Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: PdF on March 16, 2008, 07:47:04 am
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The new Mamiya - Phase One is announced. It can be used with Mamiya ZD backs, Phase one P+, and may be with other backs (?).
The new body accepts Mamiya 645 AF and 645 manual, Hasselblad V and Pentacon six/Kiev 6x6 lenses.
A new Capture One 4.1 Program (also for Mamiya ZD) converts RAW with lenses corrections habylities.
PdF (http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/camaras-para-formato-medio/mamiya-phase-one-2.html)
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Awaiting info on build-quality, robustness, dedicated AF button, reduced shutter release lag, sync speed, etc.
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The official announcement isn't tell Wednesday the 19th, but the info in that report is correct. They just jumped the gun.
I have an article on the subject coming on Wednesday with additional details.
Michael
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The official announcement isn't tell Wednesday the 19th, but the info in that report is correct. They just jumped the gun.
I have an article on the subject coming on Wednesday with additional details.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
P+ Only of the P series..
why would that be..
Hope there is a typo..
IF the P30 does not work, which I do not see why it would not.. I'll be quite upset!!
Snook
The only thing I care about is if they have leaf shutter lens or Faster sync in the body!!
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P+ Only of the P series..
why would that be..
Hope there is a typo..
IF the P30 does not work, which I do not see why it would not.. I'll be quite upset!!
Snook
The only thing I care about is if they have leaf shutter lens or Faster sync in the body!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
P series will be compatible too of course...
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V-series?! This is intriguing. Can't wait to hear more.
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I have an article on the subject coming on Wednesday with additional details.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great news, Michael! Can't wait!
Did you have a chance to test an actual camera? I guess we'll find out soon enough...
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You can already use all of those lenses on the current 645AFD bodies with adapters for Hassy V, or whatever lens you want to use.
And I also have converted ZD files in C1 4 already. Not to mention Leaf files, Hasselblad files, etc....
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You can already use all of those lenses on the current 645AFD bodies with adapters for Hassy V, or whatever lens you want to use.
And I also have converted ZD files in C1 4 already. Not to mention Leaf files, Hasselblad files, etc....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you've been able to get C1 v4 to convert Leaf Aptus files? (.mos)? do you need to do anything special?
jim
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Yes, it does require some work that most people would rather not do, but...
Step 1: Convert to DNG (whether it's Leaf/ZD/Hasselblad)
Step 2: Open the DNG in a Hex editor (like this free one: http://www.softcircuits.com/cygnus (http://www.softcircuits.com/cygnus) ) and you'll see in the editor it will say at the top, for example "LEAF Aptus 22 firmware version blahblah"....
Just replace "LEAF" with "LLLL" and C1 will open it. Replace "Hasselblad" with "HHHHHHHHHH" for Hassy files, and Mamiya with "MMMMMM" for the ZD, etc.
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Just replace "LEAF" with "LLLL" and C1 will open it. Replace "Hasselblad" with "HHHHHHHHHH" for Hassy files, and Mamiya with "MMMMMM" for the ZD, etc.
One of the strongest argument for using camera specific software instead of Adobe is the less than optimal color reproduction by the latter.
When going the above described route, the color conversion (from the camera's address space in sRGB or whatever) will occur the way Adobe's defined it, practically identical to the colors ACR's converts to. What is the point to go with C1 at all?
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No point really. If you like the way C1 resolves detail, along with its sharpening tools, then go right ahead. Actually, you don't have to use the Adobe color profile.
I recommend Leaf Capture for Leaf files over both C1 and Adobe ACR/Lightroom.
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Yes, just google "hex editor for mac". You should be able to find one quite easily.
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Will this camera take an Aptus back as well?
Dave
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Am I the only one thinking that there's nothing really new about this camera? The Pentacon adapter is the only news and sounds like a half-baked solution (lenses are all 10+ years old, no autofocus, is there any service still available? etc)
Will this camera take an Aptus back as well?
Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, the DB mount is not new.
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Foto-Z Is not that there is nothing new, the camera has not come out yet, we only have some details/ we don't know who the "European" lens maker will be, and I don't think it is Pentacon with an adapter an MF lenses do you? we don't know about the leaf lenses either.
We do know that the Hy6 traded wide angles for a rotating back so that is nothing new in the positive direction, and the H system is a closed architecture nothing positive as well.
The 645 AF/AFD is already much better than the other available systems that only a small increment will make it even more so ... but then again, this is only one more bias opinion and speculation while we wait for the information
Am I the only one thinking that there's nothing really new about this camera? The Pentacon adapter is the only news and sounds like a half-baked solution (lenses are all 10+ years old, no autofocus, is there any service still available? etc)
Yes, the DB mount is not new.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182084\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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We do know that the Hy6 traded wide angles for a rotating back so that is nothing new in the positive direction, and the H system is a closed architecture nothing positive as well.
Actually a rotating back makes no difference to the size of the image circle, or difficulty in making wide angle lenses. It is the decision to release lenses which still cover 6x6 which is making the wide angle difficult. I can only assume that larger sensors are coming and they are planning ahead.
The 645 AF/AFD is already much better than the other available systems
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well that is very much a matter of opinion
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[...The 645 AF/AFD is already much better than the other available systems...]
Well that is very much a matter of opinion
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just wait until they announce all available colors!
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We do know that the Hy6 traded wide angles for a rotating back so that is nothing new in the positive direction, and the H system is a closed architecture nothing positive as well.
The 645 AF/AFD is already much better than the other available systems that only a small increment will make it even more so ... but then again, this is only one more bias opinion and speculation while we wait for the information
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
"H system is a closed architecture nothing positive"?
On the contrary, there many positive aspects to the "closed system architecture". More critical focus due to focus adapation and known placement of the sensor in relation to the camera, automatic correction of lens distortion, apochromatic aberrations, and vignetting, etc. My customers find these aspects extremely positive.
There is much positive news on the Hy6 as well. It accepts digitally adjusted Schneider AF lenses, employs a fast and responsive AF system, provides ergonomically advanced camera controls, and will continue to benefit from digital/camera integration into the future.
While I think the Mamiya AFD is a fine camera - I am a Mamiya reseller, and the Aptus 65 with free Mamiya AFDII is a great value right now - let's be honest, it's always been the "value" choice, not the preferred solution. While H2 cameras were in production, they outsold Mamiya cameras by more than 3 to 1 in the US, despite the higher price.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Will this camera take an Aptus back as well?
Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
According to the "pre-released" info on the PhaseOne forum (before this leak), the camera is the same back mount as the current 645 AFD II...so yes. When I bought my P20+ back in the 645 mount, they guaranteed me that the back would "just work" on the new camera.
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Am I the only one thinking that there's nothing really new about this camera?
No. We really need more specs, because if this is all it is, then it's nothing new. The "European" lenses are actually old lenses that can be used with an adapter, much like Canon users use Leica, Contax/Zeiss, Hasselblad, Olympus, Pentax, and more with an adapter on their bodies.
I never thought a camera company would encourage the use of other branded lenses with an adapter on their own camera body.
Need more info...
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No. We really need more specs, because if this is all it is, then it's nothing new. The "European" lenses are actually old lenses that can be used with an adapter, much like Canon users use Leica, Contax/Zeiss, Hasselblad, Olympus, Pentax, and more with an adapter on their bodies.
I never thought a camera company would encourage the use of other branded lenses with an adapter on their own camera body.
Need more info...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, 'cos if it's nothing new, it's going to be huge disappointment. So, was the talk about leaf shutter lenses just 'smoke and mirrors' - I hope not!
J
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Yeah, 'cos if it's nothing new, it's going to be huge disappointment. So, was the talk about leaf shutter lenses just 'smoke and mirrors' - I hope not!
J
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182216\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm beginning to this this was an unfounded rumour. In order for this camera to be able to use leaf shutter lenses, it would be necessary for the focal plane shutter to be able to be locked open, and the flash sync taken from the leaf shutter, as well as a modification to the lens mount to facilitate the leaf shutter control. Why would these new features be missing from the release? Perhaps the Pentacon lenses are the rumoured 'european' lenses and that's all the news. I could be wrong but I just don't see Mamiya pulling off a whole new set of lenses. The existing lenses from european manufacturers are 6x6 so it would not be a simple matter of taking existing designs and attaching different mounts.
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Wednesday is not too far away for all to be revealed.
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I'm beginning to this this was an unfounded rumour. In order for this camera to be able to use leaf shutter lenses, it would be necessary for the focal plane shutter to be able to be locked open, and the flash sync taken from the leaf shutter, as well as a modification to the lens mount to facilitate the leaf shutter control. Why would these new features be missing from the release? Perhaps the Pentacon lenses are the rumoured 'european' lenses and that's all the news. I could be wrong but I just don't see Mamiya pulling off a whole new set of lenses. The existing lenses from european manufacturers are 6x6 so it would not be a simple matter of taking existing designs and attaching different mounts.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, my thinking has been "Why would they be re-releasing old lens designs as D models and introducing new quite expensive designs such as the 28mm, only to replace them shortly after with a line of leaf shutter lenses?"
But hey who knows! It will be interesting to find out at least
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"It is the decision to release lenses which still cover 6x6 which is making the wide angle difficult."
There are two things regarding the decision to use 6x6 lenses. One is the image circle. As an example we can see the difference in FX and DX lenses from Nikon.
FX lenses operating on DX sensors are bigger, more expensive and less efficient than similar FX on FX sensor. Hy6 decided to go "FX" (66) when sensors are DX (645) and other systems are DX-DX (645-645)
Fine, they can do two things a) wait to hit the lottery with FX (66) sensor and/or make, say, a 28mm DX -- note that I use DX and FX just so that I can get understood --
But ther is when the second factor will apply, that is: the larger distance from "film" plane to placement lens element that has to clear the movement of the mirror.
In other words, a Hy6 28 has to be more retro focus than the equivalent 645 equivalent --even it it is a reduced image circle or DX--
If you see the size and cost of the two reflex 28mm lenses in production you can tell how difficult it already is (for 645) to formulate optics that perform at the higher than film expected standards of 49 mp backs.
If you say "Actually a rotating back makes no difference to the size of the image circle" then it means that having a FX format is even more of a gamble -- because the designers could have gone 645 AND produce a rotating back -- since there is no sign in the horizon of Kodak or Dalsa sensor appearing any time soon on 6x6 size.
But suppose they one is developed, Sinar has to make a new back for the larger sensor. You have to take in to consideration that a 6x6 sensor will not replace 6x4.5 format, it would have to fight against it to get adopters, which brings us to the square format. I personally like it, but it is not the "standard" proportion but more like a station wagon, or hatchback -in car analogy-
So, the Hy6 will steel missing wide angle lenses --unless you upgrade to the new square format-- The high cost of producing the larger sensor back will have to be absorbed by a very small potential user base and we don't even know if existing lenses will be good for a full frame sensor since none exist today to run tests.
