. And quite some systems have been sold this way
... but you do not pass the VAR margin onto the one who purchases online do you?
/F
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I would strongly suggest to Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad and PhaseOne to offer two options to buy their stuff: 1. from a dealer, with added value, or 2. directly from the factory with no personal support on user level. Buyers would just have to send in for warranty repairs themselves and download manuals and firmware updates on their own. I often buy from an online computer shop that has it very clearly in their rules: "we can carry such low prices because we do not offer any support, other than factory warranty". For me this has worked very well. I've had a few warranty issues with them and they handled it just great. But I never called them to ask how to use the stuff I bought from them.
I agree with this "box pusher" approach in theory, but let's be honest -- how many buyers would pay the Value Added option, and thus, the dealer cannot survive. Only large corporations or maybe large catalogue houses would go for that VA option. So that probably wouldn't work in the real world.
What I love about this thread is that the fog about pricing is getting lifted, and some reality is creeping in here. Maybe it's the economy, and everything is creeping closer to the bone; who knows.
But I know that when I bought my second back, the dealer wanted an extra $1995 for "training and support", on top of the pretty much list price that I'd already paid. I did not exercise the $1995 option.
On my first back ever purchased, I was so freaked at the amount of money on the table that I insisted on a 30-day no questions asked return policy. This was an H1D, with the Dialysis Machine Hard Drive hanging off it. There were errors and a short in the HD cable, and I returned the whole system. Thank God I'd negotiated that return policy.
Enough time has passed. No more excuses. Especially at these prices. Imagine if you'd been the guy who paid full price for an Aptus 22, and had to fight Leaf 10 (and 8) software. No way in hell.
No more excuses. Plug and play, (just like Canon), or send it back. End of story.
There are lots of pros using Canon. Not because they'd choose to -- because most of them are MF shooters, by choice. They use Canon because there's enough pressure from the job itself; the last thing they need are surprises from an expensive, highly-touted camera system.
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I agree with this "box pusher" approach in theory, but let's be honest -- how many buyers would pay the Value Added option, and thus, the dealer cannot survive. Only large corporations or maybe large catalogue houses would go for that VA option. So that probably wouldn't work in the real world.
Dealers survived selling medium format standard kits averaging $3,000 prior to digital.
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There are lots of pros using Canon. Not because they'd choose to -- because most of them are MF shooters, by choice. They use Canon because there's enough pressure from the job itself; the last thing they need are surprises from an expensive, highly-touted camera system.
What's interesting is looking around on the web and coming across stuff that you would swear had that MF "look", and then you look at the exif, and it's Canon:
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/call...oltz/8641/51109 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/calle-stoltz/8641/51109)
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52906 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marcus-ohlsson/8837/52906)
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52912 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marcus-ohlsson/8837/52912)
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52903 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marcus-ohlsson/8837/52903)
No doubt many of these people intended to be using MF, but didn't. (The above shots are 1Ds3, by the way. Not mine though.)
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I am giving this medium format digital back situation abit more time, since I am already invested in it
But let me state that it is ludicrous that backs this expensive cannot work problem-free.
I can't remember how many jobs I've switched from using my Leaf to my Canon because the back stalled up or disconnected from the computer, and my talents/models/subject was just sitting there.
Yes I think I have a 5DII on my order list too...
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What's interesting is looking around on the web and coming across stuff that you would swear had that MF "look", and then you look at the exif, and it's Canon:
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/call...oltz/8641/51109 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/calle-stoltz/8641/51109)
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52906 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marcus-ohlsson/8837/52906)
No doubt many of these people intended to be using MF, but didn't. (Both the above shots are 1Ds3, by the way. Not mine though.)
I was dumping a new back-up drive into Portfolio when I noticed several images I shot in 2006 looked pretty nice. I looked at the exif and they were 1ds2 or 5D. I printed them on photo rag at 11x14 and compared them to some P30+ prints. No difference in the print. OK, the Phase prints were smoother, sort of.
In response to the poll, I'll buy another back when I can get a Sinar 54lv for the same price as a 5D2, and I'll slap that back on a Hy6 or even on the RZ.
I'll tell you what made me think twice about Phase: pricing the AFD3 with a three year warranty at $7000; pricing the new D lenses higher than H and Rollei; pricing the P65 at $42k, coming so late to the game with C1 Pro (still not out), the pricing of the Boris lens, etc. . . . They were starting to sound like the Bush administration after Hurricane Katrina, or the McCain campaign talking about Mrs. Palin's foreign policy qualifications. Just insanity. I think their business judgment is questionable. Last summer every jackass with a 401k knew that times were going to get rough. Great! Phase, a multimillion Euro business, decides its a great time to sell a $42,000 piece of hardware no one NEEDS, and to similarly price a an improved Mamiya camera at $7,000 which is the same as a Made In Germany Uberkamera from Rollei. Meanwhile, a professional camera company like Canon rolls out a 14 bit, 21 megapixel 4 frame per second dslr priced at $2700, a camera that can (and will) shoot 95% of magazine assignments and 95% of $300k campaigns. The last 5% might require a removable back, such as for arch. or food, or table top. Oh yeah, and it shoots HD video, and it just happens that I now shoot more video than stills. By the way, my partners and I ordered four 5d2's.
I think Phase will be purchased and have its technology and R&D assimilated into the buyer. I think the digital side of Sinar and Leaf will have to become two brands in the same company, with all of the backs being the Hy6 mount, and all fitting the Sinar camera solutions as well as the Hy6. Blad will be fine.
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What's interesting is looking around on the web and coming across stuff that you would swear had that MF "look", and then you look at the exif, and it's Canon:
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/call...oltz/8641/51109 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/calle-stoltz/8641/51109)
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52906 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marcus-ohlsson/8837/52906)
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52912 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marcus-ohlsson/8837/52912)
http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marc...sson/8837/52903 (http://www.lundlund.com/photographers/marcus-ohlsson/8837/52903)
No doubt many of these people intended to be using MF, but didn't. (The above shots are 1Ds3, by the way. Not mine though.)
I don't know... nice shots, but wouldn't be my first choice at shots that have the "mf" look. They don't have a roundness about them that I'm used to seeing in work from people like Graham or Andre or Frank (or... or.... or... on here). But I'll agree totally with you in that there's a lot of good canon stuff out there... some of it quite "dimensional".
Anywho... at web res it's often hard to tell (for me) anyway.
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James,
I understand that your post is not (only) aimed at Sinar. And I also do not wish to answer it point by point, only those I know for (almost) sure and which are:
3. I believe it does not need any special graphic card
4. yes, the Sinarback eSprit 65 has the ability to shoot RAWs and DNGs, EVEN MORE: it can ALSO shoot DNGs and JPGs (informed already)
5. "User" settings can be set in the back (informed already as well)
6. No on-line activation was ever necessary with a Sinar software: no license needed (this is something I hate too, as you James!)
