Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: narikin on August 01, 2008, 05:18:30 pm
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sorry for another monitor question, but I'm in need of a serious 30" monitor for a lot of printing to be done in the next 3 months.
LCD or LED? HP/Dell/Samsung/Eizo/NEC?
(Apple seem to have lost touch with monitor technical progress...)
currently leaning towards NEC LCD3090WQXi-BK for $2200 which gets many good reviews
but HP L3065 at $1300 is tempting too
Eizo CG301W is not convincing for some reason, oh yes - its $5000 and the last ($4000) Eizo monitor I had was junk that had to be returned.
all the above have close to ARGB expanded gamuts, which I prefer.
have I overlooked anything major? - the LED Samsung XL30 is pricey but I cant find a serious user review of it to know if its a real leap forward (being LED) or just marketing BS.
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I just got the NEC 2690wuxi and it's great. Color, contrast, sharpness and size all work well and for $1100 versus $2200 (for 30" model) I was willing to give up 4" diag. in size which isn't much when you look at it. Works with my Eye1 calibrator as well. The main downside to the Apple monitors is that they are too bright which makes them tough to calibrate. The NEC brightness goes down far enough for a good calibration.
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I am really happy with my HP LP3065.
Tom
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I just got the NEC 2690wuxi and it's great. Color, contrast, sharpness and size all work well and for $1100 versus $2200 (for 30" model) I was willing to give up 4" diag. in size which isn't much when you look at it. Works with my Eye1 calibrator as well. The main downside to the Apple monitors is that they are too bright which makes them tough to calibrate. The NEC brightness goes down far enough for a good calibration.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=212422\")
idem ditto for over a year
Ernst Dinkla
Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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good to know that NEC has a positive reception here.
I do need 30" though - its not just the 4" screen size, its the extra resolution that comes with it - more pixels. Once you get used to that amount of desktop its hard to step back.
it seems nearly everyone is going close to ARGB these days - some make a song and dance about it, other dont!
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Loving the NEC 3090 driven with SpectraView II software. My only beef is it puts out some heat (but nothing like the old CRTs).
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Loving the NEC 3090 driven with SpectraView II software. My only beef is it puts out some heat (but nothing like the old CRTs).
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thanks Andrew - does the 30" come with Spectraview 'in the box' or is that an extra?
I have an i1 photo so another puck is not wanted, but the software would be nice
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thanks Andrew - does the 30" come with Spectraview 'in the box' or is that an extra?
I have an i1 photo so another puck is not wanted, but the software would be nice
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Its extra. You can use your EyeOne and just purchase the software (US $99).
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And your feeling on that unit (30) vs. the 26 inch?
Its extra. You can use your EyeOne and just purchase the software (US $99).
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Andrew, do you use the shades? I've been looking for some for the 2690, but can't find in stock anywhere.
As for size, everytime I've moved up to a larger monitor, I can never imagine going back to a smaller one. I suspect I'll end up with a 30" (I like the Nec) and feel the same.
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And your feeling on that unit (30) vs. the 26 inch?
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Well one's bigger... I have both, I like em both. If size matters, you'll prefer the 30.
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Andrew, do you use the shades?
Shades?
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Loving the NEC 3090 driven with SpectraView II software. My only beef is it puts out some heat (but nothing like the old CRTs).
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What makes the Spectraview software worth buying? If I'm already using an Eye1 with software and get a calibrated monitor what does the Spectraview add?
Thanks, Doug
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What makes the Spectraview software worth buying? If I'm already using an Eye1 with software and get a calibrated monitor what does the Spectraview add?
Thanks, Doug
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It turns this into a "Smart Monitor" which now utilizes all the hardware built into the unit for calibration and profiling. Do a search for SpectraView here, the product has been highly discussed.
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It turns this into a "Smart Monitor" which now utilizes all the hardware built into the unit for calibration and profiling. Do a search for SpectraView here, the product has been highly discussed.
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From what I understand Spectraview does the calibration automatically once I set the parameters so I don't have to manually adjust anything on screen (contrast, etc.). I used to get this feature for free when I used my EyeOne II with my Lacie CRT monitor. I guess I'll have to decide whether it's worth the extra $100.
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Just interested in any differences however minor in these monitors (other than size.)
Well one's bigger... I have both, I like em both. If size matters, you'll prefer the 30.
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A solid thumbs up for the NEC LCD3090.
Simply beautiful and obviously made by people who are concerned with accurate color.
Get the SpectraView kit - necessary to pull the best out of the monitor.
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Shades?
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Should have said hood. I was having trouble finding one in stock in Canada, but have found one, and ordered.
