Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dkeyes on September 22, 2008, 11:43:26 pm
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Ran across the new HP z3200 printer on their site here:
http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/...res|alwatson|b1 (http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/gap_content.jsp?zn=gap&cp=1-315-371-384^165143_4000_303__&jumpid=re_r10931|en-ph|sep08|ga|ipg|features|alwatson|b1)
As usual the links to more info don't work. Might still be updating the info right now. Looks like new red/black printhead and red ink (still 12 inks).
Also noticed they have a link to a new Baryte satin paper which sounds very interesting to me. Looking forward to hearing more about this in the coming days.
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I would bet it has an almost imperceptible gamut improvement, and everything else is unchanged.
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I would bet it has an almost imperceptible gamut improvement, and everything else is unchanged.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No it's a big improvement over the past series. Yet there is no reason why it wasn't done beforehand, nor is there any reason why current users shouldn't benefit with their Z3100 printers.
You have to know that on optimized media the prints on the Z are on par with any of the other LFPs .
Albert Watson has a show in Cologne with some new prints on the new Z, Douglas Kirkland, Thomas Hoepker which will be as usual as good as they can be. They will be as good as or better than darkroom prints, and let the photography talk for itself, as it should.
The problem though is when using third party or non optimised media that there are surprises.
That is why a Baryta that is made for the Z is a good thing as most of the other Baryta so far on HP are problematic. Even with the best Baryta I've ever seen , the Hahenmuhle PhotoRag Baryta (the new one) with HP inks you have to fight with wiping off a haze, bronzing in the light grey, bronzing in the light colours, gloss uniformity. Those are problems that Epson users experience less or not at all. Canon fixed their problems by changing the magenta, and their reds were always great with the 12 ink systems. They changed the greys to reduce bronzing to near zero.
Although the entry of the Z was spectacular, this news doesn't have anything in the way of a promise other than what should have been designed in the first place.
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And no new 17" model yet.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers)
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I'd appreciate comments about the surface and texture of the new HP Baryte paper. I wish it was heavier than 290 gsm, but perhaps it is stiffer than some of the other new offerings. Can someone lay eyes on some of it and report how the finish and texture compare to some of the other new offerings it is competing with?
I was looking forward to the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, but the idea of having to polish my prints does not sound appealing. On the other hand, 315 gsm for the PRB should be quite a lot heavier than 290 of HPs new paper. Also, going their own way, as usual, I notice that HP doesn't want to call it Baryta like the others, and labels it Baryte.
Unless I missed it, are there any other major features of the Z3200 other than red gamut?
-Ron H.
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I'd appreciate comments about the surface and texture of the new HP Baryte paper. I wish it was heavier than 290 gsm, but perhaps it is stiffer than some of the other new offerings. Can someone lay eyes on some of it and report how the finish and texture compare to some of the other new offerings it is competing with?
I was looking forward to the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, but the idea of having to polish my prints does not sound appealing. On the other hand, 315 gsm for the PRB should be quite a lot heavier than 290 of HPs new paper. Also, going their own way, as usual, I notice that HP doesn't want to call it Baryta like the others, and labels it Baryte.
Unless I missed it, are there any other major features of the Z3200 other than red gamut?
-Ron H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's faster, they changed the interface a bit for building profiles, they changed the inside of the rear sheet loader slightly, not much else.
With a Z on Photo paper you should really be using GE, in which case you don't have to polish prints.
I will ask about this new paper when I'm at Photokina.
Ernst will be there tomorrow too so let's send him on a mission.
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I wonder if we will be able to change the ink head(s) and red ink in the old z3100 to take advantage of the new red.
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For those of us who have suffered with poor reds on non photo papers it would add insult to injury for HP not to package the new red ink in a form us Z3100 users could take advantage of.
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It's faster, they changed the interface a bit for building profiles, they changed the inside of the rear sheet loader slightly, not much else.
With a Z on Photo paper you should really be using GE, in which case you don't have to polish prints.
I will ask about this new paper when I'm at Photokina.
Ernst will be there tomorrow too so let's send him on a mission.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223639\")
Had it planned already. Not that much printer news so more time for papers. Hahnemühle, HP, Innova, Intelicoat that must have the Crane portfolio for the EU now, Canson.
Anyone familiar with the quality of the HP and Noritsu "dry" minilabs that use inkjet printing for the prints ? According to Wilhelm the print life of the HP prints is several times that of Fuji Crystal but I wonder what the gamut is compared with Crystal. Not a Photokina first but I wasn't aware of this development.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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With a Z on Photo paper you should really be using GE, in which case you don't have to polish prints.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223639\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do use gloss enhancer on this type of paper, but since I don't have any PR Baryta to play with, I misinterpreted your comment about polishing. I've seen bronzing on prints made with GE (Ilford Gold Gallerie Silk, for instance), so I thought you were saying they needed wiping even with the GE on.
-Ron H.
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Ernst;
HP use Vivera pigments in the SnapFish kiosk printers. So the paper used being similar to Advanced Glossy/Instant Dry come in with excellent lightfastness and waterproof to boot.
The use a doubled up print head that covers a very wide swath so the thing prints an A6 in seconds.
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MacWorld (very lite) review of the new HP z3200
http://www.macworld.com/article/135690/200...gnjetz3200.html (http://www.macworld.com/article/135690/2008/09/hpdesignjetz3200.html)
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MacWorld (very lite) review of the new HP z3200
http://www.macworld.com/article/135690/200...gnjetz3200.html (http://www.macworld.com/article/135690/2008/09/hpdesignjetz3200.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm surprised that they even criticized the new printer at all considering the number of ad pages paid for. by the maker.
I'm not sure who has the printer that could make a decent review. Perhaps David Saffir or if they send one to Uwe Steinmueller. In France certainly Thierry D. wrote an excellent review, in fact the best I've ever seen.
I don't have one, but have some prints with the reds, hence my assertion that they are on par with the others on the brightest of reds on down.
Hopefully the other media feed problems are worked out for third party media. If not at least you now have a Baryta option that will surely work as all the media optimised for the Z work extremely well.
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Neil,
Any idea who's actually making the new HP Baryte Satin Art Paper???
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Neil,
Any idea who's actually making the new HP Baryte Satin Art Paper???
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That was the best joke of all time. What were people bitching about on the old series ? Let me remind you. That the z3100 series can't produce any good reds on matt paper. HP never fixed that problem on the old series and with the presentation of this new version they show that they messed up and couldn't have fixed it with their first generation. I'm just happy that HP gave me my money back for the z3100. Perhaps their second try will be better, but for me HP died for printers.
To add something. Yes for 90% of all stuff the z3100 was good, but not if you needed good and high accurate color output on matt paper.
