Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: j.miller on September 27, 2008, 08:40:13 pm
-
This week at the Photokina - World of Imaging Fair 2008, Linos/Rodenstock announced a news series of 35mm, Tilt/Shift SLR lenses aimed at today's high-resolution, DSLR camera systems. The new Rodenstock Digaron S+T lenses incorporate a total of three focal lengths, including one macro - 40mm f/4, 80mm f/2.8 and 120mm f/4 Macro. These new, fully manual lenses provided tremendous mechanical control, and significant movements thanks to a very generous optical design, allowing for up to 80mm image circle. These new Rodenstock lenses fill a much needed void in the market, as today's high-resolution DSLR cameras require much better optical designs, and more precise mechanical control.
Below is text from the original press release by Rodenstock, and a photo of these new lenses.
Thursday, September 25 2008 - Cologne, Germany
Professional product and architectural photography from an oblique perspective is characterized by correctly rectified "converging verticals" with or without a remaining perspective. For this kind of images usually an adjustable technical cameras is used. A vertical shift of its lens allows an oblique taking direction downwards for product shots or upwards for building shots without tilting the camera (more than necessary for a remaining perspective), and consequently also its image plane (film or sensor plane). In this way the vertical lines of the photographed products or buildings remain parallel or almost parallel with a remaining perspective. Furthermore, the lens of these cameras can be swung (horizontally) or tilted (vertically) for customizing the wedge-shaped depth of field to the form and position of the subject matter. Therefore the depth of field becomes apparently larger whithout stopping down further. Nowadays full-format sensors of digital 35 mm cameras offer sufficient resolution, low image noise, high dynamic and vivid color saturation even for many professional applications.
For this reason also the lenses of these cameras should be provided with a shift and tilt function in order to avoid converging lines and achieving depth of field without stopping down too much and without losing contrast due to diffraction. So digital 35mm cameras equipped with those lenes, could be used also for product and building photography. The Digaron S+T makes the SLR camera a movable camera.
Now three new Rodenstock "Digaron S+T" lenses (S = Shift,T = Tilt) with the focal lengths of 40mm, 80mm and 120mm let this wish come true without making any compromise: These lenses are designed for the highest demands in optical performance and provided with a shift and tilt mechanism. Thanks to an image circle diameter of 80 mm these lenses allow a parallel lens shift up to 10 mm and a tilt up to 8° simultaneously (thanks to its double 360° rotating mount, one each for the shift and tilt direction) independently of each other and in any direction, for both portrait and landscape format.
The image circle, which is about 20 mm larger than the image circle of conventional shift or shift-and-tilt lenses, allows not only the application of a maximum diagonal shift, but also a maximum shift and tilt in any direction at the same time.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
[attachment=8550:attachment]
-
Any idea what mount these will be available in?
Regards,
Bernard
-
Bernard,
It is my understanding they will be released in both Canon EF and Nikon F compatible mounts. As you can see in the photo, the pre-production samples are configured for Canon EF mount. It is still unclear as to how, if at all, these lenses will communicate with metering and focusing systems of both Canon and Nikon DSLRs.
I am still waiting on more information, as there were several new additions to the new Rodenstock Digaron line of lenses, announced at this year's Photokina, including some new medium format lens variations.
Regards
Jordan Miller
Any idea what mount these will be available in?
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225071\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Bernard,
It is my understanding they will be released in both Canon EF and Nikon F compatible mounts. As you can see in the photo, the pre-production samples are configured for Canon EF mount. It is still unclear as to how, if at all, these lenses will communicate with metering and focusing systems of both Canon and Nikon DSLRs.
DTG (http://www.dtgweb.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225074\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jordan,
Thanks for the quick feedback. I would expect them to be a purely mechanical connection, but this is probably not that much of a problem for the target applications.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
thanks, this seems have been under the radar of Photokina reports
with the Zeiss announcement and this do we hopefully see a trend to pick up some of the slack in Canon's lens vs sensor development?
-
This range would make sense if it was for MF SLR cameras, I'd kill for this range on a Mamiya mount if there was sufficient image circle.
As for Canon. I have the full TS-E set and I can't fathom why I'd buy these lenses for the Canon. The only area where Canon falls short in T-S lenses is in the wide angle range.
