Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Bernd B. on July 03, 2008, 12:06:14 pm
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I just got am email message from a local dealer here in Frankfurt.
H3DII/50 EUR 30,000,-
T/S-adapter for 28/35/50/80mm EUR 3.600,-
large-format adapter for H3D: EUR 1.600,-
plus tax.
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A tilt/shift adapter for existing lenses is not possible whatsoever. There would be no infinity focusing. That's why Mamiya had short barrel lenses for use with the RZ tilt/shift adapter.
Seems bogus.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The dealer is not known for telling bogus. I think it´s true, because it´s my local dealer here. And it was an email, not a personal chat. Every photographer in Frankfurt must have gotten it today.
I don´t care. My 39MP are enough. If I had a 22MP it would be enough as well.
Bernd
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A tilt/shift adapter for existing lenses is not possible whatsoever. There would be no infinity focusing. That's why Mamiya had short barrel lenses for use with the RZ tilt/shift adapter.
Seems bogus.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Unless the tilt/shift adapter is a la FlexBody or ArcBody.
Just a guess on my part. I am waiting to hear like everyone else.
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I just got am email message from a local dealer here in Frankfurt.
H3DII/50 EUR 30,000,-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205244\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Any more sources/info on this product?
Joe Bossuyt
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There will be a Hasselblad announcement early next week.
Looking forward to it.
Michael
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There will be a Hasselblad announcement early next week.
Looking forward to it.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interested too.
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There will be a Hasselblad announcement early next week.
Looking forward to it.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let the games begin!
Kumar
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I trust my dealer. I think every bit of that is true. But I don´t have any additional information. The only thing I left out was a "cable kit for E-shuttle Schneider and Rodenstock", whatever that is, for EUR 450,- plus tax.
Bernd
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There will be a Hasselblad announcement early next week.
Looking forward to it.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you mean this in a positive way Michael, or did you forget the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tags? :-)
Just kidding. Its always interesting to hear about new (hopefully innovative) products.
I just hope they have the common sense not to exclude existing H3D camera's this time around.
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My dealer now mentions this in the news section of his hp.
http://www.gmfoto.de/index.php?neues (http://www.gmfoto.de/index.php?neues)
(in German only)
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I trust my dealer. I think every bit of that is true. But I don´t have any additional information. The only thing I left out was a "cable kit for E-shuttle Schneider and Rodenstock", whatever that is, for EUR 450,- plus tax.
Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205273\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Could that be something related to the Schneider and Rodenstock electronic shutters that allow remote wired control of aperture and exposure time, among other things? Do H lenses have aperture and shutter speed settings on the lenses? If not, they would need to be controlled elctronically when on a T/S body or view camera.
Kumar
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Could that be something related to the Schneider and Rodenstock electronic shutters that allow remote wired control of aperture and exposure time, among other things?
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205278\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Makes sense.
Bernd
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If it's true then it's just a case of ...and so the pixel peeping race goes on........ Yawn!
I believe that Canon are probably at, or near, the top of their game squeezing 21Mp onto a 35mm sized sensor. Hasselblad have some headroom to play with and good luck to them. But, as Bernd implies, who needs it?
T/S, on the other hand, would be very interesting.
D.
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No sarcasm intended at all.
I'm a Hasselblad system owner and am always interested in any products that they bring to market. I just hope that these are things that I can use with my existing H1 and H2.
Even if they weren't I would still be interested and would report on them fairly. Remember, my beef isn't with the company or its products, just with some of its management's marketing policies.
Michael
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If it's true then it's just a case of ...and so the pixel peeping race goes on........ Yawn!
I believe that Canon are probably at, or near, the top of their game squeezing 21Mp onto a 35mm sized sensor. Hasselblad have some headroom to play with and good luck to them. But, as Bernd implies, who needs it?
T/S, on the other hand, would be very interesting.
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm waiting for a terapixel sensor cause someone somewhere said that velvia has an infinite resolution.
Cheers,
J
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T/S, on the other hand, would be very interesting.
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The only way a T/S adapter would work was with an additional lens, like the PC-Mutar 1,4 to increase the image circle. But that decreases image quality. You can read in all MF forums even without an adapter the MF-SLR-retro-focus-wideangles are not as good as the "digital" schneider and rodenstock wideangles.
So this new toy makes not much sense. For 3.600,- EUR plus tax you can buy half of a cambo/schneider lens combination.
Bernd
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The only way a T/S adapter would work was with an additional lens, like the PC-Mutar 1,4 to increase the image circle. But that decreases image quality. You can read in all MF forums even without an adapter the MF-SLR-retro-focus-wideangles are not as good as the "digital" schneider and rodenstock wideangles.
So this new toy makes not much sense. For 3.600,- EUR plus tax you can buy half of a cambo/schneider lens combination.
Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The "cable kit for e-shutter Rodenstock+Schneider: 450,- EUR" makes sense as Hasselblad had utilized a very slick cable system for Schneider lenses on the iXpress backs which eliminated the need for the Controller unit (similar to Eyelike). There is an adapter cable that has been available for some time that allows the CF digital backs to use the same cable setup.
I do know that a cable solution for the H3D series has been under development for some time but I am not aware whether it was an adapter cable or a whole new cabling solution. Based on the price I'm seeing, it appears to me it is a whole new cabling solution for the H3D series to interact with the Schneider Electronic Shutter without the Controller unit and also adds Rollei compatibilitty.
Just an educated guess.
There is indeed a US dealers conference call scheduled for next week, but at the rate we're going here, that just might be a summary for us....
C'mon people, dig!
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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No sarcasm intended at all.
I'm a Hasselblad system owner and am always interested in any products that they bring to market. I just hope that these are things that I can use with my existing H1 and H2.
Even if they weren't I would still be interested and would report on them fairly. Remember, my beef isn't with the company or its products, just with some of its management's marketing policies.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At least their aggressive marketing and insane pixel obsession will get those over-inflated prices down! - (along with Canon and Nikon chomping at the heels of 31Mp!!) .......$9000 rebate on a H3DII 22Mp!!??
The pixel wars and the ever deepening credit crunch are conspiring to make the next year or so the best time ever for buy into a reasonable pixel count MFDB system, if you have the work or spare cash.
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Plus I seriously doubt any of the mentioned lenses possibly have the image circle for T/S.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205271\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They do have the image circles needed, the adaptor will work with the 28, 35, 50 and 80mm lenses, +/-18mm shift, +/- 10 degrees tilt, +/- 90 degrees rotation.
Nick-T
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I really hope they've done this by going to full 645 (which would bring it almost exactly to 50 million pixels) rather than by squeezing more into the 36.7mm x 49mm sensor.
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At least their aggressive marketing and insane pixel obsession will get those over-inflated prices down! - (along with Canon and Nikon chomping at the heels of 31Mp!!) .......$9000 rebate on a H3DII 22Mp!!??
The pixel wars and the ever deepening credit crunch are conspiring to make the next year or so the best time ever for buy into a reasonable pixel count MFDB system, if you have the work or spare cash.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
$9000 rebate on the H3DII/31MP kit....seems like a good deal if you have a spare $18k.
Steve
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They do have the image circles needed, the adaptor will work with the 28, 35, 50 and 80mm lenses, +/-18mm shift, +/- 10 degrees tilt, +/- 90 degrees rotation.
Thats good news,Nick.Thx.
Do you have confirmation that the lenses can retain 'infinity' focus?
Mark
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I really hope they've done this by going to full 645 (which would bring it almost exactly to 50 million pixels) rather than by squeezing more into the 36.7mm x 49mm sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, we need larger sensors more than smaller photosites.
I wonder who else has developed a back with this new sensor? I doubt very much that Hasselblad is the only one.
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I really hope they've done this by going to full 645 (which would bring it almost exactly to 50 million pixels) rather than by squeezing more into the 36.7mm x 49mm sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, that perfect match is intriguing. Of course, it could also be that a rumor-monger computed that 50MP on exactly that assumption. Or that Kodak has gone to a nice round 6 microns in its current format (and maybe with its new CMOS technology, for which Kodak has claimed very large format capability through stitching.)
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Yes, we need larger sensors more than smaller photosites.
I wonder who else has developed a back with this new sensor? I doubt very much that Hasselblad is the only one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205324\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's a Kodak sensor so I would expect Phase to announce a back soon..
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Thats good news,Nick.Thx.
Do you have confirmation that the lenses can retain 'infinity' focus?
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205322\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Mark
I've asked the question of Gothenburg and will report back, I am certainly under the impression that the adaptor (it's not a body) will allow infinity focus.
Nick-T
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Deleted
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They do have the image circles needed, the adaptor will work with the 28, 35, 50 and 80mm lenses, +/-18mm shift, +/- 10 degrees tilt, +/- 90 degrees rotation.
Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I distinctly remember that the 28mm lens has an image circle just large enough to cover a 48x36mm sensor so movements won't be possible.
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I really hope they've done this by going to full 645 (which would bring it almost exactly to 50 million pixels) rather than by squeezing more into the 36.7mm x 49mm sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't see how this would be possible with the H3D anyway. The camera is designed for a frame of 48x36mm, hence the 'full frame' nomenclature.
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I distinctly remember that the 28mm lens has an image circle just large enough to cover a 48x36mm sensor so movements won't be possible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205332\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The information above is direct from the product manager but I'm sure you're right and he's wrong
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The information above is direct from the product manager but I'm sure you're right and he's wrong
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205336\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, yes.
Which product manager? Apparently I know more about his products than he does, and I'm not even a Hass H user.
The information about the 28mm lens is in an interview with Hasselblad's CEO, Christian Poulsen.
But perhaps more convincingly, have a look at the 28mm lens product info sheet: "The HCD 4/28 mm lens is designed solely for digital use. This means that the lens is designed
for a format of 37x49 mm and does not cover the film format (41.5x56mm)."
Even more evidence: look at the MTF charts. Performance drops off fast on the corner of the digital sensor (at 30mm).
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well according to the german website link , hasselblad announced a 50mpix H3D and a T/S adapter for the 28/35/50/80mm lenses....
i wonder who makes the sensor and if kodak makes it why doesn't phase have it?
and how the hell do they fit a T/S adapter between the lens and camera and still keep infinity focus? and there is still the question of coverage, as noted here before some of these lenses just cover their format.....
but again this is coming from the company that had the first fullframe digital MF system...so maybe they just squeeze an extra 11mpix out of the 39mpix chip and the T/S only applies to the center of the image and distances up to 2ft....
either way....the sensor that would get me excited would not fit into the H3 and the lenses would not cover it...so i can't wait for the full US press release and the usual email bombardment...
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Nick-T, TechTalk please chime in.
I'm just wonderin' out loud:
-why it's called an H3DII-50, and not H4D-50 instead.
-if the 50MP sensor is a 37x49 version of the micro-lensed 31MP
Billy
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John,
I had the same thought, but Linos/Rodenstock makes a 45mm + 55mm, and Schneider makes a 47mm instead of a 50mm.
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John,
I had the same thought, but Linos/Rodenstock makes a 45mm + 55mm, and Schneider makes a 47mm instead of a 50mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205358\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
and you never can squeeze a symmetric or nearly symmetric lens as the 24/28/35 schneider or roenstocks on a mirror based camera.
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possible the T/S adapter would work w/ some type of software solution??
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If the adapter is for the existing Hasselblad H lenses, then NO way in hell there is any room for movements. If the adapter is for some other brand of lenses, perhaps intended for larger format uses, i.e. Schneiders, then it is quite possible to have movements. Our OP cuts and pastes some fairly obscure info with no mention of what 28,35,50,80 lenses the adapter is for.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry posting between shots.
The adaptor is for H lenses.
Nick-T
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I just hope that these are things that I can use with my existing H1 and H2.
Even if they weren't I would still be interested and would report on them fairly. Remember, my beef isn't with the company or its products, just with some of its management's marketing policies.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, But I fear H1 & 2 users are going to be left out in the rain.
Sure do hope i'm wrong.....
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I can hardly believe , that there will be an adapter for the 28,35,50 and 80mm lenses .
The image circle of these lenses will be too small to allow a shift of 10 or even 15mm .
Also I doubt that the DAC tool in PHOCUS could correct that much vignetting .
I have heard a rumor as well , but that was not about an adapter , but a WA camera with the ability of shift and tilt and special WA lenses .
