Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: clawery on July 22, 2008, 10:57:20 am
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Phase One has just formed a strategic alliance with the German based company Hartblei. Hartblei has a record of producing high end tilt/shift lenses for small format and medium format cameras.
Most lens parts and assembly is done at the Hartblei factory in Kiev Ukraine, but several parts and processes are also produced in Germany.
The general purpose of this Strategic Alliance is to explore opportunities of future lens development for the Phase One 645 camera.
You can go to our web site and see the specs:
http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/07/...t-shift-lenses/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/07/10/the-p65-and-phase-one-tilt-shift-lenses/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Hi Chris,
I think you forgot the attachement. Can you tell us if the optics have been redesigned from the original Super Rotator?
Phase One has just formed a strategic alliance with the German based company Hartblei. Hartblei has a record of producing high end tilt/shift lenses for small format and medium format cameras.
Most lens parts and assembly is done at the Hartblei factory in Kiev Ukraine, but several parts and processes are also produced in Germany.
The general purpose of this Strategic Alliance is to explore opportunities of future lens development for the Phase One 645 camera.
Attached is a PDF to give you more of the specs on it:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi Chris,
I think you forgot the attachement. Can you tell us if the optics have been redesigned from the original Super Rotator?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=209903\")
Sorry.. The PDF would not upload. Please use the link.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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It looks like the old design.
Just tried mine this weekend on a Canon 5D and wasn't really impressed with it's sharpness (actually it was and is horrible).
What can you expect from an optical design that wasn't intended for anything digital? The base of this lens is the Mir-26, mounted in the Hartblei shift/tilt mount.
http://kievaholic.com/lensspecifications.html (http://kievaholic.com/lensspecifications.html)
http://kievaholic.com/faq_lenses.html (http://kievaholic.com/faq_lenses.html)
What might be the idea behind this offering? Really strange.
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It looks like the old design.
Thanks for the update,Chris,but if the new lens is,in fact, a rebadged 45mm Super-Rotator
at triple the price then I don't think it will create any goodwill for Phase
Mark
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It looks like the old design.
Thanks for the update,Chris,but if the new lens is,in fact, a rebadged 45mm Super-Rotator
at triple the price then I don't think it will create any goodwill for Phase
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not to take this off topic, but when you go to invest in medium format there are two things that a professional must have. #1 does it do the job (that covers a lot of different territory for a lot of people).
#2 Does it have a wow factor. Don't underestimate the wow factor, because if it's something that you sit on the sticks in the studio and clients go wow, you've covered a lot of postitive ground even before the first shutter is clicked.
The tilt shift, I guess we'll find out eventually if it's modern good or old Boris soft, (I kind of like ol' Boris soft, but that only works 5% of the time).
The thing I don't understand about medium format is the mindset in how they are sold.
I know all of the backs produce an amazing image I know that if you want to you can learn the workflow of any of them, but I also know that when you put down the price of a BMW you start getting into luxury goods territory.
I think it's funny and gwtifh pretty much hit on it in a round about way. He/she talks about what works in the world of location advertising, but if you get below the surface, it still comes down to the wow factor. Does gwtifh have a camera that turns him/her on. Are the clients, talent and crew impressed, or is it just another day at the office?
When you open that camera case up, does it glow like tthe briefcase in Pulp Fiction, or does it look like something that should be sitting on a Best Buy counter?
Once again for the kind of money these machines require, I would go with the Pulp Fiction scenario.
JR
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Russel,
I agree with you that when I talk with a prospective fine art print buyer I sometimes get the question of what do you shoot with. Some of my print sales are requests (specific skylines or area icons) and my 1dsII just doesn't wow them anymore. This even when I can show them a 90" print made from stitched files.
On the opposite side of the argument I do think that for MFD to be long-term profitable it will require higher sales volumes. That is where my type of shooter also plays a roll. I make enough on sales to help offset my equipment addiction for my landscape shooting. For the average shooter to move up to MFD the costs will need to come down on the backs to generate higher sales volumes for Phase or Hassy. Otherwise Canon/Nikon will win out on the cost/benefit analysis. I am purchasing a MFD (30 or 39mp) system this December. I can only do this because I have a good job and an understanding wife.
For most in my situation (that I have spoken with) the prices are too out of reach to jump from Canon/Nikon to MFD. Phase One's latest refurb pricing is a good step forward for many.
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One more remark: Hartblei has published some resolution figures for the 45mm. Doesn't really match with the new 6 micron sensors...
http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm (http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm)
And for the nostalgia fans:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...artblei45.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/hartblei45.shtml)
Just my 5 cent.
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I was using the 45mm super rotator with my P45+ and it just wasn't usable for me because of sharpness. I would never want to use it for architecture. I sold it on. I hope they can design a tilt shift that is lighter, sharper and better designed.
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Russel,
I agree with you that when I talk with a prospective fine art print buyer I sometimes get the question of what do you shoot with. Some of my print sales are requests (specific skylines or area icons) and my 1dsII just doesn't wow them anymore. This even when I can show them a 90" print made from stitched files.
On the opposite side of the argument I do think that for MFD to be long-term profitable it will require higher sales volumes. That is where my type of shooter also plays a roll. I make enough on sales to help offset my equipment addiction for my landscape shooting. For the average shooter to move up to MFD the costs will need to come down on the backs to generate higher sales volumes for Phase or Hassy. Otherwise Canon/Nikon will win out on the cost/benefit analysis. I am purchasing a MFD (30 or 39mp) system this December. I can only do this because I have a good job and an understanding wife.
For most in my situation (that I have spoken with) the prices are too out of reach to jump from Canon/Nikon to MFD. Phase One's latest refurb pricing is a good step forward for many.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Anybody that thinks about medium format digital loves photography. Whether they work with a 50 person crew or shoot landscapes at sunup by themself, you just don't think about these pruchases unless you really love photography.
Not talking digital here (god let's don't talk digital) but let's talk cameras.
If you had to buy one new, available camera to use for the rest of your life, what would it be?
After all, when you talking $40,000 digital backs, or $20,000 upgrades (oops I mentioned digital backs), you had better love the camera you put them on.
Two of my friends that are very good photographers.
Both do very well, have a lot of success, but don't think they don't keep a eye on the bottom line.
One shoots architecture and I think he's probably the best in the world at it. He recently bought two Alpas.
Now knowing him, I doubt seriously if it changed his work a great deal, but I do know he believes it bettered his work, so he bought them and though he proably won't admit it, he bought it because he likes it. It makes him feel good.
The second photographer shoots people and has owned about every film and digital camera made.
He is now back to using the Canons and they do the job, he gets the shot, but the cameras don't stir his soul and I am sure that he will eventually go back to a camera, (probably medium format) that makes him happy, because after all you just have one life and when you open that case does it glow, or does it look like a snapshot from a Big Box retailer?
Really, this isn't always about dimensions, weight, mtf charts, or pixel size.
It's about what makes you feel good.
I don't think any of us need a reason for that.
JR
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Yeah, I was really disappointed to see this "new" lens. I just have to say "idiots". Yes, Phase & Hasselblad are idiots coming out with these band-aid T/S "solutions". Just more "duct tape" as I see it.
