Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dseelig on January 27, 2008, 11:19:37 am
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WELL after reading as much as I could I am about to buy it. Anyone who has used one think I should buy a canon or epson instead. Thanks David PS I could get by right now with a 17 inch printer but I do not want to take a grand hit later to replace. thanks in advance David
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WELL after reading as mcha s I could I am about to buy it. Anyone who has used one think I should buy a canon or epson instead. Thanks David PS I could get by right now with a 17 inch printer but I do not wan to take a grand hit later to replace. thanks in advance David
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I think you should buy an Epson Pro 3800. :-)
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WELL after reading as much as I could I am about to buy it. Anyone who has used one think I should buy a canon or epson instead.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=169956\")
I think you should buy a Canon iPF6100
[a href=\"http://canonipf.wikispaces.com]http://canonipf.wikispaces.com[/url]
--John
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(1) I suppose the only fair and impartial statement would be that each of the printers, and manufacturers, has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. So you need to decide on your own.
(2) How many of the forum participants have personally owned and used both the Z3100, and one of the other printers that they might recommend? The only valid and honest comment would be from someone who has owned and used both the Z3100 and one of the current Epson or Canon printers.
For full disclosure, I have not. My previous printer was an Epson 4000, and my comments below on Epson are based on that, so take them with a grain of salt since the 4000 is ancient by today's standards.
(3) One of the few who has actually owns and used all three manufacturers, at least that I know of, is Michael Reichmann. You might consider writing to him off line and see if he'll privately respond to you. Beware of those who get paid by any of the manufacturers to do reviews or seminars, or get free printers for doing so. Some of them have posted here in the past. Michael, to my knowledge, doesn't belong in either category. I may not always agree with his views, but at least he is not paid by a manufacturer or given free equipment and is thus impartial.
(4) But you need to provide Michael with more information that you provided here. To say "talk me out of it" is not very informative. What do you print? What sizes? How often do you actually print really large to need a 24" printer? The Z3100 is VERY LARGE. You need a separate wall in a separate room to house it.
How often do you use or try other papers? If not very often, then the on-board spectro in the Z3100 might be less important in your personal evaluation. But then you need to buy a separate and really good profiling package, and the good ones aren't cheap. Compare the price of a printer, plus such a package, to the Z3100 after subtracting any rebates that may still be offered
Do you print from rolls or sheets? If from photo sheets, especially 17x22 and smaller, then you look at a printer with paper cassette that handles those sizes. If from heavy and thick cotton sheets, then all of the printers will only allow you to load one at a time and are pretty much equal in that regard. Some may load sheets slightly better than others.
(5) If you search under my user name, you will find that I led a personal crusade against HP many months ago. So it is quite a change for me to now recommend HP. Their level of support is probably the best I have ever experienced from a large company, and they have won me over. That is an important factor for you to consider. Does Canon, to use one example, stand behind their products and offer that level of service? Never owned a Canon, so I will let John and others comment on that
(6) The case for the Z3100, very briefly:
* great customer service, as noted above
* I think it does a great job of printing -- the colors are more vibrant than my old 4000, especially the blues. The reds are very good IMHO, but it is true that some landscape prints from the 4000 had slightly, very slightly, stronger reds than the Z3100. Others can comment, but I think HP has gone a long way to fixing the issue with the reds. For me, doing landscapes, the Z3100 does a great job with all colors. Others, who make more exacting prints, might have a different view, and then the question is what printers they have personally used and would recommend instead
* The on-board spectro is a delight. I'm glad I no longer have to do manual profiling of papers. I use the APS. It is not critical that you buy that, but I believe the newer models of the Z3100 include the APS in a package deal. The APS, IMHO, is equal to and superior to the last $1000 Xrite package I purchased
* The level of technical documentation is simply outstanding. I have an entire folder on my hard drive consisting of 120 mb and over 50 documents. HP actually tells us what the various driver settings mean in terms of head height, ink delivery, etc. Does Epson or Canon do that? Epson certainly did not do so with the 4000. They only provided settings for their own papers, and I was always mystified as to which Epson paper setting to use with a third party paper. As I have posted here, I think HP can improve those documents. But they are already far better than what Epson provides, at least based upon my 4000. But judge for yourself -- download the docs from the manufacturers to see how much detail they provide about their settings and drivers. Note -- in the case of HP I am not referring to the manual but tech support docs that have been released and updated since that time
* There is an issue with ink building up on one specific print head. After nine months, it took me about an hour to clean the print heads. I don't think that is a big deal. But the issue of ink on the heads is something that HP is looking at, because, as I have told them, it shouldn't be happening on a $4000 printer that I use infrequently
* On the other hand, I have never had a print head clog up. The 4000 was NOTORIOUS for that. What is the record of the current generation of Epson and Canon printers? HP has, at least, solved that.
* The issue of marks rollers and star wheels seems to impact some Z3100 owners a lot; for some it is an inconsistent and infrequent problem; and for some it never happens at all. It is important to note that Epson has their own problems with marks with star wheels. HP will have a fix available in three to six months, in any case.
* Software. Well, I would stay away from Vista with any printer and for any use. See my posting on that. The basic problem is Vista more than it is HP.
If you using XP or a Mac then any of the printers should be about the same -- but you need to read the postings.
Candidly, I rarely read any of the postings in this forum on Canon or Epson, for the simple reason that I don't own one! (Aside from my original 4000 that I finally plan on selling for some cheap price just to get it out of here.)