As Epson they could have done that in the beginning and upgrading the z3100 with a new ink but they didn't. Well I can understand it, why giving in to a mistake if you can make a whole new printer series out of it...
EDIT:
"ccording to HP, this new ink significantly widens the printable gamut, producing much richer color that is more true to life." ..... It does not widens anything... it just brings it up to the point there the z3100 should have been.
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That was the best joke of all time. What were people bitching about on the old series ? Let me remind you. That the z3100 series can't produce any good reds on matt paper. HP never fixed that problem on the old series and with the presentation of this new version they show that they messed up and couldn't have fixed it with their first generation. I'm just happy that HP gave me my money back for the z3100. Perhaps their second try will be better, but for me HP died for printers.
To add something. Yes for 90% of all stuff the z3100 was good, but not if you needed good and high accurate color output on matt paper.
As Epson they could have done that in the beginning and upgrading the z3100 with a new ink but they didn't. Well I can understand it, why giving in to a mistake if you can make a whole new printer series out of it...
EDIT:
"ccording to HP, this new ink significantly widens the printable gamut, producing much richer color that is more true to life." ..... It does not widens anything... it just brings it up to the point there the z3100 should have been.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223928\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure what your post has to do with who's making the HP Baryte Satin Art paper.
If you're looking for someone to say you were right about the Z3100 reds on matte papers..... well let's just go ahead and get that out of the way. You and everyone else who didn't like the reds on matte paper were right. Feel better now?
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The Z3100 could print very nice reds on HP Smooth Fine Art. Since it is an optimised paper it is hard to find fault with it there. IF anything they could have done better at the color maps, as it is not necessarily just the ink tank color.
The problems are very saturated reds, and dark reds on less coated papers like PhotoRag 308 on which the Smooth is based upon.
The original long winded threads on the reds were brought upon us from someone trying to use some cheapo matte paper that wasn't performing as well as his old Epson.
True enough, no one said it wasn't true. Yet who cares? Yes those who print on el cheapo media, but then why by a printer to do that.
I thought you sold your Z on ebay saying you were moving or something?
If HP gave you your money back then it shows that they accept that you didn't find the reds acceptable. Do you think Epson would give back your money if you didn't find the black swapping acceptable?
I'm glad they upped the reds. It wasn't the first thing on my wish list they change though, but they seemed to make it a priority.
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That the z3100 series can't produce any good reds on matt paper.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223928\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
z3100 Reds look fine on HP Litho matte paper. For that matter, the reds have been no problem for me on any HP media, which is mostly what I print on, for my photos or for art repro for clients. Had a little issue with reds in 1 or 2 paintings I printed on Innova Coldpress. This was easily overcome by tweaking those areas in the paintings in Photoshop. For that matter, violet / purple hues are sometimes not right on. Again, a little tweak in Photoshop does the trick. This is a non-issue for me now as all but one of my art repro customers has switched to HP Litho from the Innova papers.
IF HP decides to make another red available for the z3100, I only ask that they do something to the packaging to make it absolutely obvious to retailers and customers which red is which. I'm dialed in and making perfect prints with the z3100 as is. YMMV
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Anyone familiar with the quality of the HP and Noritsu "dry" minilabs that use inkjet printing for the prints ? According to Wilhelm the print life of the HP prints is several times that of Fuji Crystal but I wonder what the gamut is compared with Crystal. Not a Photokina first but I wasn't aware of this development.
Ernst, you are probably very busy with Photokina right about now, but check out an article I just posted on my website when you get a chance:
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.html (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.html)
It has some information on the Fujifilm DL 400 which I believe is the fuji branded version of the Noritsu drylab technology you are referencing. I was rather surprised at the coarse screening pattern, but the prints do look sharp at normal viewing distances, so I doubt many consumers will notice. The color gamut of the DL 400 prints is better than traditional RA-4 process compatible papers,but the unit I had access to at my local store was by no means dialed in properly. It printed too dark and with slight yellow color cast, so there is definitely room for improvement in terms of overall tone reproduction. It also seems to use the K ink for more GCR than desktop inkjet printers which has both pluses and minuses. I would guess that the sRGB colorspace translation to device output on this equipment will be improved with some calibration updates as more units get installed and operational.
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The Z3100 could print very nice reds on HP Smooth Fine Art. Since it is an optimised paper it is hard to find fault with it there. IF anything they could have done better at the color maps, as it is not necessarily just the ink tank color.
The problems are very saturated reds, and dark reds on less coated papers like PhotoRag 308 on which the Smooth is based upon.
The original long winded threads on the reds were brought upon us from someone trying to use some cheapo matte paper that wasn't performing as well as his old Epson.
True enough, no one said it wasn't true. Yet who cares? Yes those who print on el cheapo media, but then why by a printer to do that.
I thought you sold your Z on ebay saying you were moving or something?
If HP gave you your money back then it shows that they accept that you didn't find the reds acceptable. Do you think Epson would give back your money if you didn't find the black swapping acceptable?
I'm glad they upped the reds. It wasn't the first thing on my wish list they change though, but they seemed to make it a priority.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223979\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No Epson would give me the money back, because it is stated that it is necessary to swap inks.
Hp on the ofter hand denied the problems at first. The reds on a z3100 look good as long they are not next to a good red matt print.
I first wanted to sell the printer on ebay, after the contact to the HP engeniering group did not work out as intended. However while it was on ebay, I came to a good final solution with HP, which was quite ok.
I'm not saying the Z3100 had great parts and ideas, I was just very pissed how HP managed the whole matter.
I still have enough stuff around here, that shows clearly that the z3100 wasn't able to produce nice rich dark reds compared to an Epson or Canon. It didn't really matter which kind of matte paper one used. Especially if you had a lot of rolls of HM PhotoRag still sitting around.
Still that probably is the same as on clogs with Epson printers ^^, I never had a single one so I can't understand how people can be upset by it ;-). Still that doesn't mean the problem isn't there.
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I tried with the z3100 for a few months but gave up on it. Reds, feeding, slow, spectro letting light in on thick medias, five min start up, buggy software... the list goes on and on.
Even with the new red and front end spit and polish this engine has run its course. I suspect HP are just bridging the gap, trying to remain competitive in proofing/photography markets while they work on the new range and I know it'll have to be special to beat the new Epson Prox900 range.
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Ernst;
HP use Vivera pigments in the SnapFish kiosk printers. So the paper used being similar to Advanced Glossy/Instant Dry come in with excellent lightfastness and waterproof to boot.
The use a doubled up print head that covers a very wide swath so the thing prints an A6 in seconds.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223835\")
But the Fuji (Noritsu ?) (Epson technology) had better saturation, better gloss, better contrast, better detail. Dye colors though but I guess with a Crystal equivalent light resistance. Could be good enough.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers[/url]
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Neil,
Any idea who's actually making the new HP Baryte Satin Art Paper???
