Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: markowich on July 08, 2008, 12:14:10 pm
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dear friends,
in the email from hasselblad (which probably most of you received) it says:
Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne.
any clou what that means? is it the 50 mpx sensor in the HDIII? or a real full 645 sensor?
peter
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dear friends,
in the email from hasselblad (which probably most of you received) it says:
Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne.
any clou what that means? is it the 50 mpx sensor in the HDIII? or a real full 645 sensor?
peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To me it seems like another sensor termed "645", over & above 50MP, unless something is lost in translation. I guess Sept 23rd is not far away anymore.
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could this be a reversal of hasselblad's 'full frame' policy? michael, what is your take on this?
peter
To me it seems like another sensor termed "645", over & above 50MP, unless something is lost in translation. I guess Sept 23rd is not far away anymore.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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To me it seems like another sensor termed "645", over & above 50MP, unless something is lost in translation. I guess Sept 23rd is not far away anymore.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Press Release:
High-End Digital Camera Manufacturer Announces The Launch Of Two New Products That
Fully Utilize The Latest Developments In Sensor Technology.
Following the success of the Hasselblad H3DII-39, the market’s most advanced DSLR,
Hasselblad is taking its H camera system even further and today announces the launch of
the Hasselblad H3DII-50, featuring a new Kodak 50 megapixel sensor, which is twice the
size of the largest 35mm DSLR sensors. A new 645 sensor will also be launched in 2009.
“We are very excited to announce these two ultra-high resolution sensors,” says Christian
Poulsen, Hasselblad Chief Executive Officer, “but having huge amounts of megapixels
does not help your photography much if you are not using a camera system that can
reap the benefits of these resolutions. What we are most proud of is the fact that the
unique resolution and optical quality of our H-system lens line, combined with our digital
lens correction and UltraFocus accuracy, has made it possible for Hasselblad to take our
system even further with regards to the accurate capture and recording of image detail.”
Full details on the 645 sensor will be part of Hasselblad’s Strategy and Technology
seminar at Photokina 2008 (23rd to 28th September, Cologne, Germany). Poulsen
continues: “We will discuss the new 645 sensor and other system additions, our overall
view of the Medium Format market, its future development, and our role in driving that
development, at this seminar.”
Poulsen adds, “Both the H3DII-50 and the new 645 sensor are designed to serve the
photographers who require the highest possible image quality and resolution, and are
part of Hasselblad’s ongoing commitment to continue pushing the boundaries of high level
photography."
The new Kodak KAF-50100 image sensor, which measures 36x48 millimeters, will be
implemented in the same size housing as the H3DII-39 camera and will comprise the
core of the new H3DII-50. The new sensor size is also optimized to work with
Hasselblad’s new HTS 1.5 tilt/shift adapter (patent pending), which enlarges the image
circle by 50% to bring the benefits of tilt/shift photography into medium format DSLR
cameras. An impressive 83 line-pairs/millimeter are resolved over the full, large area of
both today’s 36x48 millimeter sensor and of the upcoming larger 645 sensor.
Kodak has also added a set of entirely new features on the 50Mpix sensor, such as new
dyes, which will result in even better, richer colors and take full advantage of
Hasselblad’s R&D in the area of color rendering technology. The new sensor also includes
a range of other new features, including quick flush technology to enable faster capture
and lower power consumption, resulting in longer battery life.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Holy crap!
"...larger 645 sensor."
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"An impressive 83 line-pairs/millimeter are resolved over the full, large area of
both today’s 36x48 millimeter sensor and of the upcoming larger 645 sensor"
If "larger 645 sensor" means a true 41.5X56mm capture, it means a sensor with 64 MP !!!
Please do the math.
Eduardo
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How exactly do they expect the current h series lenses to resolve 83lp? Can they??
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Larger 645 sensor could also mean larger sized microns. Maybe 9 micron 31mpx or something like that.
Need to figure out first what Kodak has hiding under the blanket to be sure
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Larger 645 sensor could also mean larger sized microns. Maybe 9 micron 31mpx or something like that.
Need to figure out first what Kodak has hiding under the blanket to be sure
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My gut feeling is it will be larger pixels, thus overall less than 50MP, but it will start picking the good qualities from Nikon D3 (overall still 12MP, but larger sensor size) i.e no CA, longer apperture & better ISO performance. Funny, I just wrote my wish list.
More than likely they will say it is in development, delivery date late 09/early 10.
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My gut feeling is it will be larger pixels, thus overall less than 50MP, but it will start picking the good qualities from Nikon D3 (overall still 12MP, but larger sensor size) i.e no CA, longer apperture & better ISO performance. Funny, I just wrote my wish list.
More than likely they will say it is in development, delivery date late 09/early 10.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206511\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the new 645 sensor will be a full frame 645, 1 megapixel, but with a bit depth of 128.