I hope that helps
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HI Everyone
Well I do use a mac so the vista issue is a non issue for me. I print from landscape to rock and roll stars I shoot for an arena. I was all set to just get a 17 inch model then I kept hearing this was the best thing out there . With the rebate about to end I need to make a decision. Yes I try all kinds of papers, for different effects. I am a photographer not a hobbyist. I live in Idaho and if hp has service centers here in boise I am 2 hour drive away that might end my conversation about this also canons 600 dollar heads scare me.My website is www.davidseelig.com and yes I am having problems with it. I do want 24 inch for the future availble I have had an epson 7600 and the ink switching was not fun.thanks David
(1) I suppose the only fair and impartial statement would be that each of the printers, and manufacturers, has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. So you need to decide on your own.
(2) How many of the forum participants have personally owned and used both the Z3100, and one of the other printers that they might recommend? The only valid and honest comment would be from someone who has owned and used both the Z3100 and one of the current Epson or Canon printers.
For full disclosure, I have not. My previous printer was an Epson 4000, and my comments below on Epson are based on that, so take them with a grain of salt since the 4000 is ancient by today's standards.
(3) One of the few who has actually owns and used all three manufacturers, at least that I know of, is Michael Reichmann. You might consider writing to him off line and see if he'll privately respond to you. Beware of those who get paid by any of the manufacturers to do reviews or seminars, or get free printers for doing so. Some of them have posted here in the past. Michael, to my knowledge, doesn't belong in either category. I may not always agree with his views, but at least he is not paid by a manufacturer or given free equipment and is thus impartial.
(4) But you need to provide Michael with more information that you provided here. To say "talk me out of it" is not very informative. What do you print? What sizes? How often do you actually print really large to need a 24" printer? The Z3100 is VERY LARGE. You need a separate wall in a separate room to house it.
How often do you use or try other papers? If not very often, then the on-board spectro in the Z3100 might be less important in your personal evaluation. But then you need to buy a separate and really good profiling package, and the good ones aren't cheap. Compare the price of a printer, plus such a package, to the Z3100 after subtracting any rebates that may still be offered
Do you print from rolls or sheets? If from photo sheets, especially 17x22 and smaller, then you look at a printer with paper cassette that handles those sizes. If from heavy and thick cotton sheets, then all of the printers will only allow you to load one at a time and are pretty much equal in that regard. Some may load sheets slightly better than others.
(5) If you search under my user name, you will find that I led a personal crusade against HP many months ago. So it is quite a change for me to now recommend HP. Their level of support is probably the best I have ever experienced from a large company, and they have won me over. That is an important factor for you to consider. Does Canon, to use one example, stand behind their products and offer that level of service? Never owned a Canon, so I will let John and others comment on that
(6) The case for the Z3100, very briefly:
* great customer service, as noted above
* I think it does a great job of printing -- the colors are more vibrant than my old 4000, especially the blues. The reds are very good IMHO, but it is true that some landscape prints from the 4000 had slightly, very slightly, stronger reds than the Z3100. Others can comment, but I think HP has gone a long way to fixing the issue with the reds. For me, doing landscapes, the Z3100 does a great job with all colors. Others, who make more exacting prints, might have a different view, and then the question is what printers they have personally used and would recommend instead
* The on-board spectro is a delight. I'm glad I no longer have to do manual profiling of papers. I use the APS. It is not critical that you buy that, but I believe the newer models of the Z3100 include the APS in a package deal. The APS, IMHO, is equal to and superior to the last $1000 Xrite package I purchased
* The level of technical documentation is simply outstanding. I have an entire folder on my hard drive consisting of 120 mb and over 50 documents. HP actually tells us what the various driver settings mean in terms of head height, ink delivery, etc. Does Epson or Canon do that? Epson certainly did not do so with the 4000. They only provided settings for their own papers, and I was always mystified as to which Epson paper setting to use with a third party paper. As I have posted here, I think HP can improve those documents. But they are already far better than what Epson provides, at least based upon my 4000. But judge for yourself -- download the docs from the manufacturers to see how much detail they provide about their settings and drivers. Note -- in the case of HP I am not referring to the manual but tech support docs that have been released and updated since that time
* There is an issue with ink building up on one specific print head. After nine months, it took me about an hour to clean the print heads. I don't think that is a big deal. But the issue of ink on the heads is something that HP is looking at, because, as I have told them, it shouldn't be happening on a $4000 printer that I use infrequently
* On the other hand, I have never had a print head clog up. The 4000 was NOTORIOUS for that. What is the record of the current generation of Epson and Canon printers? HP has, at least, solved that.
* The issue of marks rollers and star wheels seems to impact some Z3100 owners a lot; for some it is an inconsistent and infrequent problem; and for some it never happens at all. It is important to note that Epson has their own problems with marks with star wheels. HP will have a fix available in three to six months, in any case.
* Software. Well, I would stay away from Vista with any printer and for any use. See my posting on that. The basic problem is Vista more than it is HP.
If you using XP or a Mac then any of the printers should be about the same -- but you need to read the postings.
Candidly, I rarely read any of the postings in this forum on Canon or Epson, for the simple reason that I don't own one! (Aside from my original 4000 that I finally plan on selling for some cheap price just to get it out of here.)
I hope that helps
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If you can't wait for whatever Epson has up their sleve in the 24 inch range than you will want the HP or Canon.
HP and Canon have no cloging issues.
The Canon has excellent support (every complaint I've ever had was answered with an immediate replacement part the next day no questions asked.) My expeience with the HP 130nr was positive as well though they were a bit more tight with qualifications of sending parts etc.
I've owned Epson 4000, 9600, R1800, HP Designjet 130nr, Canon ipf8000 and Canon ipf9100, so I have a little experience with all the brands.
I've always loved the Epson but would never buy it now untl the clogging issues are fully addressed.