Regarding Steves comment, I think he is correct in considering Mamiya the value choice, but remember that not so long ago in the film era Hasselblad was the king of medium format until the RZ came and became the choice of a large number of the top photographers not only as the value work horse but also as a better camera because of the rotating back, bellows focusing, leaf lenses and size and proportion of the 6x7 format. Phase One used to have the lion share of the digital backs, so the two together should not be dismissed before the race has even started... i think
"H system is a closed architecture nothing positive"?
On the contrary, there many positive aspects to the "closed system architecture". More critical focus due to focus adapation and known placement of the sensor in relation to the camera, automatic correction of lens distortion, apochromatic aberrations, and vignetting, etc. My customers find these aspects extremely positive.
There is much positive news on the Hy6 as well. It accepts digitally adjusted Schneider AF lenses, employs a fast and responsive AF system, provides ergonomically advanced camera controls, and will continue to benefit from digital/camera integration into the future.
While I think the Mamiya AFD is a fine camera - I am a Mamiya reseller, and the Aptus 65 with free Mamiya AFDII is a great value right now - let's be honest, it's always been the "value" choice, not the preferred solution. While H2 cameras were in production, they outsold Mamiya cameras by more than 3 to 1 in the US, despite the higher price.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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But ther is when the second factor will apply, that is: the larger distance from "film" plane to placement lens element that has to clear the movement of the mirror.
In other words, a Hy6 28 has to be more retro focus than the equivalent 645 equivalent --even it it is a reduced image circle or DX--
If you see the size and cost of the two reflex 28mm lenses in production you can tell how difficult it already is (for 645) to formulate optics that perform at the higher than film expected standards of 49 mp backs.
Very interesting, I hadn't thought about this, but its the depth of the sensor that dictates flange to focal distance. Looking at the size difference between M645 and an RZ gives some indication of the problem.
Doesn't the larger size of the AFi help though? In terms of exit pupil size and so on. I wonder if there is a tradeoff between size of lens and the flange-focal distance so that things are not as bad for physically larger cameras as you think.
(I still need a 5x4 sensor if anyone is listening by the way - grin)
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"H system is a closed architecture nothing positive"?
On the contrary, there many positive aspects to the "closed system architecture". More critical focus due to focus adapation and known placement of the sensor in relation to the camera, automatic correction of lens distortion, apochromatic aberrations, and vignetting, etc. My customers find these aspects extremely positive.
I still disagree with you here, focus adaptation, known placement of the sensor, automatic lens correction, CA, vignetting can all be done with an open architecture system as well.
It doesn't need to be closed for that, the CF line is an excellent proof of that.
Yes, I do agree all these things are very nice to have and I am very glad that I can use them, at least most of them with my CF. I hope to be able to use even a bit more functionality with my CF in the near future.
A closed architecture is there because of financial reasons mostly which in itself might not be a bad reason but I dislike it when it is still being sold as if it delivers a better system directly. It might give a better system indirectly because it will leave the company in a better financial state in which it has more financial room to deliver better products.
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I still disagree with you here, focus adaptation, known placement of the sensor, automatic lens correction, CA, vignetting can all be done with an open architecture system as well.
It doesn't need to be closed for that, the CF line is an excellent proof of that.
Yes, I do agree all these things are very nice to have and I am very glad that I can use them, at least most of them with my CF. I hope to be able to use even a bit more functionality with my CF in the near future.
A closed architecture is there because of financial reasons mostly which in itself might not be a bad reason but I dislike it when it is still being sold as if it delivers a better system directly. It might give a better system indirectly because it will leave the company in a better financial state in which it has more financial room to deliver better products.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182338\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Advanced focus adaption (like Ultra Focus II) cannot be accomplished with a non-integrated system - at least not the way they're doing it, which is really what matters. The CF can take advantage of DAC level I, II & III, and many other H3D-type of features. But there are several it doesn't take advantage of and potentially some which haven't yet been implemented.
I agree, the cost savings certainly have to be a benefit - some of that has been passed onto consumers, perhaps some of that also enables the purchase of reasonable LCD displays like the 3" display on the H3DII.
I still maintain that getting the camera body involved with the digital magazine will ultimately yield ease of development for further improvements in the product compared to a non-integrated developmental approach - Canon and Nikon have certainly demonstrated this.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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with pie opening in a few hours, whats the best site(most updated) to get info on the new phase/mamiya? i hope its a cool camera.
paul
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with pie opening in a few hours, whats the best site(most updated) to get info on the new phase/mamiya? i hope its a cool camera.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael said he would post an article on Wednesday (I presume Wed morning), so I think Luminous Landscape's What's New page is probably the best place. From what he's said, it seems he has insider knowledge of this.
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Michael said he would post an article on Wednesday (I presume Wed morning), so I think Luminous Landscape's What's New page is probably the best place. From what he's said, it seems he has insider knowledge of this.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=182466\")
We have a dealer web conference at 7:00pm tonight. As soon as we get the info it will be up on our website @ www.captureintegration.com
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
lance@captureintegration.com
Lance
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We have a dealer web conference at 7:00pm tonight. As soon as we get the info it will be up on our website @ www.captureintegration.com
You're my hero :-) I assume that's 7 pm eastern time?
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You're my hero :-) I assume that's 7 pm eastern time?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes
Lance
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Yes
Lance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You guys are so inconsiderate. You expect me to sit up to Midnight GMT????
(HaHa!)
Jon
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The announcement is embargoed until 10 JST Wednesday, which is 9pm EDT Tuesday, which is when my write-up will be placed online. In other words, this evening.
Michael
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[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=182498\")
Well the info is up on [a href=\"http://www.phaseone.com]http://www.phaseone.com[/url] and also on our website @ http://www.captureintegratrion.com (http://www.captureintegration.com)
New Phase One Body
* Improved shutter speed range 1/4000th - 60 minutes
* New AF motor with 3 AF points
* New digital board
* Improved dial, shutter, grip ergonomics, AF lever (for AF mode selection)
* Ready for 120 frames per minute
* Ready for leaf shutters, expected 2008
* Value Added Warranty: 3 year or 300,000 actuations (body and lens)
* Classic Warranty: 1 year or 100,000 actuations (body and lens)
New 80mm F2.8 AF lens
* Extremely low chromatic aberration
* Steel barrel
* New ergonomic design
New Value Added Case
* Fits a laptop
* Has roller wheels and handle
* Room for body and two lenses
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5701 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
lance@captureintegration.com
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The new 80mm looks like it has an improvement - the Auto/Manual push/pull.
Maybe the body AF is a bit better ?
I guess when the leaf-shutter lenses arrive the studio crowd will be markedly happier.
Edmund
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* Ready for 120 frames per second
Wow!
That is one fast camera!
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Any word on prices and when I will be getting mine in the mail.
JP
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im really dissapointed.
its about time they replaced the crappy plastic std lens (now just the 45 and 55 to go).
but its just an afd2 with a few tweaks. it does trigger the leaf shutter of the v series lenses, so the adaptor isnt new news at all.
the afd2 didnt come close (imho) to the build quaility of either the h1/2 or hy6/afi, and the phase hasnt really improved on it.
paul
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All I'd want is less shutter lag, faster AF and a fast eg. F2 lens - the rest of the Mamiya is actually fairly ok, the finder is good enough for MF, nothing drives me crazy and apart from some recurring metering errors there are few surprises when using it.
When I got the thing I was doubtful, but after seeing batteries last a month at a time, focus better than a Canon, and a seriously sharp standard lens, I am starting to wonder whether the advantages of the Hassy aren't just perceived rather than real.
Edmund
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I agree faster AF and sharper lenses would make it pretty much perfect for me
I'm not complaining until I see the price.
I think it should be 4-5 grand with the lens tops.
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Any mention of the viewfinder?
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this is a good link - http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=dwrwf (http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=dwrwf)
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I think the service plan on the camera is a plus. 3 years or 300,000 shutter actuations.
I just don't want to have to go through my dealer to get the camera serviced. I want to be able to go on the website and set up a service ticket to send it in myself.
JP
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this is a good link - http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=dwrwf (http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=dwrwf)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe Phase will slap a decent BIG screen on their backs, and liveview ? That's an improvement to our photo lives !
Edmund
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although im dissapointed...
i am impressed by the extra focus points, i wonder how far apart they are?
and the grip seems to have been improved - looking at the top shots.
paul
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although im dissapointed...
i am impressed by the extra focus points, i wonder how far apart they are?
and the grip seems to have been improved - looking at the top shots.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hope it is faster motor as well. I don't need focus points that are just as slow as the focus now.
Does AF work with Hasselblad Lenses. Also I don't understand whcih other lenses work with this camera.
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There is focus confirmation with all manual lenses. You have to focus wide open, then stop down... like what I do with Leica/Zeiss lenses on Canon.
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Pentacon Six lenses = Hartblei?
So, a tilt shift, a fish eye, a 45mm wide angle, 3 shift lenses, a normal 80mm f/2.8 lens, and a 600mm f/8 mirror lens?
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Looks like the AFD III is going to be somewhere around 4,169 dollars. And around 1,000 for the 80mm and the new 45-90 around 5,000 dollars. Of course this is yen converted to US.
And the 150mm 2.8 around 2500.00 us
http://www.mamiya.co.jp/ (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/)
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If you wade thru all the links in the Phase One documentation, you find details on the new Mamiya 150mm f/2.8 lens and the new 45-90 lens.
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There are more news on www.mamiya.co.jp Pictures of the new lenses among other things...
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There are more news on www.mamiya.co.jp Pictures of the new lenses among other things...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
New software too, see rob galbraith.
Edmund
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Looks like the AFD III is going to be somewhere around 4,169 dollars. And around 1,000 for the 80mm and the new 45-90 around 5,000 dollars. Of course this is yen converted to US.
And the 150mm 2.8 around 2500.00 us
http://www.mamiya.co.jp/ (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/)
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New software too, see rob galbraith.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
is that the "pro" version or just an update to handle mamiya zd files? its not that clear.
paul
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The bad thing is that it is not a camera made from scratch
The good thing is also precisely that. It is the opposite of vaporware. A somewhat improved AFD, that is already being marketed by Phase One and Mamiya and is ready for market as we speak.
It is leaf lens ready, so glass is probably going to be made from scratch.
The no show of "European lens maker" is disappointing, unless I missed something...
I think that this is a conservative incremental move for a long term relationship Mamiya Phase One, (the trickle down for existing owners is may be, for example, Mamiya specific lens correction on the next Capture One 4 PRO program).