7. the FW upgrade comes from the CF card. I believe that going back to a previous version is possible (at least it was so with the previous generation of Sinarbacks)
8. I have honestly no experience with C1 and little with the EOS system (shame on me)
9. It (usually) is less than 1 minute to re-start the software: But I believe that somebody will certainly prove me wrong. At least I never had myself a "troubleshooting" session of 10/15 minutes, with MY MBP.
10. rename on the fly: not sure what you mean exactly. It is possible to create a session or re-name afterwards.
Now for the rest (and understand 1. and 2. to be ironical):
1. there are a hundred reasons not to buy (any product). I am just naming 2 of it jumping up in my mind:
- In less than 2 years from now there will only be one MF company left, according to "gwhitf". May be we have here a new Nostradamus, who knows. I cannot predict this, and even if, Nostradamus has never been proven right, respectively anything proving him to be right on one issue can be proven wrong the same way. So don't ask me this question. And no "gwhitf", we don't think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone, and believe we have proven it.
- Our new camera system is not a proven system and not running for more than x years. Though we have nearly 16 years of digital experience.
2. I cannot answer your other questions, simply because I don't know the answers, and because my answers will most certainly call for new questions. Some more questions to be asked, e.g.:
- will the system run tethered flawlessly while shooting a production and they are power-cuts or voltage shortage due to a thunderstorm or other reasons?
- will you particular Mac/PC configuration not create any problem while shooting tethered, due to some un-known conflict?
- will you be the lucky one who gets a battery that lasts for the 2000 claimed shots, or will you be the one who sees his battery running off after 10 minutes of shooting?
- will there ever be any corrupt file(s) on your CF card?
- etc ...
and when all these question shall be answered and satisfying for you, the next question is/will be "when can I order/buy/have it delivered": also a question I can't answer, since it depends on the orders and production numbers (I don't need to say that we don't have production facilities and numbers like Nikan or Canik). If somebody is interested in having a demo or ordering a new product, the best to do is to contact the distributor: most of them are helpful in a trusty and honest way.
As said, there are many reasons to find and questions to ask when wishing to invest (or not) in a new system. You have named most of them, even more, repeated them at will, so that I know them by heart now. Most of them are valid reasons, some of them I don't understand. I doubt any Nikan or Canik can give you the assurance and security and answer all your questions positively (yes I know, they cost a lot less). What I know is that there are (Sinar and other) users which are happy and do work without any major problem, since many years, with their MF system and digital back.
Best regards,
Thierry
I could/should have added to this but it was late.
1. Does tethering work up to 30' without a powerered firewire repeater?
2. Does the camera/back self power in tethering, i.e. for problematic mac's with limited firewire power or working pc.
3. Does the software require special graphics cards, i.e. will it work with a macbook pro, 24" I-mac, etc.
4. Does the back have the ability to shoot jpgs or raw/jpegs to the cf card simutaneuously when tethering.
5. Can you set color, tone, (your film look in the software) and then embed that into the back for non tethered shooting, so if you go from tethering to portable you have the same look?
6. Does the software require online activation (God I hate this as I own a lot of computers, including backup, but NEVER run the software more than on two computers at once, so with Phase I own two liscenses).
7. Does the firmware upgrades come from the software or the firmware and if so, if a firmware upgrade has a glitch, i.e. bad green color previews, lines in the frame, half black frames, centerfold, wonky grey balance settings (I've seen em all) can you go back to a previous version so you can keep working?
8. Are the previews in the software smooth and film like or hard and crunchy, think C-1 3.78 for the hard and crunch, think EOS utility for nice and smooth and film like.
9. Does the software retstart quickly. If the firewire cord is pulled out during working is it a 1 minute restart of software or a 10, 15 minute troubleshooting session of restarting computers, drives, etc.
10. Can you rename on the fly?
Now this and the other list is off the top of my head and this comes from experience of having everything happen as above and how to work around it.
The thing is the Phase and C-1 do most of the good things I've mentioned and a few of the bad, (the previews and sometimes some firewire issues), though at least the back powers itself.
I would suggest strongly that your new camera/back has previews still in the back for review or at least hold the last frame until you start shooting again, so the photogrpaher doesn't have to run over to the computer station to check the last frame.
Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000. I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.
This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format. NO more excuses. Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent. If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them. Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy. Also paint it black.
No more excuses.
JR
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Thierry,
I am not going to comment in public on whose margins these are. But since you say you do not recognize them, one wonders where Sinar's profit is located as their prices are not known as particularly low, compared to the competition....
I cannot speak for Leaf, only for what I know, Sinar matters and prices in this case. I wonder too.
I don't think that recent Sinar prices (understand since a few years now and for digital equipment) are over or much over others. In fact, and recent published prices by myself prove it, it is quite the contrary.
The online Sinar shop in Germany is a nice thing, but seeing the prices it looks as if I can now get the same stuff without "added value" for the same price that an "added value" version costs. I don't care so much about having an online store as well as not having to pay a premium for something I do not need. Wasn't that clear from my reasoning?
I would have to check the prices in detail, which I didn't, to compare and comment. But warranty and support are still the same, I believe. This online shop is meant to simplify ordering/buying etc ..., not to cut our prices and with it our support and warranty. I don't see this as "added value", but rather as "contractual value", whatever way one does the purchase.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Hmmm guess I would seem the odd man out if I said i actually liked my system. Only real issue I have is some shutter lag that bugs me sometimes. But If i had to start over again and let's say the Leica S2 was out and running trouble free and all there ducks are lined up nicely. It would actually fit me better for a good percentage of work. So i would get that system but I still would want a P45 plus or my current back a P25 plus and a Cambo WRS-1000 and several nice lenses. Not that i don't like my current system i do but the S2 would be faster in several ways and would fit better for certain gigs. I won't comment on other systems I don't have since i had good reasons not to get them in the first place.
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Hmmm guess I would seem the odd man out if I said i actually liked my system. Only real issue I have is some shutter lag that bugs me sometimes. But If i had to start over again and let's say the Leica S2 was out and running trouble free and all there ducks are lined up nicely. It would actually fit me better for a good percentage of work. So i would get that system but I still would want a P45 plus or my current back a P25 plus and a Cambo WRS-1000 and several nice lenses. Not that i don't like my current system i do but the S2 would be faster in several ways and would fit better for certain gigs. I won't comment on other systems I don't have since i had good reasons not to get them in the first place.
I don't think this is about if your happy with what you presently have. I'm fine with what I use and it's paid for, allows me to make money, etc. etc.
I think this comes down to would you not only do it again, (at new prices) but even more important did anything form annoucekina make you reach into your wallet and write the check if you could buy it today?
The last one is difficult to judge because from annoucement to shelf is usually a long time and usually comes with a few notes, like waiting for lenses, or something that affects the usability.
I am very curious about who will buy 50 and 60mpx backs at the current prices. In today's business climate the increase in prices doesn't seem to make sense, but maybe the time these cameras really come to market we will be into the next dotcom boom, or something like that and money will be flowing again.
