Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: NBP on March 06, 2008, 08:11:04 am
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Well, there's another nail in the coffin of photographic freedom in the UK and essentially, a green light for a surge in harassment towards those of us out and about with camera's.
[attachment=5461:attachment]
Thank's for that, London Metropolitan Police.
(athough this alternative is available, if you feel like doing a bit of ad busting )
[attachment=5460:attachment]
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Or just "report" anyone you see taking any photo anywhere and soon the police will give up under the massive amount of paperwork you're just made for them.
Here in Ottawa there were posters on bus stops telling us, if I remember rightly, something very vague, like "report anything strange". It's blinkin ludicrous.
Graeme
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"report anything strange". It's blinkin ludicrous.
Graeme
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Isn't it.
So police muppets, could you kindly supply us with a list of what's 'normal' then?
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I can imagine every Nikon user reporting every Canon user, and vise vera. The silly season is surely in full swing.
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That is exactly the same kind of stupidity that causes normal people to be shot in the tube by paranoid and mentally disturbed policemen.
So now they want to spread paranoia well beyond their circle and soon there will be witches flying around (and coupling with the devil disguised as a black cat) and plague spreaders everywhere. Somebody will propose a law to send suspected people to the stake unless proved not guilty.
They will call it "the patriotic stake act".
I cannot believe how stupid people can be in the XXI century. And the worse is, this kind of mentality, if accepted, will warrant an enormous compression of the civilization conquests of these last two centuries and a half, for "security reasons".
Disgusting.
Cheers
Fabrizio
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[attachment=5461:attachment]
Thank's for that, London Metropolitan Police.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is exactly the sort of thing that large buearcratic organizations need to do so it appears that they are doing something. Remember the soldiers at US airports after 9/11? This did not increase security but looked like it increased security. For some reason large organizations prefer the illusion of something instead of actually doing something. I guess because it is easier.
Tom
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There are a number of parodies of this poster doing the rounds. The latest concerns HDR and is similar to the flicker one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/airchinapilot/2312975136/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/airchinapilot/2312975136/)
Lets not get too paranoid
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Remember the soldiers at US airports after 9/11? This did not increase security but looked like it increased security. Tom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tom,
How do you know they didn't "increase security?" Maybe other 9/11-style hijackers were deterred by them. I think it's presumptuous of you to insist they didn't. If you'd been to Germany in the 90's, you would have seen more military security in places like Frankfurt airport than we had in US airports even around 9/11. Did they prevent any attacks? Hard to know. I'd say the soldiers did at least as much to prevent attacks as the ticket agents asking us if we packed our own bags.
But your larger point is well taken. Anyone with common sense would report something they believed to be suspicious, whether or not there was some poster telling them to do so. It seems pretty silly to suggest that anyone taking pictures might be casing an attack site. What should not arouse suspicion? A person taking pictures of friends perhaps? Although it's pretty common for clandetsine agents to pose as tourists, so as not to arouse suspicions while taking photos of government buildings and so forth. The poster is useless, and a waste of priting resources.
Wes
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Lets not get too paranoid
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oooh, the Metropolitan police won't like that, chappers.
They want you to live in fear & suspicion goddamnit!!
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Anyone with common sense would report something they believed to be suspicious
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The problem is that unfortunately, a large percentage of the public don't really do common sense very well.
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The problem is that unfortunately, a large percentage of the public don't really do common sense very well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Someone once said that the problem with common sense is that it isn't very common.
I think we can all agree that the poster is unlikely to promote its growth either.
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Whilst this poster could be grounds for worrying, I was in London in early January and everyone and their dog had a camera of some sort. The City is full of tourists and locals taking pictures of everything all the time. I never even got a funny look shooting candids with an slr, people are used to it.
I can't imagine that many people will bother nor have the time to report people taking photographs.
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Nothing new under the sun.
When I still lived in Scotland I had a client called the Clydesdale Bank, for whom I did quite a lot of ads via their ad agency. One fine day I was across the road from one of the branches trying to figure out how best to shoot something for them. Of course, a harrassed person came rushing over to ask me what I was about.
The point is, this happened well before 1981 when I left the country.
And yes, I can well understand the reasons for their worry. Crime has always been with us and where there´s money there will be opportunity for someone else to try and relieve them of the stress of having it.
