Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: stacibeth on February 25, 2008, 07:13:34 pm
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I am doing a little research regarding ts lenses and medium format digital. First, are there any ts lenses for any medium format digital???? and if so, for which camera?? Finally, are they any good, which is the best,
Thanks,
Stacy
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Schneider makes a 55mm PCS lens in Rollei mount which will fit the Hy6 and AFi as well. Never used it but a few forum members here have one so maybe they'll chime in? In any case if its anything like the other schneider lenses that I have tried, it will be very good.
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I've been using a Fuji 680lll for a long time. It has tilt/swing/rise and fall for the front standard only. The range of movements are fairly limited as well as the back standard doesn't have any movements. The range of lenses as well are limited to the widest being a 50 mm. This, along with the front standard movements only keep the camera from having true view camera functionality.
But it's a great camera for what it is, a serviceable quasi replacement for a fully movement realized camera with the added benefit of a SLR design.
The optics seems OK, I think of them being better than my lenses for the Mamiya 645.
And of course, Fuji no longer makes this camera.
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Stacy,
On MF there are a few options. One option is the HARTBLEI 45mm Super-Rotator Tilt Shift Lens http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm (http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm) . This lens will work on the Mamiya 645af and Contax 645Af. We have one and rent it on occasion. It is ok, but not near the quality you would get off of a dedicated solution like the CamboWide or ALPA with a digital lens.
It sells for around $1,000 I think. I will check to see if we have any sample files, if not we should be able to knock out a comparison between a Cambo/Digitar and this lens.
Let me check and I will get back to you.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year
lance@captureintegration.com
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..we should be able to knock out a comparison between a Cambo/Digitar and this lens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177379\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, I'd be interested in seeing that comparison too.
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Thanks so much for all of your responses.
Lance,
That would be great!
Anyone using the new mamiya zd 645?? if so, how is it? and are there any ts lense that will work on it?
Stacy
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Stacy,
I feel there is a rather significant decision to make. That is whether you need tilt AND shift. Shift can be accomplished quite easily, and effectively with several very different camera systems. As mentioned previously, there are several shift options from ALPA, Cambo, Rollei / Leaf / Sinar, Fuji, and Mamiya.
Tilt on the other hand, does not allow near the choices mentioned above. For tilt AND shift, your options very quickly come down to the Fuji GX, Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID with a Tilt/Shift adapter, the soon to be released ALPA 12 Tilt Adapter, and some specialty lens solutions from Hartblei or Zoerk. With all of these the systems, true wide angle capability is difficult to accomplish.
With that being said, the RZ67 Pro IID is often overlooked as a very attractive, and proven camera system for today's digital backs. Not to mention an extensive lens line, with both a dedicated shift (PC) lens as well as a Tilt/Shift + Short barrel lens combination. If you are not in need of extreme wide-angle capability, today's digital backs would be a nice addition to a Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID system.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
I am doing a little research regarding ts lenses and medium format digital. First, are there any ts lenses for any medium format digital???? and if so, for which camera?? Finally, are they any good, which is the best,
Thanks,
Stacy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Jordan,
Just a small correction...The Schneider PCS provides both tilt and shift. See attached image from Rollei lens catalog. The MTF chart for the lens is available here:
http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6011383&size=lg (http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6011383&size=lg)
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the mamiya rz67 pro 11 seems very nice, have you used the ts lens with it, is it pretty good. I currently have the canon 5d with a 24mm ts and find I am still having distorion issues.
s
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Jordan,
Just a small correction...The Schneider PCS provides both tilt and shift.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
what camera will this lens work on??
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Thanks so much for all of your responses.
Lance,
That would be great!
Anyone using the new mamiya zd 645?? if so, how is it? and are there any ts lense that will work on it?
Stacy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i don't shoot with a zd, but there is a mamiya 50 mm f4 shift lens for the afd series cameras
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what camera will this lens work on??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177392\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Rollei 6008, Leaf AFi, Hy6
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Eric,
Thank you for catching that. You are correct, the Schneider PCS is rather unique in that it offers both tilt AND shift on what is now a rather broad range of cameras and digital backs.
