Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on March 24, 2008, 07:03:54 pm

Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 24, 2008, 07:03:54 pm
Dear all,

I tried to remove some dust spots from my D3 sensor this morning using the Artic Butterfly thing. It is the old model, but I hadn't used it for a very long time.

I made it rotate, stopped it and applied it to the sensor, hoping that it would be a 30 sec painless operation... it wasn't, the artic butterfly left some greasy residue on the sensor...

I thought no problem, I can use the smear away thing next to remove the greasy residue left by the artic butterfly... it worked to some extend, but left its own residue on the sensor...

I tried then to clean that residue using the sensor clean thing... still not working.

30 minutes later, I am left with an awfully dirty sensor, 25 less stabs and a situation much worse than it was one hour ago.

The residue do show clearly on pictures, especially in skies.

I am both very disapointed with the Visible dust products, but also extremely worried with the current state of my D3 sensor. I am not even sure that Nikon service center would be able to fix it at this point of time.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

Cheers,
Bernard
 
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 24, 2008, 07:32:26 pm
Kept doing more of the same for another 30 min... it seems that it solved most of the residue thing... but left many dust spots...

The I tried using for the first time the brush supplied in the Visible dust kit... and guess what... it left some more greasy residues on the sensor...

Another 15 minutes later, I managed to get rid of it. Still some dust though...

What an amazingly frustrating experience.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: Tim Gray on March 24, 2008, 07:53:27 pm
The D3 has an anti dust sensor?  If so, and if it's like the Canon's (3's) the chamber is coated with "stuff" that's meant to hold the dust once it's vibrated off the sensor, but if you touch the brush to the chamber side then you'll transfer gunk to the sensor.  A royal PITA that I've experienced first hand.  VD has cleaning tablets for their brushes, if you have any tolerance left..  
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 24, 2008, 08:06:04 pm
I saw someone on DPreview (Louis Dobson?) mention that there is something alongside the D3 sensor that you can stab your brush into that will get all over the sensor.  Obviously it wasn't just his camera.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: kaelaria on March 24, 2008, 08:07:59 pm
I've been using my original VD for years, and have never had 'residue' on or from it.  Not sure where you picked it up, but don't blame the company for your dirty brush.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 24, 2008, 08:23:49 pm
Quote
I've been using my original VD for years, and have never had 'residue' on or from it.  Not sure where you picked it up, but don't blame the company for your dirty brush.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184004\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fair enough, it could be my usage of the gear, but I have hardly ever used it since I purchased it... I don't quite see where it could be coming from.

One hypothesis would be the camera itself, but this would be pretty surprising.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: httivals on March 25, 2008, 12:12:03 am
Bernard: It's not you -- it's the design of the visible dust products.  I had the same thing happen on my Canon 5D.  I cleaned the brush using alcohol as described by visible dust and it happened several more times before I threw out the visible dust brush.  It happens to many people who use the visible dust products; for some reason, others never have a problem.  There's grease inside the mirror chamber walls.  If you ever touch the side of the walls with any fibres from the brush it gets the grease on it and then drags it across your sensor glass.  The easiest way to clean it off is with Eclipse or E2 (depending on which your sensor requires) and a copperhill spatula and pec pads.   Eclipse is the best for cleaning gunk off your sensor. . . . At this point, I only use a blower and a copperhill spatula and Eclipse for cleaning.  I do not have problems any more and haven't had any problems since I threw out the Vsibile Dust brush.  OTOH, I love the Visible Dust sensor loupe.  If the VD brushes work for you fine, but I would ignore all of the statements on the website about the risk of damage to your sensor glass from other people's products. . .   I've tried most or all products for cleaning sensors and the other ones I like are from dust-aid.

Quote
Fair enough, it could be my usage of the gear, but I have hardly ever used it since I purchased it... I don't quite see where it could be coming from.

One hypothesis would be the camera itself, but this would be pretty surprising.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184008\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: kaelaria on March 25, 2008, 12:26:11 am
You HAVE to be kidding - right?