What is about MF that seems to involve duct tape & bailing wire? I mean, here we are marching forward & yes MF has come a long way (I think the duct tape is in less demand in getting things to work together) but it still is not reasurring to me in attracting my $$$$ investment. I want the best bang for my bucks, not a large tax write off. I'd rather put the money in my back pocket frankly then invest it in gear that is still not totally prime time. I am sure there are many who will argue this statement but I really don't care. I have sat on the sidelines, missing my old hasselbads & 680s, because I am just not buying it - that MF is worth the collection of small hassles and just shot the Canons - and before going digital with a dSLR I rarely shot small format because it just wasn't me. But I have become a new me and I am fine shooting the dSLR.
Funny thing about this is that I am seriously thinking about the Phase camera but then I throw some cold water and I just think I should get another 1Ds III body (and dump my backup II body) & just be done with it. I can make beautiful, well paying work with that setup and the business side of me says to just go that way.
Ken
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If you had to buy one new, available camera to use for the rest of your life, what would it be?
Hi James
No question about it, the right equipment speaks volumes about you; sadly, so does the wrong!
When those things mattered to me, there was nothing like having a 500C and a 500CM sitting on a table, each with a lens and another in its plastic housing. (Do they still ship their lenses like that?) A couple of spare Nikons beside them did no harm either, and a wide collection of lenses for them didn´t break the bank but sure looked impressive! All that was missing was a Leica, but we all tried to say they were for amateurs.
So, to your question, what would I do now, given the life to live again and the business to make it make sense? In a shot, it would be back to whatever model of 500 ´blad that works with film might still be available. (As I´m not buying anymore, I don´t look either, so can´t say for sure.) That, and the best scanner I could get.
You know what? I´m not even sure that I´d get into digital printing again; I think that it seems to be turning into a financial drain, much like a boat usually turns out to be! (I know, I know, if you have to ask how much it costs you can´t afford it, but even those who can, big-time, know it´s a killer. Or so they all tell me.)
Rob C
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Anybody that thinks about medium format digital loves photography.
Not talking digital here (god let's don't talk digital) but let's talk cameras.
If you had to buy one new, available camera to use for the rest of your life, what would it be?
. . . It makes him feel good.
It's about what makes you feel good.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The only currently manufactured MF cameras on the market that makes me feel good are the Hy6 and AFi, and mainly the Hy6 because of the rotating back. Everything else makes me feel, well, less than psyched.
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"If you had to buy one new, available camera to use for the rest of your life, what would it be?"
Well it would have to be completely manual and not be superseded a month after I bought it by special deals from the maker at a much lower price. It would be without batteries and software free so it wouldn't need upgrading every so often. A Hasselblad 500cm and a Linhof would fit the bill nicely. I've already got them and can't see me ever getting rid of them either.
Although I've got many other types of camera, including digital, these two always feel special when I pick them up.
Surely this new Phase lens must be a new one and not the old model at an inflated price. They can't be that mad can they ?
Pete
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Gidday Pete,
Nothing surprises me when it comes to camera manufactures.
Example Mamiya bringing out the new Mamiya AF 80mm F2.8D lens which basically is a cosmetic change, when what they should have done was to make it a F2.0 or even F1.9 which they had in there old manual lenses.
Cheers
Simon
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Gidday Pete,
Nothing surprises me when it comes to camera manufactures.
Example Mamiya bringing out the new Mamiya AF 80mm F2.8D lens which basically is a cosmetic change, when what they should have done was to make it a F2.0 or even F1.9 which they had in there old manual lenses.
Cheers
Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Simon,
I agree. That F1.9 was a really lovely lens too with a unique look. A lens doesn't have to be ultra sharp to be a good one. Some of the best lenses I own are over fifty years old.
Pete
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Don't even get me started on the poor filter situation on the 28. If Hassy could do it why not Mamiya? I think the person who designed the lens wasn't a photographer....
don
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Submitted copy for new Phase One ads:
* "Phase One and Hartblei: Partners in Mediocrity".
* "Phase One and Hartblei: Taking 1965 Engineering But Marking It Up to 2008 Prices"
* "Phase One and Hartblei: When We Look At Their Lens Sharpness, It Makes Us Feel So Much Better About Our LCDs"
* "Phase One and Mamiya: They Were the Only Camera Left"
* "Phase One and Hartblei: How Do We Do It? With Vodka, That's How!"
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It's like Phase One just waited too late to see the writing on the wall. You know that feeling, when you're in the bar at about 2:39am, and everyone's gone except for, well, you know, the ones you'd chew your arm off to escape from the next morning? Well, we've got Mamiya 645 and Hartblei, sitting there at the bar, with their arms around each other, about to doze off, and Phase goes into the bathroom, brushes his teeth and combs his hair, and heads toward the bar, to team up with the only two unclaimed in the house.
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Oh please bring back my Contax 645. It was my favorite MF SLR.
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Submitted copy for new Phase One ads:
* "Phase One and Hartblei: Partners in Mediocrity".
* "Phase One and Hartblei: Taking 1965 Engineering But Marking It Up to 2008 Prices"
* "Phase One and Hartblei: When We Look At Their Lens Sharpness, It Makes Us Feel So Much Better About Our LCDs"
* "Phase One and Mamiya: They Were the Only Camera Left"
* "Phase One and Hartblei: How Do We Do It? With Vodka, That's How!"
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It's like Phase One just waited too late to see the writing on the wall. You know that feeling, when you're in the bar at about 2:39am, and everyone's gone except for, well, you know, the ones you'd chew your arm off to escape from the next morning? Well, we've got Mamiya 645 and Hartblei, sitting there at the bar, with their arms around each other, about to doze off, and Phase goes into the bathroom, brushes his teeth and combs his hair, and heads toward the bar, to team up with the only two unclaimed in the house.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210027\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is the new Boris with Zeiss glass. right?
JR
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Phase One has just formed a strategic alliance with the German based company Hartblei. Hartblei has a record of producing high end tilt/shift lenses for small format and medium format cameras.
Most lens parts and assembly is done at the Hartblei factory in Kiev Ukraine, but several parts and processes are also produced in Germany.
Not to be cynical(sure!), but I think what's done in Germany are the setting of the financial mark-up, the invoicing, the ad copy and the application of the Phase stickers.
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The reason for their existence is the superior image quality of MF and MFD.
Who would want to associate a high end digital back with mediocre lenses? It must be that all important lure of higher profit margins. For buyers, things should be cheap and the manufacturers seem to love cheap as well!
********
I once bought a LUBITEL MF TLR for then about $ 40. All plastic, not worth the roll films. Out of the maybe 10 films I exposed, only 1 shot was barely acceptable. A few years later, I threw away waste bins full of junk. Prints and slides. It hurt, but started a new phase. Not quantity but QUALITY mattered. So I used a Linhof Kardan Bi and Hasselblads. Forget the need to take many shots - just get the few you need right.
If the photographers who buy Phase One equipment were putting "cheap" above all, they might be buying a Sony Alpha with some no name zoom lenses.
This is like Porsche offering a sports car with an engine from LADA which based their engineering on a 1960s copy of a FIAT car. Lack of focus leads to terrible errors of judgment. Take VW wanting to conquer the luxury car market. If you had $$$$$$ to spend, wouldn't you want a Lexus, a Mercedes, a BMW or a Maserati or Audi? Selling the Phaeton 12 cylinder car as a VOLKSWAGNEN (people's car) was lunacy. But who ever heard of a high end manufacturer wanting to embrace low end equipment?