I hope that the two companies make good use of the momentum that this new camera brings.
By the way, can we truly call this "a new system" can we? probably, a new re branded improved model would be more accurate.
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By the way, can we truly call this "a new system" can we? probably, a new re branded improved model would be more accurate.
I agree. I would've preferred a 645 version of the RZ67, with rotating back, instead of the 35mm style of the 645AF series, but oh well.
Why does Phase One call this a "revolutionary camera system"... lol.
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I must say I'm slightly disappointed. I mean it's a great camera, and I'm sure the improvements are real and beneficial, I was just hoping for a "surprise" or two. The new lenses look great though, and the fact that leaf shutter lenses will be out later this year is good news. I'm looking forward to some hands-on reviews.
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I must say I'm slightly disappointed. I mean it's a great camera, and I'm sure the improvements are real and beneficial, I was just hoping for a "surprise" or two. The new lenses look great though, and the fact that leaf shutter lenses will be out later this year is good news. I'm looking forward to some hands-on reviews.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Perfectly put. Slightly disappointed. I was hoping for a camera that looked completely different than anything out there. But I guess this is all they could afford. Multiple lens mount is pretty nice though.
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It's actually pretty good news, I think. Promising new lenses, some needed and welcome improvements to the AFD body. If you turn off the marketing hype, you see solid movement forward. And I agree with Leonardo that a conservative improvement of an existing design certainly has it's positives. While I don't sell Phase One, I also feel it potentially marks the beginning of a beneficial relationship that will help to keep the medium format world a reasonably crowded one - another positive.
Essentially it will be welcomed by those who fundamentally like the existing camera. I don't think it's likely to switch anyone who already has a bias against it. I'm looking forward to selling Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar digital backs with this new camera. Umm, that is, selling them with the Mamiya branded version, of course...
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Essentially it will be welcomed by those who fundamentally like the existing camera. I don't think it's likely to switch anyone who already has a bias against it. I'm looking forward to selling Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar digital backs with this new camera. Umm, that is, selling them with the Mamiya branded version, of course...
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Steve,
I'd be glad to sell you the Phase One version if you like.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=182584\")
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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A good system is getting better. What's not to like about that? It doesn't meet everyone's hopes and expectations, but that's always true of a new system.
Everybody has been asking for additional AF points, and that's what we got. Supposedly, the AF will be somewhat faster too. That's certainly a good thing.
The 45-90/4.5 and 150/2.8 are now official. Combined with the 75-150, the 28, and the new 80, we have a very attractive set of lenses. Certainly more choices than were available a year ago. And if I read Michael's essay correctly, the rumored leaf lenses are still to come, and are more than just the Hassy V and Pentacon (sp?) lenses.
We're getting lens correction in the next Capture One. That's certainly a good thing.
Michael suggests a follow-on body with more aggressive improvements is already in work. Sounds interesting.
All in all, I have to say I'm moderately pleased.
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I'm so disappointed that I'm going to kill myself tonight.
Ed
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For the disappointed and the ones that want to be surprised or see nothing new ... wait for 1-Q 09///
""As for the future – the word is that Phase One and Mamiya are working together on a next-generation camera body that, (and I'm guessing here) might still be 12 – 18 months away. The reasoning behind introducing the Phase One camera based on a rebadged Mamiya 645 now is to establish the brand association with camera bodies; ensure that there is a committed body for current and future digital back sales, and establish distribution of cameras and lenses through existing Phase One dealers and VARs. Then, when the next-generation advanced body comes along in (likely) Q1 2009, everything will be in place. The impression that I got from interviewing Phase One executives is that they are taking this system and its ongoing and long-term evolution very seriously indeed.
Phase has announced that it plans to develop on its own, and with other manufacturers, additional lenses for the platform, and this is to include some leaf shutter lenses, which pros shooting studio flash really need. These leaf shutter lenses will not be replacements for the existing lens line, but rather, in addition to.///
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...phase-645.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/phase-645.shtml)
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Can someone please explain the Vmount adapter
Its stop down only ?
Leaf shutter not used ?
ps looking forward to auctioning or using my 24 fisheye
And check out the used prices of getting a back up AFD body - I assume you could still take pitures with that
S
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it is certainly not a revolution but it sounds like a good evolution.
At the end it's a strong system : lenses, leaf shutter lenses, body with almost all that is needed beside optional viewfinder, software integration, AF, several points now, could be slow but it's dead on ...
not too much weak point.
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Much fuss about very little, then.
Guess there'll be many now deciding (whether) to wait and see if they can come up with something really innovative in 2009. For myself, I need a view camera far more than I need this small incremental upgrade to my existing camera.
I wonder have they compromised sales of this AFD3, by announcing something better coming in 2009?
J
EDIT: and especially when we get to see pricing for UK, it'll be very unlikely it's worth upgrading to.
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Much fuss about very little, then.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you're right
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its only $5,000 us with the 80mm lens. This is a very reasonable price, and I can't see anyone shooting with a $20,000+ back not willing to make the upgrade from $2,000 used AFDII and 80mm lens (thats what I got mine for on ebay 6 months ago) to the $5,000 phase one camera. I am just relieved that it is not in the 8,000 dollar range, which is what I was expecting.
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Much fuss about very little, then.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Very little maybe but very little can make all the difference.
If they get some nice leaf lenses out it will be a fantastic system IMO
with lenses avaiable from maunually 24 Fish, 28, 55 rise fall through to 500 odd
many at stupid low used prices for now
And leaf lenses and multpoint AF
Lensewise
The 28 makes it 'beat' the hy6 system
The rise/fall, fish and longs make it 'beat' the H system
Multipoint AF makes it beat all systems (if it is any good)
(and backup bodies also for stupid low prices)
SMM
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from the mamiya jap site it looks like there is something about the ZD back...
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its only $5,000 us with the 80mm lens. This is a very reasonable price, and I can't see anyone shooting with a $20,000+ back not willing to make the upgrade from $2,000 used AFDII and 80mm lens (thats what I got mine for on ebay 6 months ago) to the $5,000 phase one camera. I am just relieved that it is not in the 8,000 dollar range, which is what I was expecting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Upgrade ? What for ?
Edmund
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Upgrade ? What for ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
leaf lenses - multipoint AF
S
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Upgrade ? What for ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
From LL Release
As for the Phase One 645 (and Mamiya AFD III), the camera has seen a lot of updates and revisions from the current AFDII, many of them internal. Immediately obvious is that the top prism-mounted Metering and Exposure Compensation dials are no longer there, replaced by programmable electronic controls on the LCD panel. The intention here is to create a more fluid and integrated user interface.
There is a new integrated, more ergonomic hand grip made of molded silicon, apparently with an easier to grip surface. The autofocus system is also updated, and is claimed to be more accurate than before and noticeably faster.
A new mirror dampening mechanism has been added that is claimed to eliminate the need for mirror lock up. But to Phase One and Mamiya's credit they have also added a new mirror lock up / release capability on the grip, so user like me will likely be satisfied, regardless.
Apparently there is a new 80mm lens being made available that has a better "feel", and the level of integration between the lenses, the body and digital backs has been enhanced considerably.
Phase has announced that it plans to develop on its own, and with other manufacturers, additional lenses for the platform, and this is to include some leaf shutter lenses, which pros shooting studio flash really need. These leaf shutter lenses will not be replacements for the existing lens line, but rather, in addition to.
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Upgrade ? I'm happy I have a working setup, although my Phase P45+ seems to be dropping pixel columns now and again. Why should I risk another camera and other teething problems ?
I've more than paid my dues.
The main function of this camera, in fact, is to reassure Phase buyers that there will continue to be one camera in production that can take their back. Erase that - that there is exactly one SLR camera that can take their back -I don't want to be disrespectful to Alpa, Silvestri, Cambo and other purveyors of precision mechanics.
Edmund
From LL Release
As for the Phase One 645 (and Mamiya AFD III), the camera has seen a lot of updates and revisions from the current AFDII, many of them internal. Immediately obvious is that the top prism-mounted Metering and Exposure Compensation dials are no longer there, replaced by programmable electronic controls on the LCD panel. The intention here is to create a more fluid and integrated user interface.
There is a new integrated, more ergonomic hand grip made of molded silicon, apparently with an easier to grip surface. The autofocus system is also updated, and is claimed to be more accurate than before and noticeably faster.
A new mirror dampening mechanism has been added that is claimed to eliminate the need for mirror lock up. But to Phase One and Mamiya's credit they have also added a new mirror lock up / release capability on the grip, so user like me will likely be satisfied, regardless.
Apparently there is a new 80mm lens being made available that has a better "feel", and the level of integration between the lenses, the body and digital backs has been enhanced considerably.
Phase has announced that it plans to develop on its own, and with other manufacturers, additional lenses for the platform, and this is to include some leaf shutter lenses, which pros shooting studio flash really need. These leaf shutter lenses will not be replacements for the existing lens line, but rather, in addition to.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Upgrade ? I'm happy I have a working setup,
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then dont upgrade.
I cant see it being worth it for a few minor upgrades
If however you have specific annoyance with your current setup (flash synch for example) then it will be worth it
S
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I would still rather shoot w/ a digiback on an RZ67. that camera feels so much better in my hands than the afd. the only thing really negative about the rz would be not having wide enough lens.....maybe someone can convince mamiya to actually make that 43mm for the rz that was rumored for so long.
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so no AF leaf shutter lenses (yet...) = manual focus only for high flash sync? or am I stoned?
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I just don't get the Pentacon/Hartblei business.
What is the point of this? Who is asking for this?
I have the 47 SR from Hartblei, but its strictly for a 'bit of fun'
It just so happens that when I bought it I immediately picked up a job where it paid for itself but that was more luck than judgement.
And it came with a Mamiya mount, so no need for an adapter.
If they could put some better quality glass in that mechanism it would be fantastic, its a lovely piece of engineering...
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Then dont upgrade.
I cant see it being worth it for a few minor upgrades
If however you have specific annoyance with your current setup (flash synch for example) then it will be worth it
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It looks like a decent first step, but once again just a variation of a present theme.
I think the proof will be in the lens line and if there are new lenses coming online then they should get to market fast and they should be strong and robust, same with the build quality and elimation of the shutter lag.
One of the things I like about the phase back is the build quality and stability of the system and the new camera should reflect this. The back feels upscale, so should the camera.
The previous afdII was not necessarilly a bad camera but never felt like real quality, even the autofocus of the few that I tried made a lot of noise, which I hope is addressed with this camera.
I still don't understand why all of these newer medium format camera do not have a right angle grip and shutter release. Even a clip on accessory would be better than having to reach around all day on a long shoot.