And this also really shouldn't be about comparing medium format to 35mm, (though I am somewhat at a loss to understand what medium format is anymore), I guess in the eyes of most medium format means something large than 24x36mm.
Regardless, when it comes to producing art for commerce, (and I include fine art and editorial in this) I think to some extent it is about the comparision of 35mm to larger formats.
I'll admit, I like cameras and have bought a lot of them, but if I was 100% honest with myself I know that I could have just continued on with my original 1ds Canons and not really changed anything for the majority of what I am paid to shoot.
Now with the 1ds3, I will also admit that I use medium format less and less and it is not from a cost standpoint, it's just that it allows me to do more with one system, with a lot less hassel.
JR
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I am a bit troubled here reading my colleges posts about 5dII on order. Four here, two there etc. For a God sake this is still 5D. It is not a solution nor wholly grail of photography. Two months down the road you guys will be dumping them on eBay. Everybody around you is going to own one. There is a lot of ways to save money on equipment. Light is just a light so if you know how to use it the cheapest brand will do.
When I go to car mechanic I do not care if he uses Craftsmen tools or cheap knockoffs as long as he manages to tighten the screws. But you know what? He does.
I have spent hundreds of hours trying to convince myself that DSLR are good enough. I tried Canons with the best Leica glass, every possible option went through my hands. If I still carry big, heavy and old Rz with A75s it is because there is a reason. The reason is not to impress anybody, the reason is not to get paid more or land more jobs, the reason is not because clients appreciate the difference. The reason is very simple - I love and I am proud of what I do and I want to make the best images I am capable to make. If this was just a job than 5D would be just perfect. But if this was just a job I would not be writing about it right now.
If I had to do it again I would hire someone to give me a Leaf DB with full frame Rz sensor. I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
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honestly speaking, I was thinking that we should close this "MF" section. But there is at least one left!
Oh I know, it's probably because I spoke about a special Rolleiflex (sorry," Rollei") edition for you!
Best regards,
Thierry
I am a bit troubled here reading my colleges posts about 5dII on order. Four here, two there etc. For a God sake this is still 5D. It is not a solution nor wholly grail of photography. Two months down the road you guys will be dumping them on eBay. Everybody around you is going to own one. There is a lot of ways to save money on equipment. Light is just a light so if you know how to use it the cheapest brand will do.
When I go to car mechanic I do not care if he uses Craftsmen tools or cheap knockoffs as long as he manages to tighten the screws. But you know what? He does.
I have spent hundreds of hours trying to convince myself that DSLR are good enough. I tried Canons with the best Leica glass, every possible option went through my hands. If I still carry big, heavy and old Rz with A75s it is because there is a reason. The reason is not to impress anybody, the reason is not to get paid more or land more jobs, the reason is not because clients appreciate the difference. The reason is very simple - I love and I am proud of what I do and I want to make the best images I am capable to make. If this was just a job than 5D would be just perfect. But if this was just a job I would not be writing about it right now.
If I had to do it again I would hire someone to give me a Leaf DB with full frame Rz sensor. I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
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I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
Hahahaha....
I totally agree with everything you say but this really makes me smile. Having seen your wife I am sure nobody will mind to be entertained and distracted by her (if they weren't already). I was just thinking pretty much the same things when I was reading all previous posts.
Too many people react too clinical I believe. Personally I am very happy with my H and HC lenses. The equipment has never let me down besides 1 time which is the first in 6 years. On the other hand my Nikon hasn't let me down in the last 15years. I use the back as much as I can even when I could be using the Nikon. I guess in 50% of the cases I could have been using the Nikon. Why use the back? Because I like doing so. I like the files and the feel of the images created by the backs, I also like working with it, the larger viewfinder, slower workpace, it simply works differently which includes all the small weird stuff or the occassional hickup.
To be frank I actually love to use my Digiflex more than my Nikon or H even if everything is manual, it has no autofocus, it has no light metering, it is heavy and a bit clumsy. For me photography is a job but where does it say I am not allowed in having fun using tools I prefer. The one tool fits all mentality might stick for many but there will always be people that see things differently...
I know a person that just lost a M8 to moisture. The factory and importer treated him pretty bad by not helping him for something that should have been warranty. He ended up buying a new one (after some heavy thinking) because he loved working with it.
I just mean to say there are many reasons why people buy or use a particular system. That it is capable of doing 95% of all jobs might be an important reason but is not the only one and might not even be the most important reason.
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I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
Hahahaha....
I totally agree with everything you say but this really makes me smile. Having seen your wife I am sure nobody will mind to be entertained and distracted by her (if they weren't already). I was just thinking pretty much the same things when I was reading all previous posts.
Too many people react too clinical I believe. Personally I am very happy with my H and HC lenses. The equipment has never let me down besides 1 time which is the first in 6 years of using MFDB. On the other hand my Nikon hasn't let me down in the last 15years. I use the back as much as I can even when I could be using the Nikon. I guess in 50% of the cases I could have been using the Nikon. Why use the back? Because I like doing so. I like the files and the feel of the images created by the backs, I also like working with it, the larger viewfinder, slower workpace, it simply works differently which includes all the small weird stuff or the occassional hickup.
To be frank I actually love to use my Digiflex more in use than my Nikon or H even if everything is manual, it has no autofocus, it has no light metering, it is heavy and a bit clumsy. For me photography is a job but where does it say I am not allowed in having fun using tools I prefer.
I know a person that just lost a M8 to moisture. The factory and importer treated him pretty bad by not helping him for something that should have been warranty. He ended up buying a new one (after some heavy thinking) because he loved working with it.
I just mean to say there are many reasons why people buy or use a particular system. That it is capable of doing 95% of all jobs might be an important reason but is not the only one and might not even be the most important reason. I don't believe in the 'one tool fits all' mentality...
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Edmund,
As for the drink, I do not want to sound rude or not polite, and leave it to your judgment.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I think you still owe me a drink - I'm sure alcohol can be found in Patpong, the next time I visit your adopted home country
Edmund
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if you make it in time before I have left Thailand!
Thierry
Thierry,
I think you still owe me a drink - I'm sure alcohol can be found in Patpong, the next time I visit your adopted home country
Edmund
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I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
I think they've got nothing noticed ...
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I want to say only one thing:
Camera is only your tool. Professional photographer need sometimes different tools to get what he want.
Sometimes we need to shoot with Nikon D3, sometimes with view camera 8"x10", sometimes we need Digital MF.
It's depending from your job. We must use tool that deliver us exactly what we need.
Nobody can said me that Canon 5D Mark II is supreme camera, it could be in specific situation. But never win in "specyfic situation" with Digital MF.
Dynamic range, colors, details - in Digital MF cameras is light years far from 35mm DSLR.
Freak
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For me Photokina was the tipping point. I tried and loved the Hy6, but couldn't get my head around the price with a 54 or 75 Lv. With the 65 price and improvements such as the screen and integration, I'm going to buy one if a demo goes well.