It won't have a lot exact detail (which will enhance that soft focus film look), but it will have the ability to reproduce all colors in the spectrum, including colors that have not been discovered yet. (probably on the next Mars mission).
(http://ishotit.com/1mpx.jpg)
BTW: The above is a photo of the Swiss Alps with the new sensor.
JR
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I think the new 645 sensor will be a full frame 645, 1 megapixel, but with a bit depth of 128.
It won't have a lot exact detail (which will enhance that soft focus film look), but it will have the ability to reproduce all colors in the spectrum, including colors that have not been discovered yet. (probably on the next Mars mission).
BTW: The above is a photo of the Swiss Alps with the new sensor.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nice shot!
I read in last Victor it's gonna be only 1 pixel sensor and all the details will be interpolated with a new "intelligent remosaicing alcorhythm". Huge dynamic range thanks to a newly designed well that's 1 foot deep and made of negative refraction metamaterial. The new back is sold to new customers only. Can't be used with any camera.
J
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How quickly we forget. There was a thread a week or two ago that claimed there was a 645-sized sensor coming in a future back from Phase One. I wonder if all this talk is based on the same sensor, planned for use by several different back makers.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26091 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26091)
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How quickly we forget. There was a thread a week or two ago that claimed there was a 645-sized back coming from Phase One. I wonder if all this talk is based on the same sensor, planned for use by several different back makers.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26091 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26091)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206522\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That sounds very probable. It will be an interesting situation if all the backmakers offer the same sensor. The new Flektogon for Hy-6 would be quite wide with the larger sensor.
Cheers,
J
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Guy:
If both sensors resolve the same number of lines per milimeter, doesn't it mean they both have the same pixel pitch? Aproximately the same pixel size?
Please explain
Thanks
Eduardo
"An impressive 83 line-pairs/millimeter are resolved over the full, large area of
both today’s 36x48 millimeter sensor and of the upcoming larger 645 sensor"
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Guy:
If both sensors resolve the same number of lines per milimeter, doesn't it mean they both have the same pixel pitch? Aproximately the same pixel size?
Please explain
Thanks
Eduardo
"An impressive 83 line-pairs/millimeter are resolved over the full, large area of
both today’s 36x48 millimeter sensor and of the upcoming larger 645 sensor"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't know but the word large could have a double meaning here.
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Nice shot!
I read in last Victor it's gonna be only 1 pixel sensor and all the details will be interpolated with a new "[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\'][span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']intelligent remosaicing alcorhythm[/span][/u][/b][/span]". Huge dynamic range thanks to a newly designed well that's 1 foot deep and made of negative refraction metamaterial. The new back is sold to new customers only. Can't be used with any camera.
J
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206520\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is quite profound but it is over my head, as I know of "demosaicing" but not remosaicing. Also don't know what "alcorhthm" means, as I studied only "algorithms". Must be a new thing, so do enlighten us, ..oh so wise ones.
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That is quite profound but it is over my head, as I know of "demosaicing" but not remosaicing. Also don't know what "alcorhthm" means, as I studied only "algorithms". Must be a new thing, so do enlighten us, ..oh so wise ones.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The full well capacity is measured in gallons not photons from now on. Because of only one pixel, to get any details in the image you need to remosaic the raw data before it can be demosaiced. I do not recall if there was any mention about alcohol consumption.
(Oo-kay, not funny anymore, better to leave this thread before getting punished)
Cheers,
J
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Also don't know what "alcorhthm" means, as I studied only "algorithms".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, algorithm comes from al-Khwarizmi, which is not too very far from "alcorhthm".
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This thread is starting to look like a GetDPI thread, which is not bad at all.
I think we're all having the Pre-fotokina syndrome.
Boring beginning of summer before the top photo show in the world starts.
Eduardo
Actually, algorithm comes from al-Khwarizmi, which is not too very far from "alcorhthm".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Actually, algorithm comes from al-Khwarizmi, which is not too very far from "alcorhthm".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī: He was a Persian Islamic mathematician. The words algorism and algorithm stem from Algoritmi, the Latinization of his name. His name is also the origin of the Spanish word guarismo and of the Portuguese word algarismo, both meaning digit...so "alcorhthm" is just simply wrong, no matter how one tries to fit & justify the erroneous statement.
But I think Eduardo (uaiomex) put it succinctly, "it is just a pre-fotokina syndrome".
Cheers.
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If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??
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If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49. It is not going to fit directly on that, the prism finder needs to be altered & the HC28 cannot be used for one thing.
I am wondering whether it will be integrated in the CF line as a 645 sensor together with adapterplates. If that is the case and they would be dropping a nice screen into the CF as well that would certainly have my interest.