Maybe the 40mm could be better than the Canon 45 TS-E, the additional image circle would be useful. The 90 TS-E is so sharp I get aliasing artifacts on the 1Ds-II and you can put the teleconverter on this lens if you need it and its still amazingly sharp. The image circle is adequate for how I use it at this long focal length.
These would be a better fit for the Leica-S, if it had a wide enough image circle. It sounds like it does. Still not wide enough though at 40mm to really do the job as a wide angle.
-
As for Canon, I have the full TS-E set and I can't fathom why I'd buy these lenses for the Canon.
I have all three T&S lenses and I'd consider trading out the 45mm & 90mm for these if they were sharper while simultaneously offering greater degree of movements due to a larger image circle.
However, it appears Canon is slowly revising their lens line. If new technology such as their Sub-Wavelength Coating and circular apertures were offered in a remade 24mm & 45mm TS-E, I'd hope there'd be a dramatic IQ improvement.
Regardless of lens brand, it's great to see Zeiss & Rodenstock realize Canon's huge installed camera base and design lenses with the EF mount.
-
with the Zeiss announcement and this do we hopefully see a trend to pick up some of the slack in Canon's lens vs sensor development?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225084\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This range would make sense if it was for MF SLR cameras, [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225127\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It seems to me that Rodenstock (and Zeiss) have noticed that their sales of medium- and large-format lenses have fallen dramatically in the last few years, and have figured out that most of the commercial and fine-art market has gone to 35mm-format cameras. If they want to stay in business, they have to go where the business is.
-
Imagine a 5D2 or 1Ds3 with the 40mm for stitching.
All across supersharp 42 mp's, 48X36mm capture, 28mm lens equivalent.
This combination could dust an S2.
Eduardo
Edit: I just noticed shift is only 10mm either way. The results slighlty change:
38 mp's, 44X36mm capture, 32 mm lens equivalent.
It would certainly match the S2 image quality for a fraction. some photogs would even prefer this image ratio.
It seems to me that Rodenstock (and Zeiss) have noticed that their sales of medium- and large-format lenses have fallen dramatically in the last few years, and have figured out that most of commercial and fine-art market has gone to 35mm-format cameras. If they want to stay in business, they have to go where the business is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
another good set of lenses for a canon.
The large image circle, are they basically medium format optics?, should mean sharpness all the way into the corners even when fully shifted...hopefully they will push the envelope with a wider version but perhaps for a lens with this large an image circle for the 35mm format...40mm is the widest possible?
This should give the same results as using a medium format lens on a zork or mirex adapter?
Marc
-
Makes me wonder if I pulled the trigger on buying the Nikkor 45/2.8 PC-E too soon. I really like the idea of being able to independently set the tilt and shift. I wonder though what the price will be and when I would be able to buy the Rodenstock 40/4 Digaron S+T at any price. I really appreciate being able to set aperture on the PC-E lenses from my D300 and have it automatically adjust even as I focus closer, my 45/2.8 PC-E is exceptionally sharp even wide open and it has outstanding bokeh. There's a lot of information I don't have about these new Rodenstock lenses such as maximum magnification, measured performance, and price; but I will certainly take a closer look at them as more information becomes available.
Imagine a 5D2 or 1Ds3 with the 40mm for stitching.
All across supersharp 42 mp's, 48X36mm capture, 28mm lens equivalent.
This combination could dust an S2.
Eduardo
Edit: I just noticed shift is only 10mm either way. The results slighlty change:
38 mp's, 44X36mm capture, 32 mm lens equivalent.
It would certainly match the S2 image quality for a fraction. some photogs would even prefer this image ratio.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Shifting lenses to the edges of the image circle diminishes them; it remains to be seen how the Rodenstock lenses will perform when pushed to their extremes. Stitching can make any camera high resolution; the problem is that light and subject often do not wait for the photographer to stitch the scene together. Personally, I think a pano-head makes more sense than shifting the lens for stitching because I want to reserve shifting for perspective control. Of course, you can always stitch 3 S2 images together and blow away a stitched 21-24MP 3 file image. Sometimes though, it's nice to have a smaller file because we don't need a bazooka to kill flies when a fly swatter will do -- that's why it would be nice if Canon provided a cropped format mode in their high MP DSLRs.