Image quality is one consideration, but way of working is as important. WLF, big bright viewfinder, big image to crop, slowing down, etc., are equally important.
Best,
Mitchell
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I don't think this is about if your happy with what you presently have. I'm fine with what I use and it's paid for, allows me to make money, etc. etc.
I think this comes down to would you not only do it again, (at new prices) but even more important did anything form annoucekina make you reach into your wallet and write the check if you could buy it today?
The last one is difficult to judge because from annoucement to shelf is usually a long time and usually comes with a few notes, like waiting for lenses, or something that affects the usability.
I am very curious about who will buy 50 and 60mpx backs at the current prices. In today's business climate the increase in prices doesn't seem to make sense, but maybe the time these cameras really come to market we will be into the next dotcom boom, or something like that and money will be flowing again.
And this also really shouldn't be about comparing medium format to 35mm, (though I am somewhat at a loss to understand what medium format is anymore), I guess in the eyes of most medium format means something large than 24x36mm.
Regardless, when it comes to producing art for commerce, (and I include fine art and editorial in this) I think to some extent it is about the comparision of 35mm to larger formats.
I'll admit, I like cameras and have bought a lot of them, but if I was 100% honest with myself I know that I could have just continued on with my original 1ds Canons and not really changed anything for the majority of what I am paid to shoot.
Now with the 1ds3, I will also admit that I use medium format less and less and it is not from a cost standpoint, it's just that it allows me to do more with one system, with a lot less hassel.
JR
Nothing made me jump out of my chair to go get a cashier check to buy it. Interesting mostly , more than we need i agree on some things for sure. I do know I will get the new Mamiya 45mm D lens but really the only decision firmly made. After that it's a will see it in action first.
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I truly would like to hear from a late-model Hasselblad user, to see if the most recent Phocus software actually will not run on an Apple laptop. That, to me, is just mindboggling -- to be forced to drag around a tower on location, if you bought Hasselblad and needed to tether.
Is there anyone out there shooting high-volume location work that uses the Phocus software on a 17" MacBook Pro?
This one thing is an absolute dealbreaker for Hasselblad, if true.
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That doesn't sound right, gw.
Unless something has changed, Phocus has always been demonstrated to me on a MacBookPro
during the past half year or so.
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That doesn't sound right, gw.
Unless something has changed, Phocus has always been demonstrated to me on a MacBookPro
during the past half year or so.
The rumor is that it's simply too clunky to EFFICIENTLY run on a MBP. It might actually run, technically, but I've heard comments that you wouldn't want to process an actual job on it.
That's why I'm trying to find a heavy duty Phocus user.
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Yet they think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone.
A bit too simplified maybe...
I don't think the main target of the P65+ was to achieve 60MP. I think the target was fullframe (whatever FF means, okay).
Then, probably with regard to some improvements in moirée, they reduced pixel size from 6.8 to 6.0 mircons. Result: 60MP.
But if you think about the binning, too, you need an overplus in resolution.
Now they do normal binning (four pixels combined to one). So with binning you get a 15MP file.
I expect that they will refine binning in further firmware updates so that you can shoot e.g. a 30MP file.
And here we are talking about an increase in ISO for the smaller file sizes.
So you have a fullframe low ISO 60MP back and a fullframe high(er) ISO 15MP and probably soon 30MP back in once.
So maybe ISO and fullframe matters to anyone?
But this is just about what the back can do... it's not about the (hefty) price of the back certainly.
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A bit too simplified maybe...
I don't think the main target of the P65+ was to achieve 60MP. I think the target was fullframe (whatever FF means, okay).
Then, probably with regard to some improvements in moirée, they reduced pixel size from 6.8 to 6.0 mircons. Result: 60MP.
But if you think about the binning, too, you need an overplus in resolution.
Now they do normal binning (four pixels combined to one). So with binning you get a 15MP file.
I expect that they will refine binning in further firmware updates so that you can shoot e.g. a 30MP file.
And here we are talking about an increase in ISO for the smaller file sizes.
So you have a fullframe low ISO 60MP back and a fullframe high(er) ISO 15MP and probably soon 30MP back in once.
So maybe ISO and fullframe matters to anyone?
But this is just about what the back can do... it's not about the (hefty) price of the back certainly.
I owned a p45+. Trust me, yes, it's not full frame, but the amount of real estate loss with the mask was very tiny. FF, in effect, if you squinted.
I can't imagine anyone could justify the price difference between a used mint p45 non plus, compared to a p65+, when you made two 30x40s and put them side by side on a wall. Maybe if they'd improved the LCD on the p65 you could make an argument, but as we all know...
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I truly would like to hear from a late-model Hasselblad user, to see if the most recent Phocus software actually will not run on an Apple laptop. That, to me, is just mindboggling -- to be forced to drag around a tower on location, if you bought Hasselblad and needed to tether.
Is there anyone out there shooting high-volume location work that uses the Phocus software on a 17" MacBook Pro?
This one thing is an absolute dealbreaker for Hasselblad, if true.
It is not true. I am working on MBP with Phocus. Everything is ok. Of course I prefer to work with MacPro with two displays, because it's more comfortable. And exporting to tiff is much much faster. But in many cases MBP run better/faster that MacPro. MacPro will work faster if you have GF8800. On basic graphic card performance is not so good right now. New Phocus 1.1 is more stable and in my opinion faster.
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I owned a p45+. Trust me, yes, it's not full frame, but the amount of real estate loss with the mask was very tiny. FF, in effect, if you squinted.
Yes, you are right. I use the P45 (non plus). Me personally I don't think that I could profit very much of fullframe as I doubt my lenses will hold edge sharpness on fullframe with 6.0 microns pixel except if stopped down to f11 or even f16 (Contax Lenses... well, the 4/120macro probably still will be perfect on fullframe). These are good lenses but I think the 1.1 crop finally helps... And as I don't know any reason why I should buy another MF-System within the next years I don't care that much about the P65+. Actually the best thing about the P65+ - for me - is that prices for the refurbished backs will go down. But too I think that this is just my personal standpoint and that others maybe like fullframe and improved ISO.
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Strange as it may sound I like the extra viewing in the finder around the P25 and P45 Grid lines in the finder. Nice to know what is out there.
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I truly would like to hear from a late-model Hasselblad user, to see if the most recent Phocus software actually will not run on an Apple laptop. That, to me, is just mindboggling -- to be forced to drag around a tower on location, if you bought Hasselblad and needed to tether.
Is there anyone out there shooting high-volume location work that uses the Phocus software on a 17" MacBook Pro?
This one thing is an absolute dealbreaker for Hasselblad, if true.
I use Phocus on a 2 year old Macbookpro15. It runs pretty well however I prefer Flexcolor for several reasons. My backs are CF39 & 384 (next week this would be CF39 & CF39MS). I shoot anything in between 100 & 300 images per day (after selection so these need to be processed).
My main problem is keeping enough diskspace which is the prime reason I had to delete the Windows partition on the MBP.