This same blind expression of security hatred was being driven round and round LuLa in relationship to Heathrow Airport not a hundred years ago. Truth to tell, I never know for sure if these people who wet their knickers about it are simply trying to articulate some kind of machismo, some defiance of death, or just happen to be challenged in the imagination department. I am happy to go along with security needs, if only because they are at least an attempt to do something positive for MY safety, even whilst I know that a suicide yoyo is not going to be deterred from pressing the contacts together if challenged. Somehow, it seems more comforting to be blown to bits in an airport than up in the air. Funny, that.
Ciao - Rob C
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I am happy to go along with security needs, if only because they are at least an attempt to do something positive for MY safety
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry, but that's got to one of the most naive sentences I've read in quite a while.
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About 9 months after 9/11, I was on a work-related trip to northern California. One afternoon, I came upon an interesting roller coaster. It was almost sunset and the park had already closed, so I couldn't get in to shoot it up close. I eventually found a nice spot to shoot it from an empty parking lot, and set up one of my Hasselblads.
Just as I tripped the shutter, a security guard in a mini pickup drove up and started interogating me. Somehow, I don't see any of Osama Bin Laden's minions seizing upon a nefarious plan to blow up a roller coaster, much less surveiling it with a vintage Hasselblad, but I nevertheless poltitely entertained his questions. He proceeded to lecture me about how there was no way he was going to let me take a picture of that thing "given the current siuation."
Eventually I grew weary of the exchange, and pulled out my identification that proved I was chief of homeland security training for a large national intelligence agency. He told me that he could probably let me go, but that I had better not try to take any more pictures of his precious roller coaster.
I often used that incident later in my courses, as an example of poor security thinking.
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Eventually I grew weary of the exchange, and pulled out my identification that proved I was chief of homeland security training for a large national intelligence agency. He told me that he could probably let me go, but that I had better not try to take any more pictures of his precious roller coaster.
I often used that incident later in my courses, as an example of poor security thinking.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How do you know he wasn't a terrorist trying to determine whether you would make a good kidnap victim? Whilst you were politely providing responses to his questions the hunter was becoming the hunted.
Never give more information than is absolutely essential to someone you don't know.
Suggest you lock the door and hide under the duvet.
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Sorry, but that's got to one of the most naive sentences I've read in quite a while.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Innocently, I´m happy to have made your cynical day.
Rob C
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The City is full of tourists and locals taking pictures of everything all the time. I never even got a funny look shooting candids with an slr, people are used to it.
I can't imagine that many people will bother nor have the time to report people taking photographs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The funny thing is that the imagined terrorist who needs to take pictures would do so with a point & shoot or with a portable phone, and with a couple of friends. He will do what everybody else is doing. Nobody will rush to him. Nobody will report his behaviour.
For 99% of people (especially including policemen) "suspicious" behaviour means "somehow different". If you do something different than you are a suspect.
If you take the same picture of the airport with a tripod, you are a suspect.
If you take out and use your spot lightmeter you are a suspect.
If you study your composition more than 2 seconds, you are a suspect.
If you carry a bag or some suspiciously full (of lenses) pockets on your vest, you are a suspect.
You are a suspect for no other reason that you do something "different", regardless of how your behaviour might be connected to any crime.
Just to give you an example, I have been considered a suspect for looking at night constellations (you have to reach some place without streetlamp and cars headlamp, suspicious behaviour) and for looking for/at foxes near where I live (you have to drive your car very slowly at 2 or 3 o' clock at night, what could be more suspicious?).
The ordinary policemen is not trained to anything else than "different behaviour" = "suspicious behaviour".
That's easy because "different" is understandable by any dog whereas "suspicious" requires turning the brain on. Besides, policemen like simple rules (however senseless) because they feel their bottom is better covered.
The result is that we are LESS secure with this kind of thinking and this kind of behaviour.
To give you another example, I was once in front of the synagogue with a tripod. A motorist stopped for a second and really stared at me with hate (I could not believe eyes could tell "hate" so well). A policemen came immediately after and prevented me from taking pictures. During this, everybody around was taking pictures with their point & shoot.
I was there again a few days ago, and I took four nice pictures. Free hand.
