Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: stevecoleccs on April 17, 2008, 03:02:31 pm
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Hi - I have a 1ds MKlll & shoot with the 50mm 1.2 & 85mm 1.2. When I shoot at 1.2 with
either of these lenses the image is slightly soft, I'm shooting an "object" that is 10 feet away.
I tried shooting again at infinite with the same resluts. If I shoot at 2.8 everything is fine.
Is there some micro adjustment to be made somewhere? or is this the way it is.
~ cole
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Hi - I have a 1ds MKlll & shoot with the 50mm 1.2 & 85mm 1.2. When I shoot at 1.2 with
either of these lenses the image is slightly soft, I'm shooting an "object" that is 10 feet away.
I tried shooting again at infinite with the same resluts. If I shoot at 2.8 everything is fine.
Is there some micro adjustment to be made somewhere? or is this the way it is.
~ cole
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=190200\")
Here it is on a 20D.
[a href=\"http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1000/cat/10]http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct...uct/1000/cat/10[/url]
It won't be any better on a FF camera.
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Here it is on a 20D.
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct...uct/1000/cat/10 (http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1000/cat/10)
It won't be any better on a FF camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190202\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the link - it is a big help, I guess I'll just shoot at F/2.8!
~ cole
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Thanks for the link - it is a big help, I guess I'll just shoot at F/2.8!
~ cole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190208\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What is your camera workflow? In other words, do you Lock-Focus-Recompose when using such a fast aperture? Do you manually pick and choose the best focus point, use it to lock focus, NOT recompose, then take the shot?
It could be that this is not a lens issue but a user issue.
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I think this thread belongs more to one of those 'Your Equipment Does NOT Matter' threads. Here we have a guy who shoots with some of the best equipment there is on this planet, produces wonderful results with it, and yet apparently has no clue whatsoever how lenses work. I mean no offense to the OP, I did enjoy photography on his website... just a rhetorical observation.
Slobodan
P.S. Here is another rhetorical question: if the solution is to shoot at f/2.8, what is the point in using two lenses that are twice as heavy, have slower autofocus and stunningly 5x more expensive than their brethren (i.e., 85/1.8 and 50/1.4)?
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I'm pretty sure the f1.2s can survive reentry from orbit. So if that's a concern they're probably good to have.
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Hi - I have a 1ds MKlll & shoot with the 50mm 1.2 & 85mm 1.2. When I shoot at 1.2 with
either of these lenses the image is slightly soft, I'm shooting an "object" that is 10 feet away.
I tried shooting again at infinite with the same resluts. If I shoot at 2.8 everything is fine.
Is there some micro adjustment to be made somewhere? or is this the way it is.
~ cole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190200\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Steve,
I'm shooting wide open with the 85mm f/1.2L II and 1Ds MKIII also. As to be expected, DOF is extremely shallow so most of the image area that is not on the plane of focus is soft/OOF. However, with mine, the subject that sits in the plane of focus and especially at the focus point is TACK SHARP. I did spend time micro-adjusting the 1Ds MKIII to perfection to achieve this as @ f/1.2, any error is punished dramatically. I hope this feedback will motivate you not to just shoot @ f/2.8 but to re-visit getting the body and those lenses into tune.
Best regards,
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Dear Steve,
I'm shooting wide open with the 85mm f/1.2L II and 1Ds MKIII also. As to be expected, DOF is extremely shallow so most of the image area that is not on the plane of focus is soft/OOF. However, with mine, the subject that sits in the plane of focus and especially at the focus point is TACK SHARP. I did spend time micro-adjusting the 1Ds MKIII to perfection to achieve this as @ f/1.2, any error is punished dramatically. I hope this feedback will motivate you not to just shoot @ f/2.8 but to re-visit getting the body and those lenses into tune.
Best regards,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190257\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Henry for your comment, I'll try micro-adjusting my camera & experment a little more.
~ cole
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I think this thread belongs more to one of those 'Your Equipment Does NOT Matter' threads.
- Nope - this has nothing to do with "that" subject.
P.S. Here is another rhetorical question: if the solution is to shoot at f/2.8, what is the point in using two lenses that are twice as heavy, have slower autofocus and stunningly 5x more expensive than their brethren (i.e., 85/1.8 and 50/1.4)?
- Because I first bought the lens to shoot at 1.2, my question is why is it no tack sharp.
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What else could one expect from such a wide opening with such a big chunk of glass?
I love its softness and bokeh @1.2. @f5.6 it is my sharpest lens and with little distortion. I basically use it only at these 2 fstops, one for very shallow depth of field and the other for maximum sharpness at the given plane of focus. Great perfomer.