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Gents,
Phase One has just formed a strategic alliance with the German based company Hartblei. Hartblei has a record of producing high end tilt/shift lenses for small format and medium format cameras.
Most lens parts and assembly is done at the Hartblei factory in Kiev Ukraine, but several parts and processes are also produced in Germany.
The general purpose of this Strategic Alliance is to explore opportunities of future lens development for the Phase One 645 camera.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=209902\")
Thus, [a href=\"http://www.hartblei.de/]http://www.hartblei.de/[/url], not only http://www.hartblei.com/ (http://www.hartblei.com/).
Perhaps we should assume that optics will be very good... but our real worry shall be a much too high price!
Regards
Anders
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Gents,
Thus, http://www.hartblei.de/ (http://www.hartblei.de/), not http://www.hartblei.com/ (http://www.hartblei.com/) only. Perhaps we should assume that optics will be very good... but our real worry shall be a much too high price....
Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210074\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think we're gonna see much horizontal (long axis) shift out of these lenses.
The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.
Edmund
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The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Huh??? Not sure where you are getting your lenses Edmund, but I have one of those and it is a freaking laser! Only falls off at the very corners -- call it the last 3mm of full horizontal shift -- and everything in-between is excellent...
,
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Don't forget that Michael did say that Phase would be coming out with a remake hartblei and a new Mamiya/Phase tilt shift to come as well.
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I don't think we're gonna see much horizontal (long axis) shift out of these lenses.
The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The mamiya 50 shift is awesome. I believe in leveling criticism where it is due. The quality of the lens system is excellent. They look real nice and do not have the sharp CZ style of harsh microcontrast. I really like the OOF renderings. Now what we need are some reissues of the oldies such as the 80 1.9, 50 shift, and a new 110 or 100 f2.
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Hi
From what I understand about what Phase has done to this lens is the optics will be the same. However the movements will improved & the software from Phase will be an bonus too.
Denis
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Hi
From what I understand about what Phase has done to this lens is the optics will be the same. However the movements will improved & the software from Phase will be an bonus too.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210145\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All I'm warning is, test one before you buy. Or get a 30 day return on it, NQA. The movements are very funky, and it seems to tilt in only one direction. Honestly, I never figured it out. If you've ever used a Canon T/S it's a simple joy; a no-brainer, very intuitive. But the Hartbleis, both the 45 and 65, are very Rube Goldberg designs.
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James, you've nailed it again -- almost all good photographers have a parallel love-affair with their cameras (or some of their cameras) in addition to being devoted to the art. And there are some cameras which do stir the soul, and others which just pay the bills. Sometimes the two overlap, but that has not happened much in the early digital age, as the cameras have been reduced to large shutter boxes affixed the the digital-alchemy-units behind them.
My 'desert-island-camera' was and is the Mamiya 6 RF. Why? Because it's square, its light, I could hand-hold it almost to darkness, it smelled nice, had the sharpest lenses ever, took my best photograph, walked a thousand miles on my shoulder, got me laid, got me my best jobs, and just felt right in the hand in a way no other gear ever has.
If I won the lottery, I would pay someone egg-head a $200K to figure out a way to put a digital back on it. That's what daydreams are for.
But in reality, even $40K buys you last-century designs, with AF roughly on par with the Maxuum 5000, and very, very sore shoulders.
It is sad that so much (ie: all) of the creative energy invested into camera development has gone into sensors and digiware of late, and so little into the cameras themselves.
Hopefully once the megapixel race has plataued, minds will turn once more to making MF cameras that touch our hearts (and not just our wallets).
- N.
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James, you've nailed it again -- almost all good photographers have a parallel love-affair with their cameras (or some of their cameras) in addition to being devoted to the art. And there are some cameras which do stir the soul, and others which just pay the bills. Sometimes the two overlap, but that has not happened much in the early digital age, as the cameras have been reduced to large shutter boxes affixed the the digital-alchemy-units behind them.
My 'desert-island-camera' was and is the Mamiya 6 RF. Why? Because it's square, its light, I could hand-hold it almost to darkness, it smelled nice, had the sharpest lenses ever, took my best photograph, walked a thousand miles on my shoulder, got me laid, got me my best jobs, and just felt right in the hand in a way no other gear ever has.
If I won the lottery, I would pay someone egg-head a $200K to figure out a way to put a digital back on it. That's what daydreams are for.
But in reality, even $40K buys you last-century designs, with AF roughly on par with the Maxuum 5000, and very, very sore shoulders.
It is sad that so much (ie: all) of the creative energy invested into camera development has gone into sensors and digiware of late, and so little into the cameras themselves.
Hopefully once the megapixel race has plataued, minds will turn once more to making MF cameras that touch our hearts (and not just our wallets).
- N.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess it's a lot easier to slap 25million more megapixels in an existing back than it is to build a camera line.
The Harteblei, well as gwfthi says, get a gift receipt with a return promise, because mine is as stiff as a board. Actually my 45mm is so stiff it almost takes pliers to move it and it gets very little use.
Maybe Phase will do something about the supply line, but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.
It really gives great insight as to why Russia lost the cold war.
As far as Mamiya, well it's not a bad camera but it's still new carpet over an old floor and since the prism doesn't come off, it doesn't have a right angle grip ($900 Nikons have a right angle grip) and it requires a return to get new firmware, it's obviously not anywhere near ground breaking.
If it was bundled as an entry level camera it makes sense, but selling it with the world's most expensive digital back kind of makes me wonder what the marketing thought is on this and once again when you open the case full o' Mamiyas is it going to glow?
The only camera that gets my attention is the HY6 and AFI. I would prefer it came in jet black and said Rollei on the front but at least it's a real camera, with a series of lenses made on this side of the Berlin Wall, by people that have been making cameras for a long time.
I don't know what Leaf and Sinar are going to annouce to one up Blad and Phase on the pixel numbers, or if they are not coming out with a billion pixel back, then I would suggest they start selling the goodness of the camera.
I'm not to sure about pixels but I know about beautiful cameras.
JR
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I guess it's a lot easier to slap 25million more megapixels in an existing back than it is to build a camera line.
The Harteblei, well as gwfthi says, get a gift receipt with a return promise, because mine is as stiff as a board. Actually my 45mm is so stiff it almost takes pliers to move it and it gets very little use.
Maybe Phase will do something about the supply line, but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.
It really gives great insight as to why Russia lost the cold war.
As far as Mamiya, well it's not a bad camera but it's still new carpet over an old floor and since the prism doesn't come off, it doesn't have a right angle grip ($900 Nikons have a right angle grip) and it requires a return to get new firmware, it's obviously not anywhere near ground breaking.
If it was bundled as an entry level camera it makes sense, but selling it with the world's most expensive digital back kind of makes me wonder what the marketing thought is on this and once again when you open the case full o' Mamiyas is it going to glow?
The only camera that gets my attention is the HY6 and AFI. I would prefer it came in jet black and said Rollei on the front but at least it's a real camera, with a series of lenses made on this side of the Berlin Wall, by people that have been making cameras for a long time.