I could go there twenty days in a row and take twenty series of pictures without the least problem. I am sure if I go there with a tripod I am immediately questioned.
The average terrorist does not need to be a genius to overcome the zeal of the average policeman for sure.
Cheers
Fabrizio
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How do you know he wasn't a terrorist trying to determine whether you would make a good kidnap victim?
Have you ever seen the movie "The Untouchables"? I'm thinking of the scene where Kevin Costner tells Sean Connery he's a cop, and Connery believes him. Very funny.
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"Redeye advises all photographers to resist any urges to take odd photographs, or take normal photographs but in an odd way. We will shortly be arranging workshops by leading actors on how not to appear odd. If you have any doubts about whether you seem odd, we suggest you seek the opinion of a friend or colleague before considering reporting yourself to the hotline. The safest option is always to lock your camera away, and stay indoors behind net curtains until any odd feelings subside."
Redeye, the Photography Network, is based in North West England. It aims to make life easier for photographers and photography in the region and beyond, by providing information, opportunities, events, training and professional development. It is a voluntary sector non profit company. Anyone can become a subscriber free of charge.
Redeye Website (http://www.redeye.org.uk/redeye/default.asp)
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with all this terrorism thing and the muslim extremists in the news here in the uk etc the old bill is always jumpy
watch out if you are a photographer with a beard and are in london.
any photographers with a beard here in london at the moment and look a bit like a muslim extremist?
same goes for skinheads taking pics of mosques!
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with all this terrorism thing and the muslim extremists in the news here in the uk etc the old bill is always jumpy
watch out if you are a photographer with a beard and are in london.
any photographers with a beard here in london at the moment and look a bit like a muslim extremist?
same goes for skinheads taking pics of mosques!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180250\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Right, ah yes. Muslims with a beard = extremist looky likey - is that what your rather incoherent comment is clutching at, papa v2.0?
Maybe you'd like to illustrate your post with some useful pictorial guides for us as to what Muslim extemists look like - perhaps it would help so we don't unwittingly leave the house looking like one.
Jeez
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Right, ah yes. Muslims with a beard = extremist looky likey - is that what your rather incoherent comment is clutching at, papa v2.0?
Maybe you'd like to illustrate your post with some useful pictorial guides for us as to what Muslim extemists look like - perhaps it would help so we don't unwittingly leave the house looking like one.
Jeez
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
? It makes perfect sense. The police in England (and elseware) are so paranoid about Muslims after 9.11 that if you go out looking even slightly like the stereotypical Muslim, chances are you'll have issues.
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The police in England (and elseware) are so paranoid about Muslims after 9.11 that if you go out looking even slightly like the stereotypical Muslim, chances are you'll have issues.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://www.stjohnshigh.org/~rvigeant/img2.gif)
(just to be pedantic though, I think you might find that it's a post 7/7 situation that the British police are a little more directly concerned over than '9/11')
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(http://www.stjohnshigh.org/~rvigeant/img2.gif)
(just to be pedantic though, I think you might find that it's a post 7/7 situation that the British police are a little more directly concerned over than '9/11')
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was recently asked by a policeman to stop taking candid shots at the Henley agricultural show. I was, I can only assume, taking shots of strategically sensitive steam driven tractors, that, so it seems, could possibly have become at any moment, bedecked by vulnerable children. I had a "What the **** is happening to the world and do I need to go berserk to sort things out" moment.
In the end I decided just to creep away having learned that crime doesn't pay.
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? It makes perfect sense. The police in England (and elseware) are so paranoid about Muslims after 9.11 that if you go out looking even slightly like the stereotypical Muslim, chances are you'll have issues.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks that you got the joke there
i thought that i was alone on that one
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The answer is simple! Flood them with RAW or DNG files and overwhelm their undoubtely puny drives.
Medium format photgraphers of the world unite!
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Hi All
If you want to know how effective all these security measures are, see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPLpHyBrlg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPLpHyBrlg)
Cheers
Tim
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So, after asking the public to be suspicious of anybody taking pictures, it seems that The Met would now like our help....
here (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tourist-snaps-could-hold-key-to-oxford-st-murder-827359.html)
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Thoughtcrime! Dang .. maybe Orwell just got the timing wrong, instead of 1984 it may be more like 2014.