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Hi - I have a 1ds MKlll & shoot with the 50mm 1.2 & 85mm 1.2. When I shoot at 1.2 with
either of these lenses the image is slightly soft, I'm shooting an "object" that is 10 feet away.
I tried shooting again at infinite with the same resluts. If I shoot at 2.8 everything is fine.
Is there some micro adjustment to be made somewhere? or is this the way it is.
~ cole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190200\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nice work
Mike
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A quick sample
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There are obviously 2 things going on here. The shallow DoF of F1.2 necessitates more accurate focussing. Having got your accurate focussing, the results should appear sharp in relation to the surrounding OoF areas, but in fact will not be particularly sharp because most lenses are simply not sharp at such wide apertures. As regards camera lenses, it might be the case that no lens ever made is sharp at such apertures.
Here's an old Photodo MTF chart of the 85/1.2. The lower curve represents contrast at 40 lp/mm. The 1Ds3 is capable of recording 60 lp/mm. Any detail in the subject at 60 lp/mm (and probably at 50 lp/mm) simply won't register on the 1Ds3 sensor, using the 85/1.2 at full aperture.
[attachment=6188:attachment]
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Hi Steve,
Are you shooting autofocus with central spot or is this happening with manual focus? I ask as a user of the 1DS3 with the 85f1.2 mk2 myself because my 85 won't autofocus correctly at all with my 1DS3, sometimes it gets it but most times not. The camera has been back to Canon and has been calibrated with that lens, however it still cannot be used with absolute confidence. Ignore all the feedback suggesting that the 85 is not sharp at full aperture because it is, unbelievably so, but manual focus is the only option, and even then on certain subjects it's a little hit and miss, however when right it's sharp as a tack....
The 50mm maybe a different kettle of fish, and is a lens i dearly wanted to buy but did not because of the focus shift issues at close range and also its average performance at wide open, which after all is the whole point of owning that lens. In the end i decided upon a Canon 50macro and a Zeiss ZF 50f1.4 with a Nikon to Canon adapter. Even though they are not that fast they can both be used near wide open with confidence and do not suffer with focus shifting upon stopping down, something to do with the Canon 50f1.2 and spherical aberations whilst not having floating elements for closeup, unlike the 85f1.2 which does.
Hope that helps even though it may not be an answer to your problem, if of course you are experiencing the problem with manual focus also then you may have a poor performing (calibrated) 85mm, as i tested 3 in store to get the one i own and it was better than the other 2 all manually focussed.
Lastly, again if manual focus is your preference you may wish to consider a matt screen, as a colleague of mine did recently with his 1DS for use with his Contax 85f1.4 and 135f2, both of which are now bang on almost every time at full opening which it was not with the original autofocus screen. If autofocus is your bag then all i can say is good luck, cos i don't think the camera can be relied upon with certain lenses at anything other than closeup where it's reliable, and crazily enough my 135f2 is perfect wide open in autofocus or manual so what gives?
Regards, Gary.
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There are obviously 2 things going on here. The shallow DoF of F1.2 necessitates more accurate focussing. Having got your accurate focussing, the results should appear sharp in relation to the surrounding OoF areas, but in fact will not be particularly sharp because most lenses are simply not sharp at such wide apertures. As regards camera lenses, it might be the case that no lens ever made is sharp at such apertures.
Here's an old Photodo MTF chart of the 85/1.2. The lower curve represents contrast at 40 lp/mm. The 1Ds3 is capable of recording 60 lp/mm. Any detail in the subject at 60 lp/mm (and probably at 50 lp/mm) simply won't register on the 1Ds3 sensor, using the 85/1.2 at full aperture.
[attachment=6188:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My 85L Mark I is razor sharp at F1.2. So is my 50L when I use it properly. The biggest reason some people find soft focus at those wide open apertures is because they recompose, and/or do not manually specify the most appropriate focus point. These people often have years experience shooting and may well even compose greatly, but still, when shooting fast and close, they shot like a newbie: Lock Focus Recompose.
Faulty lenses aside, if people would learn to use their DSLR as the maker intended, we might have less of these types of threads. Canon offers 9, 11, 45 focus points for a reason people, so use them (manual choosing), and doing so will not only improve wide open sharpness, your evaluative metering will improve too.
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These people often have years experience shooting and may well even compose greatly, but still, when shooting fast and close, they shot like a newbie: Lock Focus Recompose.
Which is why I wrote Why Focus-Recompose Sucks (http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photography/focus-recompose_sucks.htm)...