You are blaming the company that made the brush for it not staying clean after you MISUSED it and touched *grease*?

People like you that can't be responsible and mature are the reason Coffee cups have HOT warnings on them.

Unreal.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 25, 2008, 12:38:52 am
Quote
You HAVE to be kidding - right?

You are blaming the company that made the brush for it not staying clean after you MISUSED it and touched *grease*?

People like you that can't be responsible and mature are the reason Coffee cups have HOT warnings on them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well... it could be me... or it could be that some coffee cups are really too hot, and that some brushes are worse than others at picking up grease.

If I did touch the walls of the chamber of my D3, it is extremely slightly for a fraction of a second... but then again I could swear that I didn't touch the walls of the chamber at all.

Being fortunate enough to be working with bodies that pick up very little dust, I am definitely less experienced than others at sensor cleaning, but I don't have the feeling to be abnormally clumsy. If I am facing these issues, many others must have been facing them too, as some of the answers to this thread seem to testify.

If it is technologically impossible for Visible Dust to prevent accidental grease pick up from camera's chambers, then I would at least expect their very thin manual to convey some of the risks and to provide advice.

It could be that newer versions of their package do contain more details, but I was an early customers of them.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: kaelaria on March 25, 2008, 04:27:01 am
NO BRUSH should have to be qualified at all on 'picking up grease' any more than resistance to fire after a blundering user accidentally torches it while lighting a cigar.

The VD instructions have always been very clear and up on the website even from the early days.  Funny, how so many others have not had the issue - oh that's right, we clean our sensors correctly.  It's crystal clear that you are ONLY to touch the AA screen (sensor) and nothing else.  They even have nice little videos in case the reading level is too tough.

Hey - I'm going to complain about my MINI tomorrow because when I ran into a tree tonight, the front end was badly damanged.  I suppose it *could* be my fault, but I'm sure other cars would be better.  
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 25, 2008, 04:42:33 am
Quote
The VD instructions have always been very clear and up on the website even from the early days.  Funny, how so many others have not had the issue - oh that's right, we clean our sensors correctly.  It's crystal clear that you are ONLY to touch the AA screen (sensor) and nothing else.  They even have nice little videos in case the reading level is too tough.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And touching only the sensor is clearly what I tried to do, and I can not have been very far off the mark in doing so... yet I had these problems.

It could be with the D3, I don't know, but I understand that Visible Dust cannot be held responsible for problems with a combination of their product with another one not yet available at the time of release.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: marcmccalmont on March 25, 2008, 09:15:14 am
Quote
NO BRUSH should have to be qualified at all on 'picking up grease' any more than resistance to fire after a blundering user accidentally torches it while lighting a cigar.

The VD instructions have always been very clear and up on the website even from the early days.  Funny, how so many others have not had the issue - oh that's right, we clean our sensors correctly.  It's crystal clear that you are ONLY to touch the AA screen (sensor) and nothing else.  They even have nice little videos in case the reading level is too tough.

Hey - I'm going to complain about my MINI tomorrow because when I ran into a tree tonight, the front end was badly damanged.  I suppose it *could* be my fault, but I'm sure other cars would be better.   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

He is asking for help not a hard time.
Marc
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: Conner999 on March 25, 2008, 09:18:56 am
It is a well-documented issue, but not VD's problem.

Most new DSLRS have an amazing amount of lubricants inside the mirror box. More is also thrown around by air pressure shifts due to shutter/mirror movement and the shutter/mirror hardware itself every time the shutter is tripped. It is one of the ways they assure 100,000+ activation shutter life.

Foam pads will also pick it up, but you notice it less because is diluted by the cleaning fluid on the pad.

One trick is to get a brush designed for a sub-FF sensor. It's smaller width makes accidently 'coloring outside the lines' difficult. The accepted way to do it (aside from the obvious):

1. Use a narrow brush and trim off any errant 'bristles' that decided to go off on a tangent and may touch the mirror box walls. Same as trimming errant bristles on a paint brush when painting trim.