Regards,
Jordan
Jordan,
Just a small correction...The Schneider PCS provides both tilt and shift. See attached image from Rollei lens catalog. The MTF chart for the lens is available here:
http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6011383&size=lg (http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6011383&size=lg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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stacibeth,
The Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID with the Tilt/Shift adapter is quite nice. I have to admit, the RZ67 ergonimics are something you would have to get used, especially coming from 35mm DSLRs. It is just diiferent way to shoot, and especially a different type of hand-held photography using the RZ67.
With the newest version of the RZ67 Series, the RZ67 Pro IID, you have the option for cable-free configuration with certain digital backs, via special adapter plates from Mamiya and Leaf. This makes using a digital back quite nice, as it eliminates one more cable from an already awkward camera.
The only downside to the RZ67 Pro IID with a Tilt/Shift adapter is the ability for wide-angle capability. With today's 36x48mm imaging sensors on a 6x7cm platform, even the 75mm short barrel lens becomes quite normal in angle of converage.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
the mamiya rz67 pro 11 seems very nice, have you used the ts lens with it, is it pretty good. I currently have the canon 5d with a 24mm ts and find I am still having distorion issues.
s
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177391\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Rollei 6008, Leaf AFi, Hy6
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=177394\")
Hi Stacy,
look here:
[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22425&view=findpost&p=168532]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=168532[/url]
Greetings
Adina
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Stacy -
Your question is kind of the holy grail of MF cameras. There are some options, few really good portable ones. The reality is that really good T/S exists in large format cameras, and as much as we'd all like it, medium format solutions are but compromises. They are better optical compromises than 35 mm based solutions, but they tend have limits, and weight to go with them.
Nothing in medium format is as economical to buy and as flexible to use in this area as a 4x5 camera. There are some good shift solutions - Alpa, Horseman, Silvestri, but you lose the ability to compose in the viewfinder.
The Fuji and Mamiya solutions are good up to a point, but like the Rollei, limited to a certain few lens options. I bought the Rollei/Schneider 55 PC lens years ago, in search for a lens that allows "live composition" and still gives shift control (it does have tilt, to a modest degree). Its a decent lens, and is fully automatic (exposure wise), which is nice. I don't think much of it handheld, tho, so its tripod based only. And its kind of heavy. While it doesn't get much use, the hunt for the holy grail (see above) has cast an untouchable aura over this lens, and it is part of the family, for better or worse.
Good luck in your hunt. If the need for optics is not too severe, and you can live with reasonable quality levels, the Mamiya options might just work for you. Or the Hartblei. But if you are an optics fiend (need for the two bricks in the far far corner at max shift to be just oh so sharp), then really consider a view camera. They are easier on the budget, and a lot more flexible.
Finding that level of quality and flexibility in MF gets very restrictive and/or pricey. There are also the MF view camera options, like the Rollei Exact or the Linhof, with carefully geared movements. They hold those digital backs very rigidly and are very good, but they are not quite setup for the Sunday jaunt. More for studio work, commercial.
Geoff
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The Mamiya 50mm f/4 shift lens is actually pretty good, much better optically than the Hartblei, which is kind of junky optically and klunky mechanically. As far as tilt corrections go, your only option is in post production. With a 39 mpixel back, the software solution is viable.
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The Mamiya 50mm f/4 shift lens is actually pretty good, much better optically than the Hartblei, which is kind of junky optically and klunky mechanically. As far as tilt corrections go, your only option is in post production. With a 39 mpixel back, the software solution is viable.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, there is another option that is rumored to be forthcoming from Hasselblad by Photokina in September(if not sooner): a dedicated tilt/shift lens or lenses. The expectation is that it will only be usable with the H3D series of cameras, so you may want to take that into account in deciding which MFDB system to buy into. I did.
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Stacy,
On MF there are a few options. One option is the HARTBLEI 45mm Super-Rotator Tilt Shift Lens http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm (http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm) . This lens will work on the Mamiya 645af and Contax 645Af. We have one and rent it on occasion. It is ok, but not near the quality you would get off of a dedicated solution like the CamboWide or ALPA with a digital lens.
It sells for around $1,000 I think. I will check to see if we have any sample files, if not we should be able to knock out a comparison between a Cambo/Digitar and this lens.
Let me check and I will get back to you.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year
lance@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177379\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Forget the Hartblei. It's a waste of time (I have one). Too long and quality poor when shifted.