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I have the Monaco Optix with the XR Pro colorimeter. Will this colorimeter work with the SpectraView II software?
If I'm going to shell out $2200.00 for a monitor, $100.00 for the software is chump change.
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I have the Monaco Optix with the XR Pro colorimeter. Will this colorimeter work with the SpectraView II software?
If I'm going to shell out $2200.00 for a monitor, $100.00 for the software is chump change.
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I expect so, check w NEC
by the way, you can get the monitor for $2000.
let me know where you find the software, or maybe its just an NEC download purchase?
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it is supported, there's a good thread elsewhere on this site:
the last post (as of now) has a list of supported pucks.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=25887 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25887)
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I have the Monaco Optix with the XR Pro colorimeter. Will this colorimeter work with the SpectraView II software?
Yes.
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Loving the NEC 3090 driven with SpectraView II software. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
I am reading your book and highly respect your opionion. I am somewhat confused about the pros/cons of getting a wide gamut display given current 8 bit technology in graphics card and LCD output.
I have seen your balloon analogy (a fixed number of color points will be further apart on a bigger balloon), Karl Langs statements about 0.8dE becomming 2dE when moving from an sRGB monitor to an AdobeRGB capable monitor, and others' statements about sRGB having ~30% less volume than AdobeRGB. While I understand volume comparisons in physical space, I am just not quite sure how to understand volume comparisons in color space.
I have not been able to see a wide gamut display side by side with a sRGB display (say NEC 3090 next to a NEC2490), and don't know what the difference will be in practice.
Will a properly calibrated (with Spectraview and an i1 Display2) nec 3090 make it difficult to edit, say, portraits, because there is just too big a distnace between adjacent RGB values on a wide gamut display? My wife does wedding photography, so that is important to her, while for my photography, the wider gamut is very attractive. For B/W work, what would the effect of the wide gamut be, in parctice?
Further, is a device like the i1 display2 even able to measure properly the whole gamut of a wide gamut display (I know that NEC provided a special wide gamut puck for the NEC 21 inch LCD backlit display. Further, according to Reid reviews, Karl Lang mentioned that calibrating/profiling the NEC2690 was problematic, something that was not a problem with the NEC 2490 narrower gamut model). What has your experience been calibrating/profiling these monitors? And what is your take on Karls statements regarding the the advantage of sRGB gamut monitors for most jobs?
Yours and others' opinions and experience would be very much appreciated.
Regards,
Tore
PS: I understand that as long as graphics cards and LCDs put out 8 bit per channel, one should ideally have both an sRGB monitor for editing photos that stay within that space and an adobeRGB capable monitor for editing those photos that span a wider space. I am considering the NEC 2490/2690/3090, which I understand are excellent monitors with quite different gamuts. However, space constraints, fincancial constraints etc mean I can only get one monitor.
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Pro's of wide gamut displays:
You can view colors that fall outside the typical sRGB display.
Cons
The colorimetric values are farther apart in such a display so very subtle colors are more difficult to see. The deltaE values of say 123/23/45 and 123/24/45 are farther apart than in a smaller gamut display.
So, if you work with very subtle colors, you'll see them and how the differ better on a smaller gamut display (at the expense of saturated colors that fall outside sRGB display gamut). If you work with saturated colors that fall outside sRGB display, you can't view those colors (they are out of gamut).
Neither is something to lose sleep over. Someday we will hopefully have displays that can produce both behaviors, on the fly (the new DreamColor Display, which really is aimed at film production can do this). Or have one of each; wide gamut and sRGB like display.
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Thanks Andrew.
Since the gamut of the lcd3090 is very large (if not as large as the 2180 LED backlit display), I wonder if you know if the standard i1 display 2 might have difficulties with measuring the wide gamut of the lcd3090?
I note that NEC write(http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/TechnologyPapers/LCD2180WG-LEDTechPaper_121605.pdf) :
"The output color spectrum of the LCD2180WGLED
display presents a unique challenge to
the current generation of colorimeter devices
which were never designed to be used on such
a display
...
To overcome this, the optional SpectraViewII
color calibration package for the LCD2180WGLED
display includes a custom calibrated
Gretag iOne Display V2 colorimeter that has
been specifically calibrated for accurate
measurement of the display."
Regards and thanks for your input,
Tore
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Since the gamut of the lcd3090 is very large (if not as large as the 2180 LED backlit display), I wonder if you know if the standard i1 display 2 might have difficulties with measuring the wide gamut of the lcd3090?
problems? No although the white point measurements will not be exact (mine was off by about 500K). Having a colorimeter with a filter matrix expecting such a gamut would be preferable but you can use the current hardware and get good results.