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223899\")
The grapevine said Sihl. But that doesn't mean Sihl has an equivalent paper around. I did like the one B&W print on display at the booth and made on it with a Z3200.
Hahnemühle's barytes are very nice too and the Innova Fibers are as nice (and a better selection of picture content on Innova's booth than on any of the booths I have been on).
Matter of taste of course.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers[/url]
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I've had the 3200 for a few months, and I am very happy with it.
The biggest improvement is certainly with matte (and to a lesser extent, but still noticable with gloss) media and saturated reds, especially dark saturated reds. For most photography not a big issue, but welcome nonetheless. For painting reproductions, a big improvement.
I don't believe the reds are going to be improved in the z3100
The other big improvement is the ability to adjust how much GE you use. I had printed on GFS with the 3100, bad gloss diff and bronzing. The 3200 and the 3100 with the new driver allows GE to be adjusted by a large degree, both less and more GE. GFS prints beautifully!
You can choose whether or not to cut the leading edge of gloss papers- Nice! But I can't figure out why you would want to; that's another story. You can choose to skip the alignment check when you load sheet paper, which for quick proofs is helpful. For final prints, I always check the alignment. Other improvements have been noted already.
The new HP Baryte paper is beautiful, and yes, Ernst, I have been very happy with the B/W as well as the color prints on it. So far, the nicest B/W paper I've printed on. Nice finish, and nice feel.
More comments later
Bill
The grapevine said Sihl. But that doesn't mean Sihl has an equivalent paper around. I did like the one B&W print on display at the booth and made on it with a Z3200.
Hahnemühle's barytes are very nice too and the Innova Fibers are as nice (and a better selection of picture content on Innova's booth than on any of the booths I have been on).
Matter of taste of course.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The new HP Baryte paper is beautiful, and yes, Ernst, I have been very happy with the B/W as well as the color prints on it. So far, the nicest B/W paper I've printed on. Nice finish, and nice feel.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bill-
Could you elaborate a bit more on the finish and weight of this paper. How does the sheen and texture compare to the other papers in this class? Do you see any buckling of the surface, with it being under 300gsm in weight?
Thanks,
Ron H.
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I would bet it has an almost imperceptible gamut improvement, and everything else is unchanged.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry only replying to these threads now but have been very busy printing and testing.
The 3200 is actually a big leap forward even though it looks very much like the 3100. There are many subtle design changes that solve issues with the 3100 but the biggest improvement is in the colour rendition which is really awesome.
The approach I took to testing the 3200 was really to quantify the improvements in colour rendition over the z3100 which involved lots of comparative tests starting from raw uncalibrated colour to the results when both machines were profiled over a variety of media. While I was, as many here will know, very unhappy with the colour from the 3100, I am extremely happy with the colour from the 3200 and have finally retired my trusty Epson 4000 as it is no longer a match for the 3200.
Robert.
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Hi Robert,
I hope you have time to detail the research and testing you've done. I'm very interested in understanding the differences between the 3100 and 3200.
I've been pleased with the results from my 3100 w/APS but I'm certain I'm not as discerning as you are with regards to color fidelity.
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Hi Robert,
I hope you have time to detail the research and testing you've done. I'm very interested in understanding the differences between the 3100 and 3200.
I've been pleased with the results from my 3100 w/APS but I'm certain I'm not as discerning as you are with regards to color fidelity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Ron
I will post some of the results once they are all tabled but at the moment I am still compiling everything and putting the results together as it took a lot longer to test than I hoped it would and my testing was not completed prior to the Z3200 launch.
What I can tell you is that on both gloss and matt media a 24 patch X-rite colour checker chart, with a profile created with HP colour centre, compared with the chart supplied by X-rite shows no significant difference between them and it is not easy at a glance to tell which is which.
The Z3100 performs ok in this test on gloss media but the difference between the charts especially in the reds is noticeable and on matt media the difference is obvious.
HP’s colour team has really learned from the Z3100 and from our feedback and has done a sterling job with the Z3200.
Robert
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I've had the 3200 for a few months, and I am very happy with it.
The biggest improvement is certainly with matte (and to a lesser extent, but still noticable with gloss) media and saturated reds, especially dark saturated reds. For most photography not a big issue, but welcome nonetheless. For painting reproductions, a big improvement.
...
Bill
Hi Bill,
I read your post with interest -- especially since you have had your Z3200 for a few months now. I am wondering if you are printing on gloss or satin photobase media and whether you are noticing any improvement with the notorious star-wheel track marks? I have been having issues with this and am looking for a solution. HP is suggesting that the Z3200 addresses / improves these marking issues. {see my initial post: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=28486 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28486) }
(I'd love to hear from you or anyone else who has successfully printed on gloss media.)
Cheers,
Claire (Toronto)
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As a result of comment posted by Neil, I discovered that some individuals have received their HP Z3200 printers at no charge. Either for free; on a long-term if not permanent "loan"; or a temporary arrangement.
William Morse, to his credit, voluntarily disclosed in a different thread that he received the Z3200 on a free loan from HP, and I commend him for doing so.
Anyone else who is singing the virtues of the Z3200, and did not purchase the printer with their own hard-earned cash, should do the same.
I suspect that many who have already had the Z3200 for an extended period of time also received it for free or as part of an extended loan from HP. For how else could they have the printer so far in advance of anyone else, as it is only now going on sale?
Disclose your own arrangements with HP. Let the readers of the forum decide whether that influenced your opinion or not.
(The only exception, either for HP or any other manufacturer, would be someone who is already very well known for an established commercial relationship with the manufacturer in question and where such a relationship has already been disclosed and is generally known.)
At the outset, let me note that a person who receives free equipment might have sincere and positive comments.
But would such an individual, who benefits from loans of very expensive equipment, post sharply critical comments if that was their actual and honest perspective? Or would they fear that it might be the last free printer you'll ever see, because no one bites the hand that feeds them? Isn't it more likely that such a person would only share highly critical comments privately with HP, and we would never benefit from or hear such comments in a public forum?
If you are a world famous reviewer, with your own established web site or magazine, you'll likely receive the equipment even if you do on occasion publish sharply critical reviews. The manufacturers can't ignore you, however upset they might be with you.
But a less important and not publicly known individual could get cut off from free merchandise in a nanosecond after posting a sharply critical review. It is silly and just plain naive to try to tell us that is not the case. Such a person is far more likely to only share an extremely critical review on a private basis with HP and never post it here. Again, that person won't bite the hand that feeds them.