However: I was just a Focus on Imaging here in UK today, and there is a new compact Cambo (Wide RS) coming in about 8 weeks. I was handling the prototype, and it was pretty good. Also very small and compact, compared with the wide DS.
Allows simultaneous shift in both directions. Asymetrical for maximum shift (i think it was about 25 rise, 15 fall, and same (about 20 or so) for shift left and right.
Put a Schneider 35xl on the front, and the lens stays put while you shift around to your hearts content, with perfect stitching (Schneider 35XL has 90mm image circle at f11, 48x39 sensor needs 60 mm image circle), and the back adapter can be mounted in either orientation!
With a stitched solution (so ability to crop a fair bit), and the quality of the Schneider lenses edge to edge, one line of thinking is that tilt would be unnecessary for most interior shooting. In fact he (Rene Rook) was of the opinion that the last thing you want to do is tilt, cos you start mucking around with the very fine tolerances for the focus.
BTW handled the Silvestri flexcam extensiely today, and good solution if you really want to tilt the lens and shift. Felt the precision of the movements could perhaps do with some refinements. I'm going to pass on this after handlingit.
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I use a P45+ in a Hasselblad V fitting. The Hasselblad Flexbody allows plenty of tilt and about 10mm of shift with the 40mm IF, 60mm, and 100mm lenses that I mainly use.
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The Mamiya 50mm f/4 shift lens is actually pretty good, much better optically than the Hartblei, which is kind of junky optically and klunky mechanically. As far as tilt corrections go, your only option is in post production. With a 39 mpixel back, the software solution is viable.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am interested in that lens actually... because of the shift but also because of the 50mm. With a back like h25/p25 it makes a 34mm equiv. in 35mm.
Do you think it could be a good buy? Have you tried it on MFDB?
thanks
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I am interested in that lens actually... because of the shift but also because of the 50mm. With a back like h25/p25 it makes a 34mm equiv. in 35mm.
Do you think it could be a good buy? Have you tried it on MFDB?
thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178051\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have the 50. It's decent - not stellar- but its real problem is that although sharper it just isn't wide enough compared with the 24 mm Canon shift I was using before. Shifting doesn't help, you just cannot shift it far enough for those vertical architecture shots. There is definitely a need for a wide auto shift lens for the Mamiya system.
Edmund
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No tilt on this solution, but it is unique!
Hasselblad/Zeiss made a 1.4x shifting teleconverter for the Hasselblad V--the 1.4x Perspective Control Mutar.
It throws an even larger than 6x6 image circle, so you can shift with all your lenses from 40mm to 100mm.
A good picture of one is here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4357...s_PC_Mutar.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/435733-DEMO/Hasselblad_20311_DEMO_Zeiss_PC_Mutar.html)
-Brad
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I have the 50. It's decent - not stellar- but its real problem is that although sharper it just isn't wide enough compared with the 24 mm Canon shift I was using before. Shifting doesn't help, you just cannot shift it far enough for those vertical architecture shots. There is definitely a need for a wide auto shift lens for the Mamiya system.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178071\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know. I think considering the AFD system for this sort of work isn't a good solution. I know it would cost a bit more, but hanging your (expensive) back onto a different camera would probably produce much, much better results.
I'm thinking the new cambo, and a Schneider lens. Cost a bit, but it's not like it's got a short shelf life?
Thoughts?
PS I have the 50 as well, and I completely agree with eronald
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I like to use a shift lens as a walkabout for travel, especially night or water shots; the Mamiya 50 doesn't quite cut it, and using an Alpa or equivalent doesn't seem practical. This is one of the cases where 35mm is more flexible than MF, although MF quality is unbeatable.
Edmund
I don't know. I think considering the AFD system for this sort of work isn't a good solution. I know it would cost a bit more, but hanging your (expensive) back onto a different camera would probably produce much, much better results.
I'm thinking the new cambo, and a Schneider lens. Cost a bit, but it's not like it's got a short shelf life?
Thoughts?