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problems? No although the white point measurements will not be exact (mine was off by about 500K). Having a colorimeter with a filter matrix expecting such a gamut would be preferable but you can use the current hardware and get good results.
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Andrew,
Thanks for your quick and informative response.
Regards,
Tore
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Having a colorimeter with a filter matrix expecting such a gamut would be preferable but you can use the current hardware and get good results.
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Andrew,
Given your warm recommendation of the NEC 3090, I ordered it.
I was wondering if the NEC SVII-LEDKIT for the LED backlit LCD2180WG LED would be the best choice, because it must have the filter matrix you mention - the gamuts of the LCD2180WG LED and the lcd3090 being quite close?
I am deciding between:
i) NEC SVII-LEDKIT - SpectraView LED Colorimeter & Software - Custom calibrated for the LCD2180WG-LED-BK - roughly 350 dollars
ii) dtp-94 and the Spectraview II software - roughly 270 dollars.
What would you suggest as best equipment and best practice for people calibrating wide gamut LCDs?
Does the use of a spectrophotometer improve results (unfortunately my colormunki is not supported by Spectraview)?
Please excuse if these are ignorant questions.
Regards,
Tore
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I was wondering if the NEC SVII-LEDKIT for the LED backlit LCD2180WG LED would be the best choice, because it must have the filter matrix you mention - the gamuts of the LCD2180WG LED and the lcd3090 being quite close?
I'm not sure that's recommended or not. The filters in that kit are mated to the LED, you might not want to go that route. I think you'll be fine with an off the shelf EyeOne Display or Optix.
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yes, that special kit is for the LED (not LCD) monitor.
if that one and only 20" LED model is what you are getting, then fine.
but if you are getting any of the LCD models, including the wide gamut LCD ones, then it should be the Spectraview software plus a regular monitor puck such as the x-rite/ i1
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I'm not sure that's recommended or not. The filters in that kit are mated to the LED, you might not want to go that route. I think you'll be fine with an off the shelf EyeOne Display or Optix.
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Andrew,
Yet again: Thanks for your clear and unpretentious response. I think I might just go with the i1 display 2.
From NECs technical paper ( [a href=\"http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/TechnologyPapers/LCD2180WG-LEDTechPaper_121605.pdf]http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/Te...aper_121605.pdf[/url] - page 8 text box on the far right )it seems that they say the colorimeter can be used with other displays as well:
"... the optional SpectraViewII
color calibration package for the LCD2180WGLED
display includes a custom calibrated
Gretag iOne Display V2 colorimeter that has
been specifically calibrated for accurate
measurement of the display.The device can
continue to be used to measure standard LCD
displays as well, if a multi-monitor configuration
is used."
Regards,
Tore
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yes, that special kit is for the LED (not LCD) monitor.
if that one and only 20" LED model is what you are getting, then fine.
but if you are getting any of the LCD models, including the wide gamut LCD ones, then it should be the Spectraview software plus a regular monitor puck such as the x-rite/ i1
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Narikin,
Thanks for your reply. I could be wrong, but seems the NEC technical paper on the 20" LED backlit monitor says that you can use the special colorimeter for other monitors as well (see response to Andrew above). But I am in no position to say if it just works, is better/worse, on other wide gamut displays.
I would like to hear any insights you have.
Regards,
Tore
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Contacted my sources inside NEC, they say for the 3090, got EyeOne Display-2, not the special LED branded unit.
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Contacted my sources inside NEC, they say for the 3090, got EyeOne Display-2, not the special LED branded unit.
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Andrew,
Just saw your reply. I greatly appreciate you doing that. I will definetely get the EyeOne Display-2 and Spectraview II then.