I am very curious , what the future will bring .
Jürgen
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Thats good news,Nick.Thx.
Do you have confirmation that the lenses can retain 'infinity' focus?
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205322\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It will focus at infinity. Also I'm told it will work on h1/h2 which is very good news. Nick-T
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voodoo [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Voodoo could be some kind of glass in the extension
one would assume one could build a TS adapter with a lens in it that would still acheive infinity with a loss of angle of view
a bendy 1.4 converter
I am not going to put money on that though
S
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Voodoo could be some kind of glass in the extension
one would assume one could build a TS adapter with a lens in it that would still acheive infinity with a loss of angle of view
a bendy 1.4 converter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Like Hasselblad has already built for the V system, "PC-Mutar Shift Converter".
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Like Hasselblad has alerady built vor the V system, "PC-Mutar Shift Converter".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
indeed
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a bendy 1.4 converter
I
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you nailed it Sam:
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I think you nailed it Sam:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205556\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nick:
Is this (picture) what the tilt shift adaptor actually looks like? The picture looks a bit like a Fuji 680 type adaptor. Does this adaptor also allow for closer focusing than the usual 600 mm on the 80 mm & 50 mm lens?
Cheers
Brent Daniels
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other links in Germany >>
http://www.ppl.de/index.php?option=com_con...id=157&Itemid=1 (http://www.ppl.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=157&Itemid=1)
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/50-Megapi...elblad-H3DII-50 (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/50-Megapixel-im-Mittelformat-Hasselblad-H3DII-50)
http://www.probis.de/web/index.php?id=43&tx_ttnews (http://www.probis.de/web/index.php?id=43&tx_ttnews)[tt_news]=159&tx_ttnews[backPid]=2&cHash=32cd248806
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I think it's correct!
It's like the PC-Mutar 1.4X.
a 28(29) will become a 40 mm etc.
Still a nice accessory and I would love Zeiss or Schneider to make one for my Hy6!
Are you listening Sinar?
Cheers,
Willem.
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Another German link with some more information on the new camera:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/50-Megapi...elblad-H3DII-50 (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/50-Megapixel-im-Mittelformat-Hasselblad-H3DII-50)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=205583\")
Here's the link translated in english [a href=\"http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2F50-Megapixel-im-Mittelformat-Hasselblad-H3DII-50&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Translate]http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?d...TrUrl=Translate[/url]
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It's not clear to me if the T/S is only for the new camera or for the existing line too.
That would be of great interest to me.
Anyone care to speculate?
D.
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It's not clear to me if the T/S is only for the new camera or for the existing line too.
That would be of great interest to me.
Anyone care to speculate?
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205663\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Be nice to bolt this on my Mamiya with adapter
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I think it's correct!
It's like the PC-Mutar 1.4X.
a 28(29) will become a 40 mm etc.
Still a nice accessory and I would love Zeiss or Schneider to make one for my Hy6!
Are you listening Sinar?
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205626\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Willem,
I might be wrong but I believe that we have large enough image circles from our lenses that we don't need an optical converter, which means higher IQ, no crop factor and no light loss. Instead of an adapter, perhaps there should be a Hy6 'flex' body, which allows infinity focus. (We can already use our lenses as tilt/shift lenses on a view camera with a Rollei lens controller.)
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Willem,
I might be wrong but I believe that we have large enough image circles from our lenses that we don't need an optical converter, which means higher IQ, no crop factor and no light loss. Instead of an adapter, perhaps there should be a Hy6 'flex' body, which allows infinity focus. (We can already use our lenses as tilt/shift lenses on a view camera with a Rollei lens controller.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So Nick-T was right then?
...its just I missed the apology!
Jo S.x
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So Nick-T was right then?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, I was talking about Rollei lenses
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No, I was talking about Rollei lenses
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nevermind!
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Willem,
I might be wrong but I believe that we have large enough image circles from our lenses that we don't need an optical converter, which means higher IQ, no crop factor and no light loss. Instead of an adapter, perhaps there should be a Hy6 'flex' body, which allows infinity focus. (We can already use our lenses as tilt/shift lenses on a view camera with a Rollei lens controller.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Graham,
I think you're right about this - certainly some of these Rollei 6000 series do for sure like the 150mm apo f/4.6 but not positive they all do - anyone know more? I know that some of the can be used on the Xact2 and other cameras with movements so my guess is many of them do.
Eric
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I just got am email message from a local dealer here in Frankfurt.
H3DII/50 EUR 30,000,-
T/S-adapter for 28/35/50/80mm EUR 3.600,-
large-format adapter for H3D: EUR 1.600,-
plus tax.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205244\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm sure Nick or Yair could answer this a lot better than any of my suppositions, but is there really a market for 50mpx capture, unless it's doing something really different, like adjustable iso, or a full 645 crop without the 1.16 factor? Or will it produce an in camera preview that's really useable?
This isn't a negative thought and I'm not implying somebody doesn't want/need it, but it just seems amazing to me that we're getting into the 50 so range.
JR
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One fact I read in one of these links is that for using the 1.600,- EUR Hasselblad large format adapter you already have to own a Linhof slinding adapter.
Pretty expensive solution for using a shift/technical camera.
Bernd
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What exactly is a large format adapter? How is it to be used [along with a Linhof sliding adapter]?
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Graham,
I think you're right about this - certainly some of these Rollei 6000 series do for sure like the 150mm apo f/4.6 but not positive they all do - anyone know more? I know that some of the can be used on the Xact2 and other cameras with movements so my guess is many of them do.
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
80mm on most AFi lenses and 90mm on the 90mm. HC lenses if I'm not mistaken are 70mm mostly.
Yair
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On the question "What is a sliding adapter?":
The back of a H3D has a Hasselblad H-mount.
If you want to use your old large-format camera, for example a Sinar, you need something (a "bridge") to mechanically adapt your back from Hasselblad-H-mount to Sinar plate.
But this offers no possibility for manually composing and focussing on a focossing screen. Here comes the sliding adapter which has two positions: in one position a usual focussing screen is mounted and can be used. In the second position your back is mounted. After preparing the image with the focussing screen you slide the adapter to the other position and now can continue working with your digital back.
Bernd
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On the question "What is a sliding adapter?":
The back of a H3D has a Hasselblad H-mount.
If you want to use your old large-format camera, for example a Sinar, you need something (a "bridge") to mechanically adapt your back from Hasselblad-H-mount to Sinar plate.
But this offers no possibility for manually composing and focussing on a focossing screen. Here comes the sliding adapter which has two positions: in one position a usual focussing screen is mounted and can be used. In the second position your back is mounted. After preparing the image with the focussing screen you slide the adapter to the other position and now can continue working with your digital back.
Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you, Bernd.
I own a Sinar sliding back, and use one made by Kapture Group on occasion.
They already exist to fit an H-mount digital back on a view camera,
so why is Hasselblad getting into that market? Does theirs function differently?
Edit: Quoted post #67, and made last sentence in bold type.
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Thank you, Bernd.
I own a Sinar sliding back, and use one made by Kapture Group on occasion.
They already exist to fit an H-mount digital back on a view camera,
so why is Hasselblad getting into that market? Does theirs function differently?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206059\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are asking me questions ...
Everything I know are a the few informations on that homepage.
Bernd
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You are asking me questions ...
Everything I know are a the few informations on that homepage.
Bernd
I did not ask you what a sliding adapter is, Bernd.
Thank you, Bernd.
I own a Sinar sliding back, and use one made by Kapture Group on occasion.
They already exist to fit an H-mount digital back on a view camera,
so why is Hasselblad getting into that market? Does theirs function differently?
At this stage, I await Hasselblad's official Press Release for clarification.
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Here, Billy.
http://www.hasselblad.se/promotions/50-promotion.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.se/promotions/50-promotion.aspx)
Best regards,
Thierry
At this stage, I await Hasselblad's official Press Release for clarification.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I did not ask you what a sliding adapter is, Bernd.
At this stage, I await Hasselblad's official Press Release for clarification.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206147\")
Hw about right here...
[a href=\"http://www.hasselblad.se/promotions/50-promotion.aspx]http://www.hasselblad.se/promotions/50-promotion.aspx[/url]
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"the H3DII-50 camera system has been specially designed to meet the most exacting demands of high-end commercial photographers who require the ultimate in both image quality and performance."
Bad news for all you that thought you were getting that from 39mpx, apparently you need 50mpx.
Kevin.
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I already put up my CF39 for sale, haven't you seen it? I wonder how much you will notice the difference between 39 & 50.
I am trying to go for the multishot version of the 39 BTW. I am sure the difference between 39single & 39multi is larger than between 39 & 50.
I guess if you enter the MFDB world it might make sense to go for 50, maybe.
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Well, that answers a question that was looming over everyone's head - it is a new Kodak 48mm x 36mm sensor. NOT a 645 full frame CCD. It appears that glory will still go to PhaseOne at Photokina?
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I already put up my CF39 for sale, haven't you seen it? I wonder how much you will notice the difference between 39 & 50.
I am trying to go for the multishot version of the 39 BTW. I am sure the difference between 39single & 39multi is larger than between 39 & 50.
I guess if you enter the MFDB world it might make sense to go for 50, maybe.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dustbak,
Interesting points.
There is talk, apparently, that MS may be difficult on this camera. Not sure why though.
Personally, my 39MP MS blows everything I've ever owned clean out of the water. My clients don't need 50MP, so neither to I.
Talk also that delivery is not until early 2009, so if you haven't taken the plunge it might be far more fruitful cutting a bargain on a 39Mp Single or MS in the meantime.
Denis
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50MP at 60 frames per minute is impressive. I wonder what other improvements Kodak made (are pixel wells less deep for less color cast?)
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You know some 24 year old newbie "fashion" shooters will get this 50 megapixel gorilla for their Model Mayhem casting couch sessions. They will spend all their time trying to make the 200+ megabyte files look reasonably good as 1000 pixel wide, 2meg jpegs.
In all seriousness, I understand and admire the integration of the H system. I don't think locking people out of lenses via firmware is cool, a la the H2 and the 28mm, but whatever. The t/s adapter is a great idea. I just like the fact they brought it to the market. But 50 megapoixels, well, its rather unnecessary, no? I know I know, they all will be introducing stupid high megapixel backs. But why? I just want a bigger chip, is all.
Perhaps the MFDB makers should concentrate on fixing the deficiencies of their existing products rather than bombarding us with megapixels we don't need?
If I'm being totaly honest, I could get away with shooting a 5D, 6x7 and 4x5 film, and renting backs only when I need big and fast tethering. The last thing I need is 50 megapixels.
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It amazes me that Hasselblad continues to call it a full frame sensor when it is not.
Additionally, keep in mind that larger files may not be needed for fashion or portrait work, but for landscape guys this can be seen as a plus. Something for everybody when you see all of the different sensors out there. The good thing (hopefully) is that prior generation chips should be more affordable.
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50MP at 60 frames per minute is impressive. I wonder what other improvements Kodak made (are pixel wells less deep for less color cast?)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just like when Kodak introduced a new film, it doesn't really matter until you shoot with it see what it looks like.
In all honesty that's kind of what we are talking about, a new film . . . right? Except nowdays new films cost $30,000.
I was a little surprised that this new film is essentially 400 iso with 800 only in their Phocus software.
I wonder if this means a dng will not go to 800 iso?
I do think Hasselblad has upped their market presence a great deal and has improved the overall look of their camera and backs.
To me the deal breaker on the H system is the file format being proprietary. Whether you can convert it to DNG or not, it's still another step, another link the workflow chain and if you produce a lot of imagery, another format to store and archive.
I do think there is some obvious points missed, such as a full frame 645, higher iso, (or would this be a great candidate for that pixel binning Phase tried where the iso doubled?), a better preview jpeg that is generated in camera and of course costs.
Regardless, when these backs are announced, unless there is a definate change like a detailed lcd, or wireless previews, or something that hasn't been out there before, you can only look at them as more detailed film.
Maybe the market is for landscape photographers that make big prints, or maybe the market is for detailed scientific study, I don't know, but I think when hasselblad runs their surveys trying to decide where to go with product, they should include my clients.
JR
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Hi
I normally stay away from Hasselblad threads since I don't use one. With this new 50 MP sensor made by Kodax is the cat out of the bag in regards for a new Phase back? What is Dalsa up to? Why not a true FF sensor by Phase ( 1:1 ) or is it possible????