-
The large image circle, are they basically medium format optics?, should mean sharpness all the way into the corners even when fully shifted
This is false. Sharpness, color acuity and resolution are all degraded towards the edge of the image circle, in any lens. In addition, the image circle has a soft gradation from 90% of max EV to 0% max EV (i.e., black).
There's a lot of information I don't have about these new Rodenstock lenses...
Such as a release date.
-
Pretty good news... I'm glad we'll have the choice of alternatives.. We'll see how pricing goes yet, but will be nice to have some more choice.
-
Any price info on this lenses????
This week at the Photokina - World of Imaging Fair 2008, Linos/Rodenstock announced a news series of 35mm, Tilt/Shift SLR lenses aimed at today's high-resolution, DSLR camera systems. The new Rodenstock Digaron S+T lenses incorporate a total of three focal lengths, including one macro - 40mm f/4, 80mm f/2.8 and 120mm f/4 Macro. These new, fully manual lenses provided tremendous mechanical control, and significant movements thanks to a very generous optical design, allowing for up to 80mm image circle. These new Rodenstock lenses fill a much needed void in the market, as today's high-resolution DSLR cameras require much better optical designs, and more precise mechanical control.
Below is text from the original press release by Rodenstock, and a photo of these new lenses.
Thursday, September 25 2008 - Cologne, Germany
Professional product and architectural photography from an oblique perspective is characterized by correctly rectified "converging verticals" with or without a remaining perspective. For this kind of images usually an adjustable technical cameras is used. A vertical shift of its lens allows an oblique taking direction downwards for product shots or upwards for building shots without tilting the camera (more than necessary for a remaining perspective), and consequently also its image plane (film or sensor plane). In this way the vertical lines of the photographed products or buildings remain parallel or almost parallel with a remaining perspective. Furthermore, the lens of these cameras can be swung (horizontally) or tilted (vertically) for customizing the wedge-shaped depth of field to the form and position of the subject matter. Therefore the depth of field becomes apparently larger whithout stopping down further. Nowadays full-format sensors of digital 35 mm cameras offer sufficient resolution, low image noise, high dynamic and vivid color saturation even for many professional applications.
For this reason also the lenses of these cameras should be provided with a shift and tilt function in order to avoid converging lines and achieving depth of field without stopping down too much and without losing contrast due to diffraction. So digital 35mm cameras equipped with those lenes, could be used also for product and building photography. The Digaron S+T makes the SLR camera a movable camera.
Now three new Rodenstock "Digaron S+T" lenses (S = Shift,T = Tilt) with the focal lengths of 40mm, 80mm and 120mm let this wish come true without making any compromise: These lenses are designed for the highest demands in optical performance and provided with a shift and tilt mechanism. Thanks to an image circle diameter of 80 mm these lenses allow a parallel lens shift up to 10 mm and a tilt up to 8° simultaneously (thanks to its double 360° rotating mount, one each for the shift and tilt direction) independently of each other and in any direction, for both portrait and landscape format.
The image circle, which is about 20 mm larger than the image circle of conventional shift or shift-and-tilt lenses, allows not only the application of a maximum diagonal shift, but also a maximum shift and tilt in any direction at the same time.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
DTG (http://www.dtgweb.com)
[attachment=8550:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225067\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
These three lenses look very similar to the Hartblei/prototype trio that was
announced at Photokina 2006 and which are supposedly available as 'prototypes'
to purchase from their website
http://www.hartblei.eu/en/srz-set.htm (http://www.hartblei.eu/en/srz-set.htm)
Prices listed on their site and dated Jan 2008 suggest 8304 euro for set of three
Mark
-
Damn, no 24mm....
I'm surprised by tony's remark about the Nikon not being able to set tilt & shift independantly.
What? Why? and how come?
Other question to tilt-shift owners: the FOV for a 45mm lens is about 51 degrees.
When stitching, can you get it to 80-90 degrees? is the circle large enought for this?
-
If my math is ok, when stitching 2 vertical frames for a horizontal picture, it will have around 75 degrees.
Eduardo
Damn, no 24mm....
I'm surprised by tony's remark about the Nikon not being able to set tilt & shift independantly.
What? Why? and how come?
Other question to tilt-shift owners: the FOV for a 45mm lens is about 51 degrees.