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Which is why I wrote Why Focus-Recompose Sucks (http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photography/focus-recompose_sucks.htm)...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So you're the one that wrote that!
Very good article!
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So you're the one that wrote that!
Very good article!
Thank you.
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My 85L Mark I is razor sharp at F1.2. So is my 50L when I use it properly. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If it's razor sharp at F1.2, then what is it at F5.6? What's sharper than a razor? ...I'm trying to think!
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If it's razor sharp at F1.2, then what is it at F5.6? What's sharper than a razor? ...I'm trying to think!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ceramic or Damascus...as they are essentially micro level saws/serrated edges
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Thanks everyone for comments except for:
, if people would learn to use their DSLR as the maker intended, we might have less of these types of threads. Canon offers 9, 11, 45 focus points for a reason people, so use them (manual choosing), and doing so will not only improve...
useless comment.
As for "Why Focus-Recompose Sucks..." I am testing my new lens & camera on a tripod
without recomposing. I just wanted to know why I have soft images @ f/1.2 after spending
12K + (also after selling my P30+ & Contax system which is a killer system but not for
my style of shooting)
Thanks - I hope this thread ends.
~ cole
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delete...
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As for "Why Focus-Recompose Sucks..." I am testing my new lens & camera on a tripod
without recomposing. I just wanted to know why I have soft images @ f/1.2 after spending
12K + (also after selling my P30+ & Contax system which is a killer system but not for
my style of shooting)
It might be helpful if you post a sample RAW that shows the problem you're having. Since the Canon has an AA filter and your P30+ does not, you'll need to alter your sharpening methodology to achieve a similar level of pixel-level sharpness.
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Thanks everyone for comments except for:
, if people would learn to use their DSLR as the maker intended, we might have less of these types of threads. Canon offers 9, 11, 45 focus points for a reason people, so use them (manual choosing), and doing so will not only improve...
useless comment.
As for "Why Focus-Recompose Sucks..." I am testing my new lens & camera on a tripod
without recomposing. I just wanted to know why I have soft images @ f/1.2 after spending
12K + (also after selling my P30+ & Contax system which is a killer system but not for
my style of shooting)
Thanks - I hope this thread ends.
~ cole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190534\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Cole, so we're supposed to be mind readers and know your skill level eventhough you're a perfect stranger? To bad you think my comment is "useless"...your lousy attitude blocks your ability to learning. And your arrogance makes you look really bad....even Canon agrees with my comment about the evils of recomposing and the need to manually pick focus points, as they have included this information in their White Paper in getting the most from EOS kit. I guess Canon publishes "useless" information too....too bad your arrogance blocks your learning.
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Hi!
An interesting comparison using ISO-testchart and 1Ds2 (some lenses also with Ds3):
The Digital Picture com (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?FLI=0&API=0&Sample=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0&LensComp=397&CameraComp=9&SampleComp=0&Lens=403)
Cheers,
J
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people (and I) prefer recomposing because selecting focus points in a canon 1 series is so unintuitive! the 5d way of using a jaystick ist so much easier, i was really pissed off when i realised the 1dsmk3 is not using its joystick for that.
how could canon come up with using two controls for Selection? it is like using two mice on your computer, one for left and right, one for up and down... the rotation setting is missing out on too many of the focus points.
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people (and I) prefer recomposing because selecting focus points in a canon 1 series is so unintuitive! the 5d way of using a jaystick ist so much easier, i was really pissed off when i realised the 1dsmk3 is not using its joystick for that.
how could canon come up with using two controls for Selection? it is like using two mice on your computer, one for left and right, one for up and down... the rotation setting is missing out on too many of the focus points.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, that choosing a focus point manually on a 1D series body is a bit awkward, but with practice, it can be done fast, and easy. I would suggest you practice until the movements are 2nd nature...critical focus will improve as well as metering, and over time, you'll find yourself doing it without even thinking...naturally.
When shooting fast in aperture and close, why shot like a newbie? Use the body as intended by the maker. ;-)
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When I tested one of the 50 1.2s on my 5d, it backfocused every time within about 3.5 feet. I've never had a problem with the 85 1.2
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Jonathon
Re "why focus, recompose sucks".
Thank you for some interesting information that I had previously been ignorant of. What a great pastime photography is with so much to learn. My knowledge has just advanced a smidgen.
Jim
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Thank you!
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To test the lens sharpness and not the autofocus system ... set focus with LIVE VIEW at 10X and THEN evaluate the results.
Once you know if it's the lens or the focus system you have an issue with you can work towards fixing the problem.
