Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: ARD on September 08, 2005, 07:23:51 am

Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: ARD on September 08, 2005, 07:23:51 am
The sneaky way would be to go and buy another lens, then take your scratched one back in it's place, complain to the store that they sold you a scratched lens and ask for a refund.

or is that dishonest  :angry:
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: pfigen on September 08, 2005, 02:03:51 pm
Front element scratches are always worse on wide angle lenses than telephotos while rear element scratches are worse on teles. The more you stop down and the closer you focus with your front element scratch, the more likely you are to start seeing it. If it's just a coating scratch, it will likely be less noticeable than a deeper scratch into the glass itself.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 09, 2005, 08:50:22 am
Quote
The sneaky way would be to go and buy another lens, then take your scratched one back in it's place, complain to the store that they sold you a scratched lens and ask for a refund.

or is that dishonest  
Yes it is dishonest, and yes, your suggestion to do so reflects badly on your character. You are suggesting that one shift the financial burden of one's own mistake to either the camera retailer or lens manufacturer. In the absence of an extended warranty that specifically covers accidental damage, such an action is fraud, and would be illegal. The odds of being prosecuted may be fairly low, but you're still advocating an illegal act in most jurisdictions.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: BobMcCarthy on September 09, 2005, 11:30:22 am
Quote
I recollect reading somewhere that a dab of black pen on a front element scratch would disguise any flare orignating from the blemish. Anyone tried this?
Tony Collins

Tony,

The black pen idea does work. The light falling in the area of the scratch is blocked and the effect of the scratch is negated but for a small loss of contrast.

But, I could never do it as it kills the resale value of the lens for most folks and just puts in my head, that I'm not getting the best from the lens.

Bob
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: dmerger on September 09, 2005, 02:35:34 pm
Ard's response to my initial post dispels any notion that his suggestion was in jest or intended as a joke.  I can't understand how anyone could conclude otherwise or tolerate Ard's statements.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: macgyver on September 09, 2005, 03:34:11 pm
I always keep a UV filter on my lenses just so things like this don't happen.  Is that a generally good idea?

-macgyver
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: philthygeezer on September 07, 2005, 07:03:17 pm
Turns out I just put a 5mm - long scratch on the front element of my EF17-40mm L, about 1/2 way from center to the edge.

I've never scratched a lens since 1996!  This lens is only 9 months old, and it was the sharpest of 5 that I tried.  :(

Will the scratch affect my image quality?  Should I have the front element replaced and would it be covered under warranty repairs?  

   :(
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: Paul Williamson on September 08, 2005, 02:21:41 am
Take some test shots and find out. You might be surprised how little degradation you get from a single isolated scratch. I predict you won't be able to see the effect, except possibly as a slight loss in contrast when the light source shines on the lens surface.

I trust you'll forgive me if I don't go put a 5mm scratch on one of my own lenses to confirm my answer before posting. Let us know what you find with your scratched lens.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 08, 2005, 11:44:35 am
Quote
The sneaky way would be to go and buy another lens, then take your scratched one back in it's place, complain to the store that they sold you a scratched lens and ask for a refund.

or is that dishonest  
Maybe that's why the camera stores I know put the serial number of the lens on the sales slip.

I put (accidentally) a substantial scratch on a fine 300 mm lens for my 8x10 view camera a few years ago, and it turned out to make no visible difference in my photos. Of course I was generally stopped pretty well down. The scratch made the biggest difference in the price when I sold it .    

Eric
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: dmerger on September 08, 2005, 01:52:16 pm
Ard, yes it would be dishonest.  Just who do you think would bear the cost with your suggestion?  The local camera store owner?  Is that fair?  I suspect that your suggestion shows much about your character or lack thereof.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: ARD on September 09, 2005, 04:44:54 am
Quote
Ard, yes it would be dishonest.  Just who do you think would bear the cost with your suggestion?  The local camera store owner?  Is that fair?  I suspect that your suggestion shows much about your character or lack thereof.
Sorry Vicar, and no, it would be Canon who bore the cost, and their production costs for the lens would be a few dollars.

Do not judge my character based on a thread I have posted here. I gave an option that most would explore as lenses cost a lot of money.

Also, it would go back to Canon for a new front lens and be sold as new again.

I am not getting into a flaming situation over this, but I would ask that you think about your writings prior to characterising me.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: Tony Collins on September 09, 2005, 07:14:09 am
I recollect reading somewhere that a dab of black pen on a front element scratch would disguise any flare orignating from the blemish. Anyone tried this?
Tony Collins
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: bob mccarthy on September 09, 2005, 08:25:27 am
The location of the scratch is very important. In the center its a disaster, on the edge, likely inconsequencal. Halfway out, it will only show up wide open or down a stop or two. Look at any old glass, its full of bubbles and internal defects. They were just expected and certainly had minimal effect on the image.