I don't know what Leaf and Sinar are going to annouce to one up Blad and Phase on the pixel numbers, or if they are not coming out with a billion pixel back, then I would suggest they start selling the goodness of the camera.
I'm not to sure about pixels but I know about beautiful cameras.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I guess it's a lot easier to slap 25million more megapixels in an existing back than it is to build a camera line.
The Harteblei, well as gwfthi says, get a gift receipt with a return promise, because mine is as stiff as a board. Actually my 45mm is so stiff it almost takes pliers to move it and it gets very little use.
Maybe Phase will do something about the supply line, but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.
It really gives great insight as to why Russia lost the cold war.
As far as Mamiya, well it's not a bad camera but it's still new carpet over an old floor and since the prism doesn't come off, it doesn't have a right angle grip ($900 Nikons have a right angle grip) and it requires a return to get new firmware, it's obviously not anywhere near ground breaking.
If it was bundled as an entry level camera it makes sense, but selling it with the world's most expensive digital back kind of makes me wonder what the marketing thought is on this and once again when you open the case full o' Mamiyas is it going to glow?
The only camera that gets my attention is the HY6 and AFI. I would prefer it came in jet black and said Rollei on the front but at least it's a real camera, with a series of lenses made on this side of the Berlin Wall, by people that have been making cameras for a long time.
I don't know what Leaf and Sinar are going to annouce to one up Blad and Phase on the pixel numbers, or if they are not coming out with a billion pixel back, then I would suggest they start selling the goodness of the camera.
I'm not to sure about pixels but I know about beautiful cameras.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i think there is a lot of confusion in the comanies what wants and what needs the market.
they get response from 1.000 users, but how to rate which input is valuable and which not?
i dont believe that its more expensive to construct mechanical or optical things than electronics.... its a question on the priorities and if they are seen.
i am happy that a company was listening to my words, regarding the needs of my specific field of work. here i.m.o. the existing ( + expensive ) solutions have been also way "off" a reasonable workflow ( in my opinion ) that i never could understand why no manufactor wanted to make a architecture camera which is not a big step beyond the "old" 4x5" systems,- more so because it was obviously visible how it should have been done.
if it would not be so expensive and existential for us it would simply be ridiculous how blind and technic- paralysed the companies destroy a whole market niche.
b.t.w. .... after touching the new nikon 24pc lens i also couldnt do another thing than shaking my head. no need to try it out, so plastic and unprecise it felt in my hands. its crazy how a big company can make products like this.
maybe its tells more about the time we live in than the specific camera market.
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In Phase/Mamiya's defence, I do have to say that I doubt they'd release any Soviet-era crap with their names on it...not when they're making 60MP sensors. Mamiya has been quite conservative about releasing new lenses (such as the much-awaited 28mm and still-awaited 45-90), probably on the grounds that the IQ just wasn't up to scratch yet. The 28mm is out, and it is outstanding. Similarly, Phase isnèt going to tarnish their reputation, that would be suicidal. Just *how* they will get Hartblei up to scratch, well thatès a whole other story...
As for purpose-built and thoughtfully built MF bodies, Ièm sure something will come along, but it had better be sooner rather than later. There is so much that could be done so easily to make a great camera. Too bad Apple isnèt in the MF camera business
- N.
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I don't think we're gonna see much horizontal (long axis) shift out of these lenses.
The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I had a copy that was very sharp, once you focused beyond 10 feet. CA was also well-controlled. My only complaint is that it was a 50mm instead of a 40mm.
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i think there is a lot of confusion in the comanies what wants and what needs the market.
they get response from 1.000 users, but how to rate which input is valuable and which not?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Honestly, this one is easy.
If your going to spend $40,000, $50,000, or even $20,000 in an upgrade it better look like it's worth those numbers and it better do a whole lot more than what your using now.
Still, give it spouse check. Open it up, put it together and place it on the dinng room table and turn to your spouse and say, hey how do you like my new camera?
If he/she says wow, that's beautiful, then your probably on track.
JR
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Honestly, this one is easy.
If your going to spend $40,000, $50,000, or even $20,000 in an upgrade it better look like it's worth those numbers and it better do a whole lot more than what your using now.
Still, give it spouse check. Open it up, put it together and place it on the dinng room table and turn to your spouse and say, hey how do you like my new camera?
If he/she says wow, that's beautiful, then your probably on track.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tried something similar when I bought my latest computer: all I got was a dirty look, and let´s not ever turn to the thorny and decidely painful question about why I traded in my ´blads against spousal advice!
Only thing worse on the wife front would be to turn up with ANYTHING new and connected to photography. She obviously feels that having spent so much of her life working with me, it´s now time to kiss photography goodbye. Trouble is, I agree with her but don´t quite know how to kick the habit.
Rob C
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I never figured it out. If you've ever used a Canon T/S it's a simple joy; a no-brainer, very intuitive. But the Hartbleis, both the 45 and 65, are very Rube Goldberg designs.
The optics on the Hartblei are not great, theres no debate about that, but the movements are far better than the Canon T/S which I also own. I think that the design is ingenious rather than the 'kludge' you are implying.
However, one does need to spend a little time with the lens to understand how it works, ie: more than 30 seconds but no more than 15 minutes. Perhaps this comes more easily to me because of experience using large format cameras, so I am used to what the movements do.
These are the reasons why I think the Super Rotator has the best movements.
1) Axes of tilt and shift are independently rotatable. For architectural subjects, I don't really use tilt, however its more likely that I would want both tilt and shift on the same (vertical axis) for this purpose. For landscapes one generally wants these axes at 90 degrees to each other, this can be done in a moment.
2) Shift and tilt does not move out of alignment accidentally, (this often happens with the Canon T/S, so you have to keep checking that you havent accidentally added tilt)
The build quality of mine is good, though the mount is pretty poor, (thats one thing they are fixing).
My only complaint about the Hartblei 45 is that I'd like to be able to read the aperture ring when I am standing behind the camera, I find myself having to crane my neck around to see it.
If only these movements had nice Zeiss glass in them I would shell out my $4000 at the drop of a hat. At the moment this has not been announced, but it would be very disappointing if it were not part of the package at some point in the future. considering the Zeiss/Hartblei tie up.
If the resolution was good enough to match the p65+ sensor then this would be a great lens for interiors. You'd get a wide enough lens for most purposes on the larger sensor size, plus fairly easy shift. The Mamiya 50 isn't quite wide enough.
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but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.
http://www.whatpart.co.uk/parts-105-yugo.html (http://www.whatpart.co.uk/parts-105-yugo.html)
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http://www.whatpart.co.uk/parts-105-yugo.html (http://www.whatpart.co.uk/parts-105-yugo.html)
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Uhgg... more info....
http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/w...ilt_shift_lens/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/phase_one_45mm_tilt_shift_lens/)
Now the THREE thousand dollar question... is it really worth THREE thousand more than the Hartblei original???
As an amateur my mind is more and more of eventually a Shen-Hao for 4x5 FILM wide angle use as complement to digital MF... the thought of Fuji Velvia...
Regards
Anders
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Uhgg... more info....
http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/w...ilt_shift_lens/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/phase_one_45mm_tilt_shift_lens/)
Now the THREE thousand dollar question... is it really worth THREE thousand more than the Hartblei original???