PS I have the 50 as well, and I completely agree with eronald
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178074\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I like to use a shift lens as a walkabout for travel, especially night or water shots; the Mamiya 50 doesn't quite cut it, and using an Alpa or equivalent doesn't seem practical. This is one of the cases where 35mm is more flexible than MF, although MF quality is unbeatable.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can understand that, and certainly with regard to both the current Cambo wds, and the (larger) alpa's. Sorry to sound repetitive about this, but this new cambo is about 1/2 the size of the current solution. With a wider schneider (nice couplet!) and back (and presumably a removable viewfinder (assuming no live view)), it would be no clumsier (and would be lighter) than the AFD and a lens.
Mind you, in light of the OP's other questions, I assumed she was talking architecture shooting, but perhaps she wants it for a different application, in which case my contribution is a bit off the mark.
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Hi,
I use the Fuji GX680III, and yes it is no Sinar P3, but it is an excellent camera, even with its "limited" movements, not that that has ever stopped me from getting a shot. Mainly studio product and jewelry. The range of lenses is hardly limited at 18, from 50mm to 500mm, and the ability to use 4x5 lenses with an adapter.
The point is you need to decide what you need, and then see what fits your needs best, for me it was the Fuji, for others it will be different.
Good luck.
Jason Berge
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Rethink the Hartblei : http://www.hartblei.eu (http://www.hartblei.eu) ?
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interesting but at more than 6 tho the 40mm I would like to see how it perform...
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Rethink the Hartblei : http://www.hartblei.eu (http://www.hartblei.eu) ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178152\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No mention of image circle though in their literature. I wonder is the the target market small format, rather than medium.
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as I see it, the new zeiss/hartblei are for 35mm only, as the imagecircle of those lenses wouldn't cover hardly any shifts
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No tilt on this solution, but it is unique!
Hasselblad/Zeiss made a 1.4x shifting teleconverter for the Hasselblad V--the 1.4x Perspective Control Mutar.
It throws an even larger than 6x6 image circle, so you can shift with all your lenses from 40mm to 100mm.
A good picture of one is here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4357...s_PC_Mutar.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/435733-DEMO/Hasselblad_20311_DEMO_Zeiss_PC_Mutar.html)
I talked with Hasselblad today and found out that this solution has been discontinued for approximately 5 years. There are some on E-Bay, but the bids keep climbing.
I know that this is a DSLR on the back end, but is an interesting solution from Cambo called the X-2:
http://www.captureintegration.com/solution...al-view-camera/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/solutions/digital-view-camera/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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No tilt on this solution, but it is unique!
Hasselblad/Zeiss made a 1.4x shifting teleconverter for the Hasselblad V--the 1.4x Perspective Control Mutar.
It throws an even larger than 6x6 image circle, so you can shift with all your lenses from 40mm to 100mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's interesting. Unfortunate that it is a 1.4x though. That makes the shortest focal length possible a 56mm. I'm assuming they made it a converter in order to increase the image circle for the 6x6 back.
It seems like they could easily make a version of their HC converter with a little rise ability as we are shooting a sub 6x45 size chip with a full 6x6 lens. A nice 40mm with a shift adapter! Come on Hassleblad. Instead they will wait for way too long, then release a tilt shift lens that costs more than an alpa and breaks ever time you look at it wrong (yes, I own a blad, and yes the thing malfunctions constantly. Anyone want to trade their p45 for my 2 month old H3D?).
Or you could put the 30 fisheye on it. That would screw with my head! Shift on a fisheye.
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I am doing a little research regarding ts lenses and medium format digital. First, are there any ts lenses for any medium format digital???? and if so, for which camera?? Finally, are they any good, which is the best,
Thanks,
Stacy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not a lens nor very portable but I beleive Novoflex makes a bellow system that allows T/S similar to Large Format for the Medium and 35mm formats. They also have lenses for the system. Pretty expensive if I remember correctly but looked very cool.
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Was just looking at this http://www.horsemanusa.com/vcc_SpAc.html (http://www.horsemanusa.com/vcc_SpAc.html)
Think this has come up before in other threads. Has anyone tried it? I see that it comes in a Mamiya 645 mount.
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Was just looking at this http://www.horsemanusa.com/vcc_SpAc.html (http://www.horsemanusa.com/vcc_SpAc.html)
Think this has come up before in other threads. Has anyone tried it? I see that it comes in a Mamiya 645 mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Things like this seem to be suitable for medium tele and macro work, but wide angle is an unsolved problem - one either needs to give up the SLR composition or the ability to shift.