Is the scratch minor or significant in depth?

If significant in any way, I would send it to the repair department. It "might" cause an unintended effect in the "perfect" shot of the shoot of a lifetime. One where you need all the capabilities of the lens. Sunrise/set perfect light, shooting wide open, light is falling across the front of the lens at an acute angle. Your head is into the capture.

"####, I forgot to stop down to eliminate the flare from the scratch"  

Been there - done that in slightly different circumstances.

Bob
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: howard smith on September 09, 2005, 09:02:30 am
How would ARD feel if he bought a lens and discovered it was scratvhed, and the dealer and Canon refused to take it back.  Ripped off I would guess.  Why should the retailer and Canon feel any different.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: howard smith on September 09, 2005, 10:40:23 am
Bob, I have never heard of this either.  It was merely an example.  But it is dishonest to take advantage.  Nordstrom's take back anything for any reason.  I knew a guy who returned a year's old pair of Levi's with holes and paint stains becasue the zipper broke.  I thought that was pushing a good policy, and may spoil it for others.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: BobMcCarthy on September 09, 2005, 03:00:00 pm
Quote
Re: Scratch

Can you post some shots of the scratch on the lens, and some shots of how it affects your pictures?

I'm curious about the real-world effects of scratches/blemishes on lenses.

Put a camera on a tripod shooting at something overhead.

Put small pieces of white monofilamant and black thread on the lens.

Shoot at various apertures.

Bet its hard to see much effect unless the debris is centered and at a small F/stop.

I have some old Nikon/Canon/Leitz lenses from the 50's and 60's with lots of air bubbles in the glass.

Still shooting wonderful pix if I do my part.

Its mostly a value situation unless the scratch is deep and then its a problem.

We should ask the optical guru.

Bob
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: LesGirrior on September 09, 2005, 12:37:23 pm
Re: ARD

I think people are taking what sounded like a joke (to me) a bit too seriously.

I thought it was pretty funny, myself.  Lets all hug and be friends.

/hug

Re: Scratch

Can you post some shots of the scratch on the lens, and some shots of how it affects your pictures?

I'm curious about the real-world effects of scratches/blemishes on lenses.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: Hank on September 09, 2005, 01:54:45 pm
It's amazing to me that anyone would damage a product through neglect, then try to blame the dealer or mfr.  

It's even more amazing that the morality would merit discussion.  

How would you feel if someone bought a lens from you, scratched it, then brought it back and demanded a refund?

What a world.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: howard smith on September 09, 2005, 03:30:23 pm
Just a hunch, but I wouldn't expect a UV filter to help at all - now.  A lens shade might help keep stray light off the scratch though.

Just a wild idea.  My wife's car had a chip in the windshield.  The insurance paid to have it "fixed" with a glue like filler.  Couldn't see the scratch anymore.  However, this might do unspeakable things to the coating around the scratch if the glue got on it and had to be removed.

My advice would be to try it with the scratch.  If it doesn't show, leave it alone.  If you can see a difference, get a new one and sell the old on as a very used lens.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: howard smith on September 09, 2005, 03:39:48 pm
I thought the enquirary had to do with now that the lens is scratched.  As for the UV filter insurance, that is a very personal solution.  Some do, some don't, some use a shade or lens cap.  I use the shade and lens cap.  Nevedr had a scratch.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: BobMcCarthy on September 09, 2005, 03:51:19 pm
Quote
 The insurance paid to have it "fixed" with a glue like filler.  Couldn't see the scratch anymore.  

Please don't. You want to block light from the defect being seen by the sensor/film. The surface shape from the glue is certainly not the same as the surface grind of the lens and will just dump out of focus light onto the sensor/film.

bob
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 07, 2005, 08:56:29 pm
Quote
Will the scratch affect my image quality?  Should I have the front element replaced and would it be covered under warranty repairs?
In order:

Yes. How much depends on lighting and the magnitude of the scratch.

Probably yes.

Probably not. Warranties typically do not cover self-inflicted damage.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: Hank on September 08, 2005, 01:36:12 pm
Any scratches I've encountered are only a problem if light falls directly on the front element.  Using a lens shade and/or shading the front of the lens with your hand should prevent it if the shooting circumstances allow.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: bob mccarthy on September 09, 2005, 08:11:33 am
Quote
Do not judge my character based on a thread I have posted here. I gave an option that most would explore as lenses cost a lot of money.