As an amateur my mind is more and more of eventually a Shen-Hao for 4x5 FILM wide angle use as complement to digital MF... the thought of Fuji Velvia...
Regards
Anders
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=219166\")
Unless it has much improved Glass or something that the original didn't this is going to be a though sell.
I guess it all depends on the final image quality.
The image on that weblog looks strange, like a stripped down tilt shift, not like the Boris TS I bought for about $700.
[a href=\"http://ishotit.com/superrotator/source/_dsc8722.htm]http://ishotit.com/superrotator/source/_dsc8722.htm[/url]
JR
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Unless it has much improved Glass or something that the original didn't this is going to be a though sell.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
maybe the glass is better:Together Phase One and Hartblei have engineered important design advancements with this lens, including:
1. New 2008 batch optical glass with multi-layer coating
4. New interior antireflection coating
I played around with the "old" TS lens for a week... and with the P45 it's desolate. But center sharpness was not totaly bad. Not as good as a Distagon 2.8/45 certainly, but acceptable. So if the new glass has better contrast so that the entire capture frame is illuminated sharp it's maybe a good thing.
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maybe the glass is better: I played around with the "old" TS lens for a week... and with the P45 it's desolate. But center sharpness was not totaly bad. Not as good as a Distagon 2.8/45 certainly, but acceptable. So if the new glass has better contrast so that the entire capture frame is illuminated sharp it's maybe a good thing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219176\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree if it's a much improved lens it may be worth it depending on what you shoot.
What I don't understand is the information stream on this type of equipment.
You just can't start selling a brand of lenses at $3,000 that previously went for $700 without some explanation of what the benifits are.
Even if the lens is much more improved, let's be honest, the Boris brand isn't up there with the thought of Leica, Schneider or Zeiss.
It may turn out to be the lens of the century, but before I'd advertise anything I'd sure have some information about the lens including sharpness.
I use the old Boris to make it not sharp, so for that it's great, but if I shot something I had to pull a lot of focus with, I'd want more info.
(http://russellrutherford.com/fashion/thumbs/th_rr_fashion_0014.jpg)
Personally I don't understand medium format marketing. Everybody gets all up in arms if you don't say horray, good idea, great, but the bottom line is this equipment is very expensive and more importantly it's used for very expensive production (or should be).
Given all of this, I just don't understand the way all of medium format markets. There are streams and clips of press releases and banners from small blogs, dealers, forums etc., but no real definative information in one place that gives you what you need to know to make an informed purchase.
Since Hasselblad closed off their camera, it seems everyone's marketing is somewhat of a knee jerk reaction.
What happned to the days when you picked up a camera brochure and there was this schematic of everything you needed to get to work, showing lenses, adpaters, accessories, etc. etc.
Now we get information in bits and pieces and usually the price is way down the line, followed by delivery dates. Or in this case the price is there but no real information about the lens, at least not in one cohesive form, much less any photographs shot with it.
JR
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You just can't start selling a brand of lenses at $3,000 that previously went for $700 without some explanation of what the benifits are.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
totally agree! Above all if you can get a small Horseman or Cambo with Schneider 47XL for about 5.000,- (if it's the shift you want to use)
I use the old Boris to make it not sharp, so for that it's great, but if I shot something I had to pull a lot of focus with, I'd want more info.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've seen this series on your webpage and the old TS adds perfectly to that somehow dreamy nostalgic look - very, very nice series!
BTW... it's € 3.000 and $4.000
Phase One 3.5/45 TS lens costs 2.990€ / $3,990
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totally agree! Above all if you can get a small Horseman or Cambo with Schneider 47XL for about 5.000,- (if it's the shift you want to use)
I've seen this series on your webpage and the old TS adds perfectly to that somehow dreamy nostalgic look - very, very nice series!
BTW... it's € 3.000 and $4.000
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=219182\")
Here is an excerpt from the new press release from phase in regards to the new 45 t/s, there are some improvements as noted. Waiting to see it in person.
Phase One Introduces Tilt/Shift Lens
Based on Collaboration with Hartblei
Copenhagen, September 3, 2008 -- Phase One A/S today announced an exclusive strategic alliance with Hartblei to drive medium format photographic lens innovation. The first product of this alliance is the Phase One 3.5/45 mm TS lens, based on the popular Hartblei 45 mm f/3.5 Super Rotator lens.
Specially designed for the professional photographer, this small, lightweight tilt shift lens is ideal for location or studio applications. It offers up to 12 mm shift and 8 degrees tilt for maximum flexibility.
Together Phase One and Hartblei have engineered important design advancements with this lens, including:
1. New 2008 batch optical glass with multi-layer coating
2. Improved 12 blade aperture design
3. Mechanics with tighter tolerances
4. New interior antireflection coating
5. More streamlined mechanical design
When used with the Phase One 645 camera system, the Phase One 3.5/45 mm TS lens offers a
simple, alternative to more advanced technical cameras. With it, photographers can adjust the plane of focus without changing the depth of field, correct perspective and selectively sharpen and soften an image – quickly gaining creative possibilities that cannot be realized in post-production.
The Phase One 3.5/45 TS lens comprises a simple eight-lens optical system. Each element is coated with a multilayer anti-reflective coating to reduce internal reflections, increase image transmission efficiency
and enhance contrast. The new lens is also is supported by Phase One’s Lens+ and Focus+ optical correction technologies available in Capture One 4.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]
()
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Buy Alpa - you get both the shifts and the leaf shutter
Edmund
$4K lens makeover from a $1K lens should have Zeiss glass instead of a "new batch" of Ukranian glass. Just my personal feelings. Leaf shutter lenses should be Phase's (also Mamiya's) TOP priority over a lens which architectural shooters will do fine for the time being with current technical cameras, many great ones of those out now. While I like the Mamiya 645AFD system(s), Phase gets included in that, the weak link is 1/125th sync.
My main concern with leaf shutter lenses whenever they come out, and IF, is how well they will do with legacy cameras if at all. Because at that point you're just better off buying into the Hy6 family or H series which are a no hassle leaf shutter experience and on par price wise with both Mamiya and Phase's new huge bump in lens prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There is no new batch. I used to buy these 35mm and 35/85mm lenses in Ukraine but there are no lenses left. The 45mm hasn't been produced for a long time so they just bought back all stocks to be able to produce( relabel) the Phase lenses. a friend of mine was in the kiev/hartblei factury for me to find some contax mount lenses but they ar all to be refitted for mamiya.
I have one perfectly sharp 45mm but had to get rid of 4 useless examples...
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$4K lens makeover from a $1K lens should have Zeiss glass instead of a "new batch" of Ukranian glass.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=219262\")
Correct me if I'm wrong but it says on their website the new batch of glass/optics are made by 'Carl Zeiss'
[Quote/] The current prototypes are equipped with lens groups completely "Made in Germany" by Carl Zeiss. These lens groups are being assembled in Germany and embedded into Hartblei barrels made from German special aluminium. [End Quote]
More info at this link [a href=\"http://www.hartblei.eu/en/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm]http://www.hartblei.eu/en/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm[/url]
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Correct me if I'm wrong but it says on their website the new batch of glass/optics are made by 'Carl Zeiss'
[Quote/] The current prototypes are equipped with lens groups completely "Made in Germany" by Carl Zeiss. These lens groups are being assembled in Germany and embedded into Hartblei barrels made from German special aluminium. [End Quote]
More info at this link http://www.hartblei.eu/en/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm (http://www.hartblei.eu/en/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219279\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We have tested these lenses for a dutch fotoforum but these are not the lenses tah are to be used on a MF camera. They were not bad at all but only fit 35mm camera's. We had all of them ; the 40mm, the 80mm and the macro planar. These are the lenses designed by a german photographer who bought a part of the hartblei name.