I view the Canon as the machine to buy if you do alot of prints and want them printed quickly. The Canon runs circles around the others as far as speed and the 6100 is among the best print qualify of any printer. Black and White is excellent and color gamut is also about the best. Only thing that is slightly better would be the 11880 but I don't think you're looking for a 64 inch printer. Epson will release a similar printer is the 24 inch size at some point soon (i think.)
You will want to get a custom profiling package with the Canon and I recommend starting with the PrintFixPro before moving to something more expensive.
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WELL after reading as much as I could I am about to buy it. Anyone who has used one think I should buy a canon or epson instead. Thanks David PS I could get by right now with a 17 inch printer but I do not want to take a grand hit later to replace. thanks in advance David
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I can't talk you into or out of buying anything. I'm not really sure what you're looking to print.
I can say that I have the 24" Z3100 base unit + APS and I'm very pleased with the printer.
I was originally going to buy an Epson 9800 but then I thought about the black changeovers and buying a Gretag/x-rite spectro because I wanted custom profiles and felt that the Z3100 offered the best of all worlds. The Gloss Enhancer was an added bonus for me.
I've never been disappointed in prints from Epsons but felt that the Z produced prints of equal quality with all the conveniences I was looking for.
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I live in Idaho and if hp has service centers here in boise I am 2 hour drive away that might end my conversation about this also canons 600 dollar heads scare me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While that is a potential issue, Canon now has a one year warranty on the printheads (up to a certain volume of ink). There have only been about 4 reports of failed printheads to the Wiki, all replaced under warranty by Canon without questions. While it is possible you could run into a failed printhead, you can also get failures of different kinds on the Epson/HP printers outside their one year warranty that could be very expensive.
--John
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HI Everyone
I live in Idaho and if hp has service centers here in boise I am 2 hour drive away that might end my conversation[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
From my experience you need not worry about the distance. I live in Casper, Wyoming (for reasons inexplicable even to me); the nearest HP support center is 3 - 4 hours away, but that hasn't stopped HP from sending someone out within 24 hours.
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It seems like people are into these printers like a canon versus nikon debate. I am still debating this as many have made good points about the canons and there are some hardware problems with the hp. I do wonder which is more ecopnimical to run wasted ink and ink per print anyone know? thanks ot everyone here for helping me . David
From my experience you need not worry about the distance. I live in Casper, Wyoming (for reasons inexplicable even to me); the nearest HP support center is 3 - 4 hours away, but that hasn't stopped HP from sending someone out within 24 hours.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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While that is a potential issue, Canon now has a one year warranty on the printheads (up to a certain volume of ink). There have only been about 4 reports of failed printheads to the Wiki, all replaced under warranty by Canon without questions. While it is possible you could run into a failed printhead, you can also get failures of different kinds on the Epson/HP printers outside their one year warranty that could be very expensive.
--John
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John, weren't there quite a few problems with an earlier Canon model, and my impression was that support was not very good, leaving owners to fend for themselves. I base that on occasionally reading the Canon threads about eight months ago. In addition, as I recall, there was some part that Canon refused to replace, causing you (I think it was you?) to actually recommend against buying Canon at that time?
Is my summary remotely accurate? If so, have these issues all been resolved, and is Canon now more responsive to their customers?
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WELL after reading as much as I could I am about to buy it. Anyone who has used one think I should buy a canon or epson instead. Thanks David PS I could get by right now with a 17 inch printer but I do not want to take a grand hit later to replace. thanks in advance David
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I have used all 3. I currently own an ipf6100, an 11880, a 3800, have used a 9880 (briefly), and have had a z3100 for a few weeks on trade trial.
I really wanted a z3100, but after profiling it myself as well as generating machine profiles, I didn't like the output as well as my 9800. That's about when I bought the 3800. All 3 of my current printers produce better prints than my 9800 ... and the differences are apparent.
I feel the 3800 is the best printer for the money if you don't need roll feed. If you need roll feed and mk/pk frequent switches, the Canon ipfx100 series is definitely the winner. The 11880 represents the future of Epson printers, but currently is very difficult to buy and pretty pricey. the Epson x880 printers produce beautiful prints and I like the physical build quality of them better than the canon as well as the straight through paper path design, but ink swapping is an issue.
Please let me qualify this a little, just so my viewpoint is understood. I do almost exclusively color, so I cannot offer opnion on B&W. My current printers all do what I feel is a nice job with B&W. Second, I don't want to appear like I'm knocking this printer ... it has great output, and I'm sure if you buy one it will make great prints. I personally just think the other printers output looks a little better. A little more detail in the shadows, and a little better in light gradations.
my 2 cents
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Wayne are you getting better detail in the shadows in both matte and glossy papers thanks David
I have used all 3. I currently own an ipf6100, an 11880, a 3800, have used a 9880 (briefly), and have had a z3100 for a few weeks on trade trial.
I really wanted a z3100, but after profiling it myself as well as generating machine profiles, I didn't like the output as well as my 9800. That's about when I bought the 3800. All 3 of my current printers produce better prints than my 9800 ... and the differences are apparent.
I feel the 3800 is the best printer for the money if you don't need roll feed. If you need roll feed and mk/pk frequent switches, the Canon ipfx100 series is definitely the winner. The 11880 represents the future of Epson printers, but currently is very difficult to buy and pretty pricey. the Epson x880 printers produce beautiful prints and I like the physical build quality of them better than the canon as well as the straight through paper path design, but ink swapping is an issue.