2. Use the VD Sensor Loupe - works like a @#$R charm - spot the dust particles on the sensor. Dust stands out like craters on the moon using this sucker. No test shots required.

3. Lightly pass the charged brush JUST OVER, NOT ON the sensor where some dust was seen.
The static 'cling' on the brush will lift the dust off the sensor. Since the brush is not touching the sensor or surrounding mirror box, the odds of goop transfer to any brush threads is low.

4. Take another look with the loupe, charge the brush, and repeat in other areas where necessary.

5. If you even SUSPECT the brush as touched grease, clean it.

I can spot-clean my 1Ds2 in 2 min using this method.



 
Quote
And touching only the sensor is clearly what I tried to do, and I can not have been very far off the mark in doing so... yet I had these problems.

It could be with the D3, I don't know, but I understand that Visible Dust cannot be held responsible for problems with a combination of their product with another one not yet available at the time of release.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: kaelaria on March 25, 2008, 09:21:45 am
Quote
He is asking for help not a hard time.
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Read it again.

He's asking for help and at the same time ranting about a company and a product.

I'm defending such company and GREAT product against such baseless remarks so others don't get the wrong idea based on his ignorance.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: marcmccalmont on March 25, 2008, 09:36:06 am
Quote
It is a well-documented issue, but not VD's problem.

Most new DSLRS have an amazing amount of lubricants inside the mirror box. More is also thrown around by air pressure shifts due to shutter/mirror movement and the shutter/mirror hardware itself every time the shutter is tripped. It is one of the ways they assure 100,000+ activation shutter life.

Foam pads will also pick it up, but you notice it less because is diluted by the cleaning fluid on the pad.

One trick is to get a brush designed for a sub-FF sensor. It's smaller width makes accidently 'coloring outside the lines' difficult. The accepted way to do it (aside from the obvious):

1. Use a narrow brush and trim off any errant 'bristles' that decided to go off on a tangent and may touch the mirror box walls. Same as trimming errant bristles on a paint brush when painting trim.

2. Use the VD Sensor Loupe - works like a @#$R charm - spot the dust particles on the sensor. Dust stands out like craters on the moon using this sucker. No test shots required.

3. Lightly pass the charged brush JUST OVER, NOT ON the sensor where some dust was seen.
The static 'cling' on the brush will lift the dust off the sensor. Since the brush is not touching the sensor or surrounding mirror box, the odds of goop transfer to any brush threads is low.

4. Take another look with the loupe, charge the brush, and repeat in other areas where necessary.

5. If you even SUSPECT the brush as touched grease, clean it.

I can spot-clean my 1Ds2 in 2 min using this method.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is a great example of a helpful post.
Thanks
Marc
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on March 25, 2008, 10:29:24 am
I have been fortunate in that I haven't (yet) screwed up the sensor on my 5D with my Arctic Butterfly. But I must agree with Bernard that VB's documentation is extremely scanty. Connor999's post is a vast improvement on their instructions.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 25, 2008, 10:35:44 am
Quote
He's asking for help and at the same time ranting about a company and a product.

I'm defending such company and GREAT product against such baseless remarks so others don't get the wrong idea based on his ignorance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I might have been too harsh on VD but I believe that the best way you can help others is to be objective about this issue.

Calling me an ignorant is your prerogative and doesn't hurt my feeling the least bit, but are you really sure that you are not downplaying a real situation that others should know about?

Whether the issue is purely usage related, or whether it is product dependant is IMHO not that relevant. The bottom line is that the process is clearly not as idiot proofs as some have advertised. I am glad to play the role of the idiot if it can help preventing others from running into the kind of troubles I have faced this morning.