The 45mm for MF is just an old russian design. Lenses arent made for years and only supplies are bought to get enough lenses for Phase.
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We have tested these lenses for a dutch fotoforum but these are not the lenses tah are to be used on a MF camera. They were not bad at all but only fit 35mm camera's. We had all of them ; the 40mm, the 80mm and the macro planar. These are the lenses designed by a german photographer who bought a part of the hartblei name.
The 45mm for MF is just an old russian design. Lenses arent made for years and only supplies are bought to get enough lenses for Phase.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think we will have to wait and see. I really don't think Phase will sell a renamed lens for 3 times the price. Every new lens they bring out has to be better than the stuff before, otherwise they would lose customers.
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bottom line is this equipment is very expensive and more importantly it's used for very expensive production (or should be).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
I agree with what you say, but with comment to above. Lets remember there was a time when cameras and lenses were more affordable (than the latest developments from Mamiya). The medium format players still in the field are changing that and pushing much higher in prices. Why? If digital is so much superior to film, why does it need to cost more? This is tough for us amateurs who seek higher quality than DSLRs and larger media format than the 24x16mm and 36x24mm sensors...
Regards
Anders
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James,
I agree with what you say, but with comment to above. Lets remember there was a time when cameras and lenses were more affordable (than the latest developments from Mamiya). The medium format players still in the field are changing that and pushing much higher in prices. Why? If digital is so much superior to film, why does it need to cost more? This is tough for us amateurs who seek higher quality than DSLRs and larger media format than the 24x16mm and 36x24mm sensors...
Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To some extent I agree, though medium format was always more expensive, film, lenses, and large format even more expensive than that.
The difference was that prior to digital a less expensive camera with good glass, or even a used camera still allowed you to easily use the latest sensor (film).
Now it's different and the digital film is the most expensive element of the package.
Then again it's not all bad expecially at the amateur level. If you are cautious and do some research a Valeo 22, an H25, an A 17, even a later model p21 will give you very very close to the same quality as any of the newer backs. In fact the sensor in most of these is the same as the newer backs, just the convenience and speed is increased, but not that much towards the final image quality.
Adding one of those on a used Contax, or Mamiya or even a first generation H-1 is not that much more than a new Canon and if your shooting for only your own personal work, it probably will last you many years.
JR
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These new 45mm will be better becaurse of the better coatings and smaller tollerances in production but will be made from the same batch lenses out of the 80ies from last centurie. They dont make 45mm anymore but had a huge pile of them laying in warehouses.
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These new 45mm will be better becaurse of the better coatings and smaller tollerances in production but will be made from the same batch lenses out of the 80ies from last centurie. They dont make 45mm anymore but had a huge pile of them laying in warehouses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wonder how much of a difference coatings would make?
Looking at my old Hartblei 45, there is no sign of ill fitting parts, it seems very well made (admitting that the look of it is not to everyones taste).
So you optical experts out there... how much quality improvement can one get from better coatings?
I assumed it would only improve maybe flare characteristics which would be useful but not address the fundamental issue... that the lens calculations would be exactly the same.
Moreover these are lens calculations are at a fairly extreme point on the spectrum of uses, with the shifting, size of elements etc. Its not a very large front element considering what its trying to do.
I await the reviews with interest but not a great deal of anticipation.
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I wonder how much of a difference coatings would make?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219379\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I saw the note about the new $3995 price tag for the 45ts.
All I'm saying is, before I wrote that check, I'd want to do lots of testing with this "new" lens design.
Also, the physical design of the way it rotates and tilts is very Sputnik-era; let's just say it's not the most elegant efficient design. I guess if you had to have some tilt, it's better than nothing, but compared to the incredible ease of working with the Canon tilts, Canon wins hands-down.
I just shake my head in disbelief at writing a four thousand dollar check for slapping some lipstick on a pig.
Phase -- you gotta love 'em. When backed in a corner, I guess a man's got to fight, but this desperation move of rebadging every Edsel left in the marketplace; well, it just screams of panic to me. Rumors have it that they're now about to get into the automotive business, and they've located every AMC Gremlin on the planet, and they're manufacturing silver Phase logos to slap on the hoods. Revised price: $46,000 USD, for a 1972 AMC Gremlin that's been run through a car wash. New director of "remarketing" at Phase: Fred Sanford.
In terms of long-term quality products, my money is on Sinar, and I never would have said that a year ago. Sinar is listening, and they seem to be delivering.
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Also, the physical design of the way it rotates and tilts is very Sputnik-era; let's just say it's not the most elegant efficient design. I guess if you had to have some tilt, it's better than nothing, but compared to the incredible ease of working with the Canon tilts, Canon wins hands-down.
Nothing beats the technical or mechanical design of the Hartblei!!! No canon, nikon or other has te same movements. It are the only lenses that have full 360 degrees tilt and schift rotation independent from eachother. No other lens can do that Canon is always fixed at 90 degrees for example( unless you modifie it in an other angle.
I think it is better to work some time with the lens befor making statements
I am sure you learn to appreciate that lens, I have all types of them, and lukkely i switched untill I got the perfect ones.
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Yeah, the issues here seem t ob ethe glass, and of course this is a stop-down lens.
At the prince they're selling them I think Schneider or Zeiss would find it profitable to enter the market.
Edmund
Also, the physical design of the way it rotates and tilts is very Sputnik-era; let's just say it's not the most elegant efficient design. I guess if you had to have some tilt, it's better than nothing, but compared to the incredible ease of working with the Canon tilts, Canon wins hands-down.
Nothing beats the technical or mechanical design of the Hartblei!!! No canon, nikon or other has te same movements. It are the only lenses that have full 360 degrees tilt and schift rotation independent from eachother. No other lens can do that Canon is always fixed at 90 degrees for example( unless you modifie it in an other angle.
I think it is better to work some time with the lens befor making statements
I am sure you learn to appreciate that lens, I have all types of them, and lukkely i switched untill I got the perfect ones.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219393\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I use a P45+ on an AFD II. The Mamiya body is what it is - a cheap, somewhat obsolete, merely OK body with cheap to expensive, mostly OK lenses (with the new lenses being much nicer). All in all, nothing really spectacular. Competent. Uninspiring.
The problem for Phase One is that the AFD II and III, and most of their associated lenses, are NOT in the same league as their backs. Not even close. And by associating with these merely OK bodies and mostly OK lenses, they diminish shooter's experience with their backs.
There was some talk by Phase One, when the AFD III was released, that this was just a stopgap until they can come out with an entirely new design. Obviously that could just be marketing BS, but it would certainly be nice if true. Now if only Phase One understood the concept of a published roadmap :-)
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I use a P45+ on an AFD II. The Mamiya body is what it is - a cheap, somewhat obsolete, merely OK body with cheap to expensive, mostly OK lenses (with the new lenses being much nicer). All in all, nothing really spectacular. Competent. Uninspiring.