Denis
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It amazes me that Hasselblad continues to call it a full frame sensor when it is not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
True, they mention the 28 mm lens as being really 28 mm... and - worst IMHO - they compute the magnification factor for the H3D31 based on the ratio between that sensor and a 36x48mm sensor...
That's totally misleading and clearly un-ethical.
But what I find most disapointing in the spec of the new H3DII50 is that exposures still appear to be limited to 32 sec...
Cheers,
Bernard
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A random thought.
What if someone came up with a plate that embeds four 16 or 22MP, 9 or 12 micron sensors? Each sensor is activated either sequentially or together, and CS3 puts them all together and makes a great 100" inch wide print. The R&D for these sensors is already done, so they shouldn't be very expensive. Architectural, landscape and product photographers pull their Sinars and Linhofs out of the closet, and leave the H3IID50 with 1fps and 1/800 flash sync to fashion photographers...
Heck, I'd be happy if they could do that with the 6 or 11MP sensors!
Cheers,
Kumar
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James,
That is very interesting that you bring up Pixel Binning like on the original P25. Where it gave you 800 iso (vs 400 iso native) at a reduced file size. This could be a differentiating feature (for Phase since they historically have used the same sensors as Hassy)that would allow you to shoot at variety of resolutions instead of the native 50MP and of course increase your sensitivity at the same time.
From what I recall the files from the original P25 looked good using this technique, but at the time I think people were more caught up in the the size thing, so it was often overlooked.
So this could become a method for a variable resolution type feature people have been asking for from MF digital backs.
Looking forward to seeing what PhaseOne has up their sleeves!
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration (http://www.captureintegration.com)
My Blog (http://www.captureintegration.com/category/lance/)
lance@captureintegration.com
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Hi
I normally stay away from Hasselblad threads since I don't use one. With this new 50 MP sensor made by Kodax is the cat out of the bag in regards for a new Phase back? What is Dalsa up to? Why not a true FF sensor by Phase ( 1:1 ) or is it possible????
Denis
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206188\")
When I see these annoucements I can take them in stride, because in the last 2 to 3 years of digital client's don't really ask what the file size is anymore. I believe they assume we use what is right for each job and they have come to accept digital, without a lot of reservation.
So in other words, I'm not pressured to go out and buy a lot of new equipment.
I do wonder how the digital techs and rental houses handle this.
Does the NON digital savvy photographer walk in and say, "uh I need the biggest one, you know that Hasselblad 50 megabyte or 50 mega something camera. Yea the big one"
Does the tech or rental house have to start stocking up on 50mpx backs?
Once again, this doesn't really effect me today because nobody knows what's going on behind the curtain of what I use, so if I deliver a file that's 300 ppi to a specific size I'm fine.
Now to take this one more step, if a camera maker wants to force me into buying something make a back or camera that does something unqiue that goes on in front of the curtain, specifically faster better previews and wifi previews to devices like an Ipod touch.
The client that comes off of that location or set where the photographer could beem detailed images to a handheld device will be looking for it next time and it's something I would seriously think about.
Or if a maker wants to move me to buying something today, make the processing and effecting of images easier.
I try to do a few personal projects every year and when I see one like this.
(from a-photoeditor blog) [a href=\"http://tinyurl.com/5ywalf]http://tinyurl.com/5ywalf[/url] I think about it but the thing that gives me pause is the post production work with digital.
I think about how long a month of shooting will take me to process, select, effect, purpose, print and show.
There is as much back end time as there is shoot time.
So if someone wants to move me, give me a film presets that look like film, wb corrections that are more than global, generic click and adjust, and give the ability to make my own film looks, lock them into the camera and go shoot.
There is a lot to digital that can be way better than film (knowing you have the shot), but the back end is a lot of work and takes a lot of study and time.
So rather than 50mpx how about 50 film looks?
Or take this over to the camera side. Why doesn't the H series or the Mamiya have the same amount and variety of lenses as the previous cameras, the V and the original Mamiya 645.
How about real tilt shifts, fast lenses, and a multitude of Leaf shutters? Where is a 300mm 2.8 lens?
How about removable finders, right angle finders, high eye point finders, you know the stuff you use to buy for a professional system?
Sometimes I think the makers of this equipment are answering questions that nobody is asking, or not answering some of the things we need/want addressed.
JR
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Or if a maker wants to move me to buying something today, make the processing and effecting of images easier.
I try to do a few personal projects every year and when I see one like this.
(from a-photoeditor blog) http://tinyurl.com/5ywalf (http://tinyurl.com/5ywalf) I think about it but the thing that gives me pause is the post production work with digital.
I think about how long a month of shooting will take me to process, select, effect, purpose, print and show.
There is as much back end time as there is shoot time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you could edit, do ADR, foley, and run some FX on a documentary that took a month to shoot in less time than post work on a months worth of MFDB files.
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I think you could edit, do ADR, foley, and run some FX on a documentary that took a month to shoot in less time than post work on a months worth of MFDB files.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206205\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is the absolute truth.
I've talked to a lot of camera makers, a lot of labs, digital labs, techs etc. and I am amazed at how hitting a film look is still a roll your own color, or the makers are just shooting color charts and veggies to get to a look.
Before film and labs die completely somebody should take their camera and back along with about 200 rolls of film and shoot every type of scene/lighting possible, shoot film, lay the film next to the computer and make presets for their system.
You know, call it nc100 hard light, nc100 back light, nc100 soft side light, nc100 pushed one stop, nc100 low key, nc100 dark, nc100 . . .
JR
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... it is a new Kodak 48mm x 36mm sensor ... It appears that glory will still go to PhaseOne at Photokina?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, it appears that the MF photographic sensor industry has settled at 36x48mm maximum digital format size (or to be pedantic, 36.8x49.1mm from Kodak). Kodak has now used exactly this size for three generation of sensors (22MP, 39MP, 50MP) going back about six years, and has used exactly that maximum short dimension of 36.8mm for four generations, going back to its 16MP square sensor.
I would be stunned if Kodak makes another slightly larger sensor, and so having one used only by Hasselblad, another only by Mamiya/Phase. Or in fact if any sensor maker finds it worthwhile to produce a MF sensor in a format that Hasselblad is not interested in using.
Like it or not, there seem to be substantial cost and/or technical reasons for staying at these maximum dimensions for so long. (Maybe chips per wafer drops substantially if chips get any bigger.)
Perhaps it is time to start adapting to the new formats of the digital era, instead of insisting that only the historic film formats of 24x36mm, 42.5x56mm and 56x56mm are divinely appointed and anything else is a stop-gap measure. Adaptions like using a viewfinder that displays and meters correctly for the sensor format, like the 3.1x mag. HVD90x. (Though of course, Hasselblad also has the 2.7x mag. HV90x 645 format VF available, as used on the H2F, so all H bodies could accommodate 645 format sensors with the right VF and with all lenses except the 28mm.)
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Perhaps it is time to start adapting to the new formats of the digital era, instead of insisting that only the historic film formats of 24x36mm, 42.5x56mm and 56x56mm are divinely appointed and anything else is a stop-gap measure. Adaptions like using a viewfinder that displays and meters correctly for the sensor format, like the 3.1x mag. HVD90x. (Though of course, Hasselblad also has the 2.7x mag. HV90x 645 format VF available, as used on the H2F, so all H bodies could accommodate 645 format sensors with the right VF and with all lenses except the 28mm.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, though lenses need to come down in size and f-stops need to go from 2.8/3.5 to 2.0 and 2.4.
We need 110's, 120's, 70mm, etc. etc.
with a 1.16 crop a 150mm lens puts you way back, with a 1.26 crop it puts you out the door.
(174mm) and (189mm).
JR
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No, it appears that the MF photographic sensor industry has settled at 36x48mm maximum digital format size (or to be pedantic, 36.8x49.1mm from Kodak). Kodak has now used exactly this size for three generation of sensors (22MP, 39MP, 50MP) going back about six years, and has used exactly that maximum short dimension of 36.8mm for four generations, going back to its 16MP square sensor.
I would be stunned if Kodak makes another slightly larger sensor, and so having one used only by Hasselblad, another only by Mamiya/Phase. Or in fact if any sensor maker finds it worthwhile to produce a MF sensor in a format that Hasselblad is not interested in using.
Like it or not, there seem to be substantial cost and/or technical reasons for staying at these maximum dimensions for so long. (Maybe chips per wafer drops substantially if chips get any bigger.)
Perhaps it is time to start adapting to the new formats of the digital era, instead of insisting that only the historic film formats of 24x36mm, 42.5x56mm and 56x56mm are divinely appointed and anything else is a stop-gap measure. Adaptions like using a viewfinder that displays and meters correctly for the sensor format, like the 3.1x mag. HVD90x. (Though of course, Hasselblad also has the 2.7x mag. HV90x 645 format VF available, as used on the H2F, so all H bodies could accommodate 645 format sensors with the right VF and with all lenses except the 28mm.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you re: legacy formats, but it is the lenses which keep people thinking in terms of 35mm, 645, 6x6 etc. There are no digital era lenses, aside from the Mamiya and blad 28s. Everything is based on 120 film.
So the question becomes: who is going to change the market by producing a real high end digital camera for the new age, with new lenses to fit the sensor sizes offered by Kodak and Dalsa?
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More information is now available on their website:
http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets/h-system.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets/h-system.aspx)
http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h-system/hts-15.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h-system/hts-15.aspx)
The T/S adaptor only works with 4 wider lenses it seems.
The Sliding adapter looks funny, still don't get it. Is it just a "where shall i put my batteriy" thing? Most view cameras already accept a H-Mount back anyway.
Tom
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i think the 50 mp cam from hasselblad has come just in the nick of time. we've finally reached overkill in the resolution department, there is as of now absolutely no other way to get photographers to buy new cameras than to 1. sink prices and 2. make better cameras.
better higher iso, better camera & back integration, better (faster) lenses, better lcd's, yes!!! better software, better looking files that reduce the need for hours of post processing, better (higher) shutter speeds, better (lower) camera vibration via better (less) mirror slap or, uh oh, in camera vr, better moire reduction, better (lower) battery consumption, better (smaller) bodies and lenses for better (easier) use on location, and last but not least better (beautifully) designed cameras (hasselblad is the h the best you can do?!? look at hans j. wegner, arne jacobsen, verner panton, finn juhl, so many great scandinavian (danish) designers... oh well, just hire a danish designer and say he's swedish, we'll never know.).
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lenses need to come down in size and f-stops need to go from 2.8/3.5 to 2.0 and 2.4.
We need 110's, 120's, 70mm, etc. etc.
with a 1.16 crop a 150mm lens puts you way back, with a 1.26 crop it puts you out the door.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[Edit:] James Russell and TMARK have hit on questions I had, and I was going to speculate that a 70mm or 75mm standard lens would be a natural addition for "48mm format".
How much does the 14% linear difference with Kodak's 49.1x36.8mm sensors hurt with framing, perspective, or needed working distance, particularly in the studio?
How much difference does it make to DOF and OOF effects wide open? (Optical formulas and an essay at this site suggest that backing up with same focal length and same f-stop should given a bit more DOF, but equally strong visible blurring on background elements well behind the subject.)
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[Edit:] James Russell and TMARK have hit on questions I had, and I was going to speculate that a 70mm or 75mm standard lens would be a natural addition for "48mm format".
How much does the 14% linear difference with Kodak's 49.1x36.8mm sensors hurt with framing, perspective, or needed working distance, particularly in the studio?
How much difference does it make to DOF and OOF effects wide open? (Optical formulas and an essay at this site suggest that backing up with same focal length and same f-stop should given a bit more DOF, but equally strong visible blurring on background elements well behind the subject.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't see much of a difference in practice between my P30 and a P45 in terms of oof, but again, this is in practice and I don't have a P45, so my experience is limited.
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So if someone wants to move me, give me a film presets that look like film, wb corrections that are more than global, generic click and adjust, and give the ability to make my own film looks, lock them into the camera and go shoot.
There is a lot to digital that can be way better than film (knowing you have the shot), but the back end is a lot of work and takes a lot of study and time.