I'd love to hear about other Nikon D3 users experience with the VD products. You aren't one, are you?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 25, 2008, 10:38:46 am
Quote
It is a well-documented issue, but not VD's problem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the post, very helpful indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: n1r0t on March 25, 2008, 10:47:48 am
I've used my Arctic Butterfly for years without a problem on my 20D. I for one am glad you posted Bernard because I would have assumed similar use would work when I upgrade. At least I'm now aware of the risks. This post has been very enlightening.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: seanw on March 25, 2008, 11:12:46 am
Hi Bernard,

I too have had issues with using brushes for sensor cleaning - both the grease issue and just not getting all the dust in general. I know this does not help your current situation, but maybe this will be of use for future cleanings. Here's a link to the product I now use to clean my cameras.

http://www.sensor-film.com/ (http://www.sensor-film.com/)

I think they have a short video on the site showing the cleaning procedure.

It is by no means a quick procedure because you have to let the film dry. But after the film has been applied and dried you can blow out all the dust in the chamber and then peel off the film. It works great and has been the best cleaning solution I have found. Leaves nothing behind. Works much better than brushes, swabs and solutions.

Sean
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: Greg Barnett on March 25, 2008, 12:32:50 pm
Bernard,

Iíve experienced the same issue using VD brushes and other products as well. Sometimes it just seems unavoidable. But in the end, Iíve always been able to de-gunk the sensor after smearing it up. The brushes clean up well and Iíve been able to continue to use them with success. What seems to have helped for me is to get set up under a good light source and use a magnifier to make sure Iím keeping the brush on target.

And from personal experience, if you have a cat, donít let it come anywhere near you when cleaning a sensor... ;-)

Greg
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 25, 2008, 12:47:32 pm
Quote
And from personal experience, if you have a cat, donít let it come anywhere near you when cleaning a sensor... ;-)

I was wet cleaning my 20D one day.  I turn to put a drop of eclipse on a swab.  I turn back to find Rushmore with her nose IN the camera.  Keep them far away.  I won't describe the stream of cat hair I pulled off the print heads the other day.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: francois on March 25, 2008, 12:59:18 pm
Quote
I was wet cleaning my 20D one day.  I turn to put a drop of eclipse on a swab.  I turn back to find Rushmore with her nose IN the camera.  Keep them far away.  I won't describe the stream of cat hair I pulled off the print heads the other day.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184166\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Cats are devils! At least for computers and other electronic equipment.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BlasR on March 25, 2008, 03:23:11 pm
Lets kill the cat.

bernard, use diGiclean, it's the best..
 the brush it's trash.  give to the dog. dog know much better.

good luck


BlasR
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 25, 2008, 06:05:11 pm
Thank you all for your helpful answers.

Upon closer inspection, there are still many visible patterns on the sensor after a polonged additional session with Sensor clean.

I have decided to take my D3 to the Nikon service Center in Shinjuku this morning...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: GregW on March 25, 2008, 08:54:18 pm
The D3 hasn't picked up any serious dust spots, yet but I know it's only a matter of time.  I have some experience with the D200 and D2x.

I have the second generation Arctic Butterfly.  I've had good and bad experiences.  It does a great job on my wife's Canon 350d, but not on the D200 or D2x.  The Canon seems to use a less viscous grease.  It's also slightly easier to get to the sensor making it harder to drag the brush in the grease.

I have found that the brush must be cleaned and dried before use.  I originally purchased the AB because I had hoped it would be a good solution in the field. The concept is great but in my experience I or the tool is not precise enough to get really good, reproducible results with my Nikon gear.

Here is my current workflow.

- Mount the camera using a Manfroto pump cup to make it super secure
- Use a rocket blower to remove any surface dust
- Check with the Sensor Loupe.  If the job isn't good I have second go and if there are still spots I proceed to wet cleaning.
- Clean with Vdust and orange pads
- Check with the Sensor Loupe and repeat.  I've not needed more than 2 cycles up till now.
- Clean with Smear Away and green pads

I've always had great service from Visible Dust and I very much like their wet cleaning products.  I'm also happy to endorse the Sensor Loupe.  The AB is either not suited to my Nikon kit or I am not suited to the AB.

Thanks for explaining your experiences Bernard.  In any event I would have been very careful.  Now I will be doubly careful.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 25, 2008, 09:42:30 pm
Here is my current workflow.