I process to DNG's first and let Photoshop and the image processor handle from there. I find both Flexcolor as well as Phocus too slow to process, especially on a laptop. It would be different when I get my MacPro (13 seconds which some people claim to get is very acceptable). Converting a couple of 100 FFF's towards DNG takes less than about halve an hour. You miss DAC when you go the DNG route but is you know what you are doing in PS the quality is excellent.
Processing my Leaf A17 files on the MBP via Leaf Capture I found to be just as slow. Slowness is not a Hasselblad exclusive. I would not process files from either back with their dedicated raw converter if I have to do several hundred of images on my MBP.
Support for Leaf files is excellent in PS. It is unfortunate that Hasselblad files cannot be read natively by PS (with DAC) but converting to DNG's is extremely fast.
It is amazing how much faster and with how much more control (especially when using actions) you can process raw files via the Bridge compared to most 'native raw converters'. I find it unbelievable none of the brands have an option to invoke actions when processing their files next to being slow.
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I dunno about the Hy6... I have a friend who has one, and invariably when we are in lower levels of light like dusk or dawn landscape, or even indoors in normal light, his AF will invariably go into continuous hunt mode and not be able to lock. Don't get me wrong, *love* the build-quality and I would love to have a WLF and rotatable back option, but I think I'd wait for a version 2 body with updated AF before investing in that system.
just my .02...
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I process to DNG's first and let Photoshop and the image processor handle from there. I find both Flexcolor as well as Phocus too slow to process, especially on a laptop. It would be different when I get my MacPro (13 seconds which some people claim to get is very acceptable). Converting a couple of 100 FFF's towards DNG takes less than about halve an hour. You miss DAC when you go the DNG route but is you know what you are doing in PS the quality is excellent.
So, in the real world, if you shot a job on Monday, and you came home on Monday night, and the client wanted to see Web Galleries of the job on Tuesday, what exactly is the workflow?
You have to take what you shot, tweak the RAWs to your color taste, and then batch everything from this native format to DNG first?
And then, you take all those DNGs and then you batch everything to JPG for web galleries to show the client?
There is no way to simply make a web gallery from the RAW files?
Thank you.
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So, in the real world, if you shot a job on Monday, and you came home on Monday night, and the client wanted to see Web Galleries of the job on Tuesday, what exactly is the workflow?
You have to take what you shot, tweak the RAWs to your color taste, and then batch everything from this native format to DNG first?
And then, you take all those DNGs and then you batch everything to JPG for web galleries to show the client?
There is no way to simply make a web gallery from the RAW files?
Thank you.
I don't know anything about Phocus or how long it takes, but if a file won't work natively in most of the processors then I don't want to know about it.
Also how are you going to store. Some people may throw the native files away and keep the dngs, but can the hasselblad dng files be backwards converted to the Hasselblad format.
I'd probably never throw away the orignal format files because convertors change, things get better (hopefully) and that means you end up with double the files, double the storage.
I also routinely ship processed files with an attached raw to a retoucher. Converting one or two to DNG is not issue but dozens, hundreds, then it's just another step regardless of how fast and easy.
As far as how Phocus runs on computers, it seems it's very video card dependent and maybe that works will all computers, but unless I can use it on a 24" imac and a macbook pro, that pretty much rules it out for location. I'll never drag a desktop computer around the world to use software for tethering.
I don't understand this process of different file formats depending on whether you shoot tethered or to cf cards, I don't understand extra steps of compression to work in 3rd party converters.
If Phase has one great advantage it's the file now seems to work in anything regardless of the compression. That's a great benefit, but knowing medium format as I write this someone is probably thinking up a way to make it more complicated.
I like the idea of the Sinar all dng workflow, but does this cover the complete range of Sinar and new Sinar/Leaf (Leaner) backs, or will it just be to the 31mpx product?
You really need a schematic to follow medium format.
JR
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So, in the real world, if you shot a job on Monday, and you came home on Monday night, and the client wanted to see Web Galleries of the job on Tuesday, what exactly is the workflow?
You have to take what you shot, tweak the RAWs to your color taste, and then batch everything from this native format to DNG first?
And then, you take all those DNGs and then you batch everything to JPG for web galleries to show the client?
There is no way to simply make a web gallery from the RAW files?
Thank you.
There apparently is a quick way to generate small jpg's. I have never used it so cannot tell you about that but have seen people using flex & phocus advice it each other.
I routinely come home monday night (really monday night actually) with 250 images that needs to be on my FTP before the studio starts Tuesday at 9. In most cases I let my MBP convert the FFF files to DNG's immediately after the shoot. Since nothing happens color wise or processing wise when converting from FFF to DNG it is of no use doing that in either Flexcolor or Phocus. I don't do anything but tell Phocus/Flexcolor save as DNG. When the MBP is converting I am packing all my stuff. In most cases the conversion process is done by the time I have packed everything. I pack my MBP as last anyway because it is also running my music
When I come home I open up the Bridge and open the DNG's in ACR. I do most color correcting, cropping, etc.. in ACR. I close the files (I do about 30 at a time). I run the image processor, select an appropriate action and run the processor toward the desired file. In the processor I mostly process directly to PSD because many files need some manual labor as well. After that I process the PSD files towards JPG.
If I need low res web gallery images I would process to sRGB and downsize significantly.
My policy is to automate as far as possible and do only the really necessary things by hand.
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So, in the real world, if you shot a job on Monday, and you came home on Monday night, and the client wanted to see Web Galleries of the job on Tuesday, what exactly is the workflow?
You have to take what you shot, tweak the RAWs to your color taste, and then batch everything from this native format to DNG first?
And then, you take all those DNGs and then you batch everything to JPG for web galleries to show the client?
There is no way to simply make a web gallery from the RAW files?
Thank you.
My workflow would be to convert FFF to DNG (usually due this while cleaning up the studio, or in transit back to the studio) import to LR, then tweak and sync settings then export a gallery. I don't use Phocus, it's hocus-pocus, and I find flex to be a slow workflow for me. I can hammer through work in LR much faster even w/ the time to convert to DNG. That said, I'd love in camera DNG, dream come true, but not for $30k and $7k lenses, thx but no thx. After things get hit in post, you can't tell wether it was Mam glass, Mam "D" class, canon, hassie H or V or whatever. the only thing I see a real difference in is say a schneider digitar on a 2x3 or 4x5 w/ a DB.
Is their any software that will take a RAW file and make a web gallery from it? ie C1, Leaf, Phocus, etc, etc?
I think James + co. have a point - needs to compete w/ Canon/Nikon for ease of use, etc, especially for the crazy prices
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@ Dustbak - in flex you can bump out a small preview file (under 1k) and then use that to build a web gallery, but still needs to go thru some processing to get there
in reality - all the companies should make their raw formats easily DNG compatible - then you have a choice to use DAC like corrections in your manufacturer's proprietary software or use LR , ACR, but it'd be up to us. the only time DAC has really done much for me is w/ the HCD28 - it took a some distortion out, but I could have done it in PS as well.