Once again, the viability will be in the lenses. If they are solid, fast and have good auto and manual focus then they will be accepted, but the feel and quality must be there.
Now if Phase can get this to market and make sure it is solid and long lasting, they should get it into rental houses with a full lens line as soon as possible.
Since the price is very attractive if I was Phase/Mamiya, the next thing I would turn my attention to (like first thing in the morning) is the RZwith the digital interface. I would rework the finder so it had greater magnification and reposition the blades to fit the 645 (or smaller) crop so that the view is accurate.
I don't think you can over estimate how many working pros loved shooting with the RZ, especially beauty and portraits and how many RZ lenses are sitting on a shelf waiting for use or realize how strong a selling point it would be to bundle two cameras, one for studio, one for location at the same price as the compeitions one system.
At least the new camera is black.
JR
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I still don't understand why all of these newer medium format camera do not have a right angle grip and shutter release. Even a clip on accessory would be better than having to reach around all day on a long shoot.
james, i agree.
i cant understand why they dont make a accessory grip. a 5d has one?? if you hold a camera vertical on long days, this is a nice feature.
and its another way mamiya can make easy money, and it would make it look a lot cooler than the competition.
they should be learning off canon and contax.
paul
(http://www.pauljonesimages.com/variouspics/fccam.jpg)
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I still don't understand why all of these newer medium format camera do not have a right angle grip and shutter release. Even a clip on accessory would be better than having to reach around all day on a long shoot.
james, i agree.
i cant understand why they dont make a accessory grip. a 5d has one?? if you hold a camera vertical on long days, this is a nice feature.
and its another way mamiya can make easy money, and it would make it look a lot cooler than the competition.
they should be learning off canon and contax.
paul
(http://www.pauljonesimages.com/variouspics/fccam.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I love this. Usability is one thing, impression is another.
Your design of this grip along with a big matte box and now you have one professional looking and working camera.
Add to it a useable right angle finder for low work, that 28mm lens, resurrect the 300mm 2.8 and throw in a few leaf shutters and for the price this could be a very good system.
JR
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Hi
I have not posted much these days. I think this is great news for MFD. The new body has some improvements or you can wait for the new body coming in a year. They said a new body in March & they delivered. Nice new lenses 45-90, 150 2.8, & the 80 with the AF switch. Besides the H3D ,Mamiya have a 28mm lens. There are new leaf shutter lenses coming through Phase. It is not a closed system & through the MAC group in the US Leaf will support this camera. But I do think it is time that the MFD makers up the MP count. Canon is at 22 mp with a great lens lineup & Nikon are making moves with there D3. Too me it is good news & Mamiya has been very active in the past year.
Denis
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I still don't understand why all of these newer medium format camera do not have a right angle grip and shutter release. Even a clip on accessory would be better than having to reach around all day on a long shoot.
paul
this is the SEX, LOL
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I still don't understand why all of these newer medium format camera do not have a right angle grip and shutter release. Even a clip on accessory would be better than having to reach around all day on a long shoot.
james, i agree.
i cant understand why they dont make a accessory grip. a 5d has one?? if you hold a camera vertical on long days, this is a nice feature.
and its another way mamiya can make easy money, and it would make it look a lot cooler than the competition.
they should be learning off canon and contax.
paul
(http://www.pauljonesimages.com/variouspics/fccam.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Great mock up & maybe Mamiya will listen & take note.
Denis
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Hi
Great mock up & maybe Mamiya will listen & take note.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
who here would pay 700- 1000(is that the amount the contax grip went for?) for and accessory grip like this that has all the buttons and holds a rechargable battery?
im sure this is a relatively simple peice of design, as long as there was the forethought of putting the contacts on the main body. im sure there would a hell of a lot better profit margin in it than selling lenses.
paul
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its only $5,000 us with the 80mm lens. This is a very reasonable price, and I can't see anyone shooting with a $20,000+ back not willing to make the upgrade from $2,000 used AFDII and 80mm lens (thats what I got mine for on ebay 6 months ago) to the $5,000 phase one camera. I am just relieved that it is not in the 8,000 dollar range, which is what I was expecting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think your argument is completely self defeating. Your reasons above are exactly why I wouldn't consider upgrading my AFD2 right now. (I might change my mind after absorbing the relevance of the extra lenses available)
Lastly, UK pricing is likely to be way above US pricing levels. If it's $5000 with you it's likely to be (equivalent) $7000-8000 with us.
I consider that good advice would be to step aside from all the marketing BS from Phase One, and ask yourself seriously, what is it going to do that my current one can't do, and is that extra function or non-functional advantage worth the investment? Especially in the light of a new camera coming next year.
(Remember the way that a certain large software company sha@fted everybody for years, bringing out an new OS which was just a small increment on the last one? They made a fortune from people upgrading every time)
This 'new' camera, I think, is just 'carrot dangling' to keep people interested in this line of cameras, while they develop their next major step up next year. It's a valid marketing
strategy, as far as the shareholders are concerned, but plays on a range wants / needs of potential buyers, not really related to it's improvement over the current model.
Each to his own! Maybe 1/4000 with still significant shutter lag and slower (if accurate) AF is valuable to some.
Now, where can I get a back that does 120 frames a minute?
Jon
EDIT: I hope the way I've put some things here doesn't give offence. I'm just to trying to put points fairly bluntly as I see it, from my perception. No disrespect is intended to the opinion of others. (I guess I'm not terribly happy with Phase One atm, after the way they treated me at a recent photographic trade show I was at.)
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Very little maybe but very little can make all the difference.
If they get some nice leaf lenses out it will be a fantastic system IMO
with lenses avaiable from maunually 24 Fish, 28, 55 rise fall through to 500 odd
many at stupid low used prices for now
And leaf lenses and multpoint AF
Lensewise
The 28 makes it 'beat' the hy6 system
The rise/fall, fish and longs make it 'beat' the H system
Multipoint AF makes it beat all systems (if it is any good)
(and backup bodies also for stupid low prices)
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Perhaps you're right, Sam, but (rightly) there are a lot of 'if's' there.
Jon
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does anyone know the x-sync speed of the AFDIII?
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Not sure if everyone has seen the new Value Added Case. It is pretty slick!
[attachment=5663:attachment]
Also wanted to give everyone a heads up that the PhaseOne promos that are running right now with the Free Mamiya Cameras and Lenses is definitely ending at the end of March (more info click (http://www.captureintegration.com/solutions/phaseonemamiya/)here).
We have not received all the pricing yet, but from what I can see is the bundle of the P45+,Mamiya 645AFDII,80mm and 28mm lens that is priced at $29990 (classic) and $32,990 (value add) + $2500 new camera platform swap out price, is still going to be considerably less than if you wait until after March 31, because of the Free 28mm lens that has a value of $5300.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
lance@captureintegration.com
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Not sure if everyone has seen the new Value Added Case. It is pretty slick!
[attachment=5663:attachment]
Also wanted to give everyone a heads up that the PhaseOne promos that are running right now with the Free Mamiya Cameras and Lenses is definitely ending at the end of March (more info click (http://www.captureintegration.com/solutions/phaseonemamiya/)here).
We have not received all the pricing yet, but from what I can see is the bundle of the P45+,Mamiya 645AFDII,80mm and 28mm lens that is priced at $29990 (classic) and $32,990 (value add) + $2500 new camera platform swap out price, is still going to be considerably less than if you wait until after March 31, because of the Free 28mm lens that has a value of $5300.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
lance@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182674\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So, everything to suck people into buying now, for the small upgrade. Do you not think it inappropriate to use this forum as a blatant selling platform for your products?
The 'for sale' forum would be a better place to put this, wouldn't it?
I note that Capture Integration (while being a great dealer) treat this forum completely differently from other people who have associations with particular equipment makes (no names mentioned). Others talk much more about the strengths (and sometime weaknesses) of that equipment, without trying on all this hard sell stuff. They let the products, and those who use them, sell the product.
Frankly, for one, I'm delighted when Capture Integration provide testing results, or links to informational articles (which is mostly what Chris does) but I'm beginning to find all the marketing by other members of the crew a bit distasteful and inappropriate.
There; got that off my chest.
Jon
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Jon,
Give the guy a break, he's just being ever so slightly over-enthusiastic ....
And he is being very informative re. pricing.
The dealers tend to be refreshingly factual compared with the marketing guys who push out the press releases -
Edmund
So, everything to suck people into buying now, for the small upgrade. Do you not think it inappropriate to use this forum as a blatant selling platform for your products?
The 'for sale' forum would be a better place to put this, wouldn't it?
I note that Capture Integration (while being a great dealer) treat this forum completely differently from other people who have associations with particular equipment makes (no names mentioned). Others talk much more about the strengths (and sometime weaknesses) of that equipment, without trying on all this hard sell stuff. They let the products, and those who use them, sell the product.
Frankly, for one, I'm delighted when Capture Integration provide testing results, or links to informational articles (which is mostly what Chris does) but I'm beginning to find all the marketing by other members of the crew a bit distasteful and inappropriate.
There; got that off my chest.
Jon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Please hold the horses on tha vertical grip... It would add weight and bulk in my camera pack and I think is not good thing. AFD with lens and back is already heavy... wish they would reduce weight instead!
AFDIII / PhaseOne AFD have news of good improvements; not DSLR high tech ones but features that are useful for my photography:
* Faster and more accurate AF
* Integrated, more ergonomic hand grip (wish as good as F100... but maybe not...)
* New mirror damping mechanism that is claimed to eliminate need for mirror lock up
* Added mirror lock up / release capability on grip
* Improved dial, shutter, grip ergonomics, AF lever (for AF mode selection)
Negative is that price is somewhat higher than AFDII...
Regards
Anders
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I agree with you Edmund, he's certainly being over enthusiastic.
But the pricing is completely irrelevant to the many, many of us who don't live in the USA. This is a world forum, not a US forum, n'est pas?
I also agree that the dealers can be a lot more frank than the marketing guys, and I pointed out my complete approval of most of what Capture Integration posts. I still think that Lance's post just went too far. I'd have much less of a problem with indicating promo prices, and referring to the details being available on their site, as has happened a number of times before. Chris does that in a very acceptable and 'unpressurising' way. Perhaps part of my difficulty is cultural, a difference in between US and here.
Do you disagree with my observations about how Capture Integration treat this site, compared with others?
Jon
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So, everything to suck people into buying now, for the small upgrade. Do you not think it inappropriate to use this forum as a blatant selling platform for your products?
The 'for sale' forum would be a better place to put this, wouldn't it?