- Mount the camera using a Manfroto pump cup to make it super secure
- Use a rocket blower to remove any surface dust
- Check with the Sensor Loupe.  If the job isn't good I have second go and if there are still spots I proceed to wet cleaning.
- Clean with Vdust and orange pads
- Check with the Sensor Loupe and repeat.  I've not needed more than 2 cycles up till now.
- Clean with Smear Away and green pads
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184300\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 26, 2008, 08:18:56 am
A concluding note on this:

- Nikon service center in Shinjuku managed to get rid of all the fluid left overs I couldn't manage to remove.
- They informed that the AA filter had some small scratches, most probably as a result of the usage of VD stabs,
- They proposed a sensor swap for the modest amount of 900 US$ (it takes a week), which I turned down...
- I need to do more test since night has already fallen over Tokyo, but the first samples I took show no sign of any impact of these small scratches. I need to make sure that violent light doesn't result in any light scattering away from the scratches.

As of now, it looks like a happy ending, but the whole experience has changed forever my relationship with sensor cleaning.  

Considering that the D3 only gathered a very reasonnable amount of dust over some 10.000 to 15.000 exposures in 3 months, I guess that I'll give up completely on sensor cleaning myself and will have the Nikon guys to it for me once every 3 months. That is both going to be cheaper and safer than relying on cleaning solutions..

Living 6 minutes train away from the largest Nikon service center in Japan can be convenient...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: Conner999 on March 26, 2008, 02:06:01 pm
Thanks guys.

Sorry to hear about the scratches. I had a 30D once with a god awful gash on it's sensor, but it never reared it's ugly head unless I was REALLY stopped down.
 

Quote
Thanks for the post, very helpful indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: schrodingerscat on March 26, 2008, 03:37:48 pm
Quote
A concluding note on this:

- Nikon service center in Shinjuku managed to get rid of all the fluid left overs I couldn't manage to remove. I am really lucky to live so close to this key facility,
- They informed that the AA filter had some small scratches, most probably as a result of the usage of VD stabs,
- They proposed a sensor swap for the modest amount of 900 US$ (it takes a week), which I turned down...
- I need to do more test since night has already fallen over Tokyo, but the first samples I took show no sign of any impact of these small scratches. I need to make sure that violent light doesn't result in any light scattering away from the scratches.

As of now, it looks like a happy ending, but the whole experience has changed forever my relationship with sensor cleaning.   

Considering that the D3 only gathered a very reasonnable amount of dust over some 10.000 to 15.000 exposures in 3 months, I guess that I'll give up completely on sensor cleaning myself and will have the Nikon guys to it for me once every 3 months. That is both going to be cheaper and safer than relying on cleaning solutions..

Living 6 minutes train away from the largest Nikon service center in Japan can be convenient...

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I perform an average of four to six sensor cleanings a week at the store I do repairs for.

Every time I get a camera with a streaked up low pass filter it has had a brush type cleaning tool applied to it and I advise the user to avoid them.

My procedure is this - Clean camera externally; use rocket blower to blow out mirror box, including behind mirrors; clean mirror; blow out mirror box again; put camera into sensor cleaning mode and blow off filter; check for stuck on stuff; use Eclipse and swab to remove stubborn spots. Just dampen the swab and never use a dry swab. Only one back and forth swipe with each swab.

DO NOT USE CANNED AIR OR COMPRESSORS.

This advice is based on having done several hundred services, but as the botanists say...

There's lots of snake oil out there as well as misinformation.

As far as preventive maintenance is concerned, perform a sensor cleaning before and after each time the camera is used. As you are just pushing air, there is no way to damage the camera and there's no such thing as too clean. Remember, nothing is getting on the filter while changing lenses. The only time the sensor is exposed is when the shutter is open. What is happening is that junk is getting in the mirror box and at the moment of exposure the mirrors create turbulence and the sensor develops a static charge, causing anything floating around in there to stick to it.

Keep body caps, rear of lenses and their caps, clean. Heck, keep everything clean, including bags and cases.

The self cleaning systems starting to show up are only so effective, so it helps to still blow the thing out manually.