Also, it would go back to Canon for a new front lens and be sold as new again.

I has the same reaction to your post.

If I scratched the lens, it is not the responsibility of the camera store nor the manufacture. It is mine. It is fundamentally dishonest to pass it on to anyone else whether they could better afford it or not.

Whoever handles the damages will sink cost into handeling the repair and loss of value of the lens.

And no I dont believe "most" would handle it this way. Certainly not most of the folks I communicate on or off line.

Where are your ethics man!!
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: BobMcCarthy on September 09, 2005, 10:31:50 am
Quote
How would ARD feel if he bought a lens and discovered it was scratvhed, and the dealer and Canon refused to take it back.  Ripped off I would guess.  Why should the retailer and Canon feel any different.

I've never had a dealer refuse to take back a defective product. I even had Canon and Nikon both cover product outside of the warranty period.

If this happened, as you describe your scenario, I could understand feeling ripped off. I just don't think it happens very often, if at all.

Thats not what we're talking about.

Bob
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: dmerger on September 09, 2005, 12:42:03 pm
Ard, your response to my post affirms your lack of character.
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: BryanHansel on September 09, 2005, 01:39:09 pm
Quote
The sneaky way would be to go and buy another lens, then take your scratched one back in it's place, complain to the store that they sold you a scratched lens and ask for a refund.

or is that dishonest  :angry:
Yes, it would be sneaky.  Yes, it would be dishonest. Yes, it would show a lack of personal responsibility.  If you wrote this in jest, it isn't funny.  This type of comment stinks of immaturity.  I seriously hope that you wouldn't do anything like this.

Before taking up photography full-time, I worked in retail as a corporate buyer, assistant manager, and a sales person for a 22 store chain, which had one of the best return policies in the nation.  We took back everything from dog beds that were torn to shreds from a dog biting, chewing, and roughing it up, to tents that worked just fine but came back moldy because the customer failed to dry the tent before storage.  Many times, we would be able to get refunded from the manufacture or distributor, but often that item would find its way into the dumpster.  Sometimes, I couldn't believe some of the clothing that was returned, shoes worn for a year, clothing ripped by thorns, dresses worn out for a night.  Jerseys stinking of bar.  Hiking boots obviously worn until they couldn't be worn anymore.  Several kayaks and canoes that were beaten up and returned because they got scratches, baseball bats that got dented, skis that got a scratch from skiing over rocks, inline skates that needed new wheels, arrows that bent, fishing rods that broke from abuse, don't even get me started on the bikes, and some of the exercise equipment, torn coats, dirty sleeping bags, and I could fill up this forum with more and more examples.

Sometimes, it was a honest defect, but most of the time, it was abuse and the customer was just trying to get a deal or a new item for something they had obviously done.  And you know what, after seven years of seeing, at least, two to three dishonest returns everyday, you get to know what is a honest return and what isn't.  All in all at a $25 million a year store in a $300 million chain, the dishonest returns put a very little dent in overall profit margins.  And you want to know why they do?

Because, we ran the stores shooting for a specific margin goal for each store, and rewarded greatly the managers and assistant managers when they hit this goal.  Guess who paid for the dishonest returns?  The customers.  We passed the cost onto them.  The manufactors do the same (How do I know?  I've worked with 100s of them.)  So, if you think it doesn't cost the customer in the long run, listen to experience, it does.

It's ideas like these that really show the state of personal responsibility or lack there of.

Bryan
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: LesGirrior on September 09, 2005, 03:20:11 pm
Cool, good to know, thanks Bob.

Any opinions about the necessity of a "protective" UV filter in regards to lens scratch visibility?  For/Against?
Title: Scratch on front element of EF17-40mm L
Post by: BobMcCarthy on September 09, 2005, 03:43:51 pm
Quote
Cool, good to know, thanks Bob.

Any opinions about the necessity of a "protective" UV filter in regards to lens scratch visibility?  For/Against?

I do not.

I agree they can help protect the front lens element, but then I paid beau-coup bucks for the best lenses I can buy. I just can't see adding an additional glass element with two air/glass surfaces to the optical formula.

I know coatings have gotten better, but is it hard to grind glass "perfectly" plano. I don't know but it used to be. I would be OK with a filter on a tele, but wary on a superwide.

I have to admit, I've been real lucky and never damaged a lens front element, but I'm anal about keeping the caps and a hard shade on when I'm not pulling the trigger.

bob