So rather than 50mpx how about 50 film looks?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I could not agree with you more. I have suggested this on a number of occasions with Hasselblad, and they seem to have no interest in it. They appear to be wedded to the idea that the camera and software should be set up to provide "accurate" color as the default setting(a good Macbeth Color Checker?), and if you want an alternative look, go figure out how to do it yourself and create a preset in the software. Well, it's easy in digital to amp up the look of the file with S curves and saturation bumps, but I have grown to dislike that look. Most digital color work that I see looks way over the top. It screams. I find it difficult with digital to achieve the look of beautiful, large format color neg films like you see in the work of photographers like Joel Meyerowitz. Hasselblad should go figure this all out for me. This is their job, not mine. I am NOT a color scientist. There are no doubt a lot of unemployed guys in Rochester that were terrific at doing the R&D on film that could help Hasselblad.
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No H3DII-22 mentioned in the new PDF... So to get "FF", than means we have to buy H3DII-39? That's a steep entry price.
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Would it be safe to assume that use of the coming Tilt Shift adapter will introduce
some color shift into captures when shift and/or tilt is applied?
As I am more familiar with how Phase handles corrective files to deal with LCC (lens
cast correction) and the ability to work untethered I would also like to know if the
Blad backs can apply their corrective files in post foollowing shoot or does the corrective
capture need to be handled in a tethered workflow.
Thx,
Mark
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No H3DII-22 mentioned in the new PDF... So to get "FF", than means we have to buy H3DII-39? That's a steep entry price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206238\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the UK site, the H3DIIs are now listed as the 31MP, 39MP and the 50MP. The 22MP is no longer listed. The 31MP seems to be the entry level now. IIRC, the H3DII/31 is selling for ~$18k after rebate.
Steve
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50MP at 60 frames per minute is impressive. I wonder what other improvements Kodak made (are pixel wells less deep for less color cast?)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the specs say it shoots 1.1frame/sec and 33/minute....still impressive and should be more then fast enough for burst use....
i guess now i know how they go around the lens coverage problem with the T/S adapter....it turns the 28 into a 45....1.5 magnification...i guess that is a trade-off some people can live with but for the architecture/landscape shooters this probably won't do it at all...
50 mpix at 400iso at 1.1 frames/sec....has anyone involved in the production of this ever read ANY feedback in ANY forum? i honestly doubt that there is a visible difference between the 39 and the 50...especially since the pixel size is going into a direction i really did not want to see it going....
as someone here said: it it time someone took all the "old" chips and put together a rig of 4, sync the exposure and make somekind of stitch action to create one large raw file....actually even 2 would be great on a fuji 680....
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No H3DII-22 mentioned in the new PDF... So to get "FF", than means we have to buy H3DII-39? That's a steep entry price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206238\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is probably little difference in unit production cost for the various "48x36mm" backs, so price differences reflects demand and hopefully backs using the now "obsolescent" 39MP sensors will slide down in price, just as the 22MP did after the 35Mp and 39MP backs arrived. And look for bargains on those 22MP dinosaurs!
As to likely sales success of the new 50MP sensor: wasn't there a lot of forum skepticism about the need for 39MP? Sales often to tell a different story than forum chatter. The enthusiasm for the resolution advantages of the 39MP MS back over 39MP single shot shows that some people want higher resolution, and for some, MS is not an option. A 39MP MS raises resolution by about 1.4x or more, so the lens resolution demands are greater than for a 50MP single shot sensor; more like 80MP.
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It's not clear to me if the T/S is only for the new camera or for the existing line too.
That would be of great interest to me.
Anyone care to speculate?
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205663\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The T/S will work on any H series camera but of course you will only get the DAC corrections with a Hasselblad back.
Nick-T
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Just like when Kodak introduced a new film, it doesn't really matter until you shoot with it see what it looks like.
In all honesty that's kind of what we are talking about, a new film . . . right? Except nowdays new films cost $30,000.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't need nor want a new back but I have looked at the price of the backs as I did when I shot film. $25,000 is not that much compared to what I used to pay for film and processing in a year.
I didn't shoot crazy quantities of film like the people shooters did but still my large format film with processing was between 10-20K per year. Yes, still less than the price of a back but not that much less.
Of course the big difference was I, and everybody else, marked up the film and processing and past it on to the clients. I have a hard time adding an outright charge for the digital "film" and hide it in other ways nowadays.
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Many pros simply add a "digital image processing fee" to their invoices. This is pretty much SOP in most major markets.
Michael
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Yes, I'm aware of that. I do things differently.
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Many pros simply add a "digital image processing fee" to their invoices. This is pretty much SOP in most major markets.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Correct and on a per job basis, it probably is a wash or somewhat of a small profit center.
Everyone works differently, some hand it off to a digital tech, process everything out to Tiffs and are done with it, some photographers offer more full service. Usually it's client dependent.
Then again when figuring in digital profits, you have to consider computers, software, upgrades, multiple storage drives, portable drives, battery power sources, backups, monitors, calibration tools and that is before you factor in the time it takes to learn and do it.
Actually we've traced and put a average number to what anyone in my studio should be charging everytime they touch a computer and factoring in the above, you can't get close to charging the full amount.
Actually if I told you what I spent on hard drives a year, nobody would probably believe it, because I don't believe it, though today I just added another $4,000 in drive expenditures and we're early into the month.
In fact, speaking to someone today about the difference in digital now vs. 5 years ago, my workflow is virtually identical. Some of the software is a little faster and more featured, some of the cameras have more resolution and shoot a little faster, but compared to the days of the 1ds1 to now, there is not that much difference in shoot to finish workflow, except now I deliver 95% of our work over the internet where 5 years ago 95% went hard copy.
Anyway, if your busy and you keep on on upgrades, computers/cameras/software, even if you skip a generation or two digital is much more expensive than film.
A studio manager I had in LA that started working digital with me, had probably the most astute observation yet, comparing film to digital.
He was sitting at his computers, cataloging drives with a calibration puck hanging off his monitor and said "You know . . . some day we'll look at a roll of film and think "with processing that only cost me $15 and we'll laugh at how cheap that was".
Out of the mouths of babes.
The other thing that few factor in the digital process is how much more we shoot per day, and I don't mean holding the button down, but how many more setups and shots we accomplish in a digital day vs. the polaroid/film days.
That factors in also.
JR
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The other thing that few factor in the digital process is how much more we shoot per day, and I don't mean holding the button down, but how many more setups and shots we accomplish in a digital day vs. the polaroid/film days.
That factors in also.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Digital brought these efficiencies that allow multiple set ups etc. We bought the gear, put in the time, etc to realize this efficiency, and rates have remained stagnant or have declined in real terms. I think there must be a price drop on MFDB because the photography market in general doesn't really support it.
When I shoot film I drop it off, get contacts messengered to me, send the contacts to the client, wait for selects, and have it scanned for digital delivery. Meanwhile I'm slurping lattes and chatting up clients, not starring at an ACD posting to LL as another batch runs.
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Anyone of you know for certain if it is possible to use the HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter
on a H3d39
maybe this was mentioned before
skimmed the thread without finding anything about it
thanks
m*
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Anyone of you know for certain if it is possible to use the HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter
on a H3d39
maybe this was mentioned before
skimmed the thread without finding anything about it
thanks
m*
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206304\")
It's been mentioned, yes, but until it's released..
MR's write up: [a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/H3DII-50.shtml]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../H3DII-50.shtml[/url]
Hasselblad's write up: http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1332322...s_datasheet.pdf (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1332322/uk_hts_datasheet.pdf)
I am looking forward to the T/S.
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Anyone of you know for certain if it is possible to use the HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter
on a H3d39
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206304\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes absolutely.
Nick-T
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Yes absolutely.
Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206308\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I should also add, that since the 50mp version isn't slated for release until 2009 Q1, the T/S must have been developed on/for the H3DII31/39.
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I should also add, that since the 50mp version isn't slated for release until 2009 Q1, the T/S must have been developed on/for the H3DII31/39.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206309\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks!
this is good news to get confirmed
as in my case, this will kill a few birds with one stone
m*
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ya, I'm on board for a T/S adapter - I'm selling of some soon to be redundant gear...T/S adapter is best news I've heard on this system in a while...
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A studio manager I had in LA that started working digital with me, had probably the most astute observation yet, comparing film to digital.
He was sitting at his computers, cataloging drives with a calibration puck hanging off his monitor and said "You know . . . some day we'll look at a roll of film and think "with processing that only cost me $15 and we'll laugh at how cheap that was".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes and no. Costs are now front loaded and the photographer bears/charges most of them. Formerly, they were distributed over a wider area.
On the issue of charging, I charge the same for a 39Mp file as I do for a 4x5 sheet. In my part of the world, a 60x45cm scan from a 4x5 tranny would cost more than that. Maybe I'm not charging enough!
The advantage is that, when I'm working on a large shoot involving lots of table top shots, the processing fee is larger than the shoot fee. If there were any complaints, and there never have been, I'd show them the scanning house's price list and say, "OK, let's shoot it on film."
But, I'm now way off topic. Apologies to OP.
D.
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I like the HTS 1.5!
However,as a Hy6 user, I could do similar with my 55PCS + Longar 1.4x and get a 77 PCS.
Sure,with the Blad you get a 45 with using the 28.
Still need that arTec! LOL
Cheers,
Willem.
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I could not agree with you more. I have suggested this on a number of occasions with Hasselblad, and they seem to have no interest in it. They appear to be wedded to the idea that the camera and software should be set up to provide "accurate" color as the default setting(a good Macbeth Color Checker?), and if you want an alternative look, go figure out how to do it yourself and create a preset in the software. Well, it's easy in digital to amp up the look of the file with S curves and saturation bumps, but I have grown to dislike that look. Most digital color work that I see looks way over the top. It screams. I find it difficult with digital to achieve the look of beautiful, large format color neg films like you see in the work of photographers like Joel Meyerowitz. Hasselblad should go figure this all out for me. This is their job, not mine. I am NOT a color scientist. There are no doubt a lot of unemployed guys in Rochester that were terrific at doing the R&D on film that could help Hasselblad.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am the only one at ICC meetings who agrees with himself that there is a problem getting good color from RAW files. The tech issues are solved, but a disagreement among the various members of the market make the leading brand of Raw software about as color friendly as Windows is user-friendly. I think the problem will get better when some camera maker creates a totally integrated suite that just works - like the Mac improved the user experience of PC users.
Edmund
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I am the only one at ICC meetings who agrees with himself that there is a problem getting good color from RAW files.
Who are you agreeing with?
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I am the only one at ICC meetings who agrees with himself...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is always refreshing to see such honesty!
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Who are you agreeing with?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206363\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At least I'm conscious of some of my failings
If photographers were more vocal abut interoperable color things might improve - after all it was easy to get Fuji color from a Nikon camera by dropping in a 35mm canister, but it's real hard to force Lightroom to mimic a Fuji Jpeg rendering.
Edmund
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Here's an interesting link (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0807/08070301pixeldensity.asp) to a notion called "pixel density". I know it's geared to DSLR, but perhaps it will catch on in the MFDB industry as well. Kind of like when LCD monitors started publishing brightness measurements in terms of (cd/m2).
Maybe pixel density has been out there and I've missed it, but it seems like its a good relative number.
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I just learned that Hasselblad announced this new back the same day that Kodak made developer kits available to the back manufacturers. It seems fair to conclude that Hasselblad announced this new back before they had even tested this new sensor. If so, the 50MP back could not have existed at that time, even in prototype form. Let's see how much noise they make about being "first to introduce a 50MP back".
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I just learned that Hasselblad announced this new back the same day that Kodak made developer kits available to the back manufacturers. It seems fair to conclude that Hasselblad announced this new back before they had even tested this new sensor. If so, the 50MP back could not have existed at that time, even in prototype form. Let's see how much noise they make about being "first to introduce a 50MP back".
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206412\")
In all fairness, Hasselblad probably had pre-release units to test with its electronics or the published specs were within tolerance of prior chips - either way, the marketing benefit from an early announcement of such a camera, to be available in just under a year, is marketing genius.
It generates interest, builds brand name recognition as a forerunner and clarifies the distance between itself and the competition. People who previously doubted a purchase of a Hasselblad product now could feel much more comfortable with the notion/concept that Hasselblad is on the forefront of technology.