The problem for Phase One is that the AFD II and III, and most of their associated lenses, are NOT in the same league as their backs. Not even close. And by associating with these merely OK bodies and mostly OK lenses, they diminish shooter's experience with their backs.
There was some talk by Phase One, when the AFD III was released, that this was just a stopgap until they can come out with an entirely new design. Obviously that could just be marketing BS, but it would certainly be nice if true. Now if only Phase One understood the concept of a published roadmap :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well what I have seen from the 80mm and from the new 150mm lens I would say they are not OK lenses, I think they are really good. I don't know many lenses that can compete with them. Now if they keep track as they promise and redesign all current lenses i think we will have a lot of fun.
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Well what I have seen from the 80mm and from the new 150mm lens I would say they are not OK lenses, I think they are really good.
I specifically said the new lenses were much nicer.
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Nothing beats the technical or mechanical design of the Hartblei!!! No canon, nikon or other has te same movements. It are the only lenses that have full 360 degrees tilt and schift rotation independent from eachother. No other lens can do that Canon is always fixed at 90 degrees for example
Absolutely right, the mechanical design is spot on. Its only the glass that lets it down.
Every design has its compromises though and the Hartblei certainly has. Given the choice though I would choose the Hartblei mechanical movements over my three Canon TS lenses.
(BTW : The 'look' is certainly Sputnik. But then the Russian space program beat the US into space didn't it! Nasa spent millions developing a ball point pen that could write in zero gravity... the Russians gave their cosmonauts pencils. I appreciate such a simple design principle).
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I was lucky to test a lot of hartblei lenses and kept the ones that were best. I had two perfect 35mm SR lenses but one got dammaged when hitting the concrete floor) and two perfect 85mm for nikon /canon mount. I also have a extremely good 45 mm but had several bad ones before i found the wright one.
This photo is with a 45mm on a mamamiya.
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Okay, a couple of things. First, there is a really good chance this will be Zeiss glass. Which will make most of the comments on this board irrelevant! Of course if it is just a rebadged Hartblei then they would be deserving...
However, in trying to figure that out, and in following a link from above where Hartblei talks about using Zeiss glass in their lense bodies, it lists a 40, not a 45.
http://www.hartblei.eu/en/sr40if.htm (http://www.hartblei.eu/en/sr40if.htm)
I would much prefer a 40 over 45! Although 45 is okay. 50 is too narrow for much of what I do. I might end up with that one straight from Hartblei if it gets good reviews. So, like people say, we'll see!
In general though, I think people are forgetting one thing in talking about cost and these MF systems. Film! The price of a whole PO or AFDIII is quite cheap with several lenses when used with a film back. As I do landscape and my # of shots per year is very low (I do sell images but have a non-photo day job as well), I am a very very happy Mamiya user and my cost per image is great! The quality and size of enlargements I can do is incredible for the prices I've paid for the equipment.
Oh - and even the older MF glass, not the really old stuff, but the lenses that are pre-2008 are considered extremely competitive with Zeiss and Hassy from everything I've read from people how have actually used both. There is an article on this site where they test several MFDBs and the Mamiya glass was used right with the Hassy/Zeiss and the zoom lens was considered the equal of the Hassy zoom equivalent. Find that article for more info... Anyway, not trying to start a lense-war here, but just to say there are *many* who think that Mamiya glass is just a hair or two short of the Zeiss/Hassy equivalents (versus being 10 feet under them).
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Yeah -figred that it was for small format a half hour after posting. It starts by saying it was designed for 6X6, but then when you read the details about what cameras it is for, it is clearly for small format. That also means that the 40 isn't wide at all!!!
Note it says about the 40:
Even with wide open aperture, the optical resolution
is exceptionally high. Detail structures up
to 200 line pairs/Millimeter would be possible if
suitable chips would exist. The perfect lens for the
demanding studio and architecture Photographer.
Is it possible that Phase One would re-badge/sell a 700 lense for 3 or 4k when the same company is selling something like the 40? I've seen companies do really really dumb things, but this would be near the top of the list (assuming that further testing reveals that the glass itself doesn't fit the standards set by the rest of the Mamiya line-up or forthcoming Phase One lenses). We have that one line to work with 'improved glass' or whatever... I suppose it would have said Zeiss if it were Zeiss as that is a selling point, rather than 'improved' or whatever word was used. The existence of the 40 implies that they can work with Zeiss and maybe in future the glass will be replaced if it isn't?
Chris Lawery, who started the thread and sells the lenses, could confirm or deny this, no? This is one of those situations where there is a fact at hand, and speculation is of moderate value at best when the information could be had directly.
Chris - I know the lense got a lot of heat throughout this thread and I'm not asking you to enter the fray - I understand the virtue of staying above such fray - but from a factual perspective could you just reply with a 1-liner letting us know if the 45 has Zeiss glass or Hartblei glass?
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Yeah -figred that it was for small format a half hour after posting. It starts by saying it was designed for 6X6, but then when you read the details about what cameras it is for, it is clearly for small format. That also means that the 40 isn't wide at all!!!
Note it says about the 40:
Even with wide open aperture, the optical resolution
is exceptionally high. Detail structures up
to 200 line pairs/Millimeter would be possible if
suitable chips would exist. The perfect lens for the
demanding studio and architecture Photographer.
Is it possible that Phase One would re-badge/sell a 700 lense for 3 or 4k when the same company is selling something like the 40? I've seen companies do really really dumb things, but this would be near the top of the list (assuming that further testing reveals that the glass itself doesn't fit the standards set by the rest of the Mamiya line-up or forthcoming Phase One lenses). We have that one line to work with 'improved glass' or whatever... I suppose it would have said Zeiss if it were Zeiss as that is a selling point, rather than 'improved' or whatever word was used. The existence of the 40 implies that they can work with Zeiss and maybe in future the glass will be replaced if it isn't?
Chris Lawery, who started the thread and sells the lenses, could confirm or deny this, no? This is one of those situations where there is a fact at hand, and speculation is of moderate value at best when the information could be had directly.
Chris - I know the lense got a lot of heat throughout this thread and I'm not asking you to enter the fray - I understand the virtue of staying above such fray - but from a factual perspective could you just reply with a 1-liner letting us know if the 45 has Zeiss glass or Hartblei glass?
As said, we have tested all three hartblei lenses with Zeiss glass in it. The 40, 80 and 120 macro planar. These lenses are made by hartblei ukranie with carl zeiss west germany glass. However only internded for 35mm camera's. The 45mm3,5 for MF cameras uses russian glass but as they are running out of lenses ( producrion stopped years ago) they are looking for a replacement. The new coming 45mm will probably be using new and" better" lenses.
I have the complete lens set-up from russian SR lenses and i am very happy with them. They are never ultra sharp but very" Cartier Bresson" like( never seen a sharp image from him but always very beuatifull unsharp renderings) My favorit's are the 35 and 80mm for my canon gear and a coupple of 45mm for the mamiya/contax camera's.
For those interested, a link to the article:http://www.fotoapparatuur.nl/Artikelen/index.php/test-hartblei-superrotators/513/
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Cool!
Thanks
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Does anyone know if PhaseOne has started supplying any copies as yet? I am eagerly awaiting my copy and hoping it will be supplied soon.