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I don't use Phocus, it's hocus-pocus, and I find flex to be a slow workflow for me.
Is there a slightly more technical description of hocus pocus, and how that funkiness shows up for you when you're using it?
Everything that I hear about Hasselblad workflow just turns my stomach. Step 1, then batch to Step 2, etc.
Sounds like lots of jumping thru hoops to me, and for what gain...?
Thanks for responses.
As far as Mr Russell's schematic idea, I have been thinking to start a shared Google Document, and have everyone contribute to it -- all the models from all the brands. There are so many variations right now that my eyes just glaze over; I can't keep them straight.
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Apple's Aperture supposedly support Hasselblad 3FR & FFF file formats,
so couldn't that be a solution for quick galleries?
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.
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I process files directly from Phocus. In my opinion, quality is better that export files to DNG and then open it in Lightroom. Lightroom has not the best raw converter. Same Aperture. Probably Phase users use C1 to process the files and get better quality...
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Is their any software that will take a RAW file and make a web gallery from it? ie C1, Leaf, Phocus, etc, etc?
C1 yes.
Probably Phase users use C1 to process the files and get better quality...
Fast in fast out differences (IQ wise) are not that big. If you look exacting to the files C1 is better (more detailed) in dark tonal values and subtler over all. And colors... matter of taste... but I hate the midtone accentuated digital default look in ACR/LR...
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I process files directly from Phocus. In my opinion, quality is better that export files to DNG and then open it in Lightroom. Lightroom has not the best raw converter. Same Aperture. Probably Phase users use C1 to process the files and get better quality...
For general work, c-1 3.78 is good and stable and processes fast.
V4 processes lighting fast and has better skin tones, though the pro version is not out yet.
For oh my god, building your own film the very best is Raw Developer. Download the new one and you can correct your color channels to make your own film, and not light lightroom where your chaning the orange, but actually chaning the lookof each rgb channel with click stops.
RD is not elegant and not easy to batch out a lot of small jpegs, but for those special images it's amazing.
It's noise reduction for the phase files is also superior to anything I've used, blows away V4 and lightroom.
JR
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For oh my god, building your own film the very best is Raw Developer.
Interesting! I do like the Color Editor in C1 a lot as I like to work with ICC profiles for different looks. But just because I'm used to...
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Is their any software that will take a RAW file and make a web gallery from it? ie C1, Leaf, Phocus, etc, etc?
I think you can do this in iView Media Pro.......
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Is there a slightly more technical description of hocus pocus, and how that funkiness shows up for you when you're using it?
Everything that I hear about Hasselblad workflow just turns my stomach. Step 1, then batch to Step 2, etc.
Sounds like lots of jumping thru hoops to me, and for what gain...?
Phocus was supposed to be a Hasselblad LR - they even snagged some adobe developers. it's clunky, flakey (freeze, crashes), slow IMHO. plus you have to do upgrades to a MacPro (ie more RAM, new vid card), it wont run on a macbook (LR runs fine!!) and I have yet to see it in person running on a MacBook Pro smoothly. it feels significantly less robust than Flex. Flex is decent, you just have to know it well to be fast. I do agree, it's jumping thru a lot of hoops. I wish you could just import+convert 3FR straight into LR - that would be killer.
ALSO - do we have the ISO bump in Phocus 1.1? I think that was a selling point for a lot of people...
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For oh my god, building your own film the very best is Raw Developer.
Download the new one and you can correct your color channels to make your own film,
and not light lightroom where your chaning the orange,
but actually chaning the lookof each rgb channel with click stops.
RD is not elegant and not easy to batch out a lot of small jpegs, but for those special images it's amazing.
It's noise reduction for the phase files is also superior to anything I've used, blows away V4 and lightroom.
Even supports Hasselblad and Sinar files:
http://iridientdigital.com/products/rawdev...er_cameras.html (http://iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper_cameras.html)
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Ah.... it seems RD finally supports FFF files again! That would be a nice addition. I loved RD for my Leaf files.
I totally agree with the fact the 3FR, FFF, DNG path from Hasselblad creates confusion but can tell in practice it is not such a big deal. Having said that it would make life much easier if you could have 3FR (either compressed or uncompressed) and have it read in more than 1 converter (especially ACR, eg. LR & PS). With the complete DAC functionality please!
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I like the idea of the Sinar all dng workflow, but does this cover the complete range of Sinar and new Sinar/Leaf (Leaner) backs, or will it just be to the 31mpx product?
Processing DNG files in the back itself is unique to the Sinar 65, but any Sinar back which is shooting tethered with Exposure software will save each image in DNG format as you shoot. At the end of the shoot you therefore already have a folder of DNGs and can process them in any number of ways according to preference. For example, I import the folder of DNGs straight into Lightroom and have a nice web gallery generated pretty quickly without converting anything first.
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RD is not elegant and not easy to batch out a lot of small jpegs, but for those special images it's amazing.
Interesting, you make me want to try it.
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From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.
Why so? It seems that almost everyone who gets into the M645 is lured in by the cheap used bodies and a few cheap used lenses. I can't remember anyone ever selecting the M due to the optics coming out on top in a group test, or build quality, ergonomics, finder options, etc. The new bodies are not cheap at all, neither are the used lenses so once the initial party on the used market is over, you're stuck with the most compromised system (imo). Not surprising therefore that this doesn't make many wishlists and the poll backs that up. (No offence intended to any M645 owners!)
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So, in the real world, if you shot a job on Monday, and you came home on Monday night, and the client wanted to see Web Galleries of the job on Tuesday, what exactly is the workflow?
You have to take what you shot, tweak the RAWs to your color taste, and then batch everything from this native format to DNG first?
And then, you take all those DNGs and then you batch everything to JPG for web galleries to show the client?
There is no way to simply make a web gallery from the RAW files?
Thank you.
Here's what you do. Tweak your RAWS.
Select all, hit save, and from the output presets choose "JPG Fast preview"
I just tested it on a folder of 720 images. Phocus exported the preview files in 82 seconds.
Each preview is 1082X812px (from a 31MP back) and each preview exactly matches whatever tweaks were made to the raw file.
How's that?
Nick-T
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Here's what you do. Tweak your RAWS.
Select all, hit save, and from the output presets choose "JPG Fast preview"
I just tested it on a folder of 720 images. Phocus exported the preview files in 82 seconds.
Each preview is 1082X812px (from a 31MP back) and each preview exactly matches whatever tweaks were made to the raw file.
How's that?
Nick-T
That'll work. After that you can have your machine process the files at its own pace. Maybe nice to share what machine you used? (I guess your 8-core MacPro).
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Here's what you do. Tweak your RAWS.
Select all, hit save, and from the output presets choose "JPG Fast preview"
I just tested it on a folder of 720 images. Phocus exported the preview files in 82 seconds.
Each preview is 1082X812px (from a 31MP back) and each preview exactly matches whatever tweaks were made to the raw file.
How's that?