And that would result in a skewed set of publicly posted positive reviews in this or any other forum. Which is why, for HP, this is a great way to ensure positive comments in reviews and on this forum. Providing merchandise for free -- either permanently or on a semi-permanent "loan" -- will do wonders with regards to guaranteeing rave reviews. (And I'm sure that HP is not alone, among manufacturers, in doing this.) This is also why any consumer with a half a brain should treat published reviews, that are almost entirely positive, with extreme skepticism. The same set of issues apply. Either the reviewer gets free equipment, or the magazine only publishes positive reviews so that they continue to get paid advertising from the manufacturer. That is, after all, why some of the leading consumer magazines state, right up front, that they pay for everything; they never accept anything for free; and receive no advertising from the manufacturers that they review. That is why some web sites that review equipment have no advertising from those manufacturers, and honestly disclose how they receive equipment.
So let's have some honest disclosures, and then the readers of the forum can reach their own conclusions. I am less likely to trust the views of someone who is praising a piece of merchandise, and has not openly disclosed such an arrangement.
Finally, before anyone reacts with indignation at the suggestion that you have been influenced by a free loan, I would note that your indignation would be better received if you had disclosed the fact of the the loan of permanent "loan" of the printer on your own, and done so up front, without any prompting.
If you failed to do that, then you are in no position to protest your indignation or innocence.
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I don't fully trust ANY compensated remarks. It's simply advertising, stated in different ways.
I'm too biased after working with media groups and advertising for various companies. Every little bit counts.
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The more you test a device the more time you have to get to know it. If the time is spent in discovery , the findings should speak for themselves regardless of an obvious bias whatever brand they may be.
There is no such thing as an unbiased report in our sector.
What you need to do is regroup all the criticism collectively, put a fudge factor in there, and make your own assumption. The better reports have facts, figures, numbers and examples. The few power users that have all three brands and know them well are limited to a handful of people in the world. Reports by them are very valuable indeed. When Michael Reichmann says if you print on all three late LFP pigment printers viewed at a normal viewing distance you won't discern a difference.
That says it all.
All the rest is what creates biases, especially user experiences usually based on their current machine. The grass is always greener on the other side.....
The policies of who gets what and for what in exchange is probably similar in all three brands. There is no automatic offering of a printer at HP, nor Epson > all depends on the amount of testing done, the feedback, the value of all of that, then decided on a one by one basis. When I say that printers are given away, I was not referring to anyone posting here. This is also brand agnostic as I see that happening for all three brands. It does bother me, as the users who post and help others are what users here look forward to, yet some people are given printers that they have never done a thing for, nor post to help others. Yet in the world today there is much worse, more important problems to worry about.
Vivre la difference!
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they are listing the 3200 at $3395 on their website
http://h71016.www7.hp.com/dstore/MiddleFra...p;ci_sku=Q6718A (http://h71016.www7.hp.com/dstore/MiddleFrame.asp?page=config&ProductLineId=503&FamilyId=2901&BaseID=28291&jumpid=ex_r2910_CIGB_IPG&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=Q6718A)
when I went to the trade-in/up program its a dead end. I am certainly not up for spending thousands for the "one that works" the way I expected my first printer I spent thousands on after less than two years. Its looking more and more like ebay+epson to solution.
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Hi Marty-
Nice "discovery"! As the printers were not even announced until less than a month ago, clearly anyone who has one has been testing it! Sheesh! I have to say, I resent your attitude. I would OTOH agree that anyone who recieves a free printer should definately disclose that, as it gives us more info.
OTOH, any comments (from anyone!) should be taken with a grain of salt. I've certainly seen enough of "what I just bought is best" to know that all comments from users can be biased (and no, absolutely, not, I've never, ever been guilty of that myself ;^) LOL
Marty, you've clearly got a big axe of your own to grind; it would be helpful if instead of running other members comments down, you clearly state your own opinion of the various options available to us. Then we can put that in the mix with everyone elses, and decide who we as individuals trust the most.
Bill
PS- all you have to do is look for my posts re" z3100 and HP's website.to know that I have been sharply critical of HP, although generally happy with my z3100. In fact, to give credit where credit is due, it was partly because of those criticisms that I was invited to beta test the z3200.
PPS- And don't get me started on HP's website!!!
As a result of comment posted by Neil, I discovered that some individuals have received their HP Z3200 printers at no charge. Either for free; on a long-term if not permanent "loan"; or a temporary arrangement.
William Morse, to his credit, voluntarily disclosed in a different thread that he received the Z3200 on a free loan from HP, and I commend him for doing so.
Anyone else who is singing the virtues of the Z3200, and did not purchase the printer with their own hard-earned cash, should do the same.
I suspect that many who have already had the Z3200 for an extended period of time also received it for free or as part of an extended loan from HP. For how else could they have the printer so far in advance of anyone else, as it is only now going on sale?
Disclose your own arrangements with HP. Let the readers of the forum decide whether that influenced your opinion or not.
(The only exception, either for HP or any other manufacturer, would be someone who is already very well known for an established commercial relationship with the manufacturer in question and where such a relationship has already been disclosed and is generally known.)
At the outset, let me note that a person who receives free equipment might have sincere and positive comments.
But would such an individual, who benefits from loans of very expensive equipment, post sharply critical comments if that was their actual and honest perspective? Or would they fear that it might be the last free printer you'll ever see, because no one bites the hand that feeds them? Isn't it more likely that such a person would only share highly critical comments privately with HP, and we would never benefit from or hear such comments in a public forum?
If you are a world famous reviewer, with your own established web site or magazine, you'll likely receive the equipment even if you do on occasion publish sharply critical reviews. The manufacturers can't ignore you, however upset they might be with you.
But a less important and not publicly known individual could get cut off from free merchandise in a nanosecond after posting a sharply critical review. It is silly and just plain naive to try to tell us that is not the case. Such a person is far more likely to only share an extremely critical review on a private basis with HP and never post it here. Again, that person won't bite the hand that feeds them.
And that would result in a skewed set of publicly posted positive reviews in this or any other forum. Which is why, for HP, this is a great way to ensure positive comments in reviews and on this forum. Providing merchandise for free -- either permanently or on a semi-permanent "loan" -- will do wonders with regards to guaranteeing rave reviews. (And I'm sure that HP is not alone, among manufacturers, in doing this.) This is also why any consumer with a half a brain should treat published reviews, that are almost entirely positive, with extreme skepticism. The same set of issues apply. Either the reviewer gets free equipment, or the magazine only publishes positive reviews so that they continue to get paid advertising from the manufacturer. That is, after all, why some of the leading consumer magazines state, right up front, that they pay for everything; they never accept anything for free; and receive no advertising from the manufacturers that they review. That is why some web sites that review equipment have no advertising from those manufacturers, and honestly disclose how they receive equipment.