Bottom-line: It’s all about marketing and perception. No one will tell your story better than you, and in this case, Hasselblad tells a great story about a great future camera (other examples include: first full frame MF, the space camera, etc…). Just look at these great photographers that Hasselblad uses to promote their brand:
[a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase.aspx]http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase.aspx[/url]
Kodak creates a new sensor, these photographers created a brand and name for themselves -- Hasselblad is piggy-backing for the ride.
To me, this is sheer brilliance and something to be studied, admired and emulated in our own business endeavors.
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To me, this is sheer brilliance and something to be studied, admired and emulated in our own business endeavors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear customer,
I will learn to make excellent images for you next year.
Best regards,
Your photographer (who was the first to announce his new skills)
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Dear customer,
I will learn to make excellent images for you next year.
Best regards,
Your photographer (who was the first to announce his new skills)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206421\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
LOL - I was being both serious and sarcastic at the same time - but you got the point indeed. This is all this is guys.
With regards to the T/S - already called my dealer, he didn't know, but I am interested.
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LOL
Thierry
Dear customer,
I will learn to make excellent images for you next year.
Best regards,
Your photographer (who was the first to announce his new skills)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206421\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It is funny indeed.
The brilliant part is in when you can get that customer to pay you upfront and have him come back for more every time.
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Some preliminary technical details of the new 50MP KAF-50100 sensor are now available at
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...138/13219/13220 (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/KAF-50100/specs.jhtml?pq-path=11937/11938/12138/13219/13220)
For comparison the 39MP KAF-39000 details are at
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...138/12249/12161 (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/KAF-39000/specs.jhtml?pq-path=11937/11938/12138/12249/12161)
The biggest progress for IQ is probably reducing read noise from 16e- to 12.5e-, just enough to hold the line on per pixel S/N ratio and D/R, since well capacity is reduced in the same proportion. (That should reduce visible noise and improve dynamic range on a "per image" basis, comparing at equal image size and viewing distance.)
Also, the 22MP KAF-22000 is now on the discontinued list (indeed all the color Full Frame CCDs with 9 micron pixel size are now discontinued) so the 22MP backs are going away.
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In all fairness, Hasselblad probably had pre-release units to test with its electronics or the published specs were within tolerance of prior chips - either way, the marketing benefit from an early announcement of such a camera, to be available in just under a year, is marketing genius.
It generates interest, builds brand name recognition as a forerunner and clarifies the distance between itself and the competition. People who previously doubted a purchase of a Hasselblad product now could feel much more comfortable with the notion/concept that Hasselblad is on the forefront of technology.
Bottom-line: It’s all about marketing and perception. No one will tell your story better than you, and in this case, Hasselblad tells a great story about a great future camera (other examples include: first full frame MF, the space camera, etc…). Just look at these great photographers that Hasselblad uses to promote their brand:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase.aspx)
Kodak creates a new sensor, these photographers created a brand and name for themselves -- Hasselblad is piggy-backing for the ride.
To me, this is sheer brilliance and something to be studied, admired and emulated in our own business endeavors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Without doubt, Hasselblad has upped their marketing to probably the best of any professional camera.
Is it a better product . . . who knows, but if your shooting with a Canon 1ds3 Hasselblad's marketing makes them llook like a superior product.
Hasselblad has learned to emulate Apple in the look of their materials and probably has the best mix of telling the user's story by balancing their sale message of anyone.
They have also learned to keep their message simple but on point.
Though keep in mind in the era of blogs and forums real world use gets reported quickly, so whatever is promised today, better be delivered tomorrow.
I have to admit though, that when I look at Canon, Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf, Sinar and Nikon, other than pixel count (and in Nikon's case finally a FF sensor), there is not much of a difference today than there was 3 years ago as the products all work in essentially the same manner with very close to the same results.
There is still nobody that has plug and play wireless, there is still no way to tether professionally without hardwired to a computer and other than some smoothing at higher iso, there is nothing really that different about the iso qualities of most of the products (except the Nikon).
Maybe pixel count matters, heck if you read the Hasselblad site you'd think that is all that matters, but other than that professional digital seems to move at a very slow pace.
Actually the one change I've seen in 3 years is computer speed, but that is pretty held even as file size goes up, so we really aren't that far from where we started.
JR
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It is funny indeed.
The brilliant part is in when you can get that customer to pay you upfront and have him come back for more every time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And not too far from the truth since the techniques and hopefully the vision also are ever evolving.
Cheers,
J
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ya, I'm on board for a T/S adapter - I'm selling of some soon to be redundant gear...T/S adapter is best news I've heard on this system in a while...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206352\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd hold off selling gear to fund a T/S adapter until there are physical samples doing the rounds and you can absolutely confirm that it meets your needs.
I sometimes use my Phase One P45+ on a Hasselblad Flexbody. The Flexbody is a terrific device that I very much value, but it can't fully replace my Linhof M679cs ,at least not for my needs,
-the widest lens the Flexbody takes is 40mm, and for a lot of architectural work that's just not wide enough. On this new T/S adapter the widest lens will be 45mm.
-I've used the old Hasselblad x1.4 Mutar and there's no doubt that quality was compromised, not by much it's true, but anyone who uses digital medium format is likely to be pretty picky when it comes to IQ!
-the Flexbody has no side shifts or tilts in combination with vertical shifts or tilts, it looks like the new T/S adapter is similarly restricted.
-the Flexbody has a useful but limited shift range, furthermore that range (and the resulting quality) varies by lens. I suspect it'll be the same with the new T/S adapter.
-the Flexbody introduces colour shifts. True, so does the Linhof, and there's ways of dealing with the problem, but I thought I'd flag that as it can dramatically slow tilt/shift capture rates with digital as compared with film.
-I see that the new T?S adapter isn't approved for lenses longer than 80mm. I've used lenses up to 350mm on the Flexbody and even when the tripod is mounted under the lens rather than the body there's some lack of rigidity that's noticeable at 180mm and problematic at 250mm or above.
Just my experiences, your mileage may of course be different
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Without doubt, Hasselblad has upped their marketing to probably the best of any professional camera.
Is it a better product . . . who knows, but if your shooting with a Canon 1ds3 Hasselblad's marketing makes them llook like a superior product.
Hasselblad has learned to emulate Apple in the look of their materials and probably has the best mix of telling the user's story by balancing their sale message of anyone.
They have also learned to keep their message simple but on point.
Though keep in mind in the era of blogs and forums real world use gets reported quickly, so whatever is promised today, better be delivered tomorrow.
I have to admit though, that when I look at Canon, Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf, Sinar and Nikon, other than pixel count (and in Nikon's case finally a FF sensor), there is not much of a difference today than there was 3 years ago as the products all work in essentially the same manner with very close to the same results.
There is still nobody that has plug and play wireless, there is still no way to tether professionally without hardwired to a computer and other than some smoothing at higher iso, there is nothing really that different about the iso qualities of most of the products (except the Nikon).
Maybe pixel count matters, heck if you read the Hasselblad site you'd think that is all that matters, but other than that professional digital seems to move at a very slow pace.
Actually the one change I've seen in 3 years is computer speed, but that is pretty held even as file size goes up, so we really aren't that far from where we started.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206429\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think people's memories are short term; plus I don't see much negative real world reporting here about H3DII31/39, unless I have missed it. There was a few short reviews by guys that borrowed one, but that's not real world to me, sorry.
I just don't think people will remember in 6 months that Hasselblad promised a 50mp sensor six months early; too much information now a days, at least for me.
I don't think pixel counting matters anywhere other than in marketing and in a sales pitch.
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I just don't think people will remember in 6 months that Hasselblad promised a 50mp sensor six months early; too much information now a days, at least for me.
I don't think pixel counting matters anywhere other than in marketing and in a sales pitch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Anyone happen to remember the time lag between the announcement of the Hy6 by Sinar at Photokina 2006(Sept. 06)and when they actually started shipping units in volume to actual customers?
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Anyone happen to remember the time lag between the announcement of the Hy6 by Sinar at Photokina 2006(Sept. 06)and when they actually started shipping units in volume to actual customers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Now I do!
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...........I don't think pixel counting matters anywhere other than in marketing and in a sales pitch.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In the latest issue of Hasselblad's "Victor" magazine, they are looking for 2009 Master's of Photography. That is open to ALL photographers of Medium & large format cameras, since it will be judged by a panel, including several major photographers, so it seems unbiased. THIS IS a great marketing strategy, IMHO. So gladiators/ditractors do enter the arena, all ten winners get to use H3DII/39 with any lens for 4months for free.
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"all the color Full Frame CCDs with 9 micron pixel size are now discontinued... so the 22MP backs are going away"
really ???
It is/was a very good chip with beautifull big pixels (for beauty, portrait & fashion works)...
So, it seems to be the end for the Leaf AFi5, Sinar e-54 and others 22mp back ?
And the big chip entry level will become the 33/39MP !?
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Saw this posted at another site:
"Just recieved a mail from Hasselblad:
"(...)Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."
Odd...Is Kodak releasing another commercial sensor, other than the 50MP?
Steve
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"all the color Full Frame CCDs with 9 micron pixel size are now discontinued... so the 22MP backs are going away"
It is/was a very good chip with beautifull big pixels (for beauty, portrait & fashion works)...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't panic.
For one thing, Dalsa still offers its 22MP sensor, used by some of those backs.
More importantly, the is no evidence or valid theory that using somewhat more somewhat smaller pixels on the same sensor size has any significant disadvantage in visible noise levels or DR, once one allows for options like downsampling or other NR processing from higher pixel count raw files. Especially when technological progress has improved the per pixel read noise levels in the newer higher res. sensors, as is the case with recent Kodak sensors: 22e- RMS in the 22MP, 16e- in the 39MP, 12.5e- in the 50MP.
Have you (or anyone here) compared the results given by downsampling output of 39MP backs to 22MP to what you get from a 22MP back? My prediction is that the downsampled output will probably have better DR and less noise, and will certainly have more resolution.
More DR and less noise because the improved technology of the 39MP sensor gives its pixels about the same DR as the 22MP sensor (through lower read noise and deeper wells), and then the downsampling improves the S/N ratio by averaging noise levels down to a lower level, and thus improves DR.
More resolution roughly because the downsampled output contains 22 million full RGB pixels with 22 million each of red, green and blue values, more than what the 39MP file has to start with (about 20 million green, 10 million each of red and blue) and so is capable of retaining more resolution from the original 39MP file than what what the 22MP sensor gives (11 million green values, 5.5 million each of red and blue.)
In practice, in every comparison I have seen of output from a lower pixel count sensor to output from a higher pixel count sensor downsampled to that lower pixel count, the downsampled image has more resolution.
In fact, you might get about equal resolution by downsampling from 39MP all the way to 11MP, which still retains as many green pixel values and twice and many red and blue pixel values as the 22MP sensor gives.
Has any compared the resolution in conversions from Bayer CFA raw files to RGB formats (like TIFF) at various pixel counts? I would like to see ow close my guess is, that once the RGB output has half as many pixels as the raw, there is little or not gain with higher output pixel counts. Though higher pixel count output can have other virtues, like avoiding jaggies.
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see my post...
p
Saw this posted at another site:
"Just recieved a mail from Hasselblad:
"(...)Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."
Odd...Is Kodak releasing another commercial sensor, other than the 50MP?
Steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Except that we did clearly say that the product would be finished only in 2007, with the first demo units ready for delivery in Q2, for our distributors. Which proved to be wrong and later, admitted.
Thierry
Anyone happen to remember the time lag between the announcement of the Hy6 by Sinar at Photokina 2006(Sept. 06)and when they actually started shipping units in volume to actual customers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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In the latest issue of Hasselblad's "Victor" magazine, they are looking for 2009 Master's of Photography. That is open to ALL photographers of Medium & large format cameras, since it will be judged by a panel, including several major photographers, so it seems unbiased. THIS IS a great marketing strategy, IMHO. So gladiators/ditractors do enter the arena, all ten winners get to use H3DII/39 with any lens for 4months for free.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you telling me that you receive a printed version of Victor? Say it isn't so!
They probably canceled my subscription.
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Are you telling me that you receive a printed version of Victor? Say it isn't so!