Nick-T
That's pretty good, Nick. So this is similar to PreviewConverter, that was inside of CaptureOne 3.78? It would blow thru them quickly too.
What happens if the client also wants FPO files too? I usually create FPOs at about 150dpi at about 9x12 inches. What would the workflow be then?
And do you have any idea why people report sluggishness with Phocus? Do YOU think it would run on a MacBookPro?
Thanks.
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I am a bit troubled here reading my colleges posts about 5dII on order. Four here, two there etc. For a God sake this is still 5D. It is not a solution nor wholly grail of photography. Two months down the road you guys will be dumping them on eBay. Everybody around you is going to own one. There is a lot of ways to save money on equipment. Light is just a light so if you know how to use it the cheapest brand will do.
When I go to car mechanic I do not care if he uses Craftsmen tools or cheap knockoffs as long as he manages to tighten the screws. But you know what? He does.
I have spent hundreds of hours trying to convince myself that DSLR are good enough. I tried Canons with the best Leica glass, every possible option went through my hands. If I still carry big, heavy and old Rz with A75s it is because there is a reason. The reason is not to impress anybody, the reason is not to get paid more or land more jobs, the reason is not because clients appreciate the difference. The reason is very simple - I love and I am proud of what I do and I want to make the best images I am capable to make. If this was just a job than 5D would be just perfect. But if this was just a job I would not be writing about it right now.
If I had to do it again I would hire someone to give me a Leaf DB with full frame Rz sensor. I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
I wanna be like Andre when I grow up
Actually, I just started a thread on another "pro" forum speaking about MF and all the buzz... and how, for someone like me, it's exciting to see a glimmer of hope that it will be a tad more accessible monetarily. I swear I CAN see the difference between the 5D's and company.
Was there any interest in the thread. Nope.
If I had it all to do over again... I'd have started with a Rollei 6008 (maybe an RZ) and an Aptus of sorts ... but, I started with a 5D
Oh well.
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That's pretty good, Nick. So this is similar to PreviewConverter, that was inside of CaptureOne 3.78? It would blow thru them quickly too.
What happens if the client also wants FPO files too? I usually create FPOs at about 150dpi at about 9x12 inches. What would the workflow be then?
And do you have any idea why people report sluggishness with Phocus? Do YOU think it would run on a MacBookPro?
Thanks.
I'm running a test right now on my MBP - stock - 2.3 with 2GB of RAM and it's processing my 39MP files to 9x12 jpegs at 300dpi at the rate of 1 per minute. And it's using ALL the resources to do it. However, the computer would be faster with more RAM, faster HD, etc... It's somewhat sluggish, but not too bad...
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That'll work. After that you can have your machine process the files at its own pace. Maybe nice to share what machine you used? (I guess your 8-core MacPro).
Yep on the 8 core, should be much the same speed on a laptop as the previews are embedded.
That's pretty good, Nick. So this is similar to PreviewConverter, that was inside of CaptureOne 3.78? It would blow thru them quickly too.
What happens if the client also wants FPO files too? I usually create FPOs at about 150dpi at about 9x12 inches. What would the workflow be then?
And do you have any idea why people report sluggishness with Phocus? Do YOU think it would run on a MacBookPro?
Thanks.
I'm not a C1 user so can't answer your first.
For FPO you are going to have to process the RAWS no doubt about it. I created a preset ( 150 ppi fit image height 30cm) and it took 9 seconds to process on the 8 core (again 31 MP files).
Phocus runs fine on a Macbookpro in my experience though processing times will be slower (a mate reports 40 secs for a 39MP on his current Macbookpro).
Nick-T
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I wanna be like Andre when I grow up
Actually, I just started a thread on another "pro" forum speaking about MF and all the buzz... and how, for someone like me, it's exciting to see a glimmer of hope that it will be a tad more accessible monetarily. I swear I CAN see the difference between the 5D's and company.
Was there any interest in the thread. Nope.
If I had it all to do over again... I'd have started with a Rollei 6008 (maybe an RZ) and an Aptus of sorts ... but, I started with a 5D
Oh well.
I don 't now what you shoot, or where you want your career to go, but it your starting out, or moving up stream your better off investing in what goes on in front of the lens, i.e. props, stylists, talent, locations, etc. than you are spending an extra $20,000 to $35,000 on the camera.
In fact better retouching, (I mean really, really good retouching) is the great equalizer when it comes to the look.
If you want a Rollei, buy it,like it, use it, enjoy it, but don't think it's going to change your career anywhere close to what I just mentioned.
JR
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I don 't now what you shoot, or where you want your career to go, but it your starting out, or moving up stream your better off investing in what goes on in front of the lens, i.e. props, stylists, talent, locations, etc. than you are spending an extra $20,000 to $35,000 on the camera.
In fact better retouching, (I mean really, really good retouching) is the great equalizer when it comes to the look.
If you want a Rollei, buy it,like it, use it, enjoy it, but don't think it's going to change your career anywhere close to what I just mentioned.
JR
James... glad you know what's best for me (actually I do appreciate your insights, just giving you a hard time)
I'm a generalist... but slowly becoming a specialist on the "people" side of the biz. However, I am trained as an architect (and musician!), so I'm in a bit of an identity crisis presently. I'm also only a 3/4-time professional ( I spend 3-4 hours in a design office every morning).
As much as stylists and all, just having the time to pound the pavement would be beneficial... but I'm late to the game and the economy means I'll probably be a part-timer for a while. For me, it's about the slower work process. We're all a bit different here... and my years as a musician trained me to be able to make good decisions on the fly, but over and over again my best work surfaces when I'm slower, more deliberate, and focused.
My post was more about my artistic bent than it was about running a successful biz as a fashion shooter.
Thus the rollei reference. I've blown through WAY too much digital "film" with all the convenience my canons have brought me.
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the only time DAC has really done much for me is w/ the HCD28 - it took a some distortion out, but I could have done it in PS as well.
Hi Jim
Got to disagree with you here (having spent 6 days showing people DAC corrections at Photokina).
First off you CANNOT duplicate DAC corrections elsewhere, sure you can emulate them but the corrections will not be any where near as accurate. DAC corrections are unique in that they use data passed back from the camera to perform accurate corrections, quite different from adjusting a slider 'til it "looks" right.
The distortion corrections are complex enough with a fixed lens, with the HTS they are really complex, I'd defy anyone to fix tilt induced distortion in PS easily.
Don't forget DAC also removes vignetting (should you wish to) and chromatic aberration. Again you could fix this in PS but why would you (especially if you have 100 images to do).
Nick-T
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The distortion corrections are complex enough with a fixed lens, with the HTS they are really complex, I'd defy anyone to fix tilt induced distortion in PS easily.
I think this is a very, very strong tool in the software. Wow!... if it works perfect. I've seen C1 V4 pro at Photokina and there is a tool to correct lens distortion. But a rudimentary tool for simple distortions. But maybe there will be an upgrade in 2018.