So let's have some honest disclosures, and then the readers of the forum can reach their own conclusions. I am less likely to trust the views of someone who is praising a piece of merchandise, and has not openly disclosed such an arrangement.
Finally, before anyone reacts with indignation at the suggestion that you have been influenced by a free loan, I would note that your indignation would be better received if you had disclosed the fact of the the loan of permanent "loan" of the printer on your own, and done so up front, without any prompting.
If you failed to do that, then you are in no position to protest your indignation or innocence.
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PS- all you have to do is look for my posts re" z3100 and HP's website.to know that I have been sharply critical of HP, although generally happy with my z3100. In fact, to give credit where credit is due, it was partly because of those criticisms that I was invited to beta test the z3200.
PPS- And don't get me started on HP's website!!!
Please link to anywhere you are 'sharply critical of HP' re the 3100? All I remember is a little question from you to me (who truly WAS critical with LOTS of info, part numbers, updates, pictures, inside info, etc. - and no beta invite LOL) in this thread: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....1426&st=120 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21426&st=120)
All your other posts about it revolve around downloading software - at least that I see.
What exactly are you suggesting regarding your HP provided beta test time and your posts about the 3100? All I see is someone coming to make a defending statement that was given a printer, that has not said one bad thing about the previous model, that I can find anyway.
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Yes, we had an argument, when you were insulting and insensitive towards an older gentleman who was having trouble with his printer. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you. You are free to discount or disregard my posts. If you don't trust me, fine. I won't lose sleep over it.
I have tried to relate my experiences with both the z3100 and z3200 as accurately as I can.
Bill
Please link to anywhere you are 'sharply critical of HP' re the 3100? All I remember is a little question from you to me (who truly WAS critical with LOTS of info, part numbers, updates, pictures, inside info, etc. - and no beta invite LOL) in this thread: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....1426&st=120 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21426&st=120)
All your other posts about it revolve around downloading software - at least that I see.
What exactly are you suggesting regarding your HP provided beta test time and your posts about the 3100? All I see is someone coming to make a defending statement that was given a printer, that has not said one bad thing about the previous model, that I can find anyway.
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Hi Bill,
I read your post with interest -- especially since you have had your Z3200 for a few months now. I am wondering if you are printing on gloss or satin photobase media and whether you are noticing any improvement with the notorious star-wheel track marks? I have been having issues with this and am looking for a solution. HP is suggesting that the Z3200 addresses / improves these marking issues. {see my initial post: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=28486 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28486) }
(I'd love to hear from you or anyone else who has successfully printed on gloss media.)
Cheers,
Claire (Toronto)
Hi Bill -- Not sure if you saw my post above and have any insight you are willing to share! Much appreciated.
Claire
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You didn't even look at the thread I just linked - nothing to do with the one you are talking about.
YOU are the one making the proclamation of 'I have been sharply critical of HP'. I am simply calling BS on it, as you have not been. I'm saying - show everyone the proof to back your claim - if you can.
Taking the route of ' If you don't trust me, fine. I won't lose sleep over it.' simply proves my point that you are simply an advertisement for HP since they gave you a printer.
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Hi Claire-
yes, I have been printing on gloss media with both the z3100 and z3200. Media have included Ilford GFS. Innova fibagloss (several varieties), Hp papers, and others.
With the 3100, some papers were good, others not so. the GFS showed alot of bronzing. The harmon Gloss FB AL showed bronzing, and some surface marks. with the 3200, I have printed on GFS, the new HP baryte paper, and the Innovas. I have seen no marks on any of these papers, although if you are concerned, I would definately try a test on your papers before buying.
In addition to the marks, bronzing was still a problem on many papers with the 3100. The biggest change, for me, after the improved reds, of the 3200 was the ability to vary the amount of GE on the gloss papers. I found that after upping the GE, I was able to print well without bronzing on all of the papers that failed that test on the z3100.
I'm glad they took back the 3100. Did they say how much more, if any, you would have to pay for the 3200?
Hope this helps,
Bill
Hi Bill -- Not sure if you saw my post above and have any insight you are willing to share! Much appreciated.
Claire
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Hi George-
Not sure how much more specific I can be. I haven't printed with any of the printers you listed, with either the 3100 or the 3200.
But to reiterate. Ilford GFS has bronzing (bad) on the 3100, does not on the 3200 (with increased GE). Innova Fiba glossy the same, but somewhat less of a problem with the 3100. Harmon gloss the same. HP paper that I've used on both include the Satin Pro and the ID gloss. Both have a very little bronzing on the z3100, none on the 3200.
For me, the big news is that the GFS, which I like alot, is not useable IMO with my 3100, but looks great from the 3200. Also, as I have reported elsewhere, I like the new HP Baryte (wish they'd spell it like normal people!) alot for both color and B&W.
HTH,
Bill
Hi Bill,
Can you please specify the papers you're talking about? I've been using Epson Premium Luster, Epson Semi Gloss, Epson Gloss and Hahnemuehle Fine Art Baryta with my Z3100ps GP and I haven't seen any bronzing...
Best regards
George
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Hi Claire-
yes, I have been printing on gloss media with both the z3100 and z3200. Media have included Ilford GFS. Innova fibagloss (several varieties), Hp papers, and others.
With the 3100, some papers were good, others not so. the GFS showed alot of bronzing. The harmon Gloss FB AL showed bronzing, and some surface marks. with the 3200, I have printed on GFS, the new HP baryte paper, and the Innovas. I have seen no marks on any of these papers, although if you are concerned, I would definately try a test on your papers before buying.
In addition to the marks, bronzing was still a problem on many papers with the 3100. The biggest change, for me, after the improved reds, of the 3200 was the ability to vary the amount of GE on the gloss papers. I found that after upping the GE, I was able to print well without bronzing on all of the papers that failed that test on the z3100.
I'm glad they took back the 3100. Did they say how much more, if any, you would have to pay for the 3200?
Hope this helps,
Bill
Thanks for your reply Bill. It was helpful. I am testing a Z3200 tomorrow and certainly will be trying the HP Premium ID Gloss and Satin papers. I will post results to the group. I sincerely hope the star-wheel marks become a non-issue with this new version; the other improvements you mention sound substantial and encouraging.
Cheers.
Claire
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Hi Claire-
I would not base your tests solely on the ID papers, as they are thinner and less likely to show marks, and since they are HP papers, they are less likely to show Bronzing and the other image problems. If you can, try to test at least one of the 3rd party Fine-Art papers, like from innova, GFS, or Hahnemuhle. If you do, try to get them to make a new paper type, and increase the GE a little more than the default.
Let us know what you find out.