I could see the H3 line which keeps to 37x49 and the CF as 645.
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I can't see why they announe both sensors at the same time, everybody will wait for the 645 to compare before upgrading to a 50mp back. Will the 645 still work with the 28mm HC lens.
Don't know what to think of this new sensor. Will probably have better ISO finally, but those using the HR lenses will loose another few mm for movements.
I think this is the moment to hold on, wait before buyling another high end product this year. It will be a very interesting Photokina this year.
Tom
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49 x 36.8mm is 645? or is "645" some new kind of redifined digital format?... no doubt 645 will come along though, can't think of anything better for the manufacturers than to make the thing so big that you have to change all you lenses, again...
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Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49. It is not going to fit directly on that, the prism finder needs to be altered & the HC28 cannot be used for one thing.
I am wondering whether it will be integrated in the CF line as a 645 sensor together with adapterplates. If that is the case and they would be dropping a nice screen into the CF as well that would certainly have my interest.
I could see the H3 line which keeps to 37x49 and the CF as 645.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
H2F has a large enough viewfinder, maybe Hass will re-introduce 645-film as a new sensor (the first FF 645 film, of course) and thus they are not talking about pixels, just LP.
More seriously though, 35mm lens is relatively wide on (overflowing/full fullframe/new ) 645, of course depending on application. It should be easy for Hslbld to de-cripple H2F for digital and call it H645D. All the other lenses (H and C) except 28mm cover real 645.
Cheers,
J
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That is exactly what I hope for. The use of the H2F with a CF3 back that is 645. Sounds like it makes sense to me.
Keeping the H3 as 37x49 while being able to claim the highest resolution in its class and having a second line of products that can be used on most camera platforms with adapterplates and thus being open.
Hmmm... maybe I should work on a communication department ? Ah wait... I did leave that about 8 years ago
We will see in the near future but wishful thinking is always fun isn't it.
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I can't see why they announe both sensors at the same time, everybody will wait for the 645 to compare before upgrading to a 50mp back. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Except bird shooters?
More seriously, I guess that either way they had to announce a real product based on the 50MP small sensor first to make current customers feel that the H3D was not just a short term tactical move...
I personnally feel that going larger than 36x48 is a stupid move. Many wide lenses will have a really hard time dealing with large sensors, even those supporting them from the film days. We have seen this already with 35 mm FF sensor, the only lenses really good at it are the Nikkors N series redesigned with digital in mind.
Cheers,
Bernard
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.......I personnally feel that going larger than 36x48 is a stupid move. Many wide lenses will have a really hard time dealing with large sensors, even those supporting them from the film days. We have seen this already with 35 mm FF sensor, the only lenses really good at it are the Nikkors N series redesigned with digital in mind.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Last school of thought would be bringing back the concept of old "FCM" series. Where a fixed wide angle lens on 645 sensor, this would satisfy the Architectural shooters & landscapers would generate benefit too. F.W.I.W I loved my old FC/M series, gorgeous glass (Zeiss though ).
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Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49. It is not going to fit directly on that, the prism finder needs to be altered & the HC28 cannot be used for one thing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The prism is the easy part. The original prism for the H1 and H2 cameras is a "full frame" prism for the 645 format. The early H3Ds came with it. The 28mm lens is another matter. How about the new T/S adapter?
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If Hasselblad calls the 36x48 sensor "full format", what will be the description of the 645 sensor? "Full full format"??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Easy: "Fuller Format"
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Another thing I am thinking about, what body will the 645sensor be used on? The H3 is optimized for 37x49.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Modularity is a wonderful thing. The "48x36" part of H3D cameras is localized in the viewfinder bundled with them, the HVD 90x. But that can be swapped for the 645 format HV 90x viewfinder, as used in the H2F.
The sole HCD lens, the 28mm, would not be usable, but the inability to use a far larger number of DX lenses with full 35mm format bodies has not hampered Nikon from introducing its FX bodies. And I suspect that, as with DX lenses on FX bodies, the 28mm HCD could be used in a crop mode.
As to a name: Hasselblad carefully talks of "48mm full frame", not a vaguer "full frame medium format", so has left room for also offering cameras in "645 full frame": MF makers have a record of offering several formats. After all, there are already several systems with claims to being "full frame", in the sense that the sensor covers the full frame area for which the lenses are designed so that no narrowing of FOV options is forced upon the lens system by a "sensor crop"; clearly "full frame" is not tied exclusively to any one format.
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I guess 54x42mm will be the new ´full format´ and 48x37 will be ´fullish´.
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I guess 54x42mm will be the new ´full format´ and 48x37 will be ´fullish´.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206663\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't forget that with their past "marketing speak" record, even if the new 645 sensor really is larger than 48x36, there's no guarantee that it really will be a 56mm x 42.5mm capture area. It could be something slightly less... in between.