So relax Bernard and with a little practice you can easily keep the spots under control. I've also seen many cameras with small fine scratches on the filter that have no material impact on the image.

Cheers

SC

PS - Are those six local minutes or Shinkansen minutes? There's an excellent, relatively inexpensive, sushi bar just a couple blocks north of the Shinjuku station. Unfortunately the name escapes me as it's been a few years.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: GregW on March 26, 2008, 04:00:25 pm
Quote
- They informed that the AA filter had some small scratches, most probably as a result of the usage of VD stabs,

Nikon are obviously experts on their own equipment but unless you used the swabs more than once without fluid I would have thought the Arctic Butterfly was the more likely culprit for the scratches.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: dseelig on March 26, 2008, 05:49:04 pm
My 5d streaked a ton of grease on my sensor when I used the sensor brush . There is a reason why the sell the liquid solutions, I used the chamber clean and the sensor clean and my problems went away . That said I love the new canons with the shake the dust off solutions.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 26, 2008, 05:53:03 pm
Quote
My 5d streaked a ton of grease on my sensor when I used the sensor brush . There is a reason why the sell the liquid solutions, I used the chamber clean and the sensor clean and my problems went away . That said I love the new canons with the shake the dust off solutions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No visible dust has appeared on my Xti in over a year of use.  The jury is out on my 40D at this point.  Worst case with my 20D was 100+ dust spots.  (After I dropped it.)

I like the sensor shaky shaky.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: stever on March 26, 2008, 09:29:52 pm
i can't say i've been overwhelmed by the performance of the Visible Dust brushes

based on my experience, and some reading about sensor cleaning, i think the key factor is getting rid of the oil deposited on the sensor during the first few thousand exposures by regular cleaning with Eclipse or the Visible Dust Smear Away (i find that Smear Away seems to leave a residue and should be followed by cleaning with one of their other products).  if not removed regularly, this oil collects dust, hardens, and becomes more difficult to remove - perhaps resulting in scratches

the camera manufacturers tried to ignore the sensor cleaning problem initially, and now we have ultrasonic cleaning --- which is probably near useless until the manufacturing lubrication is cleaned off the sensor manually

with the initial gunk removed i'd guess that the sensor brushes and built-in ultrasonics will give comparable results, i just wouldn't use the brush or trust the ultrasonics until the camera has 5-10k exposures with regular manual cleaning
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: marcmccalmont on March 26, 2008, 10:20:03 pm
Quote
A concluding note on this:

- Nikon service center in Shinjuku managed to get rid of all the fluid left overs I couldn't manage to remove.
- They informed that the AA filter had some small scratches, most probably as a result of the usage of VD stabs,
- They proposed a sensor swap for the modest amount of 900 US$ (it takes a week), which I turned down...
- I need to do more test since night has already fallen over Tokyo, but the first samples I took show no sign of any impact of these small scratches. I need to make sure that violent light doesn't result in any light scattering away from the scratches.

As of now, it looks like a happy ending, but the whole experience has changed forever my relationship with sensor cleaning.   

Considering that the D3 only gathered a very reasonnable amount of dust over some 10.000 to 15.000 exposures in 3 months, I guess that I'll give up completely on sensor cleaning myself and will have the Nikon guys to it for me once every 3 months. That is both going to be cheaper and safer than relying on cleaning solutions..

Living 6 minutes train away from the largest Nikon service center in Japan can be convenient...

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Silly question but can't they change the lowpass filter only?....for less money?
Marc
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 27, 2008, 12:32:09 am
Quote
Silly question but can't they change the lowpass filter only?....for less money?
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not silly at all, I asked the same to the Nikon person, but his answer was that they had no choice but to change the whole sensor.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: kbolin on March 27, 2008, 12:56:03 am
Bernard,

Maybe talk to someone like MaxMax or Lifepixel to replace the filter.  I don't know if Lifepixel does that but their service is remarkable and I highly recommend them.  They just converted my 5D to IR and I can't speak highly enough of them.  

www.lifepixel.com
www.maxmax.com

Hope that helps.

