Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: nickdavis on March 15, 2008, 06:58:05 pm
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I need to mount a canvas print to something relatively thin, and my only experience is with stretching. I was going to use chipboard but a framer we sometimes use says foam board would be better.
Does anyone here mount canvas on anything solid? If so, what is the best way to go?
Thanks!
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I need to mount a canvas print to something relatively thin, and my only experience is with stretching. I was going to use chipboard but a framer we sometimes use says foam board would be better.
Does anyone here mount canvas on anything solid? If so, what is the best way to go?
Thanks!
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It sounds like you need to "wet" mount the canvas print. I would not use regular foam core---it will warp. Use gatorboard to wet mount canvas prints.
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I need to mount a canvas print to something relatively thin, and my only experience is with stretching. I was going to use chipboard but a framer we sometimes use says foam board would be better.
Does anyone here mount canvas on anything solid? If so, what is the best way to go?
Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181791\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I glue hardboard (masonite or similar) to a canvas strainer and then trim with a router. Then I mount the canvas print to the masonite surface with an acid-free glue, Mighty Muck. When the glue has dried, I wrap the edges of the canvas around the sides of the strainer and staple to the back.
Mounting on foam core is not a good idea with canvas. Most glues will shrink as they dry and cause the foam core to warp. Gatorfoam will work OK, though it's expensive.
I like the masonite solution because it's stable, inexpensive, and durable (canvas on panel is less easily damaged than stretched canvas).
David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com
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If not "Mighty Muck" use what we that do bookbindings use. PVA glue.
Search talasonline.com for Jade 403 or Jade 711 I believe. Both the same thing, 711 is less odor. VERY good bonding glue used for book binding so very applicable.
I second using hardboard. You can pick up a 2x4 piece or many other sizes usually at the local home improvement story. Most cary 1/16, 1/8 and 1/4 Masonite (hardboard)
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What is a 'canvas strainer'. Is Mighty Muck the same type of adhesive as Yes Paste? Masonite is a good material to use? Not quite acid free.
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What is a 'canvas strainer'. Is Mighty Muck the same type of adhesive as Yes Paste? Masonite is a good material to use? Not quite acid free.
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Don't know what the strainer is... but...
Masonite isn't acid free, correct. I just took my PH pen and rubbed it on and it came out Yellow (acidic) Archival, I'd guess you'd have to use Sintra, which would be just like Masonite and comes in 3mm and 6mm thicknesses, possibly more. I think PiedmontPLastics.com carries it, if not, just search google for Sintra Mounting Board.
A note about Masonite.. some album MFG's like Zookbinders use it for their covers. Now, the covers only really touch leather... but you would think if they use it, they would had tested it to know what was good/bad. Maybe they know something about Masonite we don't?
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What is a 'canvas strainer'. Is Mighty Muck the same type of adhesive as Yes Paste? Masonite is a good material to use? Not quite acid free.
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Mighty Muck is an acid free glue with a long working time, which allows for repositioning if needed. It's available at framing supply companies--it's often used to wrap mats in fabric, for example.
Masonite is NOT acid free, but with the coating of glue in between the masonite and the canvas, the canvas is effectively isolated from direct contact with the acidic masonite. It also helps that the canvas is not behind glass---so any outgassing is not contained.
It's also possible to laminate an acid free substrate to the masonite (something like acid free matboard or Tyvek, and then glue the canvas to that substrate.
A canvas strainer is the same as a stretcher---the frame on which the canvas is mounted.
David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com
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I recently saw some old silver prints that were wrapped on Masonite using wallpaper paste and techniques in 70's. Most of these still look fine. A few show minor yellowing which I attribute to bad fixing/washing, and one has a small area of paper that has separated from the board. Wouldn't advise that sort of wallpapering for an inkjet print, but I suspect the acidic properties of Masonite are not much of an issue at least on the 30 year horizon.
FWIW in the 70's time there was a type of Masonite available that had something like a polished wax coating, maybe it was for moisture shielding. It was not glue-able. Don't know what's available now, anybody have any input on this?
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Yeah, Bill. i haven't seen that stuff for a while now. i glue to masonite all the time with no problems.
I usually dry mount in my heat press but any of the above methods work as well.
I currently have 2 canvases where the original stretcher frame warped badly enough that the canvas won't lay flat when attached to a new stretcher frame so they will need to be glued down.