I note that Capture Integration (while being a great dealer) treat this forum completely differently from other people who have associations with particular equipment makes (no names mentioned). Others talk much more about the strengths (and sometime weaknesses) of that equipment, without trying on all this hard sell stuff. They let the products, and those who use them, sell the product.
Frankly, for one, I'm delighted when Capture Integration provide testing results, or links to informational articles (which is mostly what Chris does) but I'm beginning to find all the marketing by other members of the crew a bit distasteful and inappropriate.
There; got that off my chest.
Jon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jon,
I think that information such as what was posted is useful to some folks that may be on the fence about make a decision on which way to go, saving over $5300 is pretty substantial. .This information is not widely distributed out there and people are free to take advantage of this offer from any reseller not just us.
Others have posted promotional information about their products here without any issues. Also possibly you are more aware of the Capture Integration posts because we have multiple members from our team posting a variety of information, most of which we have worked on together as a team. We each have our different style of communication, but all work together to make sure we provide a wealth of information to the community.
I apologize if you personally took offense.
lance
btw: Yes I am excited about this!!! It is great for the whole MF industry.
Lance
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Jon,
I think that information such as what was posted is useful to some folks that may be on the fence about make a decision on which way to go, saving over $5300 is pretty substantial.
So it is about a quick sell then, before the end of March. Would you rather that someone bought the right product for their style / type of photography, or just bought the cheapest, in the short space of time available?
This information is not widely distributed out there and people are free to take advantage of this offer from any reseller not just us.
I have little problem with you pointing to the information on your site, giving the reader the choice to go there if they wish. You do believe in user choice, don't you?
Others have posted promotional information about their products here without any issues.
Perhaps others shouldn't have been ignored in this respect, but my recollection is that CI do this a lot more than anybody else... maybe I'm wrong in this?
Also possibly you are more aware of the Capture Integration posts because we have multiple members from our team posting a variety of information, most of which we have worked on together as a team. We each have our different style of communication, but all work together to make sure we provide a wealth of information to the community.
I think I made it clear that this is what I enjoy about the whole team posting. You guys have a wealth of knowledge and personal experience. I believe that that has much more of an influence on people either buying from you, or buying the same products you sell. I think that posting detailed pricing that you did, with the rider of 'buy now or pay more later' only detracts from the way you might influence others, but I can only really speak for myself here!
I apologize if you personally took offense.
No need to apologise. I just wanted to highlight a different take on reaction to your post.
lance
btw: Yes I am excited about this!!! It is great for the whole MF industry.
Lance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't share your excitement; Sorry!
Jon
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This 'new' camera, I think, is just 'carrot dangling' to keep people interested in this line of cameras, while they develop their next major step up next year.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182646\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bingo! I feel that the real camera and leaf shutter lenses are far away but the marketing machine will do what it can to keep people waiting.
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There seams to be a new ZD back announced in the Mamiya Japan site
http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_mdinr08030012.html (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_mdinr08030012.html)
ダブルバッファーモデル translates to "Double Buffer Model"
They also have the "Phase One 645 AF" camera but it is not called 645 AFD III but just 645 AFD
中判AF一眼レフカメラ「マミヤ645AFDⅢ」
及び「120/220 ロールフィルムホルダー HM402」
発売のお知らせ
新たにニッケル水素電池にも対応 (Compatible with nickel hydride batteries)
They also have the new "Phase One" 80mm lens and other two lenses AF150 F2.8 IF D / AF45-90㎜F4.5 D Aspherical
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does anyone know the x-sync speed of the AFDIII?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1/125 I have on good authority!
J
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Jon,
I think that information such as what was posted is useful to some folks that may be on the fence about make a decision on which way to go, saving over $5300 is pretty substantial. .This information is not widely distributed out there and people are free to take advantage of this offer from any reseller not just us.
Others have posted promotional information about their products here without any issues. Also possibly you are more aware of the Capture Integration posts because we have multiple members from our team posting a variety of information, most of which we have worked on together as a team. We each have our different style of communication, but all work together to make sure we provide a wealth of information to the community.
I apologize if you personally took offense.
lance
btw: Yes I am excited about this!!! It is great for the whole MF industry.
Lance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey buddy, it's OK you don't have to apologize just remember to hook me up with an excellent deal when I'm ready to buy
Wish I could take advantage of the promo before March 31st
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I personally am willing to pay 4,000 dollars for a faster more accurate autofocus - if this is the case. I am sick of waiting for camera's to catch up to the backs. This is a good step and I am willing to pay 4 grand to have better autofocus until next year.
I think your argument is completely self defeating. Your reasons above are exactly why I wouldn't consider upgrading my AFD2 right now. (I might change my mind after absorbing the relevance of the extra lenses available)
Lastly, UK pricing is likely to be way above US pricing levels. If it's $5000 with you it's likely to be (equivalent) $7000-8000 with us.
I consider that good advice would be to step aside from all the marketing BS from Phase One, and ask yourself seriously, what is it going to do that my current one can't do, and is that extra function or non-functional advantage worth the investment? Especially in the light of a new camera coming next year.
Jon
EDIT: I hope the way I've put some things here doesn't give offence. I'm just to trying to put points fairly bluntly as I see it, from my perception. No disrespect is intended to the opinion of others. (I guess I'm not terribly happy with Phase One atm, after the way they treated me at a recent photographic trade show I was at.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182646\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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does anyone know the x-sync speed of the AFDIII?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is a lot of information that seems to be missing, or difficult to find.
Along with the X-sync, what is the complete lens lineup?, when will the new lenses be introduced, how fast will they be etc. etc.
In regards to mounting other lenses like the V and Mamiya manual focus, do you have to manually stop down when shooting (regardless of metering)?
With the V lenses will the shutters be operable, or just used in wide open mode?
Pentagon? Well I guess I can understand it for maybe that strange Harteblei (which I use for the contax) but what does pentagon offer that's really important and do you have to stop them down when shooting?
Where are the af points and how about a screen shot?
Why not a right angle grip, heck $1000 Nikons have one and most important, (very very important) will this be as strong as a tank (think Contax, Canon, RZ). The previous mamiya afd did not have a good reputation in rental houses in regards to reliability (actually the H series blad also has some issues in the lens department), but for this camera, or any new camera to make a dent in the professional market it better be a hammer that can put up with the abuse that rentals receive.
Medium format (and this goes for all the medium format companies, not just phase) needs to be more informative and less cryptic.
I want to see a price list of current lenses, dates on when new lenses will be introduced, reports about battery use/life, diagrams of focus, exact details of how 3rd party lenses work, if they focus to infinity.
And Lance and all the dealers, if your going to post sales information go further about how much product you have in stock, how much does it cost to change a different mount over to the Mamiya, how fast you can get lenses and accessories and the mount change done and how repairs are handled. No mumble mouth about cute little cases that hold one body and two lenses, or answering the three specific questions you "want" to answer and God please spare us responses of "due out in 3rd quarter 08".
Medium format needs to stop looking inward and look outside of their world. It seems Phase looks at Leaf, Leaf at Hasselblad, Sinar at Phase, but rather than just compete and compare with the direct competition, look at what the buyer needs today.
Put yourself in the position of if you wanted to buy a digital camera today, and start working in two days, what is really available.
I can walk into almost any camera store on the planet and buy everything Canon or Nikon offers, toss it in a bag and go to work.
I find it interesting and perplexing that I can lay out my Contax system of bodies, right angle grips, lenses and waist level finders and pretty much replace all of it in two days for less costs than the new Mamiya, much less costs than the Hasselblad, much, much, much less costs than the Hy6.
This doesn't mean the new Mamiya, Haselblad, or Rollei is not a good camera, or might turn out to be the best choice, but I think it should be assumed that anyone that puts down serious money for a medium format system has serious work to do, needs serious answers and needs availability today, not at some future date, tbd.
I think the dealers should be aware that most photographers that buy thier own equipment and follow this stuff are a little gun shy. The last few years have seen a ton of annoucements, usually the same annoucements with the same repeated promises, but not a lot of delivery and real time dates on hardware and software.
For me and others that make their living making photographs, the most important thing is you make this investment will everything that is promised actually make it's way to the shelf?
In fact I find this annoucement very un Phase One like. It's got a lot of sizzle, but not a lot of meat.
As the saying goes, just the facts man.
So Lance, the next time you want to make a banner ad on a forum, put in more information not just the current press release.
JR
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Jon,
I think that information such as what was posted is useful to some folks that may be on the fence about make a decision on which way to go, saving over $5300 is pretty substantial. .This information is not widely distributed out there and people are free to take advantage of this offer from any reseller not just us.
Others have posted promotional information about their products here without any issues. Also possibly you are more aware of the Capture Integration posts because we have multiple members from our team posting a variety of information, most of which we have worked on together as a team. We each have our different style of communication, but all work together to make sure we provide a wealth of information to the community.
I apologize if you personally took offense.
lance
btw: Yes I am excited about this!!! It is great for the whole MF industry.
Lance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Give lance a break. What's the big deal with putting pricing up? Sure we don't want to see it being plastered over the forum everytime but it's not going to make such an impact that you have to reply with such vitriol
anyway looks like the shutter lag issue was NOT addressed.
*shakes head*
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Bingo! I feel that the real camera and leaf shutter lenses are far away but the marketing machine will do what it can to keep people waiting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182707\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What you feel and what you know are much different.
The problem is nobody knows, but that is the normal course with a lot of medium format systems and unfortunatley Phase/Mamiya has taken a page out of the Leaf/Sinar style of product annoucements which is to produce a spiffy announcement but just say it with an asterick attached.
To Phase's credit at least they didn't make an "open platform" that's only available to Phase and ZD back owners and they didn't price it like a 5 series BMW.
JR
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Give lance a break. What's the big deal with putting pricing up? Sure we don't want to see it being plastered over the forum everytime but it's not going to make such an impact that you have to reply with such vitriol
anyway looks like the shutter lag issue was NOT addressed.
*shakes head*
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I heard from someone who had handled it that you are right about the shutter lag issue. We'll know for certain when it gets into the hands of reviewers.
It was 'price' and 'buy now or pay more later' that caused me concern!
Jon
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I don't think you can over estimate how many working pros loved shooting with the RZ, especially beauty and portraits and how many RZ lenses are sitting on a shelf waiting for use or realize how strong a selling point it would be to bundle two cameras, one for studio, one for location at the same price as the compeitions one system.
At least the new camera is black.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think this is being done now by both Leaf and Phase One ( both offering free Mamiya 645AFDII camera which expires 3/31/08 - thanks Lance! ) . A Mamiya RZ Pro IID Kit adds $3,199 to the price of a Leaf Aptus or Phase One back, which brings the price of a Mamiya 645AFD/Mamiya RZ bundled with either Aptus or Phase very close to an AFi/Hy6/H3DII bundle.