Regards,
Tore
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way late to this thread
having both the 2490 and a HP 3065 side by side the HP does show some wider gamut colors that the 2490 does not
say fall leaves for example the reds sometimes fall out of the 2490 and the red just tends to look the same across the leaf where the HP shows the colors continuing
also questions on why SVII as example on my 2490
my thoughts are nicer shadow detail and better color
using DTP94 and color eyes is very nice but SV gets you even nicer gradients and nicer shadow detail its not earth shattering but when you are spending this much its worth buying SV to get every bit out of the monitor you can
using Bill Atkinsons test print with all the colored shots as a example the one shot of the fall trees and the path leading into the woods using color eyes and SV to calibrate the 2490
I can see more detail in the tree trunks with SV and the fall colors are much nicer the reds and yellows are more distinct
prints coming off my IPF8000 with my own custom profiles match the SV colors a touch more accurately over the color eyes profile to give real world why I use SV
as far as wide gamut displays and wider colors or whatever you want to call them when adjusting say a brides face
I have never noticed a problem with the wide gamut displays being to much a jump and causing problems
also editing images for color which is a major part of our business for other photographers
any monitor that is high quality being wide gamut or not can both do the job in my eye
using them to proof nice prints that might push the adobe colors the high gamut is nice to have
since the NEC 30 was not around a bit ago when I bought the HP we needed a few 30 inch for layout and kept the NEC for accuracy now the NEC 30 inch will be replacing our apple 30 inch very soon
in the near future I will be able to give a thought on the NEC 30 vs the 2490 side by side
also for real world people depending on your business or living since I dont shoot commercial anymore and just weddings
for a wedding workflow where color accuracy is important but not as important as commercial a monitor like the HP 3065 vs a 24 or 265 inch monitor might be a nice benefit with the size
are the NEC more accurate and nicer sure they are
but the 30 inch real estate will help workflow out so something to think about
wedding color is more about feeling IMHO than dead accuracy
best of both is of course the 30 inch NEC
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I think ColorMunki would make an ideal measuring instrument for the wide-gamut displays, but I don't know whether the software can handle it - yet.
Edmund
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I think ColorMunki would make an ideal measuring instrument for the wide-gamut displays, but I don't know whether the software can handle it - yet.
Edmund
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I think it may be possible to calibrate the display with i1d2, and only profile it with CM. There might only be a problem with the white point calibration, but there also might be some smart solution, depending on the profiler type (at least it's easy in case of SVII)
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I think it may be possible to calibrate the display with i1d2, and only profile it with CM. There might only be a problem with the white point calibration, but there also might be some smart solution, depending on the profiler type (at least it's easy in case of SVII)
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The colorimeters are dependent on display tech, the CM is a spectro so it's less prone to obsolescence. One tends to use a calibrator for a bunch of displays, better have one that can do a lot of stuff.
Edmund
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The colorimeters are dependent on display tech, the CM is a spectro so it's less prone to obsolescence. One tends to use a calibrator for a bunch of displays, better have one that can do a lot of stuff.
Edmund
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I'm not totally happy with the linearization done by i1pro spectrophotometer. It's perfect in lights and midtones, but it shows some banding and color shifts in shadows. Of course, I also prefer the idea of having something that can calibrate and profile anything I want.
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I ordered the 3090 about a month ago after returning from an advanced print class taught by John Paul Caponigro and Mac Holbert -- and a couple of emails with Andrew R -- and I am ecstatic with the unit. Had to do a bit of work to track down the Spectra II software since it did not show up as an option with the original order screen ... so I did not get to properly calibrate for about a week after I got it ... used the GMcBeth software for the interim and --yes -- the Sprectra II is a lot better for the 3090......
The unit is outstanding and puts the Apple 30" Cinema display next to it to shame -- better luminance, contrast and ... just flat out is easier on the eyes......
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I'm not totally happy with the linearization done by i1pro spectrophotometer. It's perfect in lights and midtones, but it shows some banding and color shifts in shadows. Of course, I also prefer the idea of having something that can calibrate and profile anything I want.
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Maybe it's not the spectro, just the software/monitor combo you are using ?
I recommend you drive the i1 with Basiccolor or ColorEyes software.
Edmund
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Maybe it's not the spectro, just the software/monitor combo you are using ?
I recommend you drive the i1 with Basiccolor or ColorEyes software.
Edmund
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I use Nec 2190UXi with Spectraview II profiler. It calibrates TRC using 12bit internal monitor LUT, with 256 steps, average low light measurements, and best grayscale color tracking. It gives good results in light parts, or when the panel's set to high luminosity levels, but the darker the sample is, the worse effect it gives, so I suspect it is a matter of device.
BasICColor doesn't work with non-Spectraview Nec, and the trick that turns SV mode doesn't work in my panel, but I'll take a look at ColorEyes.
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BasICColor doesn't work with non-Spectraview Nec, and the trick that turns SV mode doesn't work in my panel, but I'll take a look at ColorEyes.
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ColorEyes will bring nothing to the table since you now lose the communication with the SpectraView and turn a smart monitor into a dumb one.
IF you have both a Coloriemeter (better for dark measurements) and a Spectrophotometer, there is a way, at least with the US SpectraView software to use both; Spectrophotometer for making a custom white and colorimeter for the rest of the calibration. Email me an I'll provide the instructions. No idea if this would work with BasICColor version but it might.