Please let me qualify this a little, just so my viewpoint is understood. I do almost exclusively color, so I cannot offer opnion on B&W. My current printers all do what I feel is a nice job with B&W. Second, I don't want to appear like I'm knocking this printer ... it has great output, and I'm sure if you buy one it will make great prints. I personally just think the other printers output looks a little better. A little more detail in the shadows, and a little better in light gradations.
my 2 cents
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John, weren't there quite a few problems with an earlier Canon model, and my impression was that support was not very good, leaving owners to fend for themselves. I base that on occasionally reading the Canon threads about eight months ago. In addition, as I recall, there was some part that Canon refused to replace, causing you (I think it was you?) to actually recommend against buying Canon at that time?
Is my summary remotely accurate? If so, have these issues all been resolved, and is Canon now more responsive to their customers?
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You are absolutely correct. Virtually all of the problems reported earlier have been resolved (except for Media Type lockout, a real annoyance). Service is generally considered to be very good at this point (consensus of Wiki reports). There are still some lingering questions about timeliness of service, especially for those that live far from a service technician, but I don't know what the current situation is. If you want a current list of issues, see this page:
[a href=\"http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/Considerations+Before+Buying+This+Printer]http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/Considerati...ng+This+Printer[/url]
Interestingly, when I went to find the above link I had to edit the page a bit, as some of the information (quality of Canon USA download page) was out of date. They have improved in the last couple of months, making it easier to find needed updates. Not perfect, but better.
--John
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I agonized for three months over my decision and went with the Epson 7880 in the end. I am a long time Epson 4000/3000 user and I still use the 4000 for matte color printing.
After a month of light but constant use, the 7880 has yet to have a clog, has run like a clock, and produced stunning prints in both color and B&W with no transport/surface problems, or banding issues. I already have the Eye One Match system.
I have always found Epson customer service to be quite good, but honestly it has been five years since I have needed to talk to them about anything.
I run it on both a MAC using Leopard, and Windows XP and I have no issues.
Have you noticed how few posts there are on this board about problems, concerns, and gripes, other than the ink swap thing with the most current models?
My final decision was based on the "better to deal with the one you know than the one you don't" principle , and so far I'm seriously happy.
Best of luck on your quest.
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I have gotten the impression that the z 3100 is more difficult for getting ease of use then the canon. I am not a techie . I will not be using a ton of papers but will use a few . the canon can be had for 2500 right now and the hp abput 2900 after rebate has anyone gotten there rebate back any rebate issues ? I deeply appreciate all that has been relayed to me both public and private. David PS I am not considering the epson because of the ink switchover problem and they have been known to drink ink .
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WELL after reading as much as I could I am about to buy it. Anyone who has used one think I should buy a canon or epson instead. Thanks David PS I could get by right now with a 17 inch printer but I do not want to take a grand hit later to replace. thanks in advance David
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I haven't used any Canon printers. I've used numerous Epson's. The z3100 is the best printer I've ever used or seen. I print my own photographic work (commercial architecture, some portraiture, and landscape work in color and B&W), and do some giclee' printing for artists. Since I got the z, I've also gotten requests to do photo printing for almost every other photographer in town!
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I have gotten the impression that the z 3100 is more difficult for getting ease of use then the canon. I am not a techie . I will not be using a ton of papers but will use a few . the canon can be had for 2500 right now and the hp abput 2900 after rebate has anyone gotten there rebate back any rebate issues ? I deeply appreciate all that has been relayed to me both public and private. David PS I am not considering the epson because of the ink switchover problem and they have been known to drink ink .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This has actually been a very good discussion on the part of all participants.
Don Kesler makes a good point about the relative lack of complaints about Epson as compared with HP and Canon. It is true here, as elsewhere, that "no news is good news." So Epson seems to have mastered both quality control and customer service. Both Canon and HP need to emulate the example of Epson.
On the other hand, my experience is that HP is trying very hard to quickly resolve any problems and to improve their customer service. John Hollenberg provided the same report for Canon.
However, I would ONLY buy a printer that can use mat black and photo black inks simultaneously -- instant switching -- with no loss of ink. You'll be surprised by how often you switch between papers. Or, to put that a different way, buy a printer that at least has that capability.
The most important consideration is to compare prints from both machines. For many of us, that is impossible. But if you can do it, take your own files and print identical photos on your top two contenders and judge for yourself. As several people have said, all of these printers do a very good job, but each has its own strength on a different part of the color gamut. You might decide that these differences are so subtle as to not matter. For other users, such as those who print fashion, these differences might be the determining factor. (I can see a VERY subtle difference in reds between the 4000 and the 3100 on landscapes. But so subtle it doesn't matter -- for me. But I am not printing anything like a fashion model in bright red dress.)
As far as the price difference, Canon doesn't have a built in spectro and HP does. So I think the price difference is a wash.
Is that price for the Z3100 alone or for the Z3100 that is the package with the APS? I forget what the package is called?? I don't think the APS is essential, but if you can get it in a package deal, you should
Having used a top of the line Xrite device, and it was relatively easy to use, I can only say that it is a bit of a pain. I really appreciate the built in spectro on the HP.
Someone commented that as long as the machine runs its own calibration to stay at a factory level, you can depend on profiles from other sources. That might be true in the future, if the market changes, but not at the present time.
I think the only printers in that category -- with ICC files widely available from paper manufacturers -- are the Epsons that have been on the market for a while. It is very unlikely that paper manufacturers will supply profiles for new printers from Canon or HP for many months after the release of those printers, if ever. (I acknowledge that this varies from one paper maker to another.) So you still need your own spectro or a built in spectro.
Then the final difference is speed of printing. It sounds like Canon may be the speed king. But I am not printing vast quantities where that matters. Will you? We're talking about a difference to one to four minutes to print a 16x20 -- at least that is my best guess.