Kelly
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 27, 2008, 10:26:25 am
Quote
Bernard,

Maybe talk to someone like MaxMax or Lifepixel to replace the filter.  I don't know if Lifepixel does that but their service is remarkable and I highly recommend them.  They just converted my 5D to IR and I can't speak highly enough of them. 

www.lifepixel.com
www.maxmax.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Kelly,

I guess that I'll probably just try to forget about this waste of time right now.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: francois on March 27, 2008, 11:50:49 am
Quote
Ö
- They proposed a sensor swap for the modest amount of 900 US$ (it takes a week), which I turned down...
Ö
I friend of mine smeared his 5D sensor with a VD brush. He sent his Canon for cleaning to the Canon repair center (in Switzerland). It took 3 weeks and cost him $300Ö So $900 for a sensor replacement is reasonable.
If you don't see any ill effect caused by the micro-scratches, then I see no reason to do the swap.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: drjdmm on March 27, 2008, 03:15:06 pm
I too have had challanges with the visible dust. The company is very aware of the problem and promptly send me a new brush at no charge when I called (nikon D3/D300).

I just got it today and maybe I can avoid touching the oily parts next to the sensor. I do micro surgery for a living so I think if I have problems with the brush most people will also.

Art Morris at Birds are Art has a excellent and very inexpensive system for cleaning sensors that works better than any other system with the exception of the Green Machine vacum system.

http://www.birdsasart.com/lenspens.htm (http://www.birdsasart.com/lenspens.htm)

Sincerely
Dr. Joel Murphy
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 27, 2008, 03:19:10 pm
I have a lenspen sensorklear.  Looks nice.  Haven't had to use it since I bought it.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 27, 2008, 09:59:11 pm
Quote
Thank you all for your helpful answers.

Upon closer inspection, there are still many visible patterns on the sensor after a polonged additional session with Sensor clean.

I have decided to take my D3 to the Nikon service Center in Shinjuku this morning...

Cheers,
Bernard
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Nice - you can take the subway to Shinjuku and just get it done. Here in Toronto it's a car drive on one of the most congested and dangerous roads in North America forth and back, then a day or two later forth and back again because Canon has no while-u-wait sensor cleaning service and their service facility is hugely out of the way for anyone living in Toronto proper. Getting your sensor cleaned here exemplies the joint efficiencies of Canon service and Ontario infrastructure, but frankly, all that said, probably the safest way to get the sensor cleaned if its owner survives the traffic.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 28, 2008, 03:16:52 am
Quote
Nice - you can take the subway to Shinjuku and just get it done. Here in Toronto it's a car drive on one of the most congested and dangerous roads in North America forth and back, then a day or two later forth and back again because Canon has no while-u-wait sensor cleaning service and their service facility is hugely out of the way for anyone living in Toronto proper. Getting your sensor cleaned here exemplies the joint efficiencies of Canon service and Ontario infrastructure, but frankly, all that said, probably the safest way to get the sensor cleaned if its owner survives the traffic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, there are many downsides in living in Tokyo, but lack of convenience is not one of them.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: Panorama on March 29, 2008, 12:28:55 pm
Quote
Read it again.

He's asking for help and at the same time ranting about a company and a product.

I'm defending such company and GREAT product against such baseless remarks so others don't get the wrong idea based on his ignorance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Borat,

Give it a rest pal. if you're not a VD shill yet, you have a future job lined up...

personally, I think VD sucks too, but that's slightly OT for this thread...
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: daws on March 30, 2008, 12:13:26 am
For my 5D I tried the eclipse wet swabs and got smears. Switched to the sensorklear Lenspen in combination with the rocket blower, per the Lenspen instructions, and have had no dust or smear problems since. For me it's much quicker and easier to use than the swabs, too.
Title: Need help with sensor cleaning
Post by: BFoto on March 30, 2008, 08:17:32 pm
Same here on my 5D, VD left oily streaks that i had to get removed at a service centre. Never again....