Regards,
Piet Gispen
http://www.pietgispen.com (http://www.pietgispen.com)
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Does anyone know if PhaseOne has started supplying any copies as yet? I am eagerly awaiting my copy and hoping it will be supplied soon.
Regards,
Piet Gispen
http://www.pietgispen.com (http://www.pietgispen.com)
Agreed, I am looking into buying my first medium format and Phase One products seem to be a good deal. I am not sure if I should go Hasselblad over Phase.
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Agreed, I am looking into buying my first medium format and Phase One products seem to be a good deal. I am not sure if I should go Hasselblad over Phase.
I have both systems and i use the hasselblad H3d31II for all commercial assignment as it it a fast autofocussing, extremely sharp and a very nice extreem high iso camera.
The mamiya is reserved for the " free works". It's also a nice system but nowwhere near the Hassie H3d. And at he moment you buy into hassie for only 12000 euro.
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I have both systems and i use the hasselblad H3d31II for all commercial assignment as it it a fast autofocussing, extremely sharp and a very nice extreem high iso camera.
The mamiya is reserved for the " free works". It's also a nice system but nowwhere near the Hassie H3d. And at he moment you buy into hassie for only 12000 euro.
What do you mean by free works? What areas do you feel the Mamiya or phase one lacks in comparison?
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Hi, I mean non commisioned works, stuff I make for fun, exhibitions, calendars etc.... I think the Mamiya is a wonderful system... but the H3d is faster, nicer to use, better focussing, it is just a different "class". I also love the possibility tu use 3200 iso on the H3d31II (800 and two stops pushing in flexcolor) wich is extremely useful whn shooting in factories, nuclear plants,.... And because the h3dII uses the body to get rid of the heat, almost no dust gets to the sensor.
But the mamiya on the other hand is relatively cheap...
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Hi, I mean non commisioned works, stuff I make for fun, exhibitions, calendars etc.... I think the Mamiya is a wonderful system... but the H3d is faster, nicer to use, better focussing, it is just a different "class". I also love the possibility tu use 3200 iso on the H3d31II (800 and two stops pushing in flexcolor) wich is extremely useful whn shooting in factories, nuclear plants,.... And because the h3dII uses the body to get rid of the heat, almost no dust gets to the sensor.
But the mamiya on the other hand is relatively cheap...
Raf,
I was wondering about what you meant too - not about the free works but why you'd chose the mamiya for them. So is there anything you like the mamiya better for than the H3d31 or do you just take the mamiya when you are in higher risk of loss or damage type situations? btw - I've enjoyed your "free works" images that you've posted to the recent works threads.
Thanks and Happy New Years!
Eric
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Raf,
I was wondering about what you meant too - not about the free works but why you'd chose the mamiya for them. So is there anything you like the mamiya better for than the H3d31 or do you just take the mamiya when you are in higher risk of loss or damage type situations? btw - I've enjoyed your "free works" images that you've posted to the recent works threads.
Thanks and Happy New Years!
Eric
Hi Eric. Indeed, i like to use the mamiya stuff when there is a higher risk of loss or damage. I also like the abillity to use the super rotators on them. At the moment i am building a tiltlens for my hasselblad H3d but that will be a 135mm and i love the compact wide angle 45mm rotator. It's like a pentax dslr and a canon: they both do a terrific job but the canon....
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Hi, I mean non commisioned works, stuff I make for fun, exhibitions, calendars etc.... I think the Mamiya is a wonderful system... but the H3d is faster, nicer to use, better focussing, it is just a different "class". I also love the possibility tu use 3200 iso on the H3d31II (800 and two stops pushing in flexcolor) wich is extremely useful whn shooting in factories, nuclear plants,.... And because the h3dII uses the body to get rid of the heat, almost no dust gets to the sensor.
But the mamiya on the other hand is relatively cheap...
Images shot with a P30+/Phase One Camera (or any camera) will also at least equal images shot with an H3DII-31 shot at ISO 800 and pushed 2 stops. In my opinion, those two products have been and continue to be the leaders when it comes to medium format digital high ISO.
You're referring to the fanless H3DII that utilizes alternative methods for cooling (heat sink) and therefore has minimized venting on the digital back (as opposed to the original H3D and all prior Hasselblad/Imacon DB's which employed an internal fan for cooling). Phase One has been manufacturing fanless digital backs for years, so this is not new. That being said, as someone who sold Hasselblad/Imacon, Leaf, Sinar, instances where dust encountered the sensor were extremely rare, and more likely due to removing the back or access to the camera body via the rear curtain rather than through a vent on the DB. Those vents are genererally very well filtered.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I recently went with Phase One after quite a bit of review. I went the Phase direction due to the ability to do longer exposures for my landscape work. I went with Mamiya due to lower cost of used gear. I sold much of my Canon gear and bought an AFDII and used P45 with Value Added warranty in H mount. I can't comment on the quality of the P45 yet as I have been waiting 5 weeks so far for a mount swap from the H back. Phase can't seem to find a back for me so I am currently "dead in the water." I was told it would only be a couple weeks so whatever choice you make take the warranty and service marketing promisses with a grain of salt. I may have to sell it and go for a refurb Leaf 75s.
Steve, I have seen from some posts that the 45mm T/S is shipping in Europe. Any idea when it will be available in the US? I am hoping it will be a marked improvement over the Hartblei.
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Steve, I have seen from some posts that the 45mm T/S is shipping in Europe. Any idea when it will be available in the US? I am hoping it will be a marked improvement over the Hartblei.
I expect we will see it shortly (I'm sorry - I know that is a vague term). Some of what has been occurring is yes, improving these lenses in terms of coating, optical positioning, housing. I believe that it is difficult to look at a lens that has had a very average reputation that sold for $700 and now see - perceptively - the same lens selling for $3,999. But there is a process and a cost of improvement, there is testing and quality control that has had to have been set up internally at Phase One for these lenses (and that just recently) and there is also the very high cost of waste and rejection. Not to mention the cost of arrangement - whatever it was - between Hartblei and Phase One. Without our involvement I don't know that these lenses would continue to be available and there was certainly a cost in that.
A year ago, perhaps you could order one of these and someone would pull one off the shelf and you received a lens that had been manufactured and...it worked. The quality may have been unpredictable and random, but since it worked, it qualified as a lens that could ship. The picture is quite different now, with the physical enhancements, but most importantly, shipping lenses that are closely scrutinized as meeting a spec and doing that consistently. This is a good thing, and I think it will mean that this lens will be a useful lens - even at its price - for purchasers. But it also means that there is a lot of waste and rejection employed in the process of getting a quantity of good yields, similar to sensor chip manufacturers. And unfortunately, that has a cost to it.
For those familiar with these lenses, my expectation is that the lenses we produce will be better than the best sample of a previous generation that was ever produced. It will not equal a Schneider or Rodenstock on a camera like an Alpa or Cambo Wide. But how many of your medium format lenses do that now? So my recommendation would be to get a demo from your Phase One dealer of a non-prototype 45mm T/S.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve, I was led to believe from earlier posts that no new run of glass has been done. That the new lens used glass already produced but warehoused. Can you comment on this?
Also, can you find out why it is taking so long for my mount swap?