I've also been approached by both security people and in one case a police officer and asked to stop taking pictures within the last month. The cop actually asked me to stop taking pictures of a tree in a public park (!!?!) When I asked him why he didn't have a good response, thought about it for a minute and apologized and told me to carry on. I didn't want to make a big deal of it so I wandered away and kept snapping shots while heading away from him!
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We live in funny world. Here in sweden, the SÄPO (CIA for sweden). Sent out letters to young teenagers that where muslims to corporate with the SÄPO to find terrorists.... This off course made some press attention.
But not yet I had problems with the local police taking photographs. As long I dont take photographs off "secret" miltary bases.
I just tired off this security and watch for suspects. At least in Sweden we have very tough laws to the rights to have private life. But we have trouble with Music/Movie industri trying to force our goverment to start watch the internet for search off copy right violations.
But I am very scared that we will move in same directions that countries have taken. I am pissed if I cant keep my right to privacy. Or my right to photographing without be hassled.
It is just stupid. Google maps. Internet and you have more information you will need without doing the hassle and risk beeing caught as a terrorist. I think there arn´t many places that arn´t on internet.
Some swedish telephone companies have search engines with photos off every street and doors for help finding adresses.
Thou I been hassled both in states and UK for having a camera and using it. But I just played the stupid Swedish tourist card. Thou I must say I am very impressed by the cops in US they are most polite cops I met in the world. Especially the cops in southern states. Maybe helps that I am tourist.
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So, Sunesha, if I get your drift correctly, you have no objections to ripping off musos, but don´t like your own rights (?) challenged? Interesting, but dumb, as the guy in the tin hat might have said from behind the potted plant.
Rob C
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So, Sunesha, if I get your drift correctly, you have no objections to ripping off musos, but don´t like your own rights (?) challenged? Interesting, but dumb, as the guy in the tin hat might have said from behind the potted plant.
Rob C
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I think he used to say "stupid", rather than "dumb", didn't he?
Jeremy
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So, Sunesha, if I get your drift correctly, you have no objections to ripping off musos, but don´t like your own rights (?) challenged? Interesting, but dumb, as the guy in the tin hat might have said from behind the potted plant.
Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=195990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No I think really sick that our SÄPO is sending out letters to people for just belonging to religion. What I think is more scary is how SÄPO know they are muslims. It is against swedish law to register people in that way. But I guess that even little Sweden have bought into the international fear off terrorism. What scares me more it is little reaction from our swedish rulers that are more busy with other things (more publically popular things).
With funny, I mean in a sense I cant understand way things have played out.
At least in my town where 30-40% is muslim, I never have had problems with them. They are very polite and social people. I just feel sorry for my friends. I have a friend that is a Arab. He always joke about he is hated by all. Swedish and other immegrants here in sweden. Because he is a muslim.
What I think is what made this so sick, is that media protray muslims as terrorists. When it is one off biggest religions it rings wrong because more than 1 billion people are muslims. I would dare to say we have other bad guys in other religions too.
I am sorry I should thought out my writing a bit better. After reading my own post I understand it send a mixed message that leave a lot to reader to make out what I mean.
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I think he used to say "stupid", rather than "dumb", didn't he?
Jeremy
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Sorry for my lack off knowledge off the English language.
What's the diffrence beetween stupid and dumb?
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Sorry for my lack off knowledge off the English language.
What's the diffrence beetween stupid and dumb?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Apology quite unnecessary!
It depends if you're English or American (I'm English).
In English, stupid means lacking in intelligence, whereas dumb means silent or unable to talk.
In American, as I understand it, one of the meanings of dumb is indeed stupid.
However, all I was doing was attempting to correct a misquotation.
Jeremy
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Here in New York City, there has been a campaign since 9/11 with signs and posters on buses, trains, stations, etc., that say "If you see something, say something." Last year there were posters showing pictures of eyes (about 12 pairs). The text indicated that "New York has 18 million pairs of eyes. Last year there were many reports of suspicious activity."
There are signs on all bridges prohibiting "use of a camera." But if you go into any NYC bookstore or any of the stands selling tourist items, you can find exquisitely detailed pictures of every bridge, tunnel, monument or important building in the city for $2.98 and up.