Bill
Thanks for your reply Bill. It was helpful. I am testing a Z3200 tomorrow and certainly will be trying the HP Premium ID Gloss and Satin papers. I will post results to the group. I sincerely hope the star-wheel marks become a non-issue with this new version; the other improvements you mention sound substantial and encouraging.
Cheers.
Claire
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Nice "discovery"! As the printers were not even announced until less than a month ago, clearly anyone who has one has been testing it! Sheesh! I have to say, I resent your attitude. I would OTOH agree that anyone who recieves a free printer should definately disclose that, as it gives us more info. . .Marty, you've clearly got a big axe of your own to grind; it would be helpful if instead of running other members comments down, you clearly state your own opinion of the various options available to us.
Wlliam:
Whose posting did you read and respond to? You seriously need to read these postings more carefully, and not just tear off a response that doesn't speak to the points that are made. Because you certainly did not respond to what I wrote. Here is what I said about you: "William Morse, to his credit, voluntarily disclosed in a different thread that he received the Z3200 on a free loan from HP, and I commend him for doing so. Anyone else who is singing the virtues of the Z3200, and did not purchase the printer with their own hard-earned cash, should do the same."
I didn't criticize you, I COMMENDED you. So before you respond, read the comments more carefully.
As to your other point -- that you agree that anyone who receives a free printer either temporarily or permanently should disclose that. My point exactly. No one has done so except for you. In addition, you are flatly asserting that anyone who already has the printer clearly received it for testing, and I assume that means for free either on a temporary or permanent basis. Well, that means there are others who have NOT disclosed that. I call that a conflict of interest. They need to follow your example, and openly state their arrangement with HP. See my comments above that they are not in a position to respond with indignation, because unlike you, they did not honestly disclose their arrangement with HP.
Finally, I did not say that your views aren't legitimate or sincere. In point of fact, I said this: "At the outset, let me note that a person who receives free equipment might have sincere and positive comments." My main point that you ignored was this, and is about the unstated and sharply negative reviews from those who receive free equipment, and that will likely never be posted here: "But a less important and not publicly known individual could get cut off from free merchandise in a nanosecond after posting a sharply critical review. It is silly and just plain naive to try to tell us that is not the case. Such a person is far more likely to only share an extremely critical review on a private basis with HP and never post it here. Again, that person won't bite the hand that feeds them. And that would result in a skewed set of publicly posted positive reviews in this or any other forum. Which is why, for HP, this is a great way to ensure positive comments in reviews and on this forum. Providing merchandise for free -- either permanently or on a semi-permanent "loan" -- will do wonders with regards to guaranteeing rave reviews."
Finally, you asked what my own views are on HP. My views on HP have already been stated on this forum. If you want to know my views, just search on past postings. For the record, I paid for my printer, and I am not employed in any business related to photography or graphic arts. No conflict of interest in my case. Out of deference to my fellow forum members, there is no reason to repeat all of that here.
BUT FOR THOSE WHO ARE CONSIDERING THE PURCHASE OF A Z3200 I WILL BRIEFLY REPEAT TWO POINTS:
(1) Based upon the TOTALITY of all comments posted on this forum in the last two years about Epson, Canon and HP, it is quite clear that Epson has far superior customer and tech support. HP receives many more complaints, and there are many more reports of problems with tech and customer support. There are far fewer negative reports about Epson. (And also fewer about Canon, specifically in the last year, as Canon appears to have improved in that regard, based on reports on this forum.)
Do NOT take my word for it -- and do NOT consider isolated or anecdotal comments from the HP fan club who will defend their purchase (or their free printer) until the end of time.
READ ALL OF THE POSTINGS -- ALL OF THE POSTINGS -- AND JUDGE FOR YOURSELF.
For that matter, just scan the topics and subject headings. They speak for themselves and pretty well tell the story of all the problems with HP and their tech/customer support.
For starters, read the reports on the new firmware, and how the version for Windows wasn't posted, and Windows users had to download the Mac version. That alone speaks poorly for HP and is pretty remarkable. That has been happening for weeks, with endless complaints in this forum. Even more noteworthy, the new firmware allegedly caused serious hardware failures on early models of the Z3100. If those reports are accurate, and the hardware failure is not a coincidence (unlikely since it happened to two individuals and involved the same exact part) then that constitutes a text book case of incompetent tech support, since the firmware allegedly damaged the printer itself.
(2) In the case of the combined purchase of the Z3100 and the APS, and even after taking into account free paper or rebates, HP cut the price by an astonishing $800 in the first three months. Given that the economy is facing a down turn, it is likely that sales of consumer equipment will suffer. If past experience is a guide, HP may cut the price by $800 or more in the first three to six months. My advice is to not buy a Z3200 immediately, and wait at least six months to see if HP cuts the price dramatically after only three months as HP did previously. Unless, of course, money is no object -- and you have money to burn.
Waiting patiently will also allow you to read the reviews of the new Epson printer when it is released. We only have a few isolated reports on the performance of that printer. The new Epson is likely to be superior to either the 3100 or the 3200 based on early reports, but there haven't been any side-by-side comparisons that I'm aware of. It also might sell for about the same price, but at that price not include a spectro.
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Hi Bill,
Can you please specify the papers you're talking about? I've been using Epson Premium Luster, Epson Semi Gloss, Epson Gloss and Hahnemuehle Fine Art Baryta with my Z3100ps GP and I haven't seen any bronzing...
Best regards
George
With the mentioned papers, I doubt you'd see any problems, other than the Hahnemuhle if you don't use GE.
With all the other Barytas, if you don't use GE you will see some bronzing and gloss diff in varying amounts if you don't use GE.
They did not change anything in the grey inks so other than the interplay of the new red, there will still be quality problems on non OEM papers. Yet, big disclaimer here: take a close look at your third party paper stand if you have a chance and you'll see problems with your other favourite brands of printers too.
What HP needs is have someone to collect all the papers in the top selling spots and analyse them with a trained look at what they can do>then post it. Just saying this xxx paper works for me is simply not enough.
I did just this for one paper. Not even close to taking it as far as I would have liked to, yet it still took many many hours of testing, and a lot of ink. So with this you might also realise that the sum of the amount of testing to do so would be very important for any person to this type of report.
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(2) In the case of the combined purchase of the Z3100 and the APS, and even after taking into account free paper or rebates, HP cut the price by an astonishing $800 in the first three months. Given that the economy is facing a down turn, it is likely that sales of consumer equipment will suffer. If past experience is a guide, HP may cut the price by $800 or more in the first three to six months. My advice is to not buy a Z3200 immediately, and wait at least six months to see if HP cuts the price dramatically after only three months as HP did previously. Unless, of course, money is no object -- and you have money to burn.