Finally, I would actually give the HP high marks for ease of use. The software interface is relatively easy to use. It is certainly no more complicated than what I saw with the Epson 4000. I can't compare it to Canon. The number of technical docs available for the HP might sound like it is too complicated or difficult. It is, in fact, just the opposite. The tech documents tell you what you need to know -- what the various driver settings actually do -- so you can change settings when you want to.
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Marty
Your in Washington D.C. I live just outside of D.C. in the suburbs. It would be neat to get together sometime and compare prints from the Z and the Canon. I haven't seen the Z series prints.
I want to add this about profiles. The amount of different media you use is a consideration. If you use alot of different media all the time profiling will be an issue to consider. If you are the type to settle down and use a few certain media types over and over, then you can have a qualified person make really good profiles for you that will most likely go beyond the profiling quality of what's available for less than the cost of eather of these printers.
Regarding Epson posts, I think the real issue is that Epson users don't post here that much. I consider these boards as more of a Canon and HP hang out however there is a large 3800 following here. It seems all the 9880, 7880, 7800 guys are on the groups.yahoo.com Epson wide format list. I think that's why there is little posted about Epson issues here. I would have to say however that Epson makes great products as reliability is concerned.
-Jonathan
This has actually been a very good discussion on the part of all participants.
Don Kesler makes a good point about the relative lack of complaints about Epson as compared with HP and Canon. It is true here, as elsewhere, that "no news is good news." So Epson seems to have mastered both quality control and customer service. Both Canon and HP need to emulate the example of Epson.
On the other hand, my experience is that HP is trying very hard to quickly resolve any problems and to improve their customer service. John Hollenberg provided the same report for Canon.
However, I would ONLY buy a printer that can use mat black and photo black inks simultaneously -- instant switching -- with no loss of ink. You'll be surprised by how often you switch between papers. Or, to put that a different way, buy a printer that at least has that capability.
The most important consideration is to compare prints from both machines. For many of us, that is impossible. But if you can do it, take your own files and print identical photos on your top two contenders and judge for yourself. As several people have said, all of these printers do a very good job, but each has its own strength on a different part of the color gamut. You might decide that these differences are so subtle as to not matter. For other users, such as those who print fashion, these differences might be the determining factor. (I can see a VERY subtle difference in reds between the 4000 and the 3100 on landscapes. But so subtle it doesn't matter -- for me. But I am not printing anything like a fashion model in bright red dress.)
As far as the price difference, Canon doesn't have a built in spectro and HP does. So I think the price difference is a wash.
Is that price for the Z3100 alone or for the Z3100 that is the package with the APS? I forget what the package is called?? I don't think the APS is essential, but if you can get it in a package deal, you should
Having used a top of the line Xrite device, and it was relatively easy to use, I can only say that it is a bit of a pain. I really appreciate the built in spectro on the HP.
Someone commented that as long as the machine runs its own calibration to stay at a factory level, you can depend on profiles from other sources. That might be true in the future, if the market changes, but not at the present time.
I think the only printers in that category -- with ICC files widely available from paper manufacturers -- are the Epsons that have been on the market for a while. It is very unlikely that paper manufacturers will supply profiles for new printers from Canon or HP for many months after the release of those printers, if ever. (I acknowledge that this varies from one paper maker to another.) So you still need your own spectro or a built in spectro.
Then the final difference is speed of printing. It sounds like Canon may be the speed king. But I am not printing vast quantities where that matters. Will you? We're talking about a difference to one to four minutes to print a 16x20 -- at least that is my best guess.
Finally, I would actually give the HP high marks for ease of use. The software interface is relatively easy to use. It is certainly no more complicated than what I saw with the Epson 4000. I can't compare it to Canon. The number of technical docs available for the HP might sound like it is too complicated or difficult. It is, in fact, just the opposite. The tech documents tell you what you need to know -- what the various driver settings actually do -- so you can change settings when you want to.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170291\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Marty
Your in Washington D.C. I live just outside of D.C. in the suburbs. It would be neat to get together sometime and compare prints from the Z and the Canon. I haven't seen the Z series prints.
-Jonathan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I will contact you off line through the forum message system
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For what it's worth-
I've owned a Z3100 since May 2007, after three years with an Epson 7600. I'm delighted with the print quality of the HP printer, the painless (and free!) switching of black inks, the superb black & white output, and the built-in i-one spectro. If I were starting over today, I'd make the same decision.
On the other hand...
The Epson 7600 is built like an anvil, and never breaks. In my rather humid location ink clogs have not been a problem, and the straight-through paper path of the Epsons permits printing on basically anything, including 500 gm/m2 board. They are also the gold standard, with a huge network of third-party support and generic profiles available for them. I must also add that after more than 3 years of use I never had to call Epson's tech support or service even once. If you can stand the obnoxious black-switch issue, and if the newer 7880 is as reliable, it's a great choice.
The Z3100 by comparison is a bit more finicky in its paper handling, it does have issues with roller marks on some of the newer "fiber-gloss" papers, and you may need to pull the heads to clean off the ink overspray after about 6 months of use. Then again, the heads are pretty cheap, and you can pull them yourself without tools to see what's going on. My experience with HP tech support and service has been excellent. Again, I would still go for the Z3100 if I were starting from scratch, as black & white makes up about half my work and this is a terrific printer for monochrome.
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I wish you guys could meet tomm with a print made from one printer print on the other guys printer one color one b&w and let me know if there is a consensus . 2 out of 3 people who have used both like the canon more. I would love to hear more form people who have used both. David
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I wish you guys could meet tomm with a print made from one printer print on the other guys printer one color one b&w and let me know if there is a consensus . 2 out of 3 people who have used both like the canon more. I would love to hear more form people who have used both. David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then you'd have to judge if the people who have both know the nuances of each printer equally and are reporting on the best print possible for both and on what papers.