The main thing to remember when gluing it down is to weight it FLAT till it dries. Otherwise, it will bow.
Forget using chipboard as it is literally "crap". At a minimum use a 1/8" masonite. Go up to 1/4" for larger sizes.
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I have been mounting canvas on acid free foam core, using Scotch 77 spray adhesive on both surfaces. It's the water in water based adhesives that cause the warping. I'm still in a rather experimental stage with this, but it has scaled up with 24x40 inch canvas panos nicely; 36" is next. I fabricated C-clamp guides to help me align the foam core on the face-down canvas. So far, so good.
I've also found that a spray (non-water based) primer on the foam core allows me to pour water on it, and it still does not warp. Water/moisture appears to be the primary cause of the warping problems.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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The biggest problem with Spray 77 is the overspray mist gets onto everything and is really bad for your lungs....unless you live in NJ... in which case it doesn't matter. You're already screwed!! :o
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Yeah, Bill. i haven't seen that stuff for a while now.
Thanks for the prompt reply, framah! I hope you didn't rush on my account.
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I prefer clear acrylic since I don't like the edges to show and the clear is unobtrusive as opposed to sentra/masonite/gatorboard.
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I have been asked by a client to stretch/present a canvas print. The print is 7.5 ft by 3 ft. Canvas larger. He thought a stretcher could do the job.. have stretched work before never this size? I believe i need toglue canvas on board then board on a frame behind it too keep flat? Might even attach board to frame behind before I glue it down. Any thoughts/ideas will be welcome. Enough canvas to do a wrap a wrap around.
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If he will accept the photo mounted on a board then I would just print it on PhotoTex and mount it on Gatorboard (to save on weight). The Gatorboard is perfectly flat and the PhotoTex has a repositionable self-adhesive back making it easy to mount. Then just glue three (or more) 3" square spacers made from 1/2" foam board to hang your hanging wire from. Simple, easy,lightweight.
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How do you attach hanging hardware to the back of the Masonite?
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Most glues discussed here are PVA based, bookbinders, woodglue, etc. There could be differences in the PH grade. Acidic materials may not be as problematic in combination with inkjet materials as they were with silver halide and chromogenic prints but Mark McCormick may have a more precise answer on that. Of course if the print media base is compromised by the acidity of the underlying support the print is lost.
I am interested in why canvas is used when it is mounted this way. Is it for the texture? I know similar mounted prints where the print material is an inkjet Tyvek type, smoother surface, flexibel enough to fold around the edges. I am considering to use that where "archival" properties are not that important. Probably easier to mount it with my cold vacuum table + glue than with the cold laminator. Canvas is not really appreciated by my customers but this solution could be.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Canvas has several advantages over paper when mounted flat and displayed without glass/acrylic protection:
1. it is tougher and more durable than paper.
2. it can accept a water based UV and mechanical protective overcoat (like Eco Print Shield) without warping (paper will warp).
3. it has very little curl as opposed to some papers (especially RC) making it much easier to flat mount very large pieces.
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Most glues discussed here are PVA based, bookbinders, woodglue, etc. There could be differences in the PH grade. Acidic materials may not be as problematic in combination with inkjet materials as they were with silver halide and chromogenic prints but Mark McCormick may have a more precise answer on that. Of course if the print media base is compromised by the acidity of the underlying support the print is lost.
I am interested in why canvas is used when it is mounted this way. Is it for the texture? I know similar mounted prints where the print material is an inkjet Tyvek type, smoother surface, flexibel enough to fold around the edges. I am considering to use that where "archival" properties are not that important. Probably easier to mount it with my cold vacuum table + glue than with the cold laminator. Canvas is not really appreciated by my customers but this solution could be.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Hi Ernst,
A couple of weeks ago this topic popped up again as it has previously. I jumped into the mix to add my opinions on the subject and my reasons for those opinions. You replied to say that you shared some of my reasoning on the matter. I won't get into all of that here, except to say that it has always been my opinion that the main reason for printing an image on canvas is the aesthetics of the media, which for the most part are completely overlooked when canvas is mounted on any form of hard material. Again, my opinion only, with which many may disagree. Certainly not a first for me, but I do have a bit of information that might be of some use to those who decide to mount their canvases on such products as Masonite. The bonding factor in Masonite is lignin, something we always look out for in any substrate we print on. Lignin is a natural product, but quite acidic as well. It is a natural bonding material, but not good for mounting any sort of artwork unless properly coated with a sealer guaranteed to inhibit the leaching of lignin.