Waiting patiently will also allow you to read the reviews of the new Epson printer when it is released. We only have a few isolated reports on the performance of that printer. The new Epson is likely to be superior to either the 3100 or the 3200 based on early reports, but there haven't been any side-by-side comparisons that I'm aware of. It also might sell for about the same price, but at that price not include a spectro.
Waiting to buy is always good advice but HP's price drop in the past is not unique. Bottom line, buy something new when you need it (can't do without it). It applies to computers, cars, digital camers, cell phones, TVs, printers and many other products. A 10-15% discount or more after the first 3-6 months of a new product is the norm, not the exception. The slower the product is moving (like a new competitor in a new market segment), the quicker/deeper the discount. (Have you seen car prices recently?) My opinion, not based on tallying posts or searching the net, is based on 20 years as a graphic designer working with marketing depts. who have operated just as I have mentioned.
Also beware of the myth that newer is better. I believe the printer technology is so good now that we are already seeing diminishing returns on image quality vs. time spent to improve that quality. Saying a new printer is likely to be superior in IQ to another, at this stage in the technology is too strong a word for all but very specific examples of images on specific papers for each printer. Reliability, support and results on your favorite papers are probably the most important decisions to make (as many have posted about).
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Marty,
about your remark #1:
A logical explination can be that, for an unknown reason, this forum is visited relatively much more by people that have HP printers then ownwers of Epson or Canon's. Another reason could be that HP buyers are more vocal about things they don't like and Canon buyers are too shy to speak up :-).
The point a want to make is: you can't never judge product quality based on what people vent on a forum, it's allways biased, statistical unsound, for reason we cannot control.
about your remark #2:
in such a modus one can wait forever, or just wait for the next update, perhaps the Z3300 (just kidd'n ), It's a personal choice, when I bought my printer I payed 2100 euro's, today, 8 months later it can be had for less then 1400 euro's. I knew this would likely happen, but I could also have died yesterday and I would have missed out on the fun I had last few months....
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...snip... I believe the printer technology is so good now that we are already seeing diminishing returns on image quality vs. time spent to improve that quality. Saying a new printer is likely to be superior in IQ to another, at this stage in the technology is too strong a word for all but very specific examples of images on specific papers for each printer. Reliability, support and results on your favorite papers are probably the most important decisions to make (as many have posted about).
O so true!
I visited Photokina and at the Innova booth they showed the same photo printed on different printers Epson 11-something, Canon 6100 and HP Z3200, okay the prints looked different but was one better then the other? My Very Humble Opinion: NO, not at all, at best it's a matter of taste.
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O so true!
I visited Photokina and at the Innova booth they showed the same photo printed on different printers Epson 11-something, Canon 6100 and HP Z3200, okay the prints looked different but was one better then the other? My Very Humble Opinion: NO, not at all, at best it's a matter of taste.
Innova had a Z3200 a Canon 6100, Epson 7900, and x8800 series too.
Agreed on most prints they would be similar , as they should be, at long as everything is working as expected.
At the time of release of the Canon and HP pigment printers the improvements were going to be small over the next releases. This has proven true for printers. Where big advances are made are in media. They definitely show huge differences between brands and types like never before.
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If the z3100's are drastically marked down to make way for the z3200, if I were buying today, I would jump on one of those z3100's. The z3200 doesn't look to be drastically different from the z3100, more just a tweak to go from excellent to just a bit better than excellent. YMMV.
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Also beware of the myth that newer is better. I believe the printer technology is so good now that we are already seeing diminishing returns on image quality vs. time spent to improve that quality. Saying a new printer is likely to be superior in IQ to another, at this stage in the technology is too strong a word for all but very specific examples of images on specific papers for each printer. Reliability, support and results on your favorite papers are probably the most important decisions to make (as many have posted about).
Exactly so. We're now at the point where image quality is so very high with wide format printers from all 3 of the big players that it's essentially pixel peeping on paper. You can expend an awful lot of time, money and effort exploring every new paper offering or inkset in search of printing nirvana (I know; I've tried!). Or, you can settle on an optimal media combination that really works for your images, and get to work producing your art. It's no different from folks back in the darkroom days spending endless hours on test strips and evaluating different developer/film combinations to optimize the grain/sharpness balance. Sooner or later you have to move on to productive printing, or you're just playing around.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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Hi Guys, this is my first posting,so I hope I have it right!
I am considering purchasing a Z3100 or the new Z3200. I noticed that some of the prices mentioned here are as low as 1400 euro's for the Z3100. Can you tell me where this offer is available? I live in Dublin,Ireland.
thanks,
Gerry
Marty,
about your remark #1:
A logical explination can be that, for an unknown reason, this forum is visited relatively much more by people that have HP printers then ownwers of Epson or Canon's. Another reason could be that HP buyers are more vocal about things they don't like and Canon buyers are too shy to speak up :-).
The point a want to make is: you can't never judge product quality based on what people vent on a forum, it's allways biased, statistical unsound, for reason we cannot control.
about your remark #2:
in such a modus one can wait forever, or just wait for the next update, perhaps the Z3300 (just kidd'n ), It's a personal choice, when I bought my printer I payed 2100 euro's, today, 8 months later it can be had for less then 1400 euro's. I knew this would likely happen, but I could also have died yesterday and I would have missed out on the fun I had last few months....
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Hi Guys, this is my first posting,so I hope I have it right!
I am considering purchasing a Z3100 or the new Z3200. I noticed that some of the prices mentioned here are as low as 1400 euro's for the Z3100. Can you tell me where this offer is available? I live in Dublin,Ireland.
thanks,
Gerry
Gerry,
sorry that I seem to have implied I bought a Z3100, it was a Canon iPF5100 (17") I bought here in the Netherlands, currently going as low as € 1400,-- The Canon 6100 (24") trade for round and about € 2500,--
www.fotokonijnenberg.nl / www.kamera-express.nl
I have no further affiliation with both shops other than beeing a customer.
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Hey All,
We have had a Z3200 in the office for a little while now and I'm quite impressed. I'm going to be posting a review on our website sometime next week. I'll cut to the chase and say that in one sense the updates are minor, and yet at the same time they have a non trivial impact on the printer as a whole. Almost all of the issues associated with the Z3100 have been addressed. The modification of the Red is fairly drastic, comparing 9880 prints to the Z3200 the differences are quite noticeable. I've actually done some testing of the Epson 7900 too and while I'm going to hold of an real comparison's of the color gamut until Epson finalizes the shipping firmware/drivers the Z3200 looks like it's going to be a strong performer. So far looks like the star wheel marks are a non issue. One of the main differences is the degree of control offered in the "media set" creation, the option to have star wheels "up" or "down" as well as controlling the amount of ink and gloss enhancer is a real improvement and should allow better results on a wider range of 3rd party medias. I don't know if this was answered but the Chromatic Red comes with a new print head as well so sorry no easy way to switch out the Z3100 inks with the newer inks....trust me it was the first thing i thought of. Any way, I'll post a link when the review is up, hopefully the Epson 7900 review will follow a week or so later.