In reality I think you're just going to have to make a choice. Either one is probably very capable in meeting the needs of most discerning photographers/printers.
And.... what are you going to do if in a few months after your purchase someone comes out with the new king of the hill printer?
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Just so you know I will not be uPgrading for a good 4 to 5 years. as I jsut sold my epson 7600 I bohgt a bout 4 1/5 years ago David I do know it is my decision. Living in Idaho makes things diifficult as I cannot get to deal with these prints on my own. David
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For what it's worth-
I've owned a Z3100 since May 2007, after three years with an Epson 7600. I'm delighted with the print quality of the HP printer, the painless (and free!) switching of black inks, the superb black & white output, and the built-in i-one spectro. If I were starting over today, I'd make the same decision.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not surprised you were happy with the quality ... after all the 9600 is very old technology. While the mk/pk issue is painful for many photographers, at the time of the 9600 there were no options other than an ink switch.
Truly all of the current printers are superior to the Epson 76/9600 printers ... it's really how they compare to each other. The Canon ipfx100 and Epson x880 printers are visually superior to the Canon ipfx000 and the Epson x800 series printers (with the possible exception of the 3800, which is better than the other epson x800 printers)
Personally I wouldn't be surprised if HP doesn't have an upgrade in the works ... after all the z3100 series is getting a little dated, and there is room for improvement.
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Dated?? It's barely a year old!
Jim
Personally I wouldn't be surprised if HP doesn't have an upgrade in the works ... after all the z3100 series is getting a little dated, and there is room for improvement.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Personally I wouldn't be surprised if HP doesn't have an upgrade in the works ... after all the z3100 series is getting a little dated, and there is room for improvement.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And before they come out with a new printer, they need to first release the fix/upgrade for rollers and star wheels on the existing printer. . . .
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Personally I wouldn't be surprised if HP doesn't have an upgrade in the works ... after all the z3100 series is getting a little dated, and there is room for improvement.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd be shocked if they weren't working on it as I suspect Canon and Epson are as well. Development cycles have to be pretty long for for these kinds of printers.
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I'm not surprised you were happy with the quality ... after all the 9600 is very old technology. While the mk/pk issue is painful for many photographers, at the time of the 9600 there were no options other than an ink switch.
Truly all of the current printers are superior to the Epson 76/9600 printers ... [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would take issue with your implication that I don't know what a quality print looks like because my printer was "old technology". I own an Epson 2400, and repeatedly studied output from the 7800 before buying an HP Z3100. To my eye, and in the opinion of some very knowledgeable printers, the 7800/2400 were no better than the 7600 on cotton rag papers, as they use an identical matte black ink, and any minor resolution improvement is lost in dot gain. Certainly the 7800 generation had an improved D-max on semigloss/luster papers and some gamut extension, but the perpetuation of the black swap problem, now into a third generation of Epson large format printers, was the deal-breaker.
I have printed carefully tuned black & white images from all these printers; they each have their quirks, shortcomings and strengths. I have learned to optimize files and to print from the Z3100 with quality that beats anything I got from any of the Epsons through the 7800. That's what works for me. Someone else may get equally good results from "tuned" files on a Canon iPf6100, or an Epson 7880. By all means, try looking at sample prints from each printer you're considering. If you can arrange it, try printing one of your own favorite images on each. But do understand that with practice and experience you can greatly improve the quality you can squeeze out of a particular printer, so this kind of test will only get you so far. Eventually you have to pull the trigger and move on to...you know...actually printing, rather than pixel peeping.
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I'd be shocked if they weren't working on it as I suspect Canon and Epson are as well. Development cycles have to be pretty long for for these kinds of printers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There has been some excellent write ups here on the pros and cons of the z3100. I have had the 44" printer for about 9 months and can honestly say there hasn't been a day that I regretted the purchase. The star wheel issue is real, but has been quite minimal for me with the types of media I have used. The printer adds value to me in the following ways:
Excellent prints, both B&W and Color. Photographic reproducitons on glossy, lustre and satin papers are great. Canvas prints well too. I don't have alot of experience with fine art papers, so I can't comment on that. Other photographers ask me to do their prints, however.
This printer sips ink. Ink purchased in double packs are quite reasonable for cost/unit comparisons to other printers. Print longevity is rated as good as they get. The printer get an A+ from me in this area.
Finally, no clogs! I can't over emphasize this point. The Z3100 maintains itself doing regular self checks. I can let this printer set for weeks, walk up to it and print. If you have ever dealt with clogs and the cost in time and ink clearing them, you can really appreciate this.
Before this printer I owned an Epson 4000. The color prints on the epson were excellent, but a RIP was required for decent B&W. It's downfall for me was constant clogging and significant ink usage (clearing the clogs). Since I don't print on a daily basis, the clogging issue was probably a bigger issue for me than others.
I hope this helps.
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Dated?? It's barely a year old!
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170412\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dated in the sense that HP made the inexplicable decision to use a mechanical paper hold-down system rather than the more paper-friendly and versatile vacuum approach of Canon and Epson, that has definitely limited paper choices for at least some. And who knows what great other great papers will be coming on the scene like the unusable Harmon Fb Al Gloss?
For me, wondering if my $3000 printer can handle a paper I like almost ranks right up there with the persisting black switch problem of Epson. Both are compromises that are hard to explain in latest generation printers.
Which makes the decision easy for me to go with Canon when I go for a 24 incher unless the above "fatal flaws" are successfully addressed by HP and Epson.