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Check the depth of field chart at the "canon museum" -
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/...85_12l_usm.html (http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_85_12l_usm.html)
as you see at 1 meter it is the DOF is either on or off
[attachment=6248:attachment]
at 2 meters the DOF is .02 meters - if you try increasing the distance from the camera to subject you increase the DOF
Are you hand holding when you shoot, or do you use a tripod?
If i hand hold i will set the camera to multi exposure mode and take several image that way i increase my odds of having an image with correct focus. The slightest body movement will cause the image to be OOF.
Also rather than start out using 1.2 try 2.0 and work your way toward 1.2. It does take practice using 1.2. Someone compared it to swinging for a home run in baseball, you will strike out more but when you connect its sweet to watch.
Good Luck
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Check the depth of field chart at the "canon museum" -
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/...85_12l_usm.html (http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_85_12l_usm.html)
as you see at 1 meter it is the DOF is either on or off
[attachment=6248:attachment]
at 2 meters the DOF is .02 meters - if you try increasing the distance from the camera to subject you increase the DOF
Good Luck
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Based on my experience I think the DoF numbers are probably optimistic for the 50 1.4 in real digital life, so the 1.2 is likely less than this!!
Mike
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Based on my experience I think the DoF numbers are probably optimistic for the 50 1.4 in real digital life, so the 1.2 is likely less than this!!
Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do think you right and i believe the reason is testing in done shooting B+W line pairs in a lab environment. Real life is about shades, tones and texture ( and lets not forget movement )
regards
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I have been researching the Canon 50mm f/1.2 and I eventually bought it and it's a lovely lens.
However it was harshly criticised in the fredmiranda forums from 2006 roughly when it was introduced up to mid 2009 when opinion began to turn around.
It seems that later versions of this lens have less issues but Canon have not made any public statement about it. I made sure that my lens was made in 2010 by checking the date code.
The main criticism seems that it auto-focuses poorly in low light and it's soft at wide apertures.
I wondered if those people didn't consider the very narrow DoF and the trouble that some AF systems have with low light. I would suggest that this lens be focussed manually at low light levels.
The other topic which is not fully understood is focus shift. This can occur even if focussing manually. You focus wide open, no problem, but focus at say f/1.4 or f/1.8 and you get things out of focus. The phenomenon is that you set the aperture at f/1.4 and focus with a wide open aperture and the lens stops down to f/1.4 and the focus shifts to a short distance behind the subject. At smaller apertures, say f/2.0 the DoF increases and focus shift is no longer a problem.
You can test this by putting your camera on a tripod, focus on a suitable object like a ruler placed at 45 degrees and then take photos but just change the aperture. You may see the focus shift slightly behind the main area you focussed on.
This is a problem with fast lenses and even the expensive Noctilux can suffer this. It is not a defect but a law of physics and is can be designed around. Apparently a floating lens in the design mitigates this. I would say that every lens has focus shift in one form or another but it's probably not a problem with telephotos, wide angles etc. Seems to just be more noticeable with 50mm fast lenses.
Around 2009 Canon may have modified the design to reduce the complaining. Might have been a factor in the decision to no longer produce the 50mm f/1.0.
I hope I'm not stating the obvious but a search of the forum didn't really mention focus shift with fast lenses. In researching the 50mm f/1.2 before buying it, I found it fascinating that it had such poor reviews probably arising from a poor understanding of the focus shift issue.
You can Google this topic in respect to other fast lenses such as the Notilux and the Nikon 50mm f/1.2 which was first made in 1989 and is a manual focus lens. People are also discussing focus shift with these lenses too. Indeed, name any fast lens and someone comments on the focus shift issue.
It's interesting that very few fast lenses are still in production, mainly because they are expensive. The other one which comes to mind is the Noktor which is the four thirds f/0.95 lens.
I think focus shift is a worse problem with large formats, view cameras and bellows type rigs (correct me if I'm wrong)
Anyway (as I said before) I found the topic fascinating and the Canon lens may have been unjustifiably maligned.
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"people (and I) prefer recomposing because selecting focus points in a canon 1 series is so unintuitive! the 5d way of using a jaystick ist so much easier, i was really pissed off when i realised the 1dsmk3 is not using its joystick for that."
Have you not enabled the joystick on your 1DsMKIII? Once you do that, it's just like the 5D but you have more control points literally at your fingertip. Microfocus adjust is mandatory on a 1DsMKIII with any lens, but particularly with the 85L. Once you really dial it in, the lens is quite sharp wide open and the focus is quite accurate, even using the peripheral AF points. Yes, it does get sharper to about 5.6, but it's still very very sharp wide open and more than usable even on a 21mp sensor.