When stitching, can you get it to 80-90 degrees? is the circle large enought for this?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225783\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
These three lenses look very similar to the Hartblei/prototype trio that was
announced at Photokina 2006 and which are supposedly available as 'prototypes'
to purchase from their website
http://www.hartblei.eu/en/srz-set.htm (http://www.hartblei.eu/en/srz-set.htm)
Prices listed on their site and dated Jan 2008 suggest 8304 euro for set of three
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi!
You made an interesting observation. Comparing the images it looks like the 80mm being exactly the same and the other two lenses having largely same components. The optics may be completely different though.
Cheers,
J
-
We need to watch out for the distortion characteristics of these lenses before getting carried away by stitching fantasies.
They might be great (and I could see myself maybe in the market for the 40), but I'd want to see if that large image circle is accompanied by low distortion.
I get good stitched images with the 45 TS-E on the Canon, but with the 24 TS-E I only like stitching in the short direction because of the banana like curves one gets shifting it in the long direction.
As for the MF image circle, its not really enough for the way MF chips are going, full frame or full wide. These seem to fall between the stools, not wide enough for a 35mm chip, too small an image circle for a 'proper' MF chip. The Leica S might be the magic format to fit these, but there are a lot of untested things to consider there.
-
I'm surprised by tony's remark about the Nikon not being able to set tilt & shift independantly.
What? Why? and how come?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225783\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My apologies for being ambiguous about how I stated the inability to independently set the tilt and shift functions on the Nikkor PC-E lenses. Yes, I can adjust the shift and tilt functions at the same time, but those functions rotate at the same time when I want to change the orientation of the shift and/or tilt functions on the camera's mount. The Nikkor 85mm and 45mm PC-E lenses are sold with those functions offset 90° from each other (the 24mm version has a slightly different offset, but I'm not clear on the implications of that), for a fee of about $125 the Nikkors can be adjusted by an authorized Service Center to be on the same axis; these Rodenstock lenses appear to be able to independently adjust the orientation of both the shift and tilt functions, and that would be very nifty.
Now as I mentioned in my previous reply, you can set aperture using the camera's dial with the newest top of the line DSLRs for these PC-E lenses. Probably because this capability makes the internal connections more complicated, the orientation of the lenses' functions relative to each other cannot be adjusted by the user (brave souls are able to do this themselves with the older Nikkor 85 PC Micro, but it's not something you do well using the lens in the field). Along with image quality, I will be interested in this capability with the Rodenstock lenses; while I suspect that price may trump those considerations, the Nikkor PC-E lenses are already pretty darn expensive -- so we'll see.
-
but no 24 or 28mm :-(
-
Any updated info on availability and pricing,
or if the lenses will be offered in Mamiya 645 mount?
-
So did these ever ship or are they just vaporware?
And what is it with these European companies that can't be bothered to have a website. It's 2009, fer cryin' out loud.
-
So did these ever ship or are they just vaporware?
And what is it with these European companies that can't be bothered to have a website. It's 2009, fer cryin' out loud.
See Rodenstock Website (http://www.rodenstock.com/rod_web/com/en/theme.jsp?id=documents/0000/00/00/40/16537.xml)
"As part of the concentration on the core business of spectacles, Rodenstock divested itself of the whole photographic and precision-optical business and sold it to Linos AG, Göttingen in 2000."
Their website is: LINOS (http://www.linos.com/pages/497.html?lang=en) but good luck finding any useful info there
-
See Rodenstock Website (http://www.rodenstock.com/rod_web/com/en/theme.jsp?id=documents/0000/00/00/40/16537.xml)
"As part of the concentration on the core business of spectacles, Rodenstock divested itself of the whole photographic and precision-optical business and sold it to Linos AG, Göttingen in 2000."
Their website is: LINOS (http://www.linos.com/pages/497.html?lang=en) but good luck finding any useful info there
I was "lucky" enough to find this page
http://www.linos.com/pages/home/shop-optik...fachfotografie/ (http://www.linos.com/pages/home/shop-optik/rodenstock-foto-objektive/digitale-fachfotografie/)
linked from this page
http://www.linos.com/pages/home/shop-optik...ektive/?lang=en (http://www.linos.com/pages/home/shop-optik/rodenstock-foto-objektive/?lang=en)
No mention of the T+S lenses announced at Photokina 2008, though two other Photokina-announced lenses are there.