I've been a happy iPF5000 user for a year, and as far as I know, the first to have a print head failure "down the road" - there have been two reported on initial installation, I believe. Recently, both of my heads failed within several weeks of each other, after 11 months and about 1200 sq ft printed - both the same lot number. Others have printed as much as 10 times that without failures.
Each time, after a single conversation with a Canon service rep, a new generation $600 printhead was overnighted (with a year's warranty), with a paid shipping label for return of the old part arriving by mail a week or so later. These responses seem typical the past few months of the few real problems that come up in the Wiki.
I've had to do a bit of output tweaking since installing the new heads, but back to baseline after several hours for the papers I use most. I can see the value in the ability to recalibrate back to original status the new iPF-x100 printers have.
Pete
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I'd be shocked if they weren't working on it as I suspect Canon and Epson are as well. Development cycles have to be pretty long for for these kinds of printers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The difference will show what HP has in mind with it's decision on what is considered an update and what is considered an upgrade. The policy on upgrades will say a lot about current users fidelity.
Epson when being the only player (well those in the know did have the 130 for 24") had laughable policies for upgrades. They still do from what I see. They always say this one is the greatest thing making the one you currently own being far off the mark. But , that's what they said when you bought the own you own.
Let's see if HP will make good on the notions that you entered into a platform that can be upgraded, and or updated AFTER release.
I'm hoping to have nice surprises for HP users in this regard. That alone would be an argument that goes beyond , far beyond other's forced marketing schemes.
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Dated?? It's barely a year old!
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170412\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Announced at Photokina in 2006, some units shipping not long after that. I would be very surprised if they didn't announce an updated version at this years Photokina ... maybe even at PMA.
At this point it's an update, not a new machine. There are several things they could tweak (or just fix) which would improve the machine. We're not talking re-invent. And 18-24 months is a pretty normal cycle.
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I'm not goping to get into it to deep, but let's say the following I owned a z3100 and now using a Epson 7880. I think it says it all. I'm very happy about the switch. Would not want to go back.
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Oh please say more. That wasn't a very informative post. Let us know why and what you like about it vs. the Z.
I'm not goping to get into it to deep, but let's say the following I owned a z3100 and now using a Epson 7880. I think it says it all. I'm very happy about the switch. Would not want to go back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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We' ve compared the new Epson 9880, the Caonon IPF9000, and the Z. The color gamut is almost identical in all hues except for the following - the Z has slghtly better green gamut than the other two and it lacks a tiny amount in the red gamut compared to the other two. This is when printing with all the color target content including a smooth greyscale. The yellows are absolutely vibrant in all of these printers. In practice the reds could be intensified if needed, though it is so close only a direct comparison would show the difference. None of them give you dye reds.
Actually the 9600 has better color gamut on matte rag papers than the 9800, and less gamut on glossy media. The 9880 has better reds but we haven't tested the vivid mag. inkset.
The Z has the best dmax of all on glossy media and rag media, especially with monochrome. Since the black inks are not brown as in Epson ( other than the 10880 which is the new fronteer for Epson) the neutrality is better on all media without adding cyan and magenta inks. Epson has a slightly smoother dither pattern. These are our observations from printing the same target. As has been stated early, there are all kinds of ways to tweak these machines in practical usage. They are all pretty close, but the Z is twice as permanent, which is an issue for some. I hate spraying anything with uv sprays.
john
I would take issue with your implication that I don't know what a quality print looks like because my printer was "old technology". I own an Epson 2400, and repeatedly studied output from the 7800 before buying an HP Z3100. To my eye, and in the opinion of some very knowledgeable printers, the 7800/2400 were no better than the 7600 on cotton rag papers, as they use an identical matte black ink, and any minor resolution improvement is lost in dot gain. Certainly the 7800 generation had an improved D-max on semigloss/luster papers and some gamut extension, but the perpetuation of the black swap problem, now into a third generation of Epson large format printers, was the deal-breaker.
I have printed carefully tuned black & white images from all these printers; they each have their quirks, shortcomings and strengths. I have learned to optimize files and to print from the Z3100 with quality that beats anything I got from any of the Epsons through the 7800. That's what works for me. Someone else may get equally good results from "tuned" files on a Canon iPf6100, or an Epson 7880. By all means, try looking at sample prints from each printer you're considering. If you can arrange it, try printing one of your own favorite images on each. But do understand that with practice and experience you can greatly improve the quality you can squeeze out of a particular printer, so this kind of test will only get you so far. Eventually you have to pull the trigger and move on to...you know...actually printing, rather than pixel peeping.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170427\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi Everyone and thank you everyone who took the time to make a case for there printer. I bought the z 3100 today better black dmax more archival prints. Ink prices lower a few words from Charlie Cramer, Jon Canfield, as well as Michaels previous z 3100 reviews.I am prepared for a big learning curve. so anyone who knows alot want to pm me there phone # that would be nice but I am sure I will be calling hp a lot . Thanks Everybody David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
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I think that is a really good point! When Epson improves their inksets they make you buy a new printer, and they will do that yet again this spring when they change heads too as in the 11880. The world is littered with legacy Epson printers.
The interesting thing about the HP heads is that you can pop them out and pop new ones in, so theoretically, if they improve heads, ink delivery, or even the pigments themselves, there is always the possibility that we will be able to "update" as apposed to "upgrade" to a totally new machine. That's a big deal and a super marketing point if they have sense enough to go in that direction.
One of these days these printer manufacuters are going to admit to themselves that they make their money from us on ink and media, not the printers. Two cases in point, you can put K3 inks in Epson K2 printers ( minus the light light K) and you can put Ultrachrome in the Archival 10K Epson printers. Of course Epson didn't help us in that regard, did they, we had to figure it out ourselves.
john
The difference will show what HP has in mind with it's decision on what is considered an update and what is considered an upgrade. The policy on upgrades will say a lot about current users fidelity.