One more note: A few of you have referred to a harder form of Masonite. That product is generally referred as Tempered Masonite/Hardboard. In the case of Tempered Masonite a coating of linseed oil is baked into the smooth surface to make it more resistant to scratching and other forms of abuse. Now we have a combination of lignin and linseed oil in the material upon which we are going to mount a piece of art. Hmmm...not my idea of a good combination, my opinion. Overlooking the lack of aesthetics in the process of "mounting" canvas, the Masonite route would seem to be the last resort perhaps.
And another note to Ernst: About 5 years ago I did actually mount a couple of canvases with my cold mount laminator, on the wish of a customer. The mount was on acid free mount board, size approximately 30x15. About 4 months following the completion of that job the customer returned the canvases, as they had begun to release from the board. To some extent that did not surprise me. After I had successfully peeled that canvases from the boards I sent him to a framer I know who uses thermal mount materials, since I thought that would likely provide a better bond, due to the fact that the adhesive actually melts and fills the valleys in the canvas weave to some extent. As far as I know there has never been any further issue with those two "mounted" canvases. Therefore Ernst, I would suggest that you perhaps not waste time with the cold laminator for canvas. Just saying.
Gary
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And another note to Ernst: About 5 years ago I did actually mount a couple of canvases with my cold mount laminator, on the wish of a customer. The mount was on acid free mount board, size approximately 30x15. About 4 months following the completion of that job the customer returned the canvases, as they had begun to release from the board. To some extent that did not surprise me. After I had successfully peeled that canvases from the boards I sent him to a framer I know who uses thermal mount materials, since I thought that would likely provide a better bond, due to the fact that the adhesive actually melts and fills the valleys in the canvas weave to some extent. As far as I know there has never been any further issue with those two "mounted" canvases. Therefore Ernst, I would suggest that you perhaps not waste time with the cold laminator for canvas. Just saying.
Gary
Thank you Gary,
Using a fluid glue with the Tyvek media should work but I have to make proofs, the glue might break through the Tyvek. I have some samples with canvas and bookbinders glue used in a vacuum frame and that works well but canvas is way thicker. The curing goes fast as well due to the vacuum I guess. On the other hand all kinds of matte and glossy papers can be mounted on DiBond and polystyreen with the cold laminator, the thick matte papers with a thicker Zenith dual sided. No problems reported here.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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I asked a question earlier about mounting an 7ft by almost 3 ft on a board. just to see the replies
However I have over the past 25 years used a heated thermal mount unit for mounting many different things. The unique thing about canvas is that you never know how it actutally will stick to board. One of the basic things to remember the finer the canvas material the better it should work as a larger proportion of the canvas will stick to the board, while a very rough canvas will because of the deep valley will not stick as well as a smaller percentage of the actual canvas will touch the board with glue sto the board. I know someone will say the pressure of the press will solve this? sometimes it will sometimes it will not....????
same thing applies to water color papers mounted to a board. the finer the texture the better it sticks. rough paper will start to rise after a while.
cheers elo
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Canvas on Gatorboard with Miracle Muck.
Other then a little twisting due to moisture being only added to one side it is by far our #1 seller.
Do them by the hundreds for commercial environments.
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In regards to using heat mount materials with canvas, the important thing is to get a thick layer of the adhesive that can flow deeply into the canvas as heat is applied.
One way is to use multiple layers of Fusion 4000 or a similar tissues that are sheets of pure glue with no carrier paper. Since it melts and flows it can be piled up haphazardly with both large sheets or torn up bits and pieces. As long as there's enough of it, and heat is applied long enough so it flows into the canvas, you're good to go. IMHO three layers is minimum for canvas if you want a long term bond. As with any new attachment method, one should test to see how easily artwork can be pulled away from the backing. If the media pulls away with large parts of the backing sticking to it, that's good.
Peronally, I dislike the way heat mounting flattens the canvas texture. For this reason I prefer the good old wet Miracle Muck technique. I have Muck mounted canvases more than 13 years old that are still perfectly attached to their Gator even at the edges.
FWIW dry drymount adhesive and wet glues like Muck are basically the same stuff. You can roll a thick layer of Muck on some Gator, let it dry, then heat mount a canvas on top.
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I agree that the heat mounting press flattens the canvas texture..... not nice. one of the reasons I have not used the heat press for canvas for some years.