I have a call into Mamiya regarding AFDII to AFDIII upgrade pricing - they don't have it yet, if anyone else does, that would be helpful to know....Lance?
I agree about the RZ - photographers love the RZ, and even with some of the limitations, love using that system with digital. The glaring limitation, of course, being the 6x7 format with smaller digital sensors - for some that's a deal breaker, for others where it is not, much satisfaction shooting that system digitally.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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I heard from someone who had handled it that you are right about the shutter lag issue. We'll know for certain when it gets into the hands of reviewers.
It was 'price' and 'buy now or pay more later' that caused me concern!
Jon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
in all fairness the promotion that lance mentioned is not specific to his company, it's a phase one offer across the board.
slightly off topic but leaf has a similar offer but seems to offer a toyo vx23d also.
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I am gathering and distilling information for a FAQ section on our website on the Phase One body to help reduce confusion. If anyone has such a question please post it here or email me at doug@captureintegration.com. We'll do our best to track down an answer.
Someone asked about flash sync speeds. Phase One and Mamiya are saying leaf shutter lenses will be available "in 2008" which will provide higher flash sync speeds. I have no information on whether the sync speed using the focal plane shutter (i.e. all currently available lenses) has increased from 1/125, but have no reason to believe it has been. I will confirm this information for the FAQ.
One note, the adapter for Hasselblad V lenses keeps the len's shutter open and uses the body's focal plane to take the image. Therefore no faster sync speed will be had from the use of a Hassy V lens.
Doug Peterson, webmaster and tech at Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
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JR,
I started writing my request for questions in between taking calls and so didn't see your post before I finally was able to post. We'll do our best to get your questions answered and post the response both here an on our website.
Doug, webmaster and tech at Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
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in all fairness the promotion that lance mentioned is not specific to his company, it's a phase one offer across the board.
slightly off topic but leaf has a similar offer but seems to offer a toyo vx23d also.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182723\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just to clarify on the Leaf/Mamiya/Toyo promos:
The Mamiya deal is good with the purchase of any Leaf Aptus or Aptus S digital back and includes:
*Free Mamiya 645AFDII
*Buy 1 Mamiya lens, get a 2nd of equal value free
The Toyo deal is only on Aptus 75 or 75-S and includes:
*Free Toyo VX23D View Camera
*Free Mounting Adapter
*Free Leaf Live Video
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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I just don't get the Pentacon/Hartblei business.
What is the point of this? Who is asking for this?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you are overlooking the fact that there was some really great glass made for the Pentacon 6 mount by Schneider.
medium, wide and tele - xenotars, curtagons, etc. all top quality designs, often better than hassy-zeiss.
looking forward to trying the new Mamiya lenses - the build and mounts look way improved, and Mamiya always made great optics, so I have high hopes, especially with software corrections of abberations.
hope they bring out an updated ZD2 w 39Mp and Phase know-how, that would be a new style of camera over and apart from dslr's, and a whole field to themselves...
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Just to clarify on the Leaf/Mamiya/Toyo promos:
The Mamiya deal is good with the purchase of any Leaf Aptus or Aptus S digital back and includes:
*Free Mamiya 645AFDII
*Buy 1 Mamiya lens, get a 2nd of equal value free
The Toyo deal is only on Aptus 75 or 75-S and includes:
*Free Toyo VX23D View Camera
*Free Mounting Adapter
*Free Leaf Live Video
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael,
I think you should be talking to Steve and some of the other dealers because I believe your missing an income stream of placing some banner ads on this forum.
JR
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It's looking nice enough to upgrade for me.
However I hate the fact they still use AA batteries instead of a accupack.
I would also love to see a Highspeedsync option for systemflashes like the Metz, which I dearly miss for fill in flash outside.
On the canon it works with the Metz, changing it to the Mamiya socket the option is not available anymore.
Leaf shutterlenses would solve this but I would also love some sort of highspeed sync programming for the system flash.
I agree that I want to see the extra focuspoints, when they are landscape oriented they are missing out for the portrait photographers.
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Jon,
It's so hard to get reliable information these days regarding MF that I prefer being spammed a bit to being information-deprived.
Re. the price information, americans are always a bit exuberant, extroverted and commercially oriented compared with us more reserved and artistic europeans
No offense intended to anyone
Edmund
I agree with you Edmund, he's certainly being over enthusiastic.
Do you disagree with my observations about how Capture Integration treat this site, compared with others?
Jon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182699\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi
This is from the MAC group with larger photos of body & 80mm lens. Open platform & called AFD III.
http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html)
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Jon,
Re. the price information, americans are always a bit exuberant, extroverted and commercially oriented compared with us more reserved and artistic europeans
No offense intended to anyone
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you just about summed it up perfectly there, Edmund. In my case though I'm autistic (as well as artistic), so that might go further to explaining why I took some exception.
Anyway, back to the thread. So when are we going to see some references/pics etc to all this lovely glass, people are talking about?
Jon
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yes - but that´s nothing new. I use a schneider curtagon and zeiss jena flektogon sine I have the ZD. any old 10 euro adapter P6>mamiya does it. lenses from 50-200 euros from ebay. and i admit, it feels a bit strange using a 100 euro lens on a camera/back that costs a hundred time or more than the lens.
and don´t forget the fab schneider and rodenstock APO rodagons and componons from 80mm upwards via adapter like zörks (including even shift and tilt). 100-200 euros for probably unbeaten lensquality and optimised for wide open work!
stefan
I think you are overlooking the fact that there was some really great glass made for the Pentacon 6 mount by Schneider.
medium, wide and tele - xenotars, curtagons, etc. all top quality designs, often better than hassy-zeiss.
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Sorry James, to jump in, but I have to correct some unfair statements:
1. I doubt you can find many product announcements from Sinar which have then not proven to come at the promised release date, with exception of the Hy6 camera (announced PK and promised for June 07, finally starting delivery mid of November '07) and the eXposure SW (it seems to me that other SW brands have been announced well in advance as well and did not show up at the promised date).
You are claiming that Sinar has a tradition of announcing purposely products to create a marketing spin: in the contrary, this is certainly not our style, and if that has happened, than it is far from the reasons you believe it to be.
2. Concerning prices: the different systems prices in the US have been published by Sinar's distributor and dealers. If you would compare these prices with those of the 2 others brand systems available, you would see that your claim is wrong.
Then: there is not only the US which counts here. I can tell you that our pricing is in many countries BELOW our competition.
Claiming that Sinar products are over-priced is misleading and unfair.
3. I won't extrapolate anymore on the "Open Platform" issue: I have explained and we have explained what this system can do and which backs with it is compatible, since December '06.
Best regards,
Thierry
.... taken a page out of the Leaf/Sinar style of product annoucements which is to produce a spiffy announcement but just say it with an asterick attached.
To Phase's credit at least they didn't make an "open platform" that's only available to Phase and ZD back owners and they didn't price it like a 5 series BMW.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182720\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I've been too busy to jump into the discussion so far but I think it's funny how worked up everyone is getting.
I remember in the past there was a launch by Nikon of 2 new CoolPix consumer digicams, but for a month, they had a promo splash on their website with mysterious, tantalizing clues of what the new digicams were like, but of course, they really gave away little - something about a double surprise, seeing the world in a new way, which led some people to conclude that they were going to launch a stereoscopic Nikon CoolPix! Personally, my logic tells me that a Stereoscopic CoolPix isn't what the mass market wants, so they're not going to make that, but I guess sometimes you never know for sure...
Bottom line is, in my opinion, what Mamiya and Phase One did is good business. Good for their businesses, and for me:
- It has raised my impression and confidence of Mamiya as a company with a future.
- It makes Phase One more interesting too, although the transformation for me for Phase One is not as drastic as that for Mamiya.
- It's really great that we're getting momentum now with medium format digital - Sinar with the Hy6, Mamiya with the updated AFDIII, updated ZD back, Phase One with the Phase One 645 AF camera, all in quite a short space of time (relatively speaking for medium format), it makes it very exciting.
No doubt, maybe existing AFDII users may look at it and think that there might not be enough in there to make them upgrade, but nobody's saying you have to. But for people who've been sitting on the sidelines thinking the Hassy H3D was too expensive for them, whatever the actual pricing/deals realities may be, may be tipped by Mamiya becoming a stronger choice again. Mamiya FINALLY came out with the RB67 adapter for the ZD back, which should have been release last year and I think that will help things along further. No doubt the ZD back has a ways to go to improve - e.g., tethered shooting performance, long exposure image quality, but from a business side of things, it all looks good to me...
My 2cents...
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Claiming that Sinar products are over-priced is misleading and unfair.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=182830\")
TH
Whether sinar is 'over priced' is one thing - it definitely looks the most expensive in the UK
[a href=\"http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2077&cat=48]Sinar £21700 Lens unkown[/url]
H3dII with 28mm £19975 (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=1970&PT_ID=391&P=H3DII---31/39-Bundles)
P45 mamiya and 28mm £20775 (http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=515_546_825&products_id=12714)
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In terms of announcements one cant win as a producer either you are teasing the market or stittching up your userbase
Imagine how people would have felt buying a D2x the day befroe the D3 hit the streets
There would have beeen all sorts of 'stock clearance' conspiracies
But most manufacturers use language that doesnt inspire trust
The developers of exposure coud run a blog - this is the battles we are fighting today - these are the great feature requests we are getting from our users and how we are integrating them and why that is causing delay
Anyway for this Phase camera to be attractive to me I need leaf lenses, they can tease all they want but I wont buy the thing until they actually exist preferably in the used market
Its not like my H1 is a bad camera
SMM
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Sorry James, to jump in, but I have to correct some unfair statements:
1. I doubt you can find many product announcements from Sinar which have then not proven to come at the promised release date, with exception of the Hy6 camera (announced PK and promised for June 07, finally starting delivery mid of November '07) and the eXposure SW (it seems to me that other SW brands have been announced well in advance as well and did not show up at the promised date).
You are claiming that Sinar has a tradition of announcing purposely products to create a marketing spin: in the contrary, this is certainly not our style, and if that has happened, than it is far from the reasons you believe it to be.
2. Concerning prices: the different systems prices in the US have been published by Sinar's distributor and dealers. If you would compare these prices with those of the 2 others brand systems available, you would see that your claim is wrong.
Then: there is not only the US which counts here. I can tell you that our pricing is in many countries BELOW our competition.
Claiming that Sinar products are over-priced is misleading and unfair.
3. I won't extrapolate anymore on the "Open Platform" issue: I have explained and we have explained what this system can do and which backs with it is compatible, since December '06.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Theirry,
Your taking me too seriously man.