When decent back LCDs and Liveview finally come to the backs the Alpa-type solutions will become much more usable in the field.
Edmund
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Things like this seem to be suitable for medium tele and macro work, but wide angle is an unsolved problem - one either needs to give up the SLR composition or the ability to shift.
When decent back LCDs and Liveview finally come to the backs the Alpa-type solutions will become much more usable in the field.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think liveview makes any difference in the field (well, in domestic and commercial buildings) since checking composition and lighting and detail still benefits from a larger calibrated notebook, used in a tethered shooting mode. About all the use of a small screen on the back is good for, is showing the histogram to check exposure.
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I don't think liveview makes any difference in the field (well, in domestic and commercial buildings) since checking composition and lighting and detail still benefits from a larger calibrated notebook, used in a tethered shooting mode. About all the use of a small screen on the back is good for, is showing the histogram to check exposure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Try the live view on the Nikon D3 and its zooming facility and I think you would reconsider that post
- of course at 12mp the D3 is no good for high really quality architecture but that screen on a digiback would make an alpa a go-er for nearly everything IMO
S
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Yeah.. with that screen on a MFDB the Alpa would become the killer P&S
BTW. I know a guy that made a custom version of a T&S lens for the Rollei 6000 series. He is still waiting to receive a bust lens from Hasselblad to build one proto for the H as well (needs the shutter).
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Try the live view on the Nikon D3 and its zooming facility and I think you would reconsider that post
- of course at 12mp the D3 is no good for high really quality architecture but that screen on a digiback would make an alpa a go-er for nearly everything IMO
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sam, I think you answered my post for me. Have you some solution for feeding the output from my Phase through a Nikon D3, so I can use it's screen?
Big smiles!
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Gidday,
Came across this website.
http://www.kapturegroup.com/true/wide.html (http://www.kapturegroup.com/true/wide.html)
Cheers
Simon
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I used to own one and have used it for quite a while. Together with the 85PC Nikkor & the 28shift as well as the 35shift. (naturally I also used other F-mount lenses like the Zeiss ZF)
Pity the new PC lenses (24, 45) probably cannot be used on this one.
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Did someone already mentioned the Silvestri Flexicam? http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti...rodotti_eng.htm (http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti_eng/prodotti_eng.htm)
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Hartblei, I have one. The only purpose of this being to create images with tilted focal plane.
Unusable as an architectural shift lens, you might as well use an DSLR with a shift lens, actually the Canon 1DsII with TS-E 24 is probably sharper.
Nice as an effect though.
Really, you can go through this debate a hundred times, but ask anyone who actually does shift photography with an MFDB and there is really only one or two ways to do it with wide angle lenses without going insane.
1) Cambo (expensive)
2) Alpa (even more expensive, but you can safely stand on them).
Ok, or strange one off cameras made by engineers in white coats with 3 customers...
and lenses
3) Schneider (expensive)
4) Rodenstock (stupefyingly expensive)
Making a TS lens that is really sharp for an MF back is like pushing the dialithium crystals further than ever before. 'Ye canna beat the laws 'o' physics cap'n'
Own up. How many professional architectural or interior photographers use a Silvestri. Now how many use its tilt capability. I suspect the answer is a number as broad as its long with a hole in the middle.
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Just an update .... picked up a used Schneider 55mm PCS lens for my Rollei 6008 today. I have only taken a couple quick shots with it but I can already tell this is one very sharp lens - and distortion is very low. May have a bit of flare but I don't have a hood for it yet. Seems very impressive. Just noticed that it does 12mm shift up, 10mm down and 11mm to the sides.
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Just an update .... picked up a used Schneider 55mm PCS lens for my Rollei 6008 today. I have only taken a couple quick shots with it but I can already tell this is one very sharp lens - and distortion is very low. May have a bit of flare but I don't have a hood for it yet. Seems very impressive. Just noticed that it does 12mm shift up, 10mm down and 11mm to the sides.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183149\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How much did this cost?
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How much did this cost?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not as much as you might think, but still a bit more than the Hartblei or Mamiya RZ 75mm.
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Not as much as you might think, but still a bit more than the Hartblei or Mamiya RZ 75mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Congrats, Eric!
I'd love to see some images from this lens.
Don't buy up *all* the good glass--save some for the rest of us, OK?
Take care,
Brad