I have been stopped numerous times when shooting subjects such as, for example, the gargoyles near the top of the Chrysler building. The police thought I was sneaking terrorist pictures with my stealthy Canon 1D MkII and the very covert-looking 100-400mm lens.
In Philadelphia I was stopped while taking pictures of Independence Hall at night. I was asked what I was shooting. Then I was asked why. When I said the building was pretty at night I was asked for ID. When he saw that my wife (also taking pictures) and I were from NYC we had to explain why we came all the way to Philadelphia to take pictures at night.
Again, even if night pictures of Independence Hall would be of use to terrorists, they can get them at Amazon.com for less than it would cost them to park their car in downtown Philly.
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I think he used to say "stupid", rather than "dumb", didn't he?
Jeremy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can´t say for sure, but I still think I´ll go with "dumb"; sounds more of the era, somehow...
In fact, I think it was "Very interesting, but dumb," but as with everything else that relies on memory, your guess is probably as good as mine. At least you caught the allusion!
Rob C
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This police poster is utter nonsense. Did the 9-11 terrorists spend time taking photos of the inside of aircrafts?
Did they need photos of the WTC in order to execute their plan?
When did photography become the modus operandi of terror?
Just another loss of individual freedom under the guise of anti-terrorism. Orwell is looking more and more prophetic each day.
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Sorry for my lack off knowledge off the English language.
What's the diffrence beetween stupid and dumb?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The difference is tangible and real, yet subtle.
Much like the difference between Bush and Blair.
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Don't quite get this terror thing. I always park in Lot C near LAX - no security there, not likely even cameras. I take video of jets coming in - so close you have to zoom all the way out to wide to get the jet in the frame. Nobody ever said anything to me.
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Don't quite get this terror thing. I always park in Lot C near LAX - no security there, not likely even cameras. I take video of jets coming in - so close you have to zoom all the way out to wide to get the jet in the frame. Nobody ever said anything to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196197\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why the multiple videos of jets? Seen one, you´ve seen ´em all! Bad for your ears, too.
Rob C
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Sorry for my lack off knowledge off the English language.
What's the diffrence beetween stupid and dumb?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Stupid is libellous. Dumb is someone who cannot speak (though it also has a slang meaning of stupid - which would also be libellous). You are better using the word silly which has no legal meaning.
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Stupid is libellous. Dumb is someone who cannot speak (though it also has a slang meaning of stupid - which would also be libellous). You are better using the word silly which has no legal meaning.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196222\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nonsense. "Stupid" has no more of a "legal meaning" (whatever you imagine the significance of that two-word phrase could be) than "dumb" or "silly".
"Silly" could be just as defamatory as "stupid", or indeed "dumb".
On the other hand, as countless posts here and elsewhere ably demonstrate, there are many people in respect of whom the defence of justification would be established without a great deal of effort.
Jeremy
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That is exactly the same kind of stupidity that causes normal people to be shot in the tube by paranoid and mentally disturbed policemen.
So now they want to spread paranoia well beyond their circle and soon there will be witches flying around (and coupling with the devil disguised as a black cat) and plague spreaders everywhere. Somebody will propose a law to send suspected people to the stake unless proved not guilty.
They will call it "the patriotic stake act".
I cannot believe how stupid people can be in the XXI century. And the worse is, this kind of mentality, if accepted, will warrant an enormous compression of the civilization conquests of these last two centuries and a half, for "security reasons".
Disgusting.
Cheers
Fabrizio
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hmmm... "paranoid and mentally disturbed policemen". Is there any other kind?
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Right, ah yes. Muslims with a beard = extremist looky likey - is that what your rather incoherent comment is clutching at, papa v2.0?
Maybe you'd like to illustrate your post with some useful pictorial guides for us as to what Muslim extemists look like - perhaps it would help so we don't unwittingly leave the house looking like one.
Jeez
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oy! From right wing fear mongering to this......
Here we go; the overly pretentious and extremely dim-witted politically correct view rears its ugly head....
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The legislations always have to be accompanied by propaganda, and the propaganda has to be relentless to maintain the agenda. Unfortunately in the U.S., ClearChannel and Infinity have ganged up to control such a large segment of the broadcasting (esp. talk shows) that the propaganda stream is virtually guaranteed for years to come.