But for the record I didn't say Sinar was overpriced, actually I don't know the price of a Sinar as I have never asked. I don't even think the HY6 is overpriced if that is the camera spins your bullet, but I do think it is very expensive and out of hasselblad, phase and Rollei/Leaf/Sinar it seems to be the most costly of the new medium format cameras, especially when you factor in lenses.
For digital backs, it seems everybody is the same price, though I'm sure I'll be corrected on this if I'm $4 off.
Now as far as the asterisk, let's be realistic, there are a lot of companies out there with a lot of missed deadlines on software and hardware (see your reference #1) and no buyer set the deadlines, the makers did, so a missed deadline is a missed deadline regardless of the motivation or reason.
In the past I've gone through the routine of paying retail then waiting for hardware, firmware and software fixes and though all the delays may have logical reasons and are well meaning, the manufacturer didn't put a note on their website that said, "hey hold off 6 months cause we're not ready yet", in fact the literature usually says the opposite.
For me I waited as long as I could, then I switched.
Nobody said this was easy and I'm sure making cameras, backs and software is a highly specialized skill set, especially for a small specific market and I'm very glad that all the makers of digital backs are still producing.
Still, until all of these cameras, lenses, accessories and software (your company very much included) are on the shelf with everything on the list ready to use and buy, on the dates promised, then there are some undeniable asterisks in place.
As far as unfair, well I guess that depends on whether your the seller or the buyer.
But back to the origin of this thread which is the new Phase One, Mamiya Camera.
Right now on paper most of it looks pretty good and another alternative for photographers.
Nothing wrong with that as long as development continues.
JR
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hi Sam,
1. Prices
The recommended Sinar price for this kit is £ 20'100
the Hy6-e75 kit includes the 2.8/80 AFD. Included in this price is the Sinar STANDARD 3-year warranty (Camera, Back, Lens and Accessories).
if you go to "Terms & Conditions" you shall see that the H3D 39 Kit comes with a 12-month warranty, only. Now we should know how much would cost an extension to 3 years warranty, but my guess is that it should be around £ 2'000.-
As for the P45+ kit: the "standard" warranty is 12 month. The "Valued Added Warranty" does cover a swap-out of the back (not camera/lens) while yours is repaired: which probably means that you have to pay the repair costs (not clear in the description), but I might be wrong.
If you take this in consideration and read the conditions, then I don't see such a big difference as to be able to claim "Serie 5 BMW" prices, in the contrary.
2. Announcements
You are right, we will always have it difficult, as manufacturers: when you don't inform it makes people say that nothing happen with this company, when you do and your product doesn't ship exactly in time, then it's criticized as well.
Best regards,
Thierry
TH
Whether sinar is 'over priced' is one thing - it definitely looks the most expensive in the UK
Sinar £21700 Lens unkown (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2077&cat=48)
H3dII with 28mm £19975 (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=1970&PT_ID=391&P=H3DII---31/39-Bundles)
P45 mamiya and 28mm £20775 (http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=515_546_825&products_id=12714)
----
In terms of announcements one cant win as a producer either you are teasing the market or stittching up your userbase
Imagine how people would have felt buying a D2x the day befroe the D3 hit the streets
There would have beeen all sorts of 'stock clearance' conspiracies
But most manufacturers use language that doesnt inspire trust
The developers of exposure coud run a blog - this is the battles we are fighting today - these are the great feature requests we are getting from our users and how we are integrating them and why that is causing delay
Anyway for this Phase camera to be attractive to me I need leaf lenses, they can tease all they want but I wont buy the thing until they actually exist preferably in the used market
Its not like my H1 is a bad camera
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi James,
Yes, I do take you seriously!
See my previous post above concerning Sinar prices of the described and compared kit: one always forgets that Sinar has a STANDARD 3-Year Warranty, for all products and since back to the analog age.
I agree with you on the "missed deadlines": whatever the reason, it is missed, but please don't put us at the point of your gun
On a side note: I did appreciate your previous posts to this one and read with great interest. Makes a lot of sense, all you are saying.
Best regards,
Thierry
Theirry,
Your taking me too seriously man.
But for the record I didn't say Sinar was overpriced, actually I don't know the price of a Sinar as I have never asked. I don't even think the HY6 is overpriced if that is the camera spins your bullet, but I do think it is very expensive and out of hasselblad, phase and Rollei/Leaf/Sinar it seems to be the most costly of the new medium format cameras, especially when you factor in lenses.
For digital backs, it seems everybody is the same price, though I'm sure I'll be corrected on this if I'm $4 off.
Now as far as the asterisk, let's be realistic, there are a lot of companies out there with a lot of missed deadlines on software and hardware (see your reference #1) and no buyer set the deadlines, the makers did, so a missed deadline is a missed deadline regardless of the motivation or reason.
In the past I've gone through the routine of paying retail then waiting for hardware, firmware and software fixes and though all the delays may have logical reasons and are well meaning, the manufacturer didn't put a note on their website that said, "hey hold off 6 months cause we're not ready yet", in fact the literature usually says the opposite.
For me I waited as long as I could, then I switched.
Nobody said this was easy and I'm sure making cameras, backs and software is a highly specialized skill set, especially for a small specific market and I'm very glad that all the makers of digital backs are still producing.
Still, until all of these cameras, lenses, accessories and software (your company very much included) are on the shelf with everything on the list ready to use and buy, on the dates promised, then there are some undeniable asterisks in place.
As far as unfair, well I guess that depends on whether your the seller or the buyer.
But back to the origin of this thread which is the new Phase One, Mamiya Camera.
Right now on paper most of it looks pretty good and another alternative for photographers.
Nothing wrong with that as long as development continues.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182875\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Sam,
1. Prices
If you take this in consideration and read the conditions, then I don't see such a big difference as to be able to claim "Serie 5 BMW" prices, in the contrary.
2. Announcements
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Prices
Yeah James is (as ever) right they all cost 'about the same'
I used to drive a really good BMW750 that cost half of those prices BTW !
---
It is to me interesting that you cant sell James a Hy6 - he would seem to be on profile - not wide obsessed and prepared I would imagine to pay quite a lot for a comfortable day shooting uprights at decent synch speeds with creamy lenses
Anyway about the Phase..
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hi Sam,
As for the P45+ kit: the "standard" warranty is 12 month. The "Valued Added Warranty" does cover a swap-out of the back (not camera/lens) while yours is repaired: which probably means that you have to pay the repair costs (not clear in the description), but I might be wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just so we're clear, the Value Added Warranty is exactly that, a 3 year WARRANTY with a loaner back provided while the back is being serviced, and as such all costs of repair are covered by Phase One except in situations where the customer damaged the back (such as impact damage, dunking in the ocean, etc.). In addition, the photographer receives the loaner back BEFORE sending in their back for servicing.
Hope this helps,
Ron
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Thanks to clarify this, Ron, it was not stated under the conditions.
I have seen the price in Europe of such a "Value Added Warranty": it's Euro 4'000.- in addition to the normal 1 year warranty price (for all kits).
Do you know if this covers also the camera/lens, or only the back?
Best regards,
Thierry
Just so we're clear, the Value Added Warranty is exactly that, a 3 year WARRANTY with a loaner back provided while the back is being serviced, and as such all costs of repair are covered by Phase One except in situations where the customer damaged the back (such as impact damage, dunking in the ocean, etc.). In addition, the photographer receives the loaner back BEFORE sending in their back for servicing.
Hope this helps,
Ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182951\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Prices
Yeah James is (as ever) right they all cost 'about the same'
I used to drive a really good BMW750 that cost half of those prices BTW !
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It is to me interesting that you cant sell James a Hy6 - he would seem to be on profile - not wide obsessed and prepared I would imagine to pay quite a lot for a comfortable day shooting uprights at decent synch speeds with creamy lenses
Anyway about the Phase..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm good on talking numbers in this business, actually I run the numbers so often on production you'd think my profession was cost accountant.
Like a lot of people that do what I do I also have to invest in other areas, cameras being just one component. We're redoing a studio in Paris and 20,000 Euro for furniture will go a lot further for my business than switching out camera bodies.
As I mentioned that using the contax for $50,000 US, I have 4 bodies, 13 lenses and two digital backs a p21+ and a P30+ and no wide is not my primary lens and I need to use a 35 only about 3 times a year, but when I need it I really need it. Now a 18mp digital back may not seem like state of the art, though it's a very good looking 18mp and offers a different look to the P-30+ so this is a pretty good combination for the price.
I did have some concern going to a more cropped sensor size, but in reality never really noticed it as if you measure down the long side of the frame the A-22 is actually a 1.14 crop and the P-30 is a 1.24 crop so a 35mm is essentially a 39.9mm or the A-22 and 43.4mm or a P-30. Not that much difference to me, for some it might be a big difference.
I'm not saying what I use is right for everyone, but at the time I decided to switch backs, I looked at other brands and Hasselblad didn't have a P-30 type sensor(at the time) and both Blad and Sinar files did not work in multiple processors (at the time) without some form of conversion.
Also the real deal stopper was that Hasselblad and Sinar's new software was still in development and I had gone down the LC10 beta road and wasn't about to use anything until it had been out on the market for some time and had all the bugs worked out.
Now if I was starting fresh today I'd look at a lot of different cameras (though probably the same backs) and the new Mamiya would get my attention more so because it would go directly on the RZII than just the attributes of the 645. As everyone mentions (and they are correct) the RZ glass has a softer curve and is perfect for beauty and studio fashion work. A higher magnification finder would be something that is needed more than any other accessories for the RZ.
Also the RZ is just a great camera, sturdy, professional and well thought out. The only camera that feels as robust and strong as the RZ, to me, is the Contax.
Still the ability to work in multiple processors for finish can have as dramatic an effect as different cameras and lenses and (once again at the time) shooting compressed the P30 was the only file that went into RD, Lightroom, 3.78 and now V4, without having to do some type of decompression or conversion.
Shooting medium format adds a quality that the dslrs don't posses, at least when you work a file really deep. I don't buy into the 3dness of a 645 vs. 35mm frame, though I do see a difference in the capture and I think the absence of a AA filter has a much to do with it as the actually bit depth.
This topic is about cameras and everyone likes talking and comparing cameras and files, though once the real work begins, cameras fall way down the line compared to battle field workflow.
Since I work a lot and am always on some kind of deadline I break the digital process down to three parts.
The first is capture, whether tethered or non tethered and it absolutely, positively must be fast and rock stable. Nothing is a bigger buzz kill than a dead or jammed computer or back.
The second part and the most agonizing can be the editing, renaming, adjusting and processing to jpegs for web galleries. From a straight studio day with little light changes all of the cameras and softwares work pretty well, but on those 1,000 frame days when your shooting outside and the light, subjects and exposure is changing every few minutes adjusting thousands of files at midnight to 3am can be something that is paramount to torture if the software is not stable and the adjustments are not easy.