They probably canceled my subscription.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I received 2/2008 issue & I believe it is the current one, as Hasselblad's old magazine "Forum" & now the new one "Victor" do get published in arrear of the date. Thus 2/2008 means it will out at the end of second quarter of 08. Though they do ship it via UPS, only magazine that comes via UPS.
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Saw this posted at another site:
"Just recieved a mail from Hasselblad:
"(...)Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."
Odd...Is Kodak releasing another commercial sensor, other than the 50MP?
Steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, it seems like it will be a new sensor, over & above 50MP. On a second thought it may not larger than 50MP, but larger pixels,The full e-mail is thus;
"Hasselblad announces new camera and sensor technology.
Introducing the new H3DII-50, our new H System flagship, featuring the new Kodak 50 Mpixel sensor, measuring 36×48mm, twice the physical size of the largest 35mm DSLR sensors. The H3DII-50 is designed to meet the exacting demands of high-end commercial photographers who require the ultimate in both image quality and performance. The H3DII-50 will be available for delivery in October. Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."
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Yes, it seems like it will be a new sensor, over & above 50MP. The full e-mail is thus;
"Hasselblad announces new camera and sensor technology.
Introducing the new H3DII-50, our new H System flagship, featuring the new Kodak 50 Mpixel sensor, measuring 36×48mm, twice the physical size of the largest 35mm DSLR sensors. The H3DII-50 is designed to meet the exacting demands of high-end commercial photographers who require the ultimate in both image quality and performance. The H3DII-50 will be available for delivery in October. Hasselblad is also proud to announce the upcoming launch of a new 645 sensor. Full details on the 645 sensor can be had at Hasselblad's Future Technology seminar at Photokina 2008 in Cologne."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you may be reading the words too literally, Sean. There MAY be another new sensor that will be announced at Photokina, but it would appear that it will be less than 50MP. Hasselblad would not be positioning the H3D50-II as its new "flagship" if it were announcing a bigger chip.
BTW, the same e-mail states that the new H3D50 will be ready to ship in October. I thought I had read Q1 2009.
The Hasselblad press release is clearer than the e-mail we received. It does appear that there will be an announcement of a full sized 645 sensor, but, to me, it does not square with the H3D50 being Hasselblad's flagship DSLR. We will have to await further info. Perhaps Nick T can get to the bottom of it.
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Then what does this mean?
From Hassy press release:
"An impressive 83 line-pairs/millimeter are resolved over the full, large area of
both today’s 36x48 millimeter sensor and of the upcoming larger 645 sensor."
No mention of megapixels in that sentence, just sensor size.
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More importantly, the is no evidence or valid theory that using somewhat more somewhat smaller pixels on the same sensor size has any significant disadvantage in visible noise levels or DR, once one allows for options like downsampling or other NR processing from higher pixel count raw files.
Actually, DR will not improve, no matter how many pixels you bin. Noise performance will though.
Using the same technology, a 22MP chip will always have better performance, per pixel. I'm hoping the old 22MP chip is being replaced by another sensor of similar resolution but using the newest technology to improve noise and speed. I hope Dalsa has some surprises for us too.
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Actually, DR will not improve, no matter how many pixels you bin. Noise performance will though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206601\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I disagree: on-sensor binning or digital domain downsampling lowers the RMS noise level in the output pixels while not changing the maximum signal level, and that increases dynamic range, which is the ratio of those two values. In practical terms, less shadow noise with the same highlight handling is more DR.
In the simple illustrative case of 2x2 on-sensor binning on a monochrome sensor, the signal from each 2x2 bin is what you would have got with one bigger photosite in its place, including the higher DR expected from tat four times larger photosite area.
I remind you that film uses "one-bit photosites" (silver halide crystals) with only two output states (exposed or not exposed) so that all the DR of film comes from "dithering" or "visual averaging" when each rod or cone in the viewer's eye sees the combined "output" of a large number of such photosites. The often claimed finer tonal gradations of prints from larger film formats are a manifestation of the higher "print DR" achieved by getting the same sized print with a lower degree of enlargement, and thus dithering more the "raw chemical photosite data" of the negative.
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I disagree: on-sensor binning or digital domain downsampling lowers the RMS noise level in the output pixels while not changing the maximum signal level, and that increases dynamic range,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK we are talking at slight cross-purposes. I was isolating DR. If there is no noise, DR can't be improved with pixel binning. You are right that if there is noise, binning will slightly improve DR, but the extent depends on the nature of the noise.
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I'm hoping the old 22MP chip is being replaced by another sensor of similar resolution but using the newest technology to improve noise and speed.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206601\")
Please face the facts. Kodak is phasing out its 9 micron sensor technology except for special applications like X-rays, and its direction is more sensors using its new [a href=\"http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/News/pressReleases/archive/2008/pr6.jhtml?pq-path=12991/13227]TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Technology Platform[/url].
(Edit: Could this include the rumored larger sensor with those 6 micron pixels, along with a 40MP one at 44x33mm?)
P.S. Though a great many of us feel no need for 50MP (I am happy with about 10MP or even less, after cropping!), how do experienced users of film in 6x7 and larger format film feel that 39MP sensors compare for final image resolution? Was there any point to all those whose used low speed, low DR, high res. transparency films like Velvia in those large formats?
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... binning will slightly improve DR, but the extent depends on the nature of the noise.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed. With shadow noise from sources that scale up as photosite size increases like dark current, downsampling can help. On the other hand, with noise that is more or less fixed per pixel, such as pre-amp noise might be, down-sampling might not improve DR.
Comparing Kodak FF CCD sensors of different pixel sizes, even ones of the same generation, RMS read noise in e- increases with pixel size with a trend fairly close to square root of pixel area (linear in pixel width). Some examples are
21e- @ 9 microns, ratio 2.33 for the 22MP sensor
17e- @ 6.8 microns, ratio 2.5 for the Olympus E-1 sensor
16e- @ 6.8 microns, ratio 2.35 for the 31MP and 39MP sensors and the "Leica" 10MP sensor
15e- @ 6.8 microns, ratio 2.2 for the 10MP "Leica" sensor
12.5e- @ 6 microns, ratio 2.08 for the 50MP sensor
(Note: these figures might be pessimistic, in that they are at maximum operating temperature, and dark current is lower at lower temperatures.)
If it were exactly a square root trend (equal ratios above) and noise at adjacent sites is uncorrelated, then downsampling from smaller photosites would exactly reproduce the read noise from larger photosites. The shift for 6.8 microns from 17 to 16 to 15 measures technological progress: not much it seems; most per pixel noise reduction is from pixel downsizing.
Maybe the relatively high read noise of FF CCD sensors makes downsampling particularly useful for reducing the noise floor and increasing DR. CMOS sensors might have quite different trends, as the main noise sources seems instead to be the on-pixel processing (charge to voltage conversion and amplification), and/or the on-chip A/D convertors.
By the way, dark current might be relatively bad partly because the signal sits in the photosites for about 1 second in the MF sensors, and dark current accumulates the whole time, not just while the shutter is open. Maybe faster read-out with more parallel read channels can help; the 50MP sensor makes a small move in this direction with its shift from two to four channels, which allows a lower data rate per channel and thus less "1/f" read noise.
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Actually, my last post is a bit confusing, being focussed on comparing different sensors. It buries this basic fact:
Downsampling from samples with uncorrelated noise will improve the DR, in proportion to the square root of the downsampling factor, N.
This is because when N samples are added, the summed signal is larger in proportion to the number of samples, but the level of uncorrelated noise combines in root-mean-square fashion, and so increases only in proportion to square root of of the number of samples combined, sqrt(N).
When the result is rescaled to the same maximum signal strength (divide signal sums by N, also reducing RMS noise by factor N) the RMS noise level is smaller than before downsampling by a factor sqrt(N).
Dynamic range is the ratio of maximum signal to RMS noise level, and this ratio is increased by factor sqrt(N).
For this, the nature of the noise does not matter, except being uncorrelated or close enough.
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Please face the facts. Kodak is phasing out its 9 micron sensor technology except for special applications like X-rays, and its direction is more sensors using its new
TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Technology Platform (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/News/pressReleases/archive/2008/pr6.jhtml?pq-path=12991/13227).
P.S. Though a great many of us feel no need for 50MP (I am happy with about 10MP or even less, after cropping!), how do experienced users of film in 6x7 and larger format film feel that 39MP sensors compare for final image resolution? Was there any point to all those whose used low speed, low DR, high res. transparency films like Velvia in those large formats?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206658\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know I've shot about every film made in about every format and except on rare instances a film was selected more for the look than the actual ability to render detail.
I think the look of photography is changing and uber sharp amazing detail is kind of strange looking for a lot of photography, especially people. It seems the sharper and more detailed we get the more video looking the images get.
There is obviously going to be talk about who needs 50mpx and if the new 50mpx backs only gives more detail then I don't see the point. If it really does remove moire, have better color as advertised then it might have some use.
From a marketing standpoint 50mpx makes great sense because the back makers can say it's more than twice the camera of a Canon or the upcoming Nikon.
For some situations it will be better but for nearly all situations the 50mpx camera will not be twice the camera, regardless of the marketing spin.
Not that there is anything wrong with marketing or selling new product. I sell, everyone sells, but in this instance 50mpx vs. 39 or even 31 is more spin than substance, unless the 50mpx back really does something different than what we have today.
A better look, better previews, easier to manage post production, something that is different than where we are at the moment will get more professionals attention than just more megas something.
I will admit that of the 4 back makers Hasselblad is right now at the top of their game at selling and marketing their product, especially in making good use of the Hasselblad name and heritage.
It doesn't exactly translate to the modern era, but most people won't or dont know that, any more than they care if a chevrolet is made in Australia, Michigan, or Poland.
In fact I was very surprised that Sinar and Leaf did not brand the HY6 a Rolleiflex rather than Sinar and Leaf. Not that there is anything wrong with those names, but a Rollei carries more weight at the country club than HY6 or AFI.
Though those perceptions can change and change quickly. Look at the Red digital cinema camera and to take those lessons to the HY6 and the Phase cameras If they really do offer a better system than the blad with more options, more lenses, a better price, AND market it correctly then the standards of the industry will change quickly.
Michael wrote that there is reluctance on forums for people to accept 50mpx for a varity of reasons.
I agree with some of his assement, but on the whole I think it's easy to grow weary of a lot of digital updates because putting resource to just more megapixels can get in the way of making photographs and doing business.
In fact what would move me to purchase is not megapixels but better systems to make my photographs and my way of doing business easier and faster. The problem with that is it's much easier to soundbite 50mpx than to mention workflow or lens systems.
Once again, to compare all of this to the Red, there is real substance to a product that wasn't offered before regardless of the price, the name, the heritage or the time in market. If you offer a product that an artist simply can't do without, then that is the product that will be purchased.
JR
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...The problem with that is it's much easier to soundbite 50mpx than to mention workflow or lens systems.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What most of you don't realize is that Hasselblad's biggest competitor is Canon, not Phase or Leaf or Sinar. I can't take credit for saying this either, it was told to me by either someone at Hasselblad or my dealer or Steve at PR -- just can't remember which now.
Hasselblad is losing business left and right to people who find a 21mp Canon good enough and affordable.
Claiming a 50mp back is pure marketing, as I've said. Soundbite 100%!
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What most of you don't realize is that Hasselblad's biggest competitor is Canon, not Phase or Leaf or Sinar. I can't take credit for saying this either, it was told to me by either someone at Hasselblad or my dealer or Steve at PR -- just can't remember which now.
Hasselblad is losing business left and right to people who find a 21mp Canon good enough and affordable.
Claiming a 50mp back is pure marketing, as I've said. Soundbite 100%!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206678\")
It's easy for all of us (myself included) to make broad black and white statements but in reality photography in the digtial era has changed.
I don't believe everyone that uses a Canon does so because it is just good enough, but I do know that for a huge volume of photographers price is a big part of the equation.
The price of moving to medium format over the dlsrs doesn't stop at twice or three times for the body, it continues on through the lens line, the accessoires, the computer power needed, drive space and the simple convenience of higher iso, better previews, more detailed lcds.
For a long time medium format has lived off the statement that their cameras and backs produce superior images and in most "controlled" instances they do produce a better image next to a dslr.
Still, for medium format to command a much higher price they really need to offer twice the lcd, twice the previews, twice the software, twice the file compatibility and more moveable iso.