Oh and I'm sorry to have to agree with bold blue type but I have to completely disagree that Epson has "far superior" support. I've worked with Epson and HP closely for years and they both have their problems. I also might suggest that a good reseller (any good reseller) should be able to solve many problems before going to the OEM, and if needed will help to expedite and resolve problems as they arise. That said I wont let HP totally them off the hook, or Epson either, where they do have problems. HP's wait times can be quite frustrating. That said their onsite support has been consistently strong, and if you get to the right level of support they are usually quite helpful. Over all though it has not been my experience that Epson offers drastically better support. Just my opinion.
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do you still have to remove the print heads occasinally, to clean them to prevent them from dripping blobs on prints?
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I've never had that happen yet.
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I've actually done some testing of the Epson 7900 too and while I'm going to hold of an real comparison's of the color gamut until Epson finalizes the shipping firmware/drivers the Z3200 looks like it's going to be a strong performer. Any way, I'll post a link when the review is up, hopefully the Epson 7900 review will follow a week or so later.
Oh and I'm sorry to have to agree with bold blue type but I have to completely disagree that Epson has "far superior" support. Just my opinion.
It would be really helpful if you included a really candid and forthright comparison of the two printers. There are always many glowing reviews that are posted, each one focusing on why this particular printer or camera is the greatest known to mankind. What we, the consumers, really need is an honest comparison of the different models.
UPDATE ON POST -- I have deleted my long list of questions and moved them to a new thread that specifically compares the two printers. Neil Snape suggested that I should have started a new topic. Neil is correct, so I did so. I apologize for any confusion that doing so may cause.
I hope you won't just post two gushing reviews for both. One review, that candidly covers both printers and their relative strengths and weaknesses, would be a very valuable service.
And thanks for the response on Epson versus HP on customer service. But I think Marty has a point. Others have noted that forums tend to include reports of problems more than positive experiences. OK, those with gripes may complain louder, and Marty may have over done it with bold and blue.
But Marty, to his credit, didn't ask us to believe him, or to agree only with his own opinion. He urged us to look at all of the postings in this forum and we should judge for ourselves. I did that, and my impression is that he has a point, as there are more complaints and reported problems about HP than about Epson. The fact that those with positive experiences may not post is not really the point. I accept that those who have no problems -- with either HP or Epson -- don't post here. But those who post with problems do it more frequently with HP than Epson. Based on my own quick review of the postings -- I accepted Marty's challenge and judged for myself -- that appears to be true even if you don't count any of Marty's postings.
So let me go back to my request. The HP Z3200 may sell for about the same price as the new Epson 7900. The HP has a spectro built in at that price and Epson does not. But I already own a separate spectro. So, considering the reports on the forum about HP, I want to know how the Epson 7900 actually compares to the HP Z3200 as a mechanical unit, how it handles paper, how it loads, how fact it prints, and how the color gamut and quality of the prints compares.
An honest comparison would be a great service for all of us. Again, based on your past postings and technical expertise, I think Julian is the best person to provide it.
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I've never had that happen yet.
Yeah had two Z3100's in the office for over a year and never had that happen either. One customer did have that problem on the first set of heads which were found to be defective and were replaced. hmmm actually now that you mention it I do recall seeing a bit of ink dropped on a print once...I ust went back and reviewed a bunch of past prints and in one of the old ones there are two small drops of ink, maybe this is what you saw. I think this happened after the printer had been off for some time, and I haven't noticed this since (in many hundreds of prints). I think you have some defective heads or something else is amiss, I would call HP support or your reseller and have that addressed. This is not part of the normal upkeep.
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Alan,
I posted a review of the Z3100 when it came out and all of your issues were covered. Not sure where this can currently be found, our website is being overhauled this weekend. This review while not a complete rewrite will be a overhaul of the Z3100 review. It will also be updated with comparisons and the conclusions will be revised to account for industry wide changes. I have my biases like any reviewer. but I have owned both Epson's and HP's both personally and professionally, and I have relationships with members of their sales and tech teams and know very good people on both sides. I don't have as close a relationship with Canon in the print arena, I can only judge on my limited experience, and so tend to keep my mouth shut. Any way, what I'm trying to say is that if I say something glowing about a product it's because I think it's great, not because it has a sticker on it that says Epson or HP. And dont worry if I think something is a bad idea (like sticking the roll feed on the back of a printer) I'll say it. I will however make these two separate reviews, too much info, and the 7990 is still not finalized so gamut projections are hard to nail down. I will make references to the competition in each review so I think you'll get what your looking for. Also, Marty, don't mean to come down too hard on you. I know some people have had awful experiences with HP, not trying to deny that. It's just with such a large organization the quality of the tech support varies by department, year, and product. If you do have a problem by all means make yourself heard, it is true that people do monitor the forums from time to time and they listen to the complains, and do try and address them. I just still cant agree that Epson overall is that much better, but again just my opinion. One last note, the Z3200 was perhaps one of the most radically different printers that HP had released to this date and that is what most of the discussions centered around. The Epson's line has more or less seen a careful evolution since the 7/9600 was released and so a lot of the bugs have been worked out and now they are a fairly stable and known entity. I will say that the strength of a product can potentially be gauged by how often you have to call tech support in the first place, in that respect I think that Epson's professional line is very strong.
Also if anyone has any additional info they would like please let me know by Monday and I'll try and address it. Please PM me if you want to discuss offline as well.
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Alan,
Any way, what I'm trying to say is that if I say something glowing about a product it's because I think it's great, not because it has a sticker on it that says Epson or HP. And dont worry if I think something is a bad idea (like sticking the roll feed on the back of a printer) I'll say it. I will however make these two separate reviews, too much info, and the 7990 is still not finalized so gamut projections are hard to nail down. I will make references to the competition in each review so I think you'll get what your looking for.
I didn't mean to suggest anything critical with regards to you, and apologize if you took it that way. What I was trying to say is that I hoped you wouldn't just write two reviews that focus on the positive aspects of the two printers without making any comparisons, because that is not nearly as useful. There will be plenty of positive reviews of the two printers, and the reviews will praise their many positive features. But that still leaves those of us who are considering which one to buy at a loss.
Here is the bottom line. You have both printers. Very few people have both. You can compare both. Even fewer are qualified to compare both. You are.
So I am hoping you do just that, for those of us who are looking at both. If you can make comparisons in both reviews, and comment on how one compares to the other, that would be great. If that is based on beta drivers, I still think it is fair to do so, with that stated stipulation.
Thanks very much.