The third and final is processing to finish and though this is where everybody does their comparisons I've found that depending on processor, there really isn't that much difference between all of the major brands.
Still, step one and two are much more important (in my view) than the final step. When I test and learn a new system I do it as worse case scenario. I shoot fast, pull the cord, or purposely crash the software and see how easy or difficult it is to get the system back running. I intentionally shoot over and under exposures of thousands of files and then toss them in the software and see how easy it is to change color, tone, exposure, and how stable a folder of a thousand files is next to a folder of just 100.
Then in the middle of this process I pretend the client wants four images processed and put on the web for immediate review, (as we shoot) or wants to edit down a session for a rush deadline (as we shoot).
These scenarios come up much more often than I'd like to admit and the success of a project, or more important the client perception of success can depend on how quickly and professionally these challenges can be accomplished.
So I use what I use for a lot of reasons, but the worse case scenario is probably the most important.
My cameras are not new, though well proven and cost effective, my on set software v 3.78 is also not new but stable and though I could put more resource to newer cameras until something has really been tested to it's fullest under the most extreme conditions, I don't really want to know about it.
JR
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Nice one,Thierry.
It's reassuring that you are as capable of posting inaccurate information about your
competitors as the many forum posters whom you so routinely 'correct' for doing the same
with regards to Sinar product information.
Mark
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Dear Mark,
I beg you pardon?!
did I not say and write it clearly enough in my post?:
"... (not clear in the description), but I might be wrong ..."
For the very reason that I was not sure BECAUSE it was not written: here what it says on this Phase dealer info site:
http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?mai...oducts_id=12714 (http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=515_546_825&products_id=12714)
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Classic & Value Added Warranties
The P45 + PLUS is available with either one of the following warranties:
Classic Warranty
The standard 12 month manufacturer's RTB (Return To Base) warranty, with no emergency swap-out service.
Value Added Warranty
The best warranty choice for busy pro photographers. An enhanced 3 year High Priority swap-out service, meaning that if your digital back goes down or is damaged - worldwide, Phase One will immediately send out a replacement back for you to use while yours is being repaired.
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For me it was not clear at all, and therefore my remark that I might be wrong.
And therefore my "thank you" to Ron for his correction as soon as he had clarified this.
So now I will even add here my apologies, if I have offended you. I have no problems to recognize my mistakes and errors, don't worry about that. And I guess I shall still do a lot of them before being perfect.
As for correcting others: yes, I do correct mistakes, for the sake of trying to provide the right one to those using thee products, not for the sake to contradict others.
Best regards,
Thierry
Nice one,Thierry.
It's reassuring that you are as capable of posting inaccurate information about your
competitors as the many forum posters whom you so routinely 'correct' for doing the same
with regards to Sinar product information.
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks to clarify this, Ron, it was not stated under the conditions.
I have seen the price in Europe of such a "Value Added Warranty": it's Euro 4'000.- in addition to the normal 1 year warranty price (for all kits).
Do you know if this covers also the camera/lens, or only the back?
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A warranty is exactly that, a warranty. The camera and lens will be covered for 3 years or 300,000 frames if you purchase a Value Added kit (1 year or 100,000 frames if you buy the Classic kit). The loaner is for the digital back, not the camera or lens. That is the info that Phase One has provided at this time.
Regards,
Ron
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So now I will even add here my apologies, if I have offended you. I have no problems to recognize my mistakes and errors, don't worry about that. And I guess I shall still do a lot of them before being perfect.
Thierry,
You certainly owe me no apology.
I was merely struck but the irony of your statement concerning the Phase warranty
and your fairly regular corrections of other forum users who post similar inaccurate statements
concerning the Sinar brand.
Prefacing such statements with "I may be wrong" or other such disclaimers doesn't do anything to
minimize the inaccuracy.
Mark
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Certainly, Mark.
You are absolutely right.
You know what?: I will leave this particular topic and look for my 10days-new-born daughter. This is much more fun, much more rewarding and less subject to blames. I was in the belief that we are all adults here, but apparently not: some seem to wait eagerly to point their gun.
I wish you all the best.
Thierry
Thierry,
You certainly owe me no apology.
I was merely struck but the irony of your statement concerning the Phase warranty
and your fairly regular corrections of other forum users who post similar inaccurate statements
concerning the Sinar brand.
Prefacing such statements with "I may be wrong" or other such disclaimers doesn't do anything to
minimize the inaccuracy.
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182988\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sinar is going out of business. (I may be wrong)**
**This is a sarcastic comment referring to an earlier post.
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Unless someone reads the entire thread to know what's going, crap like this is not useful for any of us. Sarcasm doesn't work very well in forum text.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183005\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The problem with this, regardless of intent or humor is it goes into the google public domain.
First rule, do no harm.
Let's be realistic, every dealer and manufacturer that is here is bias toward the products they represent, (and so they should be), but Theirry a word to the wise, I',m glad your here but if you go public on this or any other forum your gonna take some hits. So does everyone, myself included.
It's just the costs for sharing information.
Photographers are usually bias towards the equipment they use becuase it's thier hard work that allowed them to make the purchase, so a lot of these differences of view are just natural and predictable.
Still, I'm glad we have representation from the reps and dealers as long as it doesn't become banner ad central and would love to see representation from Hasselblad, Phase, Nikon and Canon.
JR
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I for one went the Mamiya/Phase route and I'm very happy I did, but I am equally excited whenever ANY camera maker announces new products and advancements, because I love to have choices and I think competition is good for everybody. The last year has been exciting and the MF market is seemingly alive and well again after some turbulent times. I'm no fan-boy, so whenever I'm upgrading my equipment I always weigh my options, and in the end hand over my hard-earned cash to whomever gives me most bang for the buck.
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First rule, do no harm.
Second rule might be:
Read twice, or three times before replying
to avoid misinterpreting and misunderstanding.
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I think we should give Thierry a brake, he is what-you-see-is-what-you-get. He happens to represent -in a non official way- one of the main players, Sinar, that is coming out with an interesting new system. There is a reason why nobody from Leaf, Hasselblad,Mamiya, posts here regularly and that is because posters will go personal with them whenever they feel frustrated with their products.
Why don't we reboot and reset the dialog??
Certainly, Mark.
You are absolutely right.
You know what?: I will leave this particular topic and look for my 10days-new-born daughter. This is much more fun, much more rewarding and less subject to blames. I was in the belief that we are all adults here, but apparently not: some seem to wait eagerly to point their gun.
I wish you all the best.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182991\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Certainly, Mark.
You are absolutely right.
You know what?: I will leave this particular topic and look for my 10days-new-born daughter. This is much more fun, much more rewarding and less subject to blames.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182991\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
This are the wisest words and the smartest conclusion. Enjoy every second of it does not last long.
My daughter was ten days old yesterday and today she already argues with me ( 2 and 1/2 years old ). I went through this process four times already and I can guarantee it to you that there is nothing more rewarding. Your aggravation here will trickle down home and infants are like sponges, they will absorb and respond to your moods. These are mostly fruitless discussion here between people who either do not have 10 days old daughters or simply can not enjoy much anyways. I heavily limited my participation here as I found myself to busy with rapidly growing business and to happy in general to influence myself with mostly pointless repetitions.
See you soon and the best of luck.
Andre
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Something more:
3 new lenses (also announced by LL) and an adaptator to use the ZD back with old RB's.
PdF
http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/ob...accesorios.html (http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/objetivos/mamiya-opticas-y-accesorios.html)
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Something more:
3 new lenses (also announced by LL) and an adaptator to use the ZD back with old RB's.
PdF
http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/ob...accesorios.html (http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/objetivos/mamiya-opticas-y-accesorios.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Have they said anything about an adaptor for the non "D" rz67 pro?
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hi James,
Yes, I do take you seriously!
See my previous post above concerning Sinar prices of the described and compared kit: one always forgets that Sinar has a STANDARD 3-Year Warranty, for all products and since back to the analog age.
I agree with you on the "missed deadlines": whatever the reason, it is missed, but please don't put us at the point of your gun
On a side note: I did appreciate your previous posts to this one and read with great interest. Makes a lot of sense, all you are saying.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I had to wait about a year longer than promised for my old sinarback and when it came time to send the old model loaner back to get my new back that I'd been waiting a year for they tried to get me to pay the hundred dollars to send the thing back rather than allow me to just take it back to my dealer. Quite unimpressed.
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The new Mamiya - Phase One is announced. It can be used with Mamiya ZD backs, Phase one P+, and may be with other backs (?).
The new body accepts Mamiya 645 AF and 645 manual, Hasselblad V and Pentacon six/Kiev 6x6 lenses.
A new Capture One 4.1 Program (also for Mamiya ZD) converts RAW with lenses corrections habylities.
PdF
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/camaras-para-formato-medio/mamiya-phase-one-2.html)
I hope it's a big improvement over the older 645AFD that I used for a few years shooting film. I thought the shutter lag and auto focus were terrible. I would also like to know how good the lenses are with a digital sensor as compared with film.
Hoping for the best.
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Dear woof75,
May be some more details would be helpful: there must be something else in your story.
As soon as I have details I shall go behind this and find the answers.
Best regards,
Thierry
I had to wait about a year longer than promised for my old sinarback and when it came time to send the old model loaner back to get my new back that I'd been waiting a year for they tried to get me to pay the hundred dollars to send the thing back rather than allow me to just take it back to my dealer. Quite unimpressed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183896\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I hope it's a big improvement over the older 645AFD that I used for a few years shooting film. I thought the shutter lag and auto focus were terrible. I would also like to know how good the lenses are with a digital sensor as compared with film.
Hoping for the best.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
if the 75-150 zoom which was released last year is any indication, the new lenses should be stellar.
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if the 75-150 zoom which was released last year is any indication, the new lenses should be stellar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Right on - and the 28 mm is one of those stellar lenses. (One of the great reasons to use MFDB's is wide-angle performance compared to DSLRs)
Bill
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Right on - and the 28 mm is one of those stellar lenses. (One of the great reasons to use MFDB's is wide-angle performance compared to DSLRs)
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A new 35mm lens would be nice, the current one isn't terrible but it aint great either and it's MY lens that I use for 98 percent of all my work. (when you stick it on a P21 it's equivalent of 28mm in 35mm format)
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A new 35mm lens would be nice, the current one isn't terrible but it aint great either and it's MY lens that I use for 98 percent of all my work. (when you stick it on a P21 it's equivalent of 28mm in 35mm format)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think it's pretty likely they'll update the whole lineup of lenses to D specs with time.