Personally, I think all the different capture sizes is a bit of a pain, especially when the industry had 36x24 and 36x36mm sensors on the market. Those were sort of legacy designs due to early stages of understanding how to make big sensor chips and I can appreciate that the industry was in a sort of transition phase. But from the point of view of someone who needs to figure out which lenses he'll need and so which ones to buy, different crop factors and chip sizes is a pain in the but. I'd just like them to stick to one size for a particular range and be done with it, and if it that is to be 48x36, then so be it, as long as the lenses are properly suited to it and a decent range of focal lengths is available.
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Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī: He was a Persian Islamic mathematician. The words algorism and algorithm stem from Algoritmi, the Latinization of his name. His name is also the origin of the Spanish word guarismo and of the Portuguese word algarismo, both meaning digit...so "alcorhthm" is just simply wrong, no matter how one tries to fit & justify the erroneous statement.
But I think Eduardo (uaiomex) put it succinctly, "it is just a pre-fotokina syndrome".
Cheers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206565\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ibn Musa (son of Moses) means he had jewish roots, and he lived in Bagdad afaik.
There are tons of translations of his works around.
"His major contributions to mathematics, astronomy, astrology, geography and cartography provided foundations for later and even more widespread innovation in algebra, trigonometry, and his other areas of interest. His systematic and logical approach to solving linear and quadratic equations gave shape to the discipline of algebra, a word that is derived from the name of his 830 book on the subject, al-Kitab al-mukhtasar fi hisab al-jabr wa'l-muqabala (Arabic الكتاب المختصر في حساب الجبر والمقابلة) or: "The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing". The book was first translated into Latin in the twelfth century.
His book On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals written about 825, was principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle-East and then Europe. This book also translated into Latin in the twelfth century, as Algoritmi de numero Indorum. From the name of the author, rendered in Latin as algoritmi, originated the term algorithm."
Edmund
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I think the most logical thing for Hassy to do is to make a 28mm lens that covers 645, and make it magically have high performance from center to corners, like Nikon managed to do with the 14-24mm G, the greatest wide angle zoom ever made.
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I think the new 645 sensor will be a full frame 645, 1 megapixel, but with a bit depth of 128.
It won't have a lot exact detail (which will enhance that soft focus film look), but it will have the ability to reproduce all colors in the spectrum, including colors that have not been discovered yet. (probably on the next Mars mission).
JR
James
Thanks for shedding some light on this topic. There is nothing more useful than when
a seasoned pro shares his/her experiences.
Unfortunately,it's a little difficult to fully understand exactly how this new sensor will perform when used for people shooting applications of the sort you routinely share with us.
As such,I have taken the liberty of taking one of your existing images and running it
through a beta version of the new Alkie-Rythm too get a better handle on what we should expect
this fall when the chip enters the marketplace.
I've attached a file that clearly demonstrates the smooth transition from sharp (freaky,
Contax 35mm sharp) to soft (Canon 1Ds3-like).
Also evident is the seamless transition from highlight to shadow
I think this example clearly shows why a MFDB with 50Mp pixel count and high-bit capture
depth easily outperforms anything currently available
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I've attached a file that clearly demonstrates the smooth transition from sharp (freaky,
Contax 35mm sharp) to soft (Canon 1Ds3-like).
I don't know about sharpness but yes it's scary and freaky.
Cheers,
J
ps. And of course like everything these days this new thingy "blows all other existing/competing solutions out of the water". I just wonder why everything is in water these days.
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Don't forget that with their past "marketing speak" record, even if the new 645 sensor really is larger than 48x36, there's no guarantee that it really will be a 56mm x 42.5mm capture area. It could be something slightly less... in between.
Personally, I think all the different capture sizes is a bit of a pain, especially when the industry had 36x24 and 36x36mm sensors on the market. Those were sort of legacy designs due to early stages of understanding how to make big sensor chips and I can appreciate that the industry was in a sort of transition phase. But from the point of view of someone who needs to figure out which lenses he'll need and so which ones to buy, different crop factors and chip sizes is a pain in the but. I'd just like them to stick to one size for a particular range and be done with it, and if it that is to be 48x36, then so be it, as long as the lenses are properly suited to it and a decent range of focal lengths is available.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree there needs to be some sort of standardization in small format and medium format, for example dslrs have 1.7 1.6 1.5 1.3 and a 1.0 chip factor. medium has the 37x37, the 33(2)x44(3) and the 36(7)x48(9).
That is 5 sensors each. 10 sensors sizes spread across 2 formats... I think in the future it would be great if digital companies could work together to establish some boundaries, also in the mp department...
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when i am alki-rythmed my point of focus is usually a bit lower.