Once again, compared to the Red it just doesn't hold water that most medium format lcd's are so diffiuclt to read. It pretty much blows the theory that it's not possible to find detailed lcd's in small quantaties.
This is just $2,500
[a href=\"http://www.red.com/image/path/normal/302002.png?1208187356]http://www.red.com/image/path/normal/302002.png?1208187356[/url]
I'd glady pay $2,500 for this detailed a preview device, much more if it was wirless.
JR
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Is it just me, or do I smell a hint of the dinosaur here?
These prices just seem out of kilter and uncompetititve given "35mm" dslr's will soon offer (Sony and Nikon) near 25mp resolution, much greater versatility, and 14bit low-noise (I assume) capture for a fraction of the price.
I accept even 22mp medium format should better the Canon, Nikon and Sony offerings at low ISO, but somehow the move to 50mp leaves me underwhelmed. Its still fundamentally reheated old film technology. For a real difference, a 6x7 chip with 100mp would be nice.
Quentin
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I don't get it - they built a sensor that is going to be diffraction limited at f/8, that has less DR than its predecessors, and isn't significantly faster in frame rate. Why? Where do the Kodak product managers and engineers get their input from? If you buy this and shoot at f/16 then you paid too much because you won't be getting 50mp worth of detail.
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I don't get it - they built a sensor that is going to be diffraction limited at f/8, that has less DR than its predecessors, and isn't significantly faster in frame rate. Why? Where do the Kodak product managers and engineers get their input from?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wonder the same thing.
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who cares?? - from the sound of it NO ONE is going to buy one from this forum anyhow...
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If you make two 40x50" prints, one from 22MP and one from 50MP, same physical sensor size, both shot at f/16, I believe there will be no visible difference in diffraction in the prints.
Depending on who's looking, viewers may notice a difference in tonality & detail however.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I guess we will find out - however the p25 is going to have more DR so it will be the one with better tonality. If the new red filters over the red sensor wells does give better color then maybe the 50mp new sensor will have an edge there?
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If you make two 40x50" prints, one from 22MP and one from 50MP, same physical sensor size, both shot at f/16, I believe there will be no visible difference in diffraction in the prints.
Depending on who's looking, viewers may notice a difference in tonality & detail however.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does anybody here really think there is a difference in detail between 39 and 50 MP ? Was there a difference between 30 (Dalsa) and 39 (Kodak) ?
On the other hand, 1s/image, now that is useful ...
Edmund
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If you make two 40x50" prints, one from 22MP and one from 50MP, same physical sensor size, both shot at f/16, I believe there will be no visible difference in diffraction in the prints.
Depending on who's looking, viewers may notice a difference in tonality & detail however.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I bet those that notice the difference are the ones that have just bought the new 50mp back/camera.
Man this is all getting so crazy. New sensors each year and they still can't put a really good screen on these thirty grand instruments ! I was going to get a MFDB, but all this craziness has put me off. I'll stick to my D3 and maybe D3x now, and I'll bet I'm not the only one to do so. At least Nikon listens to what their customers want...
Cheers,
Pete
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What most of you don't realize is that Hasselblad's biggest competitor is Canon, not Phase or Leaf or Sinar. I can't take credit for saying this either, it was told to me by either someone at Hasselblad or my dealer or Steve at PR -- just can't remember which now.
Hasselblad is losing business left and right to people who find a 21mp Canon good enough and affordable.
Claiming a 50mp back is pure marketing, as I've said. Soundbite 100%!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
We met last year at this time with two people from Hasselblad & they said the same thing about Canon. They also mentioned that Canon in Australia had a very large market penetration compared to the rest of the world. We both still feel that 35D & MFD have a place in our work.
When it comes to marketing when Canon announces a camera or product it is ready for release. This new 50 mp camera will be ready in the first Q of 2009, that is 6-9 months away.
Denis
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Hi
We met last year at this time with two people from Hasselblad & they said the same thing about Canon. They also mentioned that Canon in Australia had a very large market penetration compared to the rest of the world. We both still feel that 35D & MFD have a place in our work.
When it comes to marketing when Canon announces a camera or product it is ready for release. This new 50 mp camera will be ready in the first Q of 2009, that is 6-9 months away.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've heard Hasselblad say this also, and though I know they "want" part of Canon's market share, I don't believe for a moment that medium format doesn't spend a whole lot of time looking at thier medium format competitors first.
I am relatively sure that's why this annoucement is rushed out before photokina ahead of Phase, becuase I think we all can assume that Phase will probably match what blad does, given that they use the same sensors.
If anyone on medium format want's to match or exceed Canon one on one, it's going to take more than just upping the megapixels.
In fact I will give you an exact example of this. I just finsihed a conference call on a new fashion introduction. We will shoot a studio look and an envrionmental lifestyle look, going from window light to lit studio all within the same time frame, models, product.
Now for a lot of this medium format will be the choice, but and this is a big issue, for a lot of this shooting it with a 1ds3 will be faster, easier and at the end of the day probably get a better result, just because when the light falls through the windows, I can go to 800 iso clean on a Canon, medium format gets challanged. For those moments I have to pull away from the computer, I can review the images on a detailed lcd and know if I exactly have the shot, on medium format I must stay tethered to get a proper view.
For this shoot, they want images sent out to marketers virtually as we shoot. For the Canon the jpegs are more than detailed and close enough for review, for medium format we have to start processing.
Now as I mentioned I will shot a lot of this medium format, because I choose to, but if I wanted I could shoot both sessions, studio and lifestyle with a 1ds3 and I know that the client's would not have an issue.
This doesn't reflect what most still life photographers or landscape photographers need or want and in that case a 50mpx back might be the right option, but the annoucement I would have loved to see is the one that addressed iso, previews, speed, faster lenses, file compatibility and processing speed.
JR
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I bet those that notice the difference are the ones that have just bought the new 50mp back/camera.
Man this is all getting so crazy. New sensors each year and they still can't put a really good screen on these thirty grand instruments ! I was going to get a MFDB, but all this craziness has put me off. I'll stick to my D3 and maybe D3x now, and I'll bet I'm not the only one to do so. At least Nikon listens to what their customers want...
Cheers,
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hope no manufacturer acts like Nikon! If Nikon listened to what customers, and more to the point, what I was telling NPS in 2005, which was get a full frame sensor that doesn't suck into an F5 body, I wouldn't have started shooting MFDB and a 1ds, 1ds2, and 5D. Really. It took Nikon how long to give me a camera as good as the F5? I'll probably get the D3X when it comes out, but really.
As to telling the difference, who knows. As far as I know, no one here has seen a file from this chip, so who's to tell. Maybe 50 megapix is useful to someone (not me), but whatevs.
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I do to believe Hasselblad's ahead with the 50mp back is more of a promotional and PR trick, even out of little fear too. If Hass got them, Sinar and Phase will get them too.
If this new larger 645 sensor is true, in a way or two, it will put hasselblad in a discomfort zone. How will they market their flagship already full frame camera fit with a bigger sensor?
A real FF 645 sensor will make the Hy6/Afi with revolving backs truly shine. This sensor will catapult the Hy6/Afi to to state that Hasselblad enjoyed in the golden years of the V system, which they stupidly neglected.
I too believe that Hasselblad's main competitor is been Canon, and now Nikon too. Look at myself: I'm a pro who always prefered to use MF for its quality. Digital mf came with horrendous prices. So pros like me, went digital and embraced tightly to full frame 35. Digital MF is full of issues. Prices still in orbit. So pros lile me have been collecting expensive glass for our Canon and Nikons to get the best quality of our cameras. Thing is, the more expensive the glass we get, the farhter we are to save money to jump to digital medium format. An this is a repetitive cycle.
My 2 centavos
Eduardo
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I hope no manufacturer acts like Nikon! If Nikon listened to what customers, and more to the point, what I was telling NPS in 2005, which was get a full frame sensor that doesn't suck into an F5 body, I wouldn't have started shooting MFDB and a 1ds, 1ds2, and 5D. Really. It took Nikon how long to give me a camera as good as the F5? I'll probably get the D3X when it comes out, but really.
As to telling the difference, who knows. As far as I know, no one here has seen a file from this chip, so who's to tell. Maybe 50 megapix is useful to someone (not me), but whatevs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well you're right, Nikon did take a long time to listen, that I can't deny. But eventually the penny did drop with them, and they are listening now. How many more times does everybody have to ask for better screens on the MFDB's before it's done. Forget about the pixel race, just improve the product as James has repeatedly said.
If they did that as well as making them cheaper then more photographers would make the switch. The MFDB makers need to win over more 35mm shooters and they're going the wrong way about it. It's survival time for them especially with Photokina approaching and all the new DSLR cameras about to hit the market.
Cheers
Pete
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I do to believe Hasselblad's ahead with the 50mp back is more of a promotional and PR trick, even out of little fear too. If Hass got them, Sinar and Phase will get them too.
If this new larger 645 sensor is true, in a way or two, it will put hasselblad in a discomfort zone. How will they market their flagship already full frame camera fit with a bigger sensor?
A real FF 645 sensor will make the Hy6/Afi with revolving backs truly shine. This sensor will catapult the Hy6/Afi to to state that Hasselblad enjoyed in the golden years of the V system, which they stupidly neglected.
My 2 centavos
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In the grand scheme of things, how Hasselblad is going to spin its adoption of a new true full frame 645 chip into an H4D when it has been hyping its H3D as a full frame DSLR is the least of Hasselblad's issues. The real issues are (1) price and (2) enhancements in image quality. If the new 645 chip requires Hasselblad to sell the camera alone for $50K when the H3D39 is $30K, this all becomes an exercise in futility. Even if the price is constrained, if there are no demonsratable enhancements in IQ, it's still seems a marginal proposition at best.
BTW, why is the Hy6 better equipped to accomadate a true 645 chip that the H series?
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I am also thinking about this. The HDMI output looks great, in studio a big 48' plasma or lcd should be much more attractive to the clients. A 24mp FF sensor should fulfill all the editorial needs and most of advertisement needs. Not mention great high iso performance and speed, and most important, the cost. Maybe rent a DB when I really need one is somehow a good choise.
Dustblue
I bet those that notice the difference are the ones that have just bought the new 50mp back/camera.
Man this is all getting so crazy. New sensors each year and they still can't put a really good screen on these thirty grand instruments ! I was going to get a MFDB, but all this craziness has put me off. I'll stick to my D3 and maybe D3x now, and I'll bet I'm not the only one to do so. At least Nikon listens to what their customers want...
Cheers,
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I should also add, that since the 50mp version isn't slated for release until 2009 Q1
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206309\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the marketing benefit from an early announcement of such a camera, to be available in just under a year, is marketing genius.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear customer,
I will learn to make excellent images for you next year.
Best regards,
Your photographer (who was the first to announce his new skills)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206421\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just don't think people will remember in 6 months that Hasselblad promised a 50mp sensor six months early
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This new 50 mp camera will be ready in the first Q of 2009, that is 6-9 months away.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
One of the interesting things about the internet is the echo chamber effect. Once misinformation is posted, it gets repeated until people believe that it's true!
For the record...
The H3DII-50 is scheduled for delivery in October 2008. This is in line with Kodak's announced delivery schedule for the new sensor.
The new HTS tilt/shift adapter is scheduled for delivery in Q1 of 2009. By the way, yes this does function with all H-series cameras as a mechanical/optical device. Users of Hasselblad CF product (H2/H2F/CF/CFH/H2D/H3D/H3DII) will have the added benefit of the electronic sensors that provide feedback on tilt/shift settings for automatic DAC lens corrections of distortion, vignetting & chromatic aberration specific to the lens position. Also, the rotation is continuously variable for combined tilt/swing like the Sinar ArTec.
The 645 sensor is scheduled for delivery sometime in 2009. More information will be provided at Photokina.
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One of the interesting things about the internet is the echo chamber effect. Once misinformation is posted, it gets repeated until people believe that it's true!
For the record...
The H3DII-50 is scheduled for delivery in October 2008. This is in line with Kodak's announced delivery schedule for the new sensor.
The new HTS tilt/shift adapter is scheduled for delivery in Q1 of 2009. By the way, yes this does function with all H-series cameras as a mechanical/optical device. Users of Hasselblad CF product (H2/H2F/CF/CFH/H2D/H3D/H3DII) will have the added benefit of the electronic sensors that provide feedback on tilt/shift settings for automatic DAC lens corrections of distortion, vignetting & chromatic aberration specific to the lens position. Also, the rotation is continuously variable for combined tilt/swing like the Sinar ArTec.