Epson when being the only player (well those in the know did have the 130 for 24") had laughable policies for upgrades. They still do from what I see. They always say this one is the greatest thing making the one you currently own being far off the mark. But , that's what they said when you bought the own you own.
Let's see if HP will make good on the notions that you entered into a platform that can be upgraded, and or updated AFTER release.
I'm hoping to have nice surprises for HP users in this regard. That alone would be an argument that goes beyond , far beyond other's forced marketing schemes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170498\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I have one on the way too - I couldn't resist the rebate! $3881 to my door before rebate
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Hi Everyone and thank you everyone who took the time to make a case for there printer. I bought the z 3100 today better black dmax more archival prints. Ink prices lower a few words from Charlie Cramer, Jon Canfield, as well as Michaels previous z 3100 reviews.I am prepared for a big learning curve. so anyone who knows alot want to pm me there phone # that would be nice but I am sure I will be calling hp a lot . Thanks Everybody David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Start doing some reading at the z3100 wiki - lots of interesting docs and info there.
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Me too. I grabbed it on the very last day. But I expect they will come up with other rebates to replace that one with.
john
Yes, I will contact you off line through the forum message system
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170300\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Me too. I grabbed it on the very last day. But I expect they will come up with other rebates to replace that one with.
john
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If memory serves me well I think this might be the third time that the rebates have "expired".
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Yeah, but they weren't as good or technically required a tradein (proof). The current rebate on them now through April is only $300 as well.
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My rebate was $1,000 cash and $300 in HP paper. I did have to provide info on the printer that I was replacing although no actual trade-in was required. Then again being an early adopter I did have the fun of three firmware and software upgrades.
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My rebate was $1,000 cash and $300 in HP paper. I did have to provide info on the printer that I was replacing although no actual trade-in was required. Then again being an early adopter I did have the fun of three firmware and software upgrades.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171638\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And early adapters who separately bought the printer, and paid separately for the APS, had a few other issues as well with regards to pricing. (Like losing $800.) Covered at great length in other threads.
So those buying now, under the new pricing for the package deal, with a rebate, with with many issues already worked out -- are getting a very good deal.
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Greetings from Ireland,
I have an offer on the table, and as I kickstart into printing/selling my own work I have to test the market, hence I also chose the Z3100.
Fingers crossed that all goes well.
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I finally bought mine as a Demo, following the advice of another photographer on the Leica Forum, who's been running it since 2 weeks now like a dream.
We bought the same machine from the same dealer.
His received instantly from HP UK an amended 12 months warranty reset from date of purchase.
Mine, in Belgium, is still waiting, because some gentleman here, confessing he "does not know nothing about these contracts" decided that, to him, "this machine has been used".
After 10 days of sadly confused phone talks, sending all documents from the reseller proving I'm in my own right, I demanded officially to receive a case reference number, to which this representative told me "I don't see what you will do with that".
I'm escalating the case now, through HP UK, which has been quite responsive, immediately sending me two mails of detailed reply, when HP Belgium never replied to my mails to them.
Unbelievable.
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Canon is much faster, and you don't have to pay for the spectrophotometer. Ours had hardware problems from day one. Go canon.
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Well, other have excellent experience with that machine, here and elsewhere, and I won't change machine every month…
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I bought a Z3100 in mid-January.
The installation went smoothly up to the point that I turned it on. At that point it sat there with the green light on, suggesting that it was ready to go..... Only problem is that it wasn't - there was nothing displayed on the screen.
After contacting HP and being told to unplug the printer - and doing so several times - I gave up. The next day I tried again and, lo & behold, it worked.
Then came 3 days of printing happiness. I made profiles and printed happily until the end of the week.
On Monday when I returned to the office, my display was now black, but the printer still worked - until I needed to change the paper roll. No display=no menu prompts=no way to tell it what type of paper I was using=no working printer.
That was around Jan 22 or so, and I reported it to HP. Over a month later I am still sitting here waiting for some action. At first they couldn't find the part number, then they didn't have it in stock, it was couriered to me on Feb 15th, but hasn't made it here yet.
I wish I had bought an Epson or anything else. I have had a 2400 for the last 4 years and it has never even hiccupped.
Good luck
Chris
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I can't believe you've been patient enough to wait a month without escalating the issue with HP. The HP support manager's name and contact information has been posted here in these forums for circumstances just like you describe.
If its any consolation I think you'll be very happy with the printer when they get it working for you.
My Epsons never hiccuped either but then again they didn't do everything I wanted. That's why I bought the Z3100.
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I can't believe you've been patient enough to wait a month without escalating the issue with HP. The HP support manager's name and contact information has been posted here in these forums for circumstances just like you describe.
If its any consolation I think you'll be very happy with the printer when they get it working for you.
My Epsons never hiccuped either but then again they didn't do everything I wanted. That's why I bought the Z3100.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177317\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you know the belgian support manager ? I would be delighted.
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Do you know the belgian support manager ? I would be delighted.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry.... I don't. Just the name of the USA manager and his contact info. I have put it on the Z3100 wiki under maintenance tips so I wouldn't lose it.
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Sorry.... I don't. Just the name of the USA manager and his contact info. I have put it on the Z3100 wiki under maintenance tips so I wouldn't lose it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was in touch with HP UK which has been responsive, accurate, fast, and confirmed to me I was right.
Since 2 weeks now, I'm waiting for that guy in Belgium to do the same. You just would not believe :
1/ what he told me on the phone
2/ the fact that he never gave me any written reply.
Is that HP or the flea market ?