What I'd like to know about the corrections in the Hasselblad just for interest: does it squeeze the images and crop the edges so that you end up in a slightly smaller file or does it expand the edges so that you end up with the original resolution?
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(having spent 6 days showing people DAC corrections at Photokina).
Nick-T
Sorry Guys,
what's DAC?
Murray
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Sorry Guys,
what's DAC?
Murray
Digital Apo Correction (digital lens corrections)
We can remove: color aberration, distortion, vignetting
Phocus (http://www.hasselblad.com/products/phocus.aspx)
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SINAR BRON IMAGING REGIONAL SALES MANAGERS
Thierry,
I rolled the dice today and called MIKE FLUITT and talked to him. Honestly, there was no listed dealer for my state, so I thought it might be illegal for me to buy an Hy6 and a 65, but I risked breaking the law and called him. He's a very nice guy, and was pretty forthcoming with details. He recommended to call either Fotocare in NY, or Dodd Camera in Cleveland, for rental/demo information. I didn't proceed any further though, since the 65 back is not out yet -- to me, that's the only Sinar game in town.
But I just wanted to report back that, yes, there are humans in the United States that deal in Sinar cameras. (I was not sure).
For the record, I give you a lot of grief, but you come here into a situation with a lot of (frustrated) history in MediumFormat Land. I give you credit for staying in the hot kitchen; you hold your own very well.
Promise me this though -- promise me that you'll have this full Hy6/65 system out, tweaked, and shipping in volume before you announce another camera/back, OK? Get one thing right before you move on to the next, please. A lot of Medium Format marketing feels like a Manhattan sidewalk Shell Game -- you think you've got your solution spotted, and then it changes to the next option, and thus, you never buy anything. Always waiting for the next announced product -- and never buying anything.
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Dear gwhift (your name is so complicated!),
Thierry,
I rolled the dice today and called MIKE FLUITT and talked to him. Honestly, there was no listed dealer for my state, so I thought it might be illegal for me to buy an Hy6 and a 65, but I risked breaking the law and called him. He's a very nice guy, and was pretty forthcoming with details. He recommended to call either Fotocare in NY, or Dodd Camera in Cleveland, for rental/demo information. I didn't proceed any further though, since the 65 back is not out yet -- to me, that's the only Sinar game in town.
But I just wanted to report back that, yes, there are humans in the United States that deal in Sinar cameras. (I was not sure).
For the record, I give you a lot of grief, but you come here into a situation with a lot of (frustrated) history in MediumFormat Land. I give you credit for staying in the hot kitchen; you hold your own very well.
Well noted, thanks!
Promise me this though -- promise me that you'll have this full Hy6/65 system out, tweaked, and shipping in volume before you announce another camera/back, OK? Get one thing right before you move on to the next, please. A lot of Medium Format marketing feels like a Manhattan sidewalk Shell Game -- you think you've got your solution spotted, and then it changes to the next option, and thus, you never buy anything. Always waiting for the next announced product -- and never buying anything.
I guess it will be so, out before any new announcement, and working. I suppose your remark is not only aimed at Sinar, isn't it? It reminds me when I wanted to buy my first Mac, it took me 2 1/2 years.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry,
I rolled the dice today and called MIKE FLUITT and talked to him. Honestly, there was no listed dealer for my state, so I thought it might be illegal for me to buy an Hy6 and a 65, but I risked breaking the law and called him. He's a very nice guy, and was pretty forthcoming with details. He recommended to call either Fotocare in NY, or Dodd Camera in Cleveland, for rental/demo information. I didn't proceed any further though, since the 65 back is not out yet -- to me, that's the only Sinar game in town.
Jeff at Fotocare in NY sell's Hasselblad and Sinar, you can test both before purchase...
I may end up with Hy6 LEAF or SINAR System sooner than I thought!
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Thierry, is there a place/office in Europe, Russia or Asia where one from North America can rent Sinar Hy6 models
purely for testing purposes before they become available in every authorized North American store?
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Dear Saša,
yes, sure there are, in Europe and Asia (I would have to ask my colleague concerning Russia). I am not sure why you would rent a Hy6 camera system in these plaes if you are in North America and when these systems are available from our distributor there SBI or who can tell you where to rent?
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, is there a place/office in Europe, Russia or Asia where one from North America can rent Sinar Hy6 models
purely for testing purposes before they become available in every authorized North American store?
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Dear Saša,
yes, sure there are, in Europe and Asia (I would have to ask my colleague concerning Russia). I am not sure why you would rent a Hy6 camera system in these plaes if you are in North America and when these systems are available from our distributor there SBI or who can tell you where to rent?
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, I asked because I travel to Europe and Russia almost every second week and I think it would be nice to get familiar with the system anyway!
Respectfully, please don't ask why I don't rent it here in N.A. I think there is short supply for rent available if any... but I have a great hope for SINAR's new DB's and its quality so I'm expecting it will change for better!!!
I Hope I'm not being rude...
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Dear Saša,
No, you are not being rude. I was myself also not blaming you for asking a "stupid question", just trying to get information to help the best possible way.
I shall send you a PM shortly to let you know about details asap.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, I asked because I travel to Europe and Russia almost every second week and I think it would be nice to get familiar with the system anyway!
Respectfully, please don't ask why I don't rent it here in N.A. I think there is short supply for rent available if any... but I have a great hope for SINAR's new DB's and its quality so I'm expecting it will change for better!!!
I Hope I'm not being rude...
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Dear Saša,
"stupid question",
Best regards,
Thierry
Dear Thierry,
Dear Customer Service,
Dear SINAR,
Thank You!!!
PS: Let's not do your usual and poison this or any thread with your excellent/pretentious customer service...
PM is where your ignorance/talent is more than welcomed, let's do that and see what we have to offer
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Saša,
not really sure if I understand that one! Anyway, I am on my way to type you a PM with all the information you have asked me for. Give me 10 more minutes.
Best regards,
Thierry
PS: PM was sent out to you
Dear Thierry,
Dear Customer Service,
Dear SINAR,
Thank You!!!
PS: Let's not do your usual and poison this or any thread with your excellent/pretentious customer service...
PM is where your ignorance/talent is more than welcomed, let's do that and see what we have to offer ;)
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Thierry,
I feel for you man - again and again!
I just hope they pay you soooo... good that not lifting your middle finger to some of this people makes sens to you.
Andre
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Thanks, Andre.
I am honestly not sure how to take this last post, respectively what is meant (language problem probably). But yes, you are so right, there are other things which actually make sense, and am sure you know what I am speaking about.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I feel for you man - again and again!
I just hope they pay you soooo... good that not lifting your middle finger to some of this people makes sens to you.
Andre
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Sasha, Hi
Two places here in Moscow have the Hy6 with eMotion backs for rent.
SBF , an official dealer, (www.sbf-moscow.ru) and PhotoFrame (www.photosale.ru) have several cameras for rent. No SB 65LV yet.
Yevgeny
Thierry, I asked because I travel to Europe and Russia almost every second week and I think it would be nice to get familiar with the system anyway!