The 645 sensor is scheduled for delivery sometime in 2009. More information will be provided at Photokina.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
TT, do you work for hasselblad?
JR
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TT, do you work for hasselblad?
JR
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206766\")
Don't know why he is so upset, I thought the purpose of a forum was to talk back and forth. Obviously if we had to think of everything to say in one post, it would be rather silent.
For the record, MR's write up:
[a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/H3DII-50.shtml]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../H3DII-50.shtml[/url]
States "Hasselblad is indicating delivery in Q1 2009." That is where I received my information. Perhaps Michael made a simple error and will correct it.
As for Hasselblad having marketing genius, I think that is a compliment. I own Hasselblad gear, I like their equipment and I look forward to the T/S and other new items.
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From the Hasselblad's promotion page. (http://hasselblad.com/promotions/50-promotion.aspx)
"Purchase a H3DII-39 between now and September 30, 2008 and you can get a free lens of your choice, be guaranteed first access to the new H3DII-50 [span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']when it is launched in October 2008, and be able to upgrade your H3DII-39 to the new H3DII-50 at a cost equal to the difference in list price."[/b][/span]
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I think it's important to point out that Hasselblad has a healthy investment in R&D and it is one of the reasons why I selected Hasselblad when I purchased my MF gear.
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The new HTS tilt/shift adapter is scheduled for delivery in Q1 of 2009. By the way, yes this does function with all H-series cameras as a mechanical/optical device. Users of Hasselblad CF product (H2/H2F/CF/CFH/H2D/H3D/H3DII) will have the added benefit of the electronic sensors that provide feedback on tilt/shift settings for automatic DAC lens corrections of distortion, vignetting & chromatic aberration specific to the lens position. Also, the rotation is continuously variable for combined tilt/swing like the Sinar ArTec.
The 645 sensor is scheduled for delivery sometime in 2009. More information will be provided at Photokina.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
IMHO, this is what Hasselblad should have done with the HCD 28mm lens. Let everyone with an H series camera buy and use the lens, but make it clear that the performance of the lens is optimized through the use of the software based corrrections only available to those with Hasselblad backs. Then, show people with real world imagery how the lens performance degrades without the software corrections.
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Well you're right, Nikon did take a long time to listen, that I can't deny. But eventually the penny did drop with them, and they are listening now. How many more times does everybody have to ask for better screens on the MFDB's before it's done. Forget about the pixel race, just improve the product as James has repeatedly said.
If they did that as well as making them cheaper then more photographers would make the switch. The MFDB makers need to win over more 35mm shooters and they're going the wrong way about it. It's survival time for them especially with Photokina approaching and all the new DSLR cameras about to hit the market.
Cheers
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206743\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think Blad is hitting it out of the park with dslr shooters, especially those that never shot film. To them the H3D2 series is like a bigger, slower 1ds series camera, what with its single battery and big screen. The name has a heritage and history many of the dslr guys do not understand, but they know it is "the best". I hear this all the time from assistants/students and even amatures on the street. The H3D2 is an object of desire for the target market in a way that Mamiya/Rollei can never be. The t/s adapter is a fantastic option and shows that Blad isn't just a marketing machine, but is catering to the needs of real photographers.
The real challenge is not limited to Blad, but is rather aimed at the entire MFDB industry. The backs need to be cheaper and offer more features. The market for photography, for most shooters, can barely support the purchase of a 5D and a few lenses. rates are down or stagnant. Into this mix you throw in a $20k digital purchase and realize that you still need that 35mm digital to shoot certain things? If they want to sell more of these, ensuring that there is enough room for the 4 back makers, then get real and go for volume. Make the market. Then maybe we'll get screens that are usable.
And I hate to harp on about video but for $6500 and associated computers you can make more money on a day rate basis, for jobs that are easier to land, than with $25k - $40k worth of MF gear. I was about to buy a 1ds3 but decided to get a Sony EX1 instead. I like stills better than video, but from a business perspective, the investment in video is much, much smarter.
So here it is: MFDB makers, lower your prices if you want to survive. If not I think we'll only have Blad and Sinar left, Blad because their marketing is so good and Sinar because of their expertise with technical cameras. The market is only so big when its a $20k investment.
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The Hy6/Afi camera are better suited for the joy of photography (no pun intented) IMHO. This may likely be subjective, but I think the latest german glass developed for these cameras will be better than those from Fujiblad. The capability of using them at waist level, floor level, eye level, etc., will give them an edge over the H camerasi in terms of flexibility. Of course as I said, it is subjective.
The H3DII-50 camera will be available from October 2008 at a price of $39,995
Complete, I believe.
Best
Eduardo
BTW, why is the Hy6 better equipped to accomadate a true 645 chip that the H series?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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what i listened from "usually very well informed circles out of the industry " is that Hasselblad received from Kodak the developer packet for the 50mp sensor in the same week as they made the announcement. so they START at this moment to create the back around the sensor.
no idea how long takes this, but everybody can use its own fantasy.
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what i listened from "usually very well informed circles out of the industry " is that Hasselblad received from Kodak the developer packet for the 50mp sensor in the same week as they made the announcement. so they START at this moment to create the back around the sensor.
no idea how long takes this, but everybody can use its own fantasy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you sure it's the 50mpx sensor and not the overflowingly full 645? Sounds unbelievably short time to implement and test if it's meant to ship in 3 months. Anyway, this is pure speculation, someone (TT) set this straight.
Cheers,
J
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I think Blad is hitting it out of the park with dslr shooters, especially those that never shot film. To them the H3D2 series is like a bigger, slower 1ds series camera, what with its single battery and big screen. The name has a heritage and history many of the dslr guys do not understand, but they know it is "the best". I hear this all the time from assistants/students and even amatures on the street. The H3D2 is an object of desire for the target market in a way that Mamiya/Rollei can never be. The t/s adapter is a fantastic option and shows that Blad isn't just a marketing machine, but is catering to the needs of real photographers.
The real challenge is not limited to Blad, but is rather aimed at the entire MFDB industry. The backs need to be cheaper and offer more features. The market for photography, for most shooters, can barely support the purchase of a 5D and a few lenses. rates are down or stagnant. Into this mix you throw in a $20k digital purchase and realize that you still need that 35mm digital to shoot certain things? If they want to sell more of these, ensuring that there is enough room for the 4 back makers, then get real and go for volume. Make the market. Then maybe we'll get screens that are usable.
And I hate to harp on about video but for $6500 and associated computers you can make more money on a day rate basis, for jobs that are easier to land, than with $25k - $40k worth of MF gear. I was about to buy a 1ds3 but decided to get a Sony EX1 instead. I like stills better than video, but from a business perspective, the investment in video is much, much smarter.
So here it is: MFDB makers, lower your prices if you want to survive. If not I think we'll only have Blad and Sinar left, Blad because their marketing is so good and Sinar because of their expertise with technical cameras. The market is only so big when its a $20k investment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206800\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you entirely. I've used the V system for over twenty five years, absolutely wonderful cameras. Still use the original 500c I bought as a student, and I never felt the need to upgrade every year. At least when I purchased it it didn't devalue by a huge amount instantly and was superseded within a few months. I'd be well upset if I'd bought a MF digital camera for thirty grand and six months later the maker was selling it at a special promotional price at almost half the original cost, just to make way for a newer model.
With the photography business evolving at the rate it is going and a recession looming I really am bemused at the behaviour of the MFDB makers. I mean where are all the older backs, you know the Aptus 17's etc. Why aren't the manufacturers selling these off real cheap to get people hooked into the MF digital world ?
I've also bought a video camera too...
Cheers
Pete
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what i listened from "usually very well informed circles out of the industry " is that Hasselblad received from Kodak the developer packet for the 50mp sensor in the same week as they made the announcement. so they START at this moment to create the back around the sensor.
no idea how long takes this, but everybody can use its own fantasy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That means Fotokina & Photoplus will have a floor model of H3D50.
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Any new back from Sinar this year?
Henrik
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I agree with you entirely. I've used the V system for over twenty five years, absolutely wonderful cameras. Still use the original 500c I bought as a student, and I never felt the need to upgrade every year. At least when I purchased it it didn't devalue by a huge amount instantly and was superseded within a few months. I'd be well upset if I'd bought a MF digital camera for thirty grand and six months later the maker was selling it at a special promotional price at almost half the original cost, just to make way for a newer model.
With the photography business evolving at the rate it is going and a recession looming I really am bemused at the behaviour of the MFDB makers. I mean where are all the older backs, you know the Aptus 17's etc. Why aren't the manufacturers selling these off real cheap to get people hooked into the MF digital world ?
I've also bought a video camera too...
Cheers
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly! They should be expanding their market with refurb A17s, A22s, P21s and 25s, some old e-motion 22s etc. Get people hooked into a system with amazing IQ but pain in the ass/slow operation. People will upgrade for better usability features and BOOM, you have new people entering the market who will upgrade to new products down the road.
I have a P30+ but would love to have an A22 for less than $7,999, the price of a 1ds3. Then later I would get an AFi 5 for the speed, who knows. As it stands, by backup to my P30 is either a 5D or a roll of Portra 400NC.
As it is, the Leaf refurb prices, as set by Leaf and not their dealers, is about the same as a NEW P30+. Crazy, no?
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TT, do you work for hasselblad?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No. I've never worked for any manufacturer.
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I just learned that Hasselblad announced this new back the same day that Kodak made developer kits available to the back manufacturers. It seems fair to conclude that Hasselblad announced this new back before they had even tested this new sensor. If so, the 50MP back could not have existed at that time, even in prototype form. Let's see how much noise they make about being "first to introduce a 50MP back".
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=206412\")
what i listened from "usually very well informed circles out of the industry " is that Hasselblad received from Kodak the developer packet for the 50mp sensor in the same week as they made the announcement. so they START at this moment to create the back around the sensor.
no idea how long takes this, but everybody can use its own fantasy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you sure it's the 50mpx sensor and not the overflowingly full 645? Sounds unbelievably short time to implement and test if it's meant to ship in 3 months. Anyway, this is pure speculation, someone (TT) set this straight.
Cheers,
J
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is in no way unusual for a component manufacturer to provide prototype and pre-production samples of new designs to select customers for evaluation, feedback, testing and preliminary product design, in advance of offering the product to the general market. In fact, it's fairly standard operating procedure in many high-tech markets. Before announcing a product like the new Kodak sensor and starting up production, it makes sense to get feedback (and orders) from your most likely customers (like Hasselblad and Phase One) before ramping up a fabrication line.
Kodak currently has evaluation kits available to anyone wishing to buy them and is producing engineering grade 50mp sensors. Now, some may believe that Phase One and Hasselblad were kept unaware of Kodak's development work on this new sensor until a few days ago and/or were never provided early samples to evaluate. A relatively small number of people at Kodak and Hasselblad know whether or not this is the case. I have no direct knowledge, so anything I say would have to be speculation based on assumption, gossip or rumor--and it hardly "seems fair to conclude" anything based on that. I would certainly be surprised if Kodak did not supply samples to Phase One and Kodak some time ago! It would be the sensible thing for Kodak to do.
Some years ago, George Harrison was going past a small church that had a sign outside reading "Gossip... the devil's radio! Don't be a broadcaster!" He made an immediate connection with that little phrase and wrote a song based on that theme. It's a tune that I've enjoyed for years and a concept that I try to keep in mind, but fail to remember sometimes. I'm human... and people do love to gossip. Live version... [a href=\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0mGBpoFxB4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0mGBpoFxB4[/url]
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No. I've never worked for any manufacturer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then thank you for your information.
It's appreciated.
JR
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From the Hasselblad's promotion page. (http://hasselblad.com/promotions/50-promotion.aspx)
"Purchase a H3DII-39 between now and September 30, 2008 and you can get a free lens of your choice, be guaranteed first access to the new H3DII-50 [span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']when it is launched in October 2008, and be able to upgrade your H3DII-39 to the new H3DII-50 at a cost equal to the difference in list price."[/b][/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=206779\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Thank you for the info. The H3DII-50